The knives are out

Neil Thomson

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From the BBC!
Sir Alex Ferguson's status as the most intimidating man in football allows him to use his reputation as a shield against reality.

It also allows Manchester United's manager to escape criticism for £28m blunders such as the signing of Juan Sebastian Veron.

It allowed him to brush aside suggestions he had weakened his defence by selling his best defender, Jaap Stam, before the season.

It allowed him to announce in December that Laurent Blanc had not been responsible for one goal conceded by Manchester United this season - a claim even the player's close family might have to dispute.

It cannot, however, allow him to rest any longer on the recent claim that Veron has been "fantastic" this season.

Ferguson may like to fool himself, particularly as it was his idea to get Manchester United to sign the cheque, but he cannot fool anyone else.

Ferguson has stood by his £28m signing

Veron has clearly been less that fantastic.

He has, in fact, been awful - a colossal waste of money who has been more of a disruption than an inspiration to Manchester United this season.

But nobody appears willing to say so, presumably because Ferguson's fearsome reputation puts him above the usual laws of soccer scutiny.

It is the transfer blunder that dare not speak its name. All £28m of it.

If Arsene Wenger or Claudio Ranieri had parted with £28m for such an under-achiever, be in no doubt they would have been pilloried months ago.

And now Ferguson's devotion to a player who does not appear to have the heart for Premier League combat may have clouded his judgement to such an extent that it may cost him the title.

Ferguson inexplicably restored Veron to his midfield against Middlesbrough at the expense of Paul Scholes, who had been brilliant in the 5-3 win at West Ham United seven days earlier.

There was no logic in the decision, unless it was based on misplaced loyalty to Veron, or complacency that Middlesbrough could be easily overcome.

It was doubly ironic in that Scholes was the man who, earlier this season said: "Juan is a better player than Eric."

It should be made clear that the Eric in question was, laughably, Cantona - not Sykes or Clapton.

Scholes has suffered from Veron's arrival

Scholes is a more likely match-winner than Veron, better goalscorer, and fits more snugly into the tried and trusted pattern of OId Trafford success.

The result of Frguson's decision was another under-stated Veron display, underscored by being caught like a novice in possession near his own penalty area by Benito Carbone to set up Alen Boksic's winner.

Veron arrived in Manchester amid fanfare - with even BBC Sport Online columnist Mark Lawrenson proclaiming after his signing: "It is already a case of who comes second."

But after a bright start, he soon went into decline.

He was particularly exposed in big matches against Liverpool and Arsenal, when the man regarded as one of the world's finest midfield operators went missing.

Soon his mediocre on-field performances were matched by constant stories of his desperation to return to Rome and Lazio.

Veron allegedly yearned for Lazio. He was supposedly upset he was not shown the same affection at Old Trafford as he was in Rome.

Scholes claimed Veron outshone Cantona

All denied of course - with Ferguson blaming Lazio despite sightings of Veron at the Stadio Olimpico.

The brutal truth is that if Veron wished to make his way back to the Eternal City, many Old Trafford fans would pay his taxi fare to the airport if it meant Scholes was no longer excluded to accommodate him.

For Ferguson, more serious questions will need to be faced if United end the season empty-handed.

Manchester United's midfield was not broken - so why attempt to fix it by spending £28m on a player he did not need?

Ferguson's defence was in need of repair, but rather than spend his transfer fund on a defender, he replaced Stam with the ageing and free-of-charge Blanc.

But Veron is the great enigma of United's season - and the biggest albatross around Ferguson's neck.

The fans are rarely wrong, and if Veron was sold swiftly no tears would be shed on the Stretford End.

And their judgement would be sounder than Ferguson's.


NT: I'm starting to wonder if Veron does have a 'Play me if I'm fit' clause in his contract, because he clearly hasn't been playing as well as Scholes. I almost hope that was the reason, because otherwise it would be SAF's pride and ego being the reason. But if he can drop Beckham for a while, then he should be able to do the same for Veron. I think there is now a good chance that Veron will be sold in the summer, although I wouldn't bet on it, but if he is, would we buy another midfielder? Personally I was happy with Scholes and think a solid defense and more depth in the striking department are bigger problems.
 
I think Veron was partly at fault for the loss yesterday, but the whole team played badly...

To place it on the shoulders of one player is incredibly stupid...
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>I think Veron was partly at fault for the loss yesterday, but the whole team played badly...

To place it on the shoulders of one player is incredibly stupid...</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, I suppose Veron cost us one point, and the rest the other 2, but I think if we hadn't given that stupid goal away then the dynamic of the game would have been very different, and if we then got the first goal I think we would have gone on to win it. Especially if Scholes was on from the start. Do you believe in the post-european match blues theory?
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
True, I suppose Veron cost us one point, and the rest the other 2, but I think if we hadn't given that stupid goal away then the dynamic of the game would have been very different, and if we then got the first goal I think we would have gone on to win it. Especially if Scholes was on from the start. Do you believe in the post-european match blues theory?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We should be good enough to pull a goal back at home to Middlesborough especially when we have 81 minutes to do it.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
True, I suppose Veron cost us one point, and the rest the other 2, but I think if we hadn't given that stupid goal away then the dynamic of the game would have been very different, and if we then got the first goal I think we would have gone on to win it. Especially if Scholes was on from the start. Do you believe in the post-european match blues theory?</strong><hr></blockquote>


we should be able to put TWO past Boro!!! how many times have we conceded an early goal and gone on to win!!


good article:


European adventures take toll on United
By Steve Curry

The statistics do not lie. The best time to have a genuine chance of beating Manchester United is the weekend following one of their Champions League matches.

Sir Alex is kept away from the linesman by the fourth official against Boro on Saturday
(LaurenceGriffiths/Allsport)
United manager Sir Alex Ferguson does not believe it. After the defeat by Middlesbrough, he said: 'We've come back from Europe many times and had great results. So it's not that.'

The record books say he is wrong, though. Three of United's five home Premiership defeats this season - against Bolton, West Ham and Boro, all matches you would expect them to win comfortably - have followed Champions League matches, against Boavista twice and Deportivo La Coruna.

Gary Neville suggested after this latest and most crushing setback that had United won those home bankers, then the nine points would have made their fourth successive title secure.

As it is, the race looks over for them, and it seems as if Liverpool's approach to Europe might be the model to follow.

United have collected just 14 points from the 12 domestic matches that have followed Champions League games while, over the same period, Liverpool have amassed an impressive 34, with 11 wins and a draw.

Arsenal, similarly, have fared much better than United in matches immediately after European encounters. Their record is 24 points from 11 games. Interestingly, three of their worst slip-ups this season - home draws to Bolton and Blackburn and a Highbury defeat by Charlton - all followed Champions League games.

It may be no coincidence that Liverpool have carefully studied how to approach European matches, especially those abroad. One of their conclusions is that players must follow a strict routine if they are to prepare successfully for a Saturday league game after a match on the Continent.

Ferguson insists on his players flying home immediately after matches in Europe, even if they often arrive in Manchester in the middle of the night.

Liverpool manager Gerard Houllier has, on the other hand, abandoned the practice, believing that a good night's rest in Rome, say, before a trek to Middlesbrough is preferable to a disrupted night.

The proof is in the results and United may care to re-examine their strategy, even if it is already too late for this season.

BTW, i think the veron bashings gone over the top... before his injury he was playing well.
 
The idea that Boro are just there to be beaten is probably a good reason why they've knocked us out of the Cup and now killed off our realistic title hopes. They've got a strong defense and battle well, we've found it hard to score against teams who defend deep in numbers this season and so this was never going to be a 2-1 or 3-2 game. Against teams like this you cannot afford to concede the first goal because it plays into the opponents tactical plan, allowing them to just sit back and soak up the pressure, possibly scoring on a break. Grinding out a 1-0 against them in the away leg was a crucial victory at a crucial time, and would have been just as valuable this time.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>The idea that Boro are just there to be beaten is probably a good reason why they've knocked us out of the Cup and now killed off our realistic title hopes. They've got a strong defense and battle well, we've found it hard to score against teams who defend deep in numbers this season and so this was never going to be a 2-1 or 3-2 game. Against teams like this you cannot afford to concede the first goal because it plays into the opponents tactical plan, allowing them to just sit back and soak up the pressure, possibly scoring on a break. Grinding out a 1-0 against them in the away leg was a crucial victory at a crucial time, and would have been just as valuable this time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point emphasized and let this be a lesson to those of us who naively think that we can outscore just about anyone.

There are also times to play it tight.
 
jedi lchk.... you must be the most depressing being around....it was a mistake, yes, but give the poor sod a break will you...lest you forget, veron's also had out of this world games for us...sheesh, take a cill pill, man....ohh and i absolutely see it now, the writer of that bbc article is going to end up with so much egg on his face, he'd better scramble!!! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>lest you forget, veron's also had out of this world games for us...</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

;)
 
oh great, i'm fighting you on two fronts then...got the first smiley, reckon the second one points to a showdown eh..well, bring it on sucka... ;)
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>oh great, i'm fighting you on two fronts then...got the first smiley, reckon the second one points to a showdown eh..well, bring it on sucka... ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

You can't possibly win...if you strike me down then I'll come back stronger..


or summat

;)
 
it isn't about how good Veron was for his last club or how good he could be for us; to play him ahead of Scholes based on the CURRENT form the two of them r in is lunacy. 28 mill should not be buying u an automatic place on the park. if that were the case Bex, the Nevilles, Giggsy, Scholes and Nicky would be on the bench every week! :(
 
Originally posted by sith apprentice davo:
You can't possibly win...if you strike me down then I'll come back stronger..

<hr></blockquote>

doggone it...that's my line...now you've proved what a true scouser you are ;)
 
The worst part of the Veron signing wasn't the money, or his less than spectacular play, it was the upset it caused in the harmony/balance of the team.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. We didn't need him.
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>

doggone it...that's my line...now you've proved what a true scouser you are ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

use the force master jedi...


not that ya need to, coz its only Davo ;)
 
Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
<strong>The worst part of the Veron signing wasn't the money, or his less than spectacular play, it was the upset it caused in the harmony/balance of the team.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. We didn't need him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Totally agree. A rock solid defense would have been more of a help, and younger replacements for the aging Yorke/Cole was needed (we've got these, but one is for the future, we could do with a 3rd ready to play striker).
 
Feckin hell, one point of the pace and all the knives are out.

Veron
Fergie
Coaching staff

etc

A lot can happen between now and the end of the season.
 
Originally posted by 2Bullish:
<strong>Feckin hell, one point of the pace and all the knives are out.

Veron
Fergie
Coaching staff

etc

A lot can happen between now and the end of the season.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, but I haven't heard anything new on this forum that hasn't been said since early december. Which I suppose is promising since we came back from that far behind. However, 8 defeats signals a real problem even if we win the EPL due to other teams suffering injuries or bottling it.
 
True, but what does everyone expect. We cannot win every year, year in and year out. We haven't lost anything yet.

We are still in the PL and CL. Lets wait and see what happens.
 
We will win the title

I can't believe that your it giving up already.....

especially that nonce 2bullish
 
Originally posted by 2Bullish:
<strong>True, but what does everyone expect. We cannot win every year, year in and year out. We haven't lost anything yet.

We are still in the PL and CL. Lets wait and see what happens.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Correct, but at the same time we shouldn't give up trying to win every trophy every year - that's what footballers are paid to try and do. Hopefully they'll keep trying this season and make it on goal difference at the end, but can you seriously expect Alex to not try to improve his squad next season so that he has a better chance of winning the EPL & CL again next year? Of course not, just as last summer he bought a few players, this summer he'll probably have more work to do because we've had a worse season and many players are retiring or moving on.
 
Originally posted by manwithbigAyes:
<strong>We will win the title

I can't believe that your it giving up already.....

especially that nonce 2bullish</strong><hr></blockquote>
:rolleyes: Why do I get the feeling that this is another alias?
 
If we draw with Leeds we are finished. If we draw with Arse we are finished. If Arse win only one of their games in hand we are finished. That is the reality of it. Concede now, and let's use all our resources for the Champion's League.
 
Veron ain;'t the problem. The whole unieted squad has let it's self down in most crucial matches this sesaon.from Barhez to Van "the man". Their is no doubt Veron can be brilliant. remember him against ealier this season at OT against Everton ?
anyways' I think the paspport scandal in Italy in pre season affected Veron more than he leon. His focus has been eratic tos ay the least. \but next season will be a different story. :D
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>jedi lchk.... you must be the most depressing being around....it was a mistake, yes, but give the poor sod a break will you...lest you forget, veron's also had out of this world games for us...sheesh, take a cill pill, man....ohh and i absolutely see it now, the writer of that bbc article is going to end up with so much egg on his face, he'd better scramble!!! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You got me wrong yoda.

I never slammed veron, I merely pointed out the fact that some of us here on red cafe have this naive notion that we win games by outscoring everyone in sight instead of being realistic and accepting the fact that we have to grind out 1-0 results at times.

So your barb is misguided.
 
Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
<strong>The worst part of the Veron signing wasn't the money, or his less than spectacular play, it was the upset it caused in the harmony/balance of the team.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. We didn't need him.</strong><hr></blockquote>


What a load of rubbish. Why was he bought in the first place. Most agreed we needed another creative midfielder, especially in the CL. That's why Veron was bought. Is he worth 28 million pounds? Yes. Has he played up to his potential or hype? No. Has he fit into the United squad? No.

To suggest he cannot make it in the EPL is nuts. He would have fit better into clubs like Chelsea and Arsenal because of the way he plays (down the middle). It just hasn't been a good fit at United. United are more direct. Not the Liverpool hoof direct, but their play has a purpose. That is to create and score goals. You don't have to be flashy or cool, just get the job done. Veron has played too cool.

I think we've forgotten that United have won in the past because of their drive , determination and commitment for the full 90 minutes. The work ethic has been the cornerstone of Ferigie's teams success. I would have to say that Veron has not fit into Fergies work ethic. Sure everyone has made mistakes. But, you can't say that a Silvestre hasn't played his hardest 99% of thee time. Can we honestly say the same of Veron. I'm not sure why a player of his calibre cannot fit into any clubs way of play. Maybe he'll be gone before next season. If not, it will be interesting how he'll make out next season.

Also, does anyone think that Arseanal and United could do a swap of somesorts for Veron and Vieira. Or perhaps Juventus will show interest in Veron if they can't land Vieira.

Fergie wants to continue with his 4-5-1 plans for next season he could move DB inside, sell Veron and buy someone to play RM. which in hindsight is what he should of done this season.
 
Originally posted by lchk:
You got me wrong yoda.

I never slammed veron, I merely pointed out the fact that some of us here on red cafe have this naive notion that we win games by outscoring everyone in sight instead of being realistic and accepting the fact that we have to grind out 1-0 results at times.

So your barb is misguided.

<hr></blockquote>


greetings jedi...jedi lchk...fair play to you, should have posted this in some thread where you did slag off veron....but the point is most all your threads are of gloom...what are you, an eternal Utd pessimist <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ....but seriously you are right in that we should grind out more 1-0 wins...then again where's the fun in that eh....personally we always score more than th opposition, but only if they score 3 past us!! boro came with an excellent game plan, score one and NOT three, then throw everyone behind the ball and pray real hard <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> holy cow, mclaren's a bloody genius...he's the next Utd manager, i tell you ;)
 
Could it be that the FA cup and PL have been sacrificed in an all-or-nothing attempt at the CL ? The whole rotation policy, formation and player experiments, have all been directed at the CL. Our recent CL form has been convincing. In fact I expect to meet Real in the final and then its anybody's game. To me one CL (or European Cup, or whatever its called next year) is worth 4 premierships. In the CL we have avoided these 0-1 results this season.
 
Originally posted by Rod:
<strong>Could it be that the FA cup and PL have been sacrificed in an all-or-nothing attempt at the CL ? The whole rotation policy, formation and player experiments, have all been directed at the CL. Our recent CL form has been convincing. In fact I expect to meet Real in the final and then its anybody's game. To me one CL (or European Cup, or whatever its called next year) is worth 4 premierships. In the CL we have avoided these 0-1 results this season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't know about FA Cup, but the PL was definitely affected. I've already pointed it out in Oct or Nov last year that Fergie was using the PL as an experimental ground for his CL formation. And honestly say I'm still not too optimistic about our chance in CL. There are two big reasons for this:
1. We must beat the "big guns" at the latter part of CL, which we fail to do all through this season.
2. The factor of Veron is confusing. He was the player that Fergie placed our CL hope on, yet with his current performance (or his performance all through this season), his presence have a better chance to weaken the team than to strengthen the team. So Fergie would face a dilima: play him or not play him?
 
Originally posted by jedi master yoda:
<strong>


greetings jedi...jedi lchk...fair play to you, should have posted this in some thread where you did slag off veron....but the point is most all your threads are of gloom...what are you, an eternal Utd pessimist <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ....but seriously you are right in that we should grind out more 1-0 wins...then again where's the fun in that eh....personally we always score more than th opposition, but only if they score 3 past us!! boro came with an excellent game plan, score one and NOT three, then throw everyone behind the ball and pray real hard <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> holy cow, mclaren's a bloody genius...he's the next Utd manager, i tell you ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

If I was the ultimate pessimist as you claim me to be, I would be demanding that we sell Veron and Forlan and saying that we have no chance against Deportivo in the CL.

It's not fun when we struggle to score against packed defences when we concede early goals.

You've got to keep it balanced at times, all-out attack only exists in football comics and PC games.
 
Originally posted by Darko
Fergie wants to continue with his 4-5-1 plans for next season he could move DB inside, sell Veron and buy someone to play RM. which in hindsight is what he should of done this season.
<hr></blockquote>

Why buy someone? I think Chadwick may be good enough, and the money is better spent elsewhere.