The "Italian footballer transfers don't make sense" thread

[Oo0AahCantona]

Like, I don't understand it, time and time again they get top quality players on cheap loan deals or severely undervalued transfer fee's while other clubs around europe faff around struggling and complaining about the market. As well as the bizarre fashion of clubs loaning out their better players to rivals its an absolute madhouse. What's going on? The outliers here i would say would be Napoli and Juve who seem to be building very decent squads on the back of successfully campaigns/big money transfers.

This year alone, Miranda, a player who many clubs seemed to court in the past few summers, including ourselves who baulked at the 30m+ fee for what was along with Diego Godin was/is one of the best central defenders in europe, is currently on loan.. at inter milan... who finished 8th last year.

Then there's the likes of Mohamed Salah, Edin Dzeko, lucas Digne, El shaarawy, Mandzukic, Ljajic, Kondogbia, Perisic, Blaszykowski, Sami Khedira on a free, Cassano doing his hopping around on free transfers and Ciro Immobile.

All on a mixture of Loans, Free transfers, or severely under market rate transfers, then to make it more odd often between each other.

There's players on that list that would walk into the majority of premier league clubs.

 

[Nanook]

Inter bought Miranda didn't they? It's just a loan right now for FFP reasons.

 

[JPRouve]

Kondogbia was a big transfer and Digne lost his battle against Maxwell. But since you compare it to the PL, remember that for all Europe English clubs are fools.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Maybe their sporting directors are just cannier than ours, and more adept at pressing flesh and speaking to the right people.

 

[100]

It's the transfers from one top club to another in Serie A that's strange.

The players you listed aren't all that. Any many are on high wages that negates the need for a huge fee to obtain them.

 

[Sandikan]

Whatever it is, it couldn't be further from those days where top players had to go to Italy to earn the big bucks.
Must be quite worrying for Italian teams, to see how their league has fallen so low.

 

[Bubz27]

Getting players at the right time. After a failed big move (Salah), when they've been replaced (Mandzukic) or a year or 2 after their peak (Miranda).

 

[Adam-Utd]

Strange how Italian league players play for multiple rival clubs, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Quagliarella, El Sharaawy and many more I am sure.

I guess maybe it's more accepted out there but I cant imagine the fans like it.

 

[Timdbro]

I think it's just English clubs, and in particular us, who are horrendous at getting value for money. Even Barça/Real seem to get better deals than PL clubs.
Edit: Except Leicester apparently

 

[Hojoon]

Inter are obligated to sign Miranda at the end of the loan so it's basically a signing. They've actually made some shocking deals this summer. 60m for Perisic, Kondogbia, and Miranda is terrible.

The one particularly weird thing is how players jump around from big clubs. There are so many players who have played for multiple rival clubs that it must feel a bit strange, but maybe they just have a different perspective on these kinds of things.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Strange how Italian league players play for multiple rival clubs, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Quagliarella, El Sharaawy and many more I am sure.

I guess maybe it's more accepted out there but I cant imagine the fans like it.

That is a name ive not heard in a while!

 

[Keeps It tidy]

The Co-Ownership model they have in Italy allows some weird things to happen transfer wise.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Kondogbia was a big transfer and Digne lost his battle against Maxwell. But since you compare it to the PL, remember that for all Europe English clubs are fools.

It isn't though. Setting selling prices in any industry is simply a case of what you can get away with, as the English clubs are richer they have to pay more which is why it is a red herring to use the 'look how much the English clubs pay against League x,y and z as an argument. The same dynamic happens in the English leagues when a Championship team beat a Premier League team in the FA Cup for example, the commentators love a bit of 'Man Utd are getting beat by a team that cost £200m less, isn't that amazing'. Well no it isn't.

 

[JPRouve]

It isn't though. Setting selling prices in any industry is simply a case of what you can get away with, as the English clubs are richer they have to pay more which is why it is a red herring to use the 'look how much the English clubs pay against League x,y and z as an argument

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[do.ob]

Like, I don't understand it, time and time again they get top quality players on cheap loan deals or severely undervalued transfer fee's while other clubs around europe faff around struggling and complaining about the market. As well as the bizarre fashion of clubs loaning out their better players to rivals its an absolute madhouse. What's going on? The outliers here i would say would be Napoli and Juve who seem to be building very decent squads on the back of successfully campaigns/big money transfers.

This year alone, Miranda, a player who many clubs seemed to court in the past few summers, including ourselves who baulked at the 30m+ fee for what was along with Diego Godin was/is one of the best central defenders in europe, is currently on loan.. at inter milan... who finished 8th last year.

Then there's the likes of Mohamed Salah, Edin Dzeko, lucas Digne, El shaarawy, Mandzukic, Ljajic, Kondogbia, Perisic, Blaszykowski, Sami Khedira on a free, Cassano doing his hopping around on free transfers and Ciro Immobile.

All on a mixture of Loans, Free transfers, or severely under market rate transfers, then to make it more odd often between each other.

There's players on that list that would walk into the majority of premier league clubs.

Salah apparently cost them a loan fee of €5m and a buy fee of €15m - not exactly cheap. Dzeko cost them €15m, considering his age and wages that was probably quite a good deal for City. El Sha apparently was a failure at Monaco and Milan didn't want him back so that deal doesn't seem like a steal either. €16m for Perisic wasn't cheap at all and the fee apparently was paid upfront, so I don't know what he's got to do with that list.
Khedira was simply out of contract. Kuba had his best spell in 12/13, he had an ACL injury that basically kept him out for the entire 2014 year, he wasn't the same afterwards and Tuchel didn't rate him at all, so Dortmund simply wanted to get rid of him.
Mandzukic was surplus to requirements in Munich and from what I remember seemed to have some problems in Madrid too, so his fee wasn't that surprising, especially considering the fact that he will turn 30 this season.
Cassano was always a difficult character and afaik he had some heart problems in recent past, so him moving around a lot isn't a surprise either, he's also deep into his 30s by now.

Much more baffling is the Coman deal which apparently lets Bayern loan the kid for 2 years and includes a €21m buy clause. Which to be frank looks quite insane at the moment.

 

[Winrar]

Strange how Italian league players play for multiple rival clubs, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Quagliarella, El Sharaawy and many more I am sure.

I guess maybe it's more accepted out there but I cant imagine the fans like it.

that's something I've been wondering about as well.

 

[Nedved]

Well, the finances of the Serie A isn't what it used to be. The days of Lazio throwing money around om everything, like PL teams to today, are long gone. Good strategy and scouting is imperative now.

Shipping out average players for a good price, and replacing them on loan/cheap transfers with slightly better ones is a good recipe.

Also, not discarding players because of age/status is also important. Evra and Pirlo on a free, Barzagli on the cheap etc have been superb transfers for Juve. Players which were let go for various reasons by clubs who later probably regretted it.

Fairly average players like Immobile, Shaqiri and Ogbonna can be sold to a good price to richer leagues, whereas EPL or Real/Barca flops aren't bought by anyone for a good price. No one will spend anything close to what was spent on Fellaini or Mangala, which more or less were panic buys for outrageous sums.

Salah apparently cost them a loan fee of €5m and a buy fee of €15m - not exactly cheap. Dzeko cost them €15m, considering his age and wages that was probably quite a good deal for City. El Sha apparently was a failure at Monaco and Milan didn't want him back so that deal doesn't seem like a steal either. €16m for Perisic wasn't cheap at all and the fee apparently was paid upfront, so I don't know what he's got to do with that list.
Khedira was simply out of contract. Kuba had his best spell in 12/13, he had an ACL injury that basically kept him out for the entire 2014 year, he wasn't the same afterwards and Tuchel didn't rate him at all, so Dortmund simply wanted to get rid of him.
Mandzukic was surplus to requirements in Munich and from what I remember seemed to have some problems in Madrid too, so his fee wasn't that surprising, especially considering the fact that he will turn 30 this season.
Cassano was always a difficult character and afaik he had some heart problems in recent past, so him moving around a lot isn't a surprise either, he's also deep into his 30s by now.

Much more baffling is the Coman deal which apparently lets Bayern loan the kid for 2 years and includes a €21m buy clause. Which to be frank looks quite insane at the moment.

Coman was signed for free from PSG and will be sold for 28 m in total. He was far from a starting position at Juve, so he wanted out. Reasonable deal for all parties unless he goes through a Pogba like transformation.

 

[devilish]

As Nedved said the days when the Italian clubs could outbid others is long over. These days they either sign players quickly (Juventus arranged a private deal with Dybala before the big clubs came knocking) or else they sign players no one really wants. Case in point is Fellaini. Napoli and AC Milan came knocking our doors asking us to handle him over practically on a free (loan with a ridiculous right to buy fee and we pay half the salary)

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't know what you are talking about.

Football is a unique market when it comes to player transfers. It is largely a sellers market. If you are a hard headed agent the you can exploit the English market as English clubs have more disposable income, if you cannot exploit that market for whatever reasons, which could be due to things from a multitude of factors then you have to operate in different market and you can only operate within those market conditions. You can't roll up in Italy and say 'the player wants to remain in Italy but if he did move to England then they would pay him x' because they can say 'the player wants to stay in Italy so the English market is irrelevant' that is a strong negotiating point in that case. And so on and so far to a broad range of factors.

 

[JPRouve]

Football is a unique market when it comes to player transfers. It is largely a sellers market. If you are a hard headed agent the you can exploit the English market as English clubs have more disposable income, if you cannot exploit that market for whatever reasons, which could be due to things from a multitude of factors then you have to operate in different market and you can only operate within those market conditions. You can't roll up in Italy and say 'the player wants to remain in Italy but if he did move to England then they would pay him x' because they can say 'the player wants to stay in Italy so the English market is irrelevant' that is a strong negotiating point in that case. And so on and so far to a broad range of factors.

It's not a unique market, for example Jordan Ayew is not a 12m player, that price is only correct for an english team.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Case in point is Fellaini. Napoli and AC Milan came knocking our doors asking us to handle him over practically on a free (loan with a ridiculous right to buy fee and we pay half the salary)

Did this really happen?

 

[devilish]

Did this really happen?

Well I am not Galliani so I am not sure. However he does have a reputation of knocking at the big club's doors asking for their rejects for these kind of deals. These sort of things are also common in the Serie A. Clubs think that the Spanish/British clubs are so loaded that they wouldn't really care

 

[2 man midfield]

Strange how Italian league players play for multiple rival clubs, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Quagliarella, El Sharaawy and many more I am sure.

I guess maybe it's more accepted out there but I cant imagine the fans like it.

Ronaldo, Baggio, Vieri, Balotelli, Pazzini, Cassano, Vieira, Pirlo, Ibra, the list goes on.

It happens in Portugal too. Sporting, Benfica and Porto have players to have turned out for 2 or 3 of each.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Well I am not Galliani so I am not sure. However he does have a reputation of knocking at the big club's doors asking for their rejects for these kind of deals. These sort of things are also common in the Serie A. Clubs think that the Spanish/British clubs are so loaded that they wouldn't really care

Yeah, it just sounded like the usual "fan reads an article and then speculates any old waffle claiming it as gospel on the caf" type of thing. I seem to remember Galliani coming straight out and saying he had 10 players for the midfield and that it was complete bollocks. Probably made up via the Napoli link when Fellaini got injured.

 

[simonhch]

Miranda, [old and shit] Mohamed Salah, [EPL flop, fast but otherwise shit] Edin Dzeko, [shit] lucas Digne, [unwanted @ PSG] El shaarawy, [injured, flop, shit] Mandzukic, [21M for a 29yrd old] Ljajic, [Nothing special] Kondogbia, [cost 31M] Perisic, [16M and average] Blaszykowski, [loan, old, not the same since cruciate] Sami Khedira on a free [Was out of contract, not that great], Cassano, [old and inconsistent] Ciro Immobile. [loan, BL flop]

Don't understand your post at all. You haven't listed a single player who I find even remotely impressive. By these standards I am sure there are plenty of players signing for PL clubs that wouldn't look out of place on this list. e.g. Payet, Shaquiri, Cabaye, Wijnaldum, Mahrez, Mane, Eriksen, etc., etc.

 

[devilish]

Yeah, it just sounded like the usual "fan reads an article and then speculates any old waffle claiming it as gospel on the caf" type of thing. I seem to remember Galliani coming straight out and saying he had 10 players for the midfield and that it was complete bollocks. Probably made up via the Napoli link when Fellaini got injured.

Galliani says alot of things Perrick. No one believes him anymore. Same as Berlusconi who sometimes promised not to sell a player on life tv only to sell him few weeks later

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Galliani says alot of things Perrick. No one believes him anymore. Same as Berlusconi who sometimes promised not to sell a player on life tv only to sell him few weeks later

Please, Perrick is what my father calls me when he's in a rage. Call me Perry, which is why I find the details about loans etc highly suspect and at the very least completely made up.

 

[devilish]

Please, Perrick is what my father calls me when he's in a rage. Call me Perry, which is why I find the details about loans etc highly suspect and at the very least completely made up.

Its built on the concept that rich clubs would do anything to get rid of players they don't want. Sometimes clubs end up with players on ridiculous high salaries that they can't offload anywhere. Fellaini is an example of that (a mid EPL club sort of player who found himself a 30m signing to a big club), other examples would be Bogarde at Chelsea. Its a deal that benefit mostly the loaned party as they get decent players, on half their salary and which they can (and would probably) send back. However those who allow these deals ensure that that player will get exposure which would hopefully lead to a deal and that half his salary will be paid by someone else

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Its built on the concept that rich clubs would do anything to get rid of players they don't want. Sometimes clubs end up with players on ridiculous high salaries that they can't offload anywhere. Fellaini is an example of that (a mid EPL club sort of player who found himself a 30m signing to a big club), other examples would be Bogarde at Chelsea. Its a deal that benefit mostly the loaned party as they get decent players, on half their salary and which they can (and would probably) send back. However those who allow these deals ensure that that player will get exposure which would hopefully lead to a deal and that half his salary will be paid by someone else

80k is not really that high, is it? Sounds like a bad example to me, but the whole premise of your argument isn't really based on anything tangible. Rather a hypotherical scenario where by which most/all transfers offloaded to the Serie A would be offcasts and they have no real buying power. I don't think it is as simple as that, but off topic so I will back out here.

 

[Varun]

It's only the English clubs throw cash around for fun on average players. It's a matter of pride too for some because the league has the money.

 

[devilish]

80k is not really that high, is it? Sounds like a bad example to me, but the whole premise of your argument isn't really based on anything tangible. Rather a hypotherical scenario where by which most/all transfers offloaded to the Serie A would be offcasts and they have no real buying power. I don't think it is as simple as that, but off topic so I will back out here.

The Serie A team financial structure is ridiculously primitive. Most of their stadiums are owned by the local councils and their sponsorship rights and merchandise are very simple and inadequate to support big clubs. Also the Italian fans do not have the culture to go and watch matches at the stadium which makes it difficult for clubs to make ends meet.

Most of the money come from the sugar daddies, the tv rights and the supporters. All of which had been hurt badly by recession. Italy has a high unemployment record. More and more youths are leaving the country and those who remain are struggling to make ends meet. I live in London and its becoming more frequent to hear Italians speaking as immigration from the country had increased exponentially throughout the years.

To make matters worse the supporters aren't as 'accommodating' as the United ones. If the team start performing badly then they will stop watching games at the stadium as a sign of protest. If the club refuse to invest then they won't pay their membership fee which the club rely heavily on. There's no real competition for the TV rights either. Sky and Mediaset do compete with one another but I assure you there's no record bids involved either. As Berlusconi said once the Serie A is today the 5th richest league in Europe behind the EPL, La Liga, the French League and the Bundersliga.

So yeah 80k can be a big thing for these cash strapped clubs especially since he's probably not good enough to play for AC Milan either.

On the other hand Getting a player like Fellaini on almost free will raise the morale of the fans. We all know he's dog shit but the Italians tend not to follow the EPL so clubs can use their propaganda machine to portray this 'regular Belgian international' whom 'United had spent 30m on' as world class, duping fans to spend their hard earned cash on membership fees. All sort of tricks of the trade had been used in the past to achieve that with the owners promising not to sell players only to sell them once the supporters paid their membership fees.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If they told you, they'd have to kill you, paisan.