The optimistic viewpoint....

Chumpsbechumps

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Aug 12, 2018
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Glass half full or empyt seems to be the consensus at the moment.

I really feel that if we can navigate the next 6 weeks (even up/down sh*te) in a reasonable fashion, that our manager/team being able to get through such a tough time could be the making of them and the manager.

People can say "sack the manager" based on the results/performances and under normal circumstances I would agree, but you just cant say that circumstances at United have been normal. You cant compare what other top managers are navigating, because they only suffer one or two issues at any given time.

So I am gonna be optimistic and look at what I see as a potentially exciting transformation:

Champions League

If we can beat Gala by two goals or more I think we finish ahead of them (head for head) if we happen to finish on same points. It would mean a draw or better with Bayern means they cant finish ahead of us. Assuming Gala dont lose to Copenhagan, we go through. Remarkably, we could potentially qualify with 6 points if we beat Gala, Bayern beat Copehagan and Gala/Copehagan Draw.

League

It looks like teams are gonna drops points everywhere, so if we can get through to Janaury there or thereabouts, I am really excited about the second half of the season. We have actually seen United go through savage runs under ETH and other managers, we just need a break, we just need forwards to get goals and the rest will sort itself out.

A Everton
A Newcastle
H Chelsea
H Bournmouth
A Liverpool
A West Ham
H Villa
A Forrest

20 Games will of been played after these games. We are currently on 21 points after 12.

After 20 games:
2020/21 Top team on 44 points (city)
2021/22 2nd place was on 44 points (city on 50)
2022/23 2nd place was on 45 points (Arsenal on 50)

So if we can get 24 points in the next 8 games, based on last 3 seasons we would be there or thereabouts near second. On paper Chelsea (who are looking better) and Liverpool are the two "top tier teams". Newcastles injurys seem to be affecting them. the other games, on paper are winnable.

Ok so, the elephant in the room is how we are playing and squeezing out 1-0s. I suppose I guess if we can even squeeze out 6/7 wins (1-0s), it leaves us in a decent spot going into the second half of the season with most of our squad hopefully back fit. When they come back in and we are still somewhat in a decent spot I think that can help build some hope and momentum. I suppose I feel that our pain of early season, but our squad hanging in there, could really help harness a tough mentality that could really give us a springboard after christmas. I mean , we have been sh*t , so what can happen if we actually play well ?

( Ref: https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2021-2022-spieltag/20/ )

To be honest, I want to be either in CL or EL after Christmas, because I honestly think the team overcoming this period with the manager is the absolute best outcome for United fans. I think a manager surviving this along with his players can only make them both stronger and the relationship stronger. Yeh its not easy, but while sometimes sacking a manager is the right call, I think there are times when the right call is the hard one.

I just want to see what a fully fit , fully functioning ETH team can do, as I feel we have only seen snippets. If he fails, I would rather he has had a good bite at it, where there are no dramas or injuries or reasons ("excuses") that we can point to as to why things arent working out. I just feel for many reasons we havent gotten the best from our manager and I would rather if we do part ways that it was because he failed when all things were equal.

I am kind of excited at the prospect of the team squeezing out things and eventually playing themselves into form. I get it can go the exact opposite way, but I have ZERO appetite for a replacement manager.
 
I think the champions league is done unfortunately. We've left ourselves with too much to do and even if we beat galatasaray we're going to end up relying on munich playing a weakened team, which will probably still be stronger.

I share some optimism about the league though. We are surely as low as we can go in terms of form and the freakish run of attackers not scoring, and have played the first third of the season almost entirely without our main defenders. Yet we have the same number of clean sheets as city, conceding only 4 more than them. We are still very much in touch for the top 4 which is the realistic aim for the season, and I am hoping that Ratcliffe coming in will want to show some football intent with a january signing. Maybe nothing major, but a shot in the arm.

We need to just hang in there in the coming weeks, beating everton and a draw at st james, would set us up well for 2 home games against chelsea and bournemouth. A reasonably number of points from those 12 and we'll be in the mix by the time players are returning.
 
Aye, feels like time to hold our breath and see if ETH can manage the squad to improve performances to the end of the season, that is his job, he has to get the players performing.

If the forwards start taking chances the atmosphere will completely change.

The fact Maguire has turned it round is something of a vindication of ETH's man management considering the hysteria in the media around it.
 
If he stays another 3 years maybe ETH could be SAF...

When you say - if we get "24 points in the next 8 games" you mean, win them all right?

Really, no optimism from me at all, this is all wishful thinking.
 
I feel Liverpool away is the defining fixture coming up.

Another collapse at Anfield and I think it's too difficult for ten Hag to come back from that.

I dont think it should come down to a single result, but it likely will.
 
Nickosaur said:
I feel Liverpool away is the defining fixture coming up.

Another collapse at Anfield and I think it's too difficult for ten Hag to come back from that.

I dont think it should come down to a single result, but it likely will.
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As long as we keep the loss under 3-0 it's an ok result. I actually felt the 3-0 loss was ok against City, tells you how highly I think of this team and ETH against top teams. I wouldn't be able to handle another trashing though.
 
Arguably the big winners at the wknd. Climbed the table and miraculously only 7 pts behind city.

im not suggesting for a minute we’ll be competing for the title, but, if the prem was based on last 5 games…we’d be top…which is mental given how much of a struggle it all seems to be recently
 
FrenchRed said:
If he stays another 3 years maybe ETH could be SAF...

When you say - if we get "24 points in the next 8 games" you mean, win them all right?

Really, no optimism from me at all, this is all wishful thinking.
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I had to re-read that bit as well.
 
The next 7 games will define the season and probably even the future of ETH. With Jim coming in, he wouldn't want any bad PR and he will make a statement by sacking the manager if things are bad.

However if we can navigate it reasonably well, think we will be setup nicely for second half. I am expecting couple of signings in Jan and we will do well in later part of the season.

Everton A - win
Newcastle A - loss
Chelsea home - Draw
Bournemouth H - win
Liverpool A - loss
West Ham A - draw
Villa H - Draw
Forest A - win

12 from a possible 24. That would be minimum we should expect. That will put us at 33 from 20 games at 1.6 ppg. Not bad considering how diabolical we are now.
 
With the injuries we have I can only see us winning half the upcoming league games at best. Probably only 2 or 3 where I wouldn't be surprised by a win and then just hoping we squeeze one out from somewhere.

ETH I have some sympathy towards with the defensive injuries and awful form from our forwards (Hojlund aside), but he's compounded the problems by butchering his own midfield to the point it is now literally just McTominay...and he's so stubborn he still doesn't seem to have accepted he's got this wrong, which ultimately at this point I think costs him his job, because there's no way this team is good enough to carry him through making the same mistakes over and over.

You look at our starting line up atm and it looks pretty mid table. The manager needs to be getting them to perform above the sum of their parts, not doing stuff that appears to drag them well below it.
 
If we were to win our next 2 in the league (Everton A and Newcastle A) then we’d bizarrely be right back in the thick of things - probably 5ish points off top and a couple of points off top 4. That would be really positive given all the issues we’ve had.

Win the two games after that (Chelsea H, Bournemouth H) then we’ll be in the top 4.

Unfortunately I don’t see us winning the next 2. Newcastle aren’t in the best form and Everton are always beatable but we’ve just not been at the races this season

In Europe I think if we win away at Galatasaray then we’ll qualify. Again not massively confident but maybe 50-50. If we drop into the Europa it’s a more realistic chance of a trophy.
 
hobbers said:
Nothing like vindication. Manager wanted to sell him, and now he's playing ok against Sheffield and Luton.
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The fact he wanted to sell him is irrelevant, the amount of negativity that has been heaped onto ETH and Maguire regarding his position in the first XI was ridiculous and Maguire is now putting in performances, I didn't suggest he was a world-beater just that it was a positive outcome from a situation that appeared lost...
 
Nickosaur said:
I feel Liverpool away is the defining fixture coming up.

Another collapse at Anfield and I think it's too difficult for ten Hag to come back from that.

I dont think it should come down to a single result, but it likely will.
Click to expand...

Yeah I normally don't love judging of solo results, but if he goes and gets tonked at Anfield again you can't let him back on the bus. Getting obliterated by our rivals should never be just some normal thing.
 
cant be arsed to project possible points etc but Id say that being in the Top 4 race and still a 50/50 chance of CL qualification - despite all the injuries, horrific VAR calls and off field issues - is something to be optimistic about

Main problem is that the injury list doesnt seem to be getting any better with fresh concerns over Eriksen and Hojlund
 
Puskas_007 said:
Aye, feels like time to hold our breath and see if ETH can manage the squad to improve performances to the end of the season, that is his job, he has to get the players performing.

If the forwards start taking chances the atmosphere will completely change.

The fact Maguire has turned it round is something of a vindication of ETH's man management considering the hysteria in the media around it.
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That was nothing compared to the hysteria in the fanbase
 
The negative outlook is obviously hysteria. United can put together a run and be in the mix in the top 4.

The main issue is the performances. We have served up shit on a stick in every single game this season. There hasn’t been a single game of respite. Then when you consider we’re on the verge of being eliminated by Galatasaray and Copenhagen, that is just horrific failure. Ten Hag at that point needs to massively improve both performance and results immediately. You can be optimistic about one of those things improving, as results in the league have, but then you need to be realistic.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
Glass half full or empyt seems to be the consensus at the moment.

I really feel that if we can navigate the next 6 weeks (even up/down sh*te) in a reasonable fashion, that our manager/team being able to get through such a tough time could be the making of them and the manager.

People can say "sack the manager" based on the results/performances and under normal circumstances I would agree, but you just cant say that circumstances at United have been normal. You cant compare what other top managers are navigating, because they only suffer one or two issues at any given time.

So I am gonna be optimistic and look at what I see as a potentially exciting transformation:

Champions League

If we can beat Gala by two goals or more I think we finish ahead of them (head for head) if we happen to finish on same points. It would mean a draw or better with Bayern means they cant finish ahead of us. Assuming Gala dont lose to Copenhagan, we go through. Remarkably, we could potentially qualify with 6 points if we beat Gala, Bayern beat Copehagan and Gala/Copehagan Draw.

League

It looks like teams are gonna drops points everywhere, so if we can get through to Janaury there or thereabouts, I am really excited about the second half of the season. We have actually seen United go through savage runs under ETH and other managers, we just need a break, we just need forwards to get goals and the rest will sort itself out.

A Everton
A Newcastle
H Chelsea
H Bournmouth
A Liverpool
A West Ham
H Villa
A Forrest

20 Games will of been played after these games. We are currently on 21 points after 12.

After 20 games:
2020/21 Top team on 44 points (city)
2021/22 2nd place was on 44 points (city on 50)
2022/23 2nd place was on 45 points (Arsenal on 50)

So if we can get 24 points in the next 8 games, based on last 3 seasons we would be there or thereabouts near second. On paper Chelsea (who are looking better) and Liverpool are the two "top tier teams". Newcastles injurys seem to be affecting them. the other games, on paper are winnable.

Ok so, the elephant in the room is how we are playing and squeezing out 1-0s. I suppose I guess if we can even squeeze out 6/7 wins (1-0s), it leaves us in a decent spot going into the second half of the season with most of our squad hopefully back fit. When they come back in and we are still somewhat in a decent spot I think that can help build some hope and momentum. I suppose I feel that our pain of early season, but our squad hanging in there, could really help harness a tough mentality that could really give us a springboard after christmas. I mean , we have been sh*t , so what can happen if we actually play well ?

( Ref: https://www.worldfootball.net/schedule/eng-premier-league-2021-2022-spieltag/20/ )

To be honest, I want to be either in CL or EL after Christmas, because I honestly think the team overcoming this period with the manager is the absolute best outcome for United fans. I think a manager surviving this along with his players can only make them both stronger and the relationship stronger. Yeh its not easy, but while sometimes sacking a manager is the right call, I think there are times when the right call is the hard one.

I just want to see what a fully fit , fully functioning ETH team can do, as I feel we have only seen snippets. If he fails, I would rather he has had a good bite at it, where there are no dramas or injuries or reasons ("excuses") that we can point to as to why things arent working out. I just feel for many reasons we havent gotten the best from our manager and I would rather if we do part ways that it was because he failed when all things were equal.

I am kind of excited at the prospect of the team squeezing out things and eventually playing themselves into form. I get it can go the exact opposite way, but I have ZERO appetite for a replacement manager.
Click to expand...

The glass is neither half full or half empty - it's got suspiciously wrong-looking liquid in it.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Yeah I normally don't love judging of solo results, but if he goes and gets tonked at Anfield again you can't let him back on the bus. Getting obliterated by our rivals should never be just some normal thing.
Click to expand...
Depends on the manner of defeat, if it was the same manner as last season then yeah he'll be gone, but a couple of dodgy VAR decisions and a couple of massive deflections for goals nope and TBH either could happen
 
What I see is us crashing out of the CL but somehow smash and grabbing top four. We’ve been horrifying but somehow, some way, snatching wins in the PL. we may not deserve it, but the fourth spot is there and I think we can get it done.
 
Red in STL said:
Depends on the manner of defeat, if it was the same manner as last season then yeah he'll be gone, but a couple of dodgy VAR decisions and a couple of massive deflections for goals nope and TBH either could happen
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I mean even if it's two BS VAR pens and two deflections, 4-0 is 4-0 unless it's the worlds strangest game where we dominate and create all of the best chances. But I obviously don't see that happening
 
lex talionis said:
What I see is us crashing out of the CL but somehow smash and grabbing top four. We’ve been horrifying but somehow, some way, snatching wins in the PL. we may not deserve it, but the fourth spot is there and I think we can get it done.
Click to expand...

Problem is we still don't create/score enough and the defensive spine isn't rock solid like it was last year with Casemiro/Varane/Martinez. I don't see which team currently in the top 4 makes way for us unless Spurs completely fall apart in an injury crisis.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I mean even if it's two BS VAR pens and two deflections, 4-0 is 4-0 unless it's the worlds strangest game where we dominate and create all of the best chances. But I obviously don't see that happening
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The Liverpool game wont make or break ETH on its own , I don’t understand why you are looking that far ahead TBH.

Whether the Pool game is 1-0 or 6-0, the games leading up to it will determine how important it is to put on any sort of show.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I mean even if it's two BS VAR pens and two deflections, 4-0 is 4-0 unless it's the worlds strangest game where we dominate and create all of the best chances. But I obviously don't see that happening
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I don't either but if it did happen then sacking a manager based on that result would be stupid
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
The Liverpool game wont make or break ETH on its own , I don’t understand why you are looking that far ahead TBH.

Whether the Pool game is 1-0 or 6-0, the games leading up to it will determine how important it is to put on any sort of show.
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Are we really asking for too much to not get beaten fecking 6-0 AGAIN?

Like my goodness where are our standards at at this point. I was just answering a hypothetical but honestly if we lose in that fashion again he should rightfully be sacked, no manager is afforded that many Embarassing beatdowns anywher in football much less one that’s already struggling.
 
Just remember when being critical of our team and making comparisons to others to be optimistic.

Arsenal haven't won the title for 20 years and have never won the UCL.
Liverpool have won one league title in the last 33 years.
Spurs and Newcastle have won next to nothing for 50 years.
Chelsea last won the league 7 years ago.

It might not be great but we will overcome!
 
I mean, this was supposed to be our easy stretch of games and we've laboured through them and lost in the CL..

That said, the team are starting to get into a rhythm and I hope we can somehow qualify for the CL next season though. That's incredibly important for yet another rebuild.
 
There's potential to start putting these chances away. Hojlund scored a lot in the CL and really should've had one against Luton, a good chance in front of goal that flashed across and good save. Garnacho took too much time, as did Rashford.

Biggest problem is while I can see ETH and the players getting better, if we're still getting hammered away and show no fight against City Pool or other top 6 teams then it might be time to change in the summer. This poor form goes back to Feb last season where we had players available.
 
The only positive is that we've got more points than performances have deserved in the league. We've had a pretty easy start playing the bottom 6 in the first 12 games with harder games to come.

Eventually the points will catch up with performances and we'll drift further towards mid table. Lack of goals will kill us and there's no sign of it improving.

We're already done in the CL, likely to not even make the Europa.
 
If we get 15 points from the next 8 games, we should be very happy. That will mean we've beaten one of Villa, Newcastle, Chelsea and the scousers. All of whom are far better teams at the moment.
 
We're out of the CL, there is no way this team can get a result away to galatasary, let alone muster a draw to Bayern.

These runs of PL fixtures:
A Everton
A Newcastle
H Chelsea
H Bournmouth
A Liverpool
A West Ham

I'd be very surprised if we get more than 6 points.

Edit: I should add the reason why I'm so pessimistic, it's not just based on our current form but none of our key Injured players are near to returning and we're losing more players to injury (Erikson and Hojlund).
 
Apparently we are the most in form team in the Premier league at present in last 6 games. Seems impossible to countenance.
 
Ayoba said:
We're out of the CL, there is no way this team can get a result away to galatasary, let alone muster a draw to Bayern.

These runs of PL fixtures:
A Everton
A Newcastle
H Chelsea
H Bournmouth
A Liverpool
A West Ham

I'd be very surprised if we get more than 6 points.

Edit: I should add the reason why I'm so pessimistic, it's not just based on our current form but none of our key Injured players are near to returning and we're losing more players to injury (Erikson and Hojlund).
Click to expand...
Should be getting 10-12 points there. Everton win, Newcaste win, Chelsea win at home, Bournemouth win at home, Liverpool thrasing at Anfield loss, West Ham away draw or win.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Are we really asking for too much to not get beaten fecking 6-0 AGAIN?

Like my goodness where are our standards at at this point. I was just answering a hypothetical but honestly if we lose in that fashion again he should rightfully be sacked, no manager is afforded that many Embarassing beatdowns anywher in football much less one that’s already struggling.
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United lost 6-1 to City at home under Ferguson, we even got thumped 5-0 by Newcastle when we were champions (think we lost 6-3 to Southampton around the same time). One off thumpings in a season dont mean anything if you aren’t challanging for the league and seldom does goal difference affect top 4 chances.

Expecting not to be thumped is not unreasonable but I’d rather see consistency and wobbles like thrashings. It’s not to say we can’t have both in the long run but avoiding thrashing’s really isn’t a priority right now.

Right now, I’d rather we weren’t thumped but I don’t see it as important as grinding out wins and building some momentum.
 
If you said to anyone sane at the start of the season, we would have the unbelievable amount of injuries we have had + the off field drama of Antony + MG and said you will be 7 points off 1st and 4 points of CL places after 12 games, most would probably have taken it. What has been more of a surprise/negative isn't necessarily the points total, it is how we've been playing but then you have to go back to the injuries and ask how much are they a factor - hopefully with more players returning after the internationals we will see better performances.

Champions League we've left ourselves a fool's hope of going through. You have to say we've been really hard done by with some reffing decisions but we haven't been good enough in most games. You can't really expect to go through the groups when you basically concede a penalty every game and have reds in multiple games against the weaker teams. Sadly I think this one is done.
 
There are 2 main arguments which give me some hope

a- United are finally focusing on the backroom staff. We're not talking here about some Woodward's pet who keeps getting promoted despite proving nothing but serious people like Mitchell and Blanc.
b- We're finally shifting away from buying 30 year old something players who had won everything and therefore lack the hunger and the stamina to give United their all. Ronaldo left while the likes of Varane and Casemiro seem on the way out
 
The hilarious and ridiculous thing with the champions league is that we could technically qualify with 6 points.

If we beat Gala by 2 or more goals and Copenhagen/Gala drew final game we’d qualify in second spot even if we lost to Bayern.

It’s nuts when you think about it and uninspiring but it’s the kind of thing that could build momentum ala pool when they squeezed out of an easy group in the last minute of the final game in the 00s and went on to win it.

I won’t be putting money on this and believe it’s still very unlikely, but I just find this odd possibility, well a bit odd.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
United lost 6-1 to City at home under Ferguson, we even got thumped 5-0 by Newcastle when we were champions (think we lost 6-3 to Southampton around the same time). One off thumpings in a season dont mean anything if you aren’t challanging for the league and seldom does goal difference affect top 4 chances.

Expecting not to be thumped is not unreasonable but I’d rather see consistency and wobbles like thrashings. It’s not to say we can’t have both in the long run but avoiding thrashing’s really isn’t a priority right now.

Right now, I’d rather we weren’t thumped but I don’t see it as important as grinding out wins and building some momentum.
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I mean comparing where we are right now to title winning Fergie seasons is ridiculous though, the situations aren't remotely similar. And like I already said, if we were playing good football and relatively consistent and then had a one off spanking that's a different story. But playing terrible football, and then repeatedly getting embarrassed on almost historical levels every time we play Liverpool/City is sackable I'm sorry.
 
Get in the Europa League and win it.

Beat the scousers in Dublin. Becomes this team's '91 Cup Winners Cup moment. We all spend 3 days drinking all the Guinness. Lovely.
 
I think the CL is done, we won't win in Turkey and personally I'd rather not drop into the EL - would rather have extra time on the training pitch

I'm still confident we can get something out of the league campaign. Once back to full strength we'll be OK

Good draw in the FAC and we'd have a decent shot at that too
 
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