The Reality Draft - QF: antohan vs BorisDeLeFora

Who will win with players at their peaks?

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
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vs
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................................. Team @antohan ................................................................................. Team @BorisDeLeFora ...................................

Formation change by BorisDeLeFora (antohan 5 - 3 BorisDeLeFora)

Original Fomration:
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antohan changes formation with a substitute (antohan 14 - 5 BorisDeLeFora)

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Fomration change by antohan (antohan 14 - 5 Boris)

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TEAM antohan

TACTICS
I thought long and hard about this one given the reception expected for a back three in the caf these days. The problem ultimately is about tactics and personnel though. I have the better personnel and strength across the board and will dominate this game as Boris' midfield runs around chasing shadows and trying to cover weaknesses.

IN POSSESSION
Nedved against Zambrotta, Boniek against Cole, Kohler and Popescu hardly a match for Vieri and Baggio... In any case, Kohler will have his work cut out with his own job so forget about him covering jack. And at the centre of it Götze, a player they will underrate at their peril as he is precisely in the kind of setup where he will thrive, dribbling, keeping it all free-flowing and showing up unmarked in the box, much like Platini used to with Zibi.

There will be gaps and players beaten everywhere, constantly, and his midfielders will have to be working full time on covering them. In the meantime, Effenberg and Hierro calmly control the game from midfield when needed with their excellent passing, offering a "fallback and redistribute play" option and occasionally (never jointly) making runs that wil wreak havoc as both were excellent from long range.

The defenders do nothing going forward, they keep a high defensive line and support the midfield. Period.

WHEN POSSESSION IS LOST
Considering the pressure they are all under, chances are the ball will just be aimlessly ballooned or lost. All five midfielders have a great work ethic and truly form a five man midfield when it comes to recovery work. Götze presses the outball, while Nedved and Boniek are hard to beat as the outside midfielders tracking back on the flank. They have the stamina and willingness to do that comfortably when required.

It is important to bear in mind the high defensive line here, which has been carefully pieced together. Chilavert was an outstanding sweeper keeper who will likely get the ball straight back to the forwards. Abidal is comfortable and proven as LCB, arguably one of the best in the draft for that. Likewise with Ferrara. And then there's Thiago Silva, who single-handedly held together a defence with a bunch of gung-ho spackers like David Luiz, Marcelo and Dani Alves. The debacle that ensued when he got suspended should be proof enough of his worth and the comfort Thiago will find himself in with Abidal and Ferrara either side of him. Pace is not an issue, no one player from the opposition has a pace advantage bar Klinsmann on Ferrara, who is still quicker than Batistuta or Del Piero. Positionally they are all sound and safe as houses.

When "worrying about the flanks" you should consider where an attacking fullback is typically positioned after an attacking phase: Boniek and Nedved are in a rather similar position, have the pace and discipline to get back, and the high defensive line means the distance to recover is shorter than usual. It really isn't an issue as I'm not facing Robben or Ronaldo.

WHY I WILL WIN
Because his defence can't live with my attack, quite simply, and my defensive setup can handle what he throws at me on the break.

I know, recent games of ours have scarred our fans on the ability of a side to keep up the tempo long enough and hold on to a lead. Never mind, once I get to a comfortable margin I can drop Hierro into a 4-man defence, swap Götze for Lucho and play out the game comfortably with a boring 4-4-2. In fact, I'd do it purely to add another goal or two as he goes all gung-ho trying to close the gap.

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Why not start that way? Because Boris doesn't have the creativity in midfield to put that side under pressure and we would be arguing about a deadlock in a game with zero initiative, with one side not quite being able to counter when the other isn't very good going forward. Boring. It is relevant though to point out the setup allows for a Plan B.

3-1/4-1 this.

PLAYER PROFILES

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TEAM BorisDeLeFora

Please do forgive the Ashley Cole joke.


So, when my team gets the ball, it will play simple fairly direct football. The ball would either be pinged into Batistuta or Kinsmann from deep or spread to Donadoni or a full back out wide to get crosses in.

With the technical quality of Popescu and my midfielders they will be ale to play good passes into feet for my strikers. Yes they may not play incisive through balls all the time but that's not necessarily part of the game plan. Both Batistuta and Klinsman have the technical ability and strength to at a decent level hold the ball up or play simple lay offs out wide or for Robson or to a lesser extent Tigana to get shots off.

Donadoni's crossing ability in particular is key to my side, because any decent ball into the box and the aerial ability and movement of my strikers will cause havoc.

In terms of shape the side is obviously a bit lopsided, but Abidal wasn't a rampaging attacking full back. Klinsmann's work rate will help to an extent but the main key is Tigana's athleticism an defensive ability. He will be playing as a right sided cm and will us his pace to get out to the wing to support Zambrotta when required.
 
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What's cole doing at his own cornerflag? Did he watch too much footage of Boniek and starts the game already confused where he might pop up?
 
For some reason I had assumed 3-5-2 referred to the use of wingbacks. EAP clarified it applied to what, quite clearly, is a 3-5-2 so I start two votes down.

Didn't change tactics because:

1) It wouldn't be fair on Boris, my cock up.

2) You don't change your best setup for a couple of votes in handicap. I'm confident his back four can't keep up with my frontline.
 
Balu said:
What's cole doing at his own cornerflag? Did he watch too much footage of Boniek and starts the game already confused where he might pop up?
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It's a reference to that Roma photo where his positioning is completely random.
 
Sorry anto but I think it's not fair how you've done your formation. It's a lot more appealing and I don't think Boris can do the same.

A.Cole :lol:
 
Wherever Cole chooses to play, the fact remains Boniek has him well beaten. Nedved will own Zambrotta. Vieri will torment Popescu all game long and Kohler will have his work cut out with Baggio.

Cerezo has a massive job trying to keep up with Götze, a player far more dynamic than he is used to facing in his days. And upon recovery, Götze will press him hard and not let him get into his groove.

Every time I beat them, there's no cover available, bar from the other two midfielders who will have to keep running around like headless chicken in panic mode, all the while leaving Hierro and Effenberg to calmly keep things tidy in midfield and make the occasional untracked run.

Goals galore.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Sorry anto but I think it's not fair how you've done your formation. It's a lot more appealing and I don't think Boris can do the same.

A.Cole :lol:
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Why not? All you need is Microsoft Powerpoint. I've put more work on it, as with the tactics, why should that count against me?
 
While we wait for the rest, please DO WATCH THIS CLIP

I've no idea why Effenberg (aka Gordon Ramsey) is largely regarded as a DM destroyer, maybe it's just down to him being an angry German who was immense in the tackle. He was phenomenal, a complete midfielder and, while he didn't run/dictate games as Scholes' level, his passing was comparable in the way it sliced through defences.

 
That's a fantastic formation pic, anto - kudos!

Not sure about Boris' set-up here, to be honest. Horses for courses and all that. I don't think Donadoni on the left and Tigana in that role is terrible by any means - but it ain't the most obvious way to utilize these players and I'm not sure I get the logic behind it. It seems like something you'd do out of necessity more than anything - but is it necessary?

Have to go out for a while now - but will be back later this evening to vote.
 
Sorry lads, much busier in work that I expected, will have to keep it brief.

Anyhow, don't think the handicap should stand, I took it as a standard 3-5-2 with wing backs, as I assume Anto did.

Anto has fantastic attacking players but I think it's unreasonable to suggest that 4 individual battles mean each of my defenders get perpetually destroyed. I have two full backs who have played in strong well organised defenses in the past, and both will get cover from a highly defensively capable midfield. With the way his side are set up Nedved and Boniek get no support on the overlap. Thus my full backs will be able to merely hold up the play for as long as they can and by then the athleticism of Robson or Tigana will catch up and allow them to double mark if necessary.

Effenberg and Hierro will see a lot of the ball but they will both be facing a fairly deep four with three midfielders tight in front of them. I can afford to leave Donadoni slightly high and allow Klinsmann fill a gap slightly deeper without the ball, in between both of anto's midfielders, because Farrara and Abidal are going nowhere. Thus with Klinsmann there they won't be swanning around having it all their own way.
 
Giant heads and Cole :lol:
Actually, brilliant from antohan - it's great that you can see who's on the bench without checking in the main thread
 
Much will depend on Donadoni today. The way I interpret it is him operating as the source of attacking width, swapping flanks and targeting the space in the wide areas. With a solid spine and 4-3-3 behind him, he will have that freedom and will be found particularly through Popescu's delivery. Whether he can get the better of Abidal and Ferrara in these areas is the key. He's certainly good enough.
 
So tempted to vote for anto purely for his teamsheet, a thing of beauty. Always trying something new, gotta love him.

I'll be fair though and read through the tactics and arguments before I make my decision
 
This is where I was concerned about the formation punishment. One man's 3-5-2 is another's 3-2-3-2. My take on a 3-5-2 would be wing-backs essentially operating somewhere between the defensive and central midfield line. This is more 3-3-4 if we're taking it down to brass tacks.
 
BorisDeLeFora said:
Anyhow, don't think the handicap should stand, I took it as a standard 3-5-2 with wing backs, as I assume Anto did.
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Fair dos mate, but rules are rules, I was surprised when he told me as I had it noted as "wingbacks or diamond".

Anto has fantastic attacking players but I think it's unreasonable to suggest that 4 individual battles mean each of my defenders get perpetually destroyed. I have two full backs who have played in strong well organised defenses in the past, and both will get cover from a highly defensively capable midfield. With the way his side are set up Nedved and Boniek get no support on the overlap. Thus my full backs will be able to merely hold up the play for as long as they can and by then the athleticism of Robson or Tigana will catch up and allow them to double mark if necessary.
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Easier said than done. But that's the point though, your midfielders end up defending deep.

Effenberg and Hierro will see a lot of the ball but they will both be facing a fairly deep four with three midfielders tight in front of them.
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Not really, since more often than not at least one is stuck on a wing, while Cerezo has to mind Götze (or else it's three of mine against two of yours). They will comfortably distribute and remain available for a pass back to midfield if someone has run into trouble/got to a dead end. Rinse and repeat until BOOM! breakthrough.

I can afford to leave Donadoni slightly high and allow Klinsmann fill a gap slightly deeper without the ball, in between both of anto's midfielders, because Farrara and Abidal are going nowhere. Thus with Klinsmann there they won't be swanning around having it all their own way.
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Excellent, the forward with most pace and acceleration stuck in a midfield "battle" he won't add much to. Result!
 
I´d lineup Antohan´s player slightly different.

Vieri
----------------Baggio---------------------Boniek
Nedved------- Götze --------------
Effenberg - Hierro
Abidal - T. Silva --------Ferrara
​


still thats only a detail and I like his approach.
 
Impressed with the fit of Anto's teams to the prescribed roles: Chilavert doesn't need full-backs to play football. Abidal and Ferrara are perfect centre-half-cum-full-backs. Effenberg and Hierro are the ideal pair of disciplined and imposing bastards you want in a top-heavy set-up. As are Boniek and Nedved as the kind of industrious wide-men who will make a legitimate job of covering back while offering plenty going forward. Baggio and Vieri dovetail beautifully and the only one I'm not entirely enamoured with is Gotze, but 10/11 ain't bad at all.
 
Gio said:
This is where I was concerned about the formation punishment. One man's 3-5-2 is another's 3-2-3-2. My take on a 3-5-2 would be wing-backs essentially operating somewhere between the defensive and central midfield line. This is more 3-3-4 if we're taking it down to brass tacks.
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Nah, Nedved and Boniek are midfielders and I'm relying on them for a defensive job so it's fair to say it's three defenders, five midfielders and two forwards.

I had a similar issue in the last round re: WM. I could theoretically play WM (in that case with Boniek-Vieri-Ljungberg, then Raúl-Götze behind) but it didn't feel right to claim the bonus points while also arguing Ljungberg and Boniek would work the flanks. Wingforwards in WMs didn't do it that much or efffectively enough, MMs were specifically designed with that in mind and pulling the WFs deeper.

In the end I never got to play the game though :annoyed:
 
PedroMendez said:
I´d lineup Antohan´s player slightly different.

Vieri
----------------Baggio---------------------Boniek
Nedved------- Götze --------------
Effenberg - Hierro
Abidal - T. Silva --------Ferrara
​


still thats only a detail and I like his approach.
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The reason I played Baggio on the right was to give a bit more freedom to Boniek, and also that I expected Donadoni to start on that side so Baggio could always drop a bit deeper on that side and work the wide areas if Boniek was entertained elsewhere. As you say, it's largely details though.
 
I think both teams will definitely score. Antohan's goal threat is incredible with these wingers against Cole and Zambrotta, plus Baggio while on the other end I think Batistuta and Klinsmann will have a good time against that back 3, and with no real support from the wings on defense anto will concede too, I'm sure of it. Donadoni's cross to Klinsmann or Batigol seems likely.


I'm not too sure about Gotze here, why not play Luis Enrique? Gotze and Baggio seem pretty similar to me in the areas they'll play, whereas Lucho adds more(needed) defensive work rate while not stepping on Baggio's toes in the attack, and giving Baggio the freedom to be Baggio and drift all over the place..
 
Gio said:
This is where I was concerned about the formation punishment. One man's 3-5-2 is another's 3-2-3-2. My take on a 3-5-2 would be wing-backs essentially operating somewhere between the defensive and central midfield line. This is more 3-3-4 if we're taking it down to brass tacks.
Click to expand...

I would argue that 3-2-3-2 is still a variation of a 3-5-2. The point being there are 5 midfielders, irrespecive of how you utilize them. I would have argued that wingbacks are more confusing as they are a hybrid and diffficult to classify either as defenders or midfielders, but here Hierro and Effenberg are purely midfielders as are Boniek, Nedved and Goetze.
 
Gio said:
Impressed with the fit of Anto's teams to the prescribed roles: Chilavert doesn't need full-backs to play football. Abidal and Ferrara are perfect centre-half-cum-full-backs. Effenberg and Hierro are the ideal pair of disciplined and imposing bastards you want in a top-heavy set-up. As are Boniek and Nedved as the kind of industrious wide-men who will make a legitimate job of covering back while offering plenty going forward. Baggio and Vieri dovetail beautifully and the only one I'm not entirely enamoured with is Gotze, but 10/11 ain't bad at all.
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I think Götze would work extremely well here. I could have given the wide left industrious role to Lucho and play nedved centrally but I really do think he is perfect there in a Hidegkutti role showing up in the box as a false nine of sorts. I actually expect him to be a bit like the false 9 Platini that Boniek assisted regularly and so effectively, something which wasn't really in the cards with Nedved playing centrally.

As with all young players, he is difficult to gage, but it wasn't a decision I made forcibly but consciously. And you know how much I rate Lucho!

Once Raúl is back it's a different cup of tea though. Raúl-Vieri upfront with Baggio central :drool:

It should also be noted Baggio-Vieri played together for club and country. Vieri-Nedved at Lazio. They'll know how to fully exploit his considerable strengths as a centreforward.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I would argue that 3-2-3-2 is still a variation of a 3-5-2. The point being there are 5 midfielders, irrespecive of how you utilize them. I would have argued that wingbacks are more confusing as they are a hybrid and diffficult to classify either as defenders or midfielders, but here Hierro and Effenberg are purely midfielders as are Boniek, Nedved and Goetze.
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Fair enough, I imagine any disadvantage for Anto will be wiped out by his funky formation graphic.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
with no real support from the wings on defense anto will concede
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Seriously? Boniek and Nedved don't support the flanks effectively? What have you been smoking? He has a single winger, who will be starting his runs from deep given my high defensive line, on the side Boniek is positioned (Boniek being considerably faster than Donadoni) and with both my outside CBs being extremely competent fullbacks.

Let's put it this way, it is more likely Ferrara will shepherd Donadoni down the flank long enough to get support from Boniek and dispossess him than that one of Zambrotta ro Cole can hold up Nedved/Boniek waiting for support from Tigana/Robbo.

I'm not too sure about Gotze here, why not play Luis Enrique? Gotze and Baggio seem pretty similar to me in the areas they'll play, whereas Lucho adds more(needed) defensive work rate while not stepping on Baggio's toes in the attack, and giving Baggio the freedom to be Baggio and drift all over the place..
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See above. It's an option I considered, but I'll stick to Götze, I think he would have a fine game here. As with any game of football, if he weren't I could always sub him, it sure isn't a gamble that can prove costly but the upside if it pays off is massive. I think he'll score, let alone have a good game.
 
antohan said:
Seriously? Boniek and Nedved don't support the flanks effectively? What have you been smoking? He has a single winger, who will be starting his runs from deep given my high defensive line, on the side Boniek is positioned (Boniek being considerably faster than Donadoni) and with both my outside CBs being extremely competent fullbacks.

Let's put it this way, it is more likely Ferrara will shepherd Donadoni down the flank long enough to get support from Boniek and dispossess him than that one of Zambrotta ro Cole can hold up Nedved/Boniek waiting for support from Tigana/Robbo.



See above. It's an option I considered, but I'll stick to Götze, I think he would have a fine game here. As with any game of football, if he weren't I could always sub him, it sure isn't a gamble that can prove costly but the upside if it pays off is massive. I think he'll score, let alone have a good game.
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Chill mate. Nedved and Boniek have great work rate but I normally see it as an advantage for covering for a full back, limiting them to being wing backs doesn't do you good not offensively nor defensively imo.
 
At least @crappycraperson can't complain about Götze's form anymore, he has been brilliant in the past 5 games and is our top scorer so far this season.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Chill mate. Nedved and Boniek have great work rate but I normally see it as an advantage for covering for a full back, limiting them to being wing backs doesn't do you good not offensively nor defensively imo.
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They aren't wingbacks, if I wanted wingbacks I would have got wingbacks. The point, as was with the Mighty Magyars, is that you plan to dominate games and therefore play attacking players who can influence things in the final third BUT ALSO have the discipline and workrate to get back and defend their flanks. That's what Czibor did, in much the same way Italians chose to have a Facchetti being a defender but doing a lot of attacking, Hungary chose (and I choose here, and pick accordingly) to play attackers who can do much defending.

Crucially, as with the Magyars, you play a high defensive line, so the starting point for any winger attacking at the other end is not miles away from where your own one actually is (or where an attacking fullback would be, in fairness). Also, the midfield and defensive line are very close so, for example, if Boniek were tied up in the box and unlikely to provide much support Hierro will know this and prioritise dropping into the defence as cover so Ferrara can really commit to the flank if needs be.

I really don't want to get into the silliness of X gets Y, Y gets Z and all that, but you are overlooking what tremendous players these guys were, they do have the intelligence to perceive how play is shaping up and act accordingly and not following some pre-defined rulebook. E.g. in the example above Boniek would see Hierro has gone to cover Ferrara in defence and will therefore track Robbo instead. It's not rocket science, it's what intelligent industrious players do.
 
Best set of team sheets I've seen the Cole thing is quality :lol: and Anto.. beautiful. Boris... how do you intend on making Klinnsman and Batistuta work?
 
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