The Impossible Draft R1 - Moby vs Gio

With players at Career peak, who will win this match?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

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VS
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......................................... TEAM MOBY ...................................................................................................... TEAM GIO ....................................................


TEAM MOBY​

Playing a 4-4-2. Fairly ambitious, having a real go at the opposition and constantly using the flanks with two up front.

The defense is led by Sergio Livingstone and marshalled by Billy Wright, who provides the steel to the more stylish Popescu alongside. A complimentary pairing. Out wide is the Madrid legend Camacho and the Chilean great Eyzaguierre. Both fullbacks are well versed with bombing forward providing width and will use that here to great effect.

In midfield, we have a tremendous pair of Roy Keane and Johan Neeskens. Two absolute powerhouse midfield generals with Keane providing his insane intensity, work rate and midfield dominance with Neeskens being a huge contributor to that as well as his elite creative passing and technique to unlock the toughest of defenses.

Flanking them is the legendary Brazilian duo of Rivellino and Jairzinho. The two world cup winning stars in what is the greatest national team ever, will assume similar roles with THAT midfield platform behind them. Rivellino will as usual provide his ability to combine with the midfield as well as dominate his flank and provide insane creativity. While Jairzinho plays a more direct role, isolating defenders and scoring with his deadly finishing.

Up front is the pairing of Enzo Francescoli and Josef Bican. Enzo, one of the most talented players ever so much so that he is the idol of the opposition playmaker today. Brilliant at playing in the hole and using any pockets of space to great effect as well as his ability to roam in the channels and directly take on defenders. As a package, he is a massive problem for the opposition and he fits perfectly in this setup. And up front is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Absolute weapon in front of goal who can equally create chances for himself as well as convert the chances created by the loads of creativity behind him.

TEAM GIO


TACTICS:
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A 4-2-3-1 built around unmatched midfield control, with a multi-faceted attack filled with world-class forwards and an effective and complementary backline.

ATTACK
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The greatest forward in the British football history, Denis Law leads the line - A Ballon d'Or winner who rattled 85 goals in 94 games at his peak, Law is one of the most rounded footballers of all time who combines constant goal threat with world class playmaking, hold-up play and pressing from the front. With the creativity provided by Falcao, Zidane and Kubala Law is guaranteed a host of chances which he is always liable to put away. Stylistically we fancy his movement, technique and dynamism to be too hot to handle for Moby's centre backs.

Alex Ferguson said:
Lightning quick, fearless, dynamic, good with both feet, spectacular - and sometimes unbelievably devastating - in the air, he was as near as damn it the perfect goalscoring individual.
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One of the greatest left wingers of all time and mainstay of the Might Magyars, Zoltan Czibor dominated the left flank during the 1950s with his pace and dribbling ability. With his propensity for classic wing-play and ability to hug the touchline, Czibor offers a balance to the side and pin-point crossing ability - he looks set to provide a constant target for Zidane's through balls and we see him providing huge assist potential for Law and Kubala. On the opposite wing is Czibor's Barcelona teammate and the man declared Barcelona's best ever player in 1999, László Kubala, who will support Law from the right and get on the end of Czibor's delivery in the very same way he did at the Nou Camp. With 280 goals in 345 games for Barcelona, Kubala's combination of power, trickery and eye for a goal poses real problems for Moby's backline.

Di Stefano said:
You couldn't knock him over with a cannonball.
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MIDFIELD
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The midfield is headed up by the maestro Zinedine Zidane who provides the link to the attack with his supreme technical ability and guaranteed stream of service. He'll be in his element with willing runners and quality ahead while sparking off another creative genius in the centre of midfield.



Behind him a South American tandem of Paulo Roberto Falcão and Nestor Gonçalves provides a technically exquisite and defensively solid platform for the rest of the team. Both players dominated European opposition throughout their careers, with Goncalves the defensive midfield backbone of the great Penarol side that won 9 league titles between 1958 and 1968, three Copa Libertadores wins, two Intercontinental Cup wins (overcoming Eusebio's Benfica and Real Madrid) and the Intercontinental Cup Winners Supercup (defeating Pele's Santos). Falcao requires no introduction and remains the standout midfield playmaker in the pool, with his performances for Brazil in 1982 the stuff of legend, and like Law at Old Trafford he was crowned the King of Rome after he led Roma to their first league title in 40 years.

DEFENCE
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In defence Andreas Brehme is one of the greatest full-backs of all time and his ability to control a game from full-back is almost unmatched, he will link up well with Falcao and Kubala ahead of him, while Law will relish his accurate crossing. His West German counterpart Hans-Pieter Briegel is one of the most physically impressive specimens to have played the game. He was a huge talisman for Verona, inspiring them to their first ever title, famously man-marking Diego Maradona and scoring a header in the opening game of the Scudetto-winning campaign. In the middle, Murtaz Khurtsilava is one of the greatest Eastern European defenders of all time: his reading of the game, positioning and anticipation were all world-class. Excellent on the ball as well, as shown by his thundering effort off the bar against West Germany in the 1972 European Championships Final. Whatever Khurtsilava lacks in athleticism, Carlos Mozer makes up for and then some. Blessed with an incredible leap, pace and strength, the big Brazilian was a legend for Benfica and Marseille where he was the defensive lynch-pin of two runner-up European Cup campaigns. Behind him is the Boca and Argentina keeper Antonio Roma who formed an integral part of the watertight Argentina back line of the 1960s.

WHY WE WILL WIN:
  • Too much firepower. Falcao and Zidane overflow with creativity, providing a steady stream of service for the King Law and the Hungary and Barcelona duo Kubala and Czibor.
  • Czibor getting beyond Eyzaguirre and whipping crosses onto Law's head and the back-post runs of Kubala is a decisive route to goal.
  • Denis Law will cause Popescu and Wright plenty of problems with his hold-up play, aggression and aerial ability.
  • A pair of top class full-backs who will match up well to Moby's wide men. Briegel is deployed on the left where his sheer physicality should match up well to Jairzinho's athletic style. The two-footed Brehme can control the game from the right and his reading of the game should be well suited to dealing with Rivelino's quick feet.
 
Hard to separate both sides. Slightly prefer @Gio's personnel but @Moby is well-matched here (with Keane's performance against Zidane's Juventus being the first thing that comes to mind of any United supporter).
 
went with Moby as had to read up on a few players from both teams but with the speed of Bican as a #9 and with Francescoli as #10 supported with the 4 behind would take some stopping for me
 
harms said:
Hard to separate both sides. Slightly prefer @Gio's personnel but @Moby is well-matched here (with Keane's performance against Zidane's Juventus being the first thing that comes to mind of any United supporter).
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yeah my thoughts exactly.

That midfield 4 that @Moby has build is good as any, not only in this draft but all time.

On the other hand @Gio 's isn't half bad. I rate Tito pretty highly and along with Falcao is pretty complimentary duo.
 
I would've liked to hear more about Mozer if possible? Haven't seen much of him to be honest
 
harms said:
Hard to separate both sides. Slightly prefer @Gio's personnel but @Moby is well-matched here (with Keane's performance against Zidane's Juventus being the first thing that comes to mind of any United supporter).
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Indeed. To be fair Zidane had several influential and dominant performances against United over the years, getting 5 assists in his 8 games against the club.



 
Man, Myth or a Legend - Ladislao Kubala

The man who built Camp Nou.

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Messi, Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic, etc - forwards who dazzle the world and attract fans regardless of club favorites. They are under the full media highlight and attention. Alas that is not the case with Ladislao Kubala - the man who created miracles that were never taped at the time.

Camp Nou in Barcelona is one of the most beautiful stadiums in Europe, carries a peculiar name: "The home that Kubala built". Kubala was a player, forward, whose art on the football pitch made building that grand stadium a required task. During the 50's just about everyone wanted to watch Kubala live.



Kubala toured Europe with team made up of his friends. There were all sorts of players in that team, but none close to the technical ability, vision and talent that Kubala possessed. He had a phenomenal shot and read the game like nobody else at the time. In 1950 that amateur team nearly brought the Spanish national team at the time at the brink of defeat. That day was a day to remember for all Spanish and Barcelona supporters as Pepe Samitier - a club legend and director at the time approaches Kubala and offers to change his fortune.

When Kubala landed in the Spanish League he became a top-notch scorer, despite his favorite position being the right interior, in charge of assisting César or launching balls to the wingers. His love of tactics made him come up with an almost childish, but utterly effective, way of driving rival defenses dizzy: He alternates his position with César’s. With just a look of acknowledgement, one fell back to take the defender out of his position while the other moved into the center of the attack.

And indeed he does - his ban is lifted while in the meantime Real Madrid approaches Kubala as well trying to get him to Bernabeu. Kubala firmly denies and eventually becomes the highest buy for Barcelona at the time. On 2nd of April 1951 he plays his first game for Barcelona and immediately receives a call up for the Spanish national side. For Spain he plays 19 games scoring 11 goals. Unfortunately at the time he never got the chance to play in the World Cup.

Una leyenda

Contrary to his international career his club one is something to brag about. Along with other Barca attackers - Basora, César, Manchón, Moreno he wins everything in sight in his first three seasons in Catalunia. In his 11 years at Barca he scores impressive 243 goals in 329 games. His exquisite vision, impeccable reading of the game, perfectly weighted and time passes along with his genius way of thinking dazzled a whole generation. A generation that he undoubtedly ruled on his own. As usually at the time he was often brutally fouled, upended and kicked about, but his physique and will on the pitch was really something special.

In his first season he led the club to victory in the Generalisimo’s Cup. The season after was even more successful – with Kubala scoring 26 goals in 19 games, a record comparable with the phenomenal feats of Cristiano Ronaldo and Lio Messi in today’s game, and Barcelona won all 5 competitions it entered.

Kubala's success continued - another three league titles, four domestic cups and even two Inter-Cities Fairs Cups followed the five-trophy season, but there was one title that would remain conspicuous in its absence.

In 1961, having eliminated Real Madrid in the first round, Barca lost the European Cup final 3-2 to Benfica. Kubala, who was by then in his mid-30s, hit the post twice against the Portuguese club. That Kubala is remembered as one of Barcelona's greatest ever despite failing to win the European Cup perhaps says as much about his class as converting one of those two chances in the final would have.

Kubala was a revolutionary, and his story is proof of the fact that Barcelona, and by extension Spanish football, dismisses the lessons that can be derived from his evolution, ignores that historical memory from which so much might be extracted. Very few know and recognize in this day and age that Kubala deserves the role of a visionary capable of opening a new era, later shared with his friend Di Stefano, another genius who changed the personality and fate of his institution.

With Kubala came modern times. He was Picasso in his era. He and Di Stefano were friends, both revolutionaries who shared similar values. If Kubala is a pioneer of the current Barcelona model, Di Stéfano also deserves a highlighted place for inspiring that air of a team unable to give up in his Real Madrid, something that still prevails in last minute comebacks when fury is unleashed at the Bernabéu.

Kubala had everything, and watching the still-impressive footage of him in his pomp, it isn't difficult to believe that assessment. Incredibly robust thanks to his love of amateur boxing, he was also capable of pirouetting on the ball or using a drag-back to dumbfound defenders and goalkeepers. To top it off, he possessed a finishing touch.


https://www.footbie.com/video/ladislao-kubala-fc-barcelona-legend

The title of Frederic Porta's 2012 biography of Kubala is "The Hero Who Changed Barca's History," and that phrase sums up his importance to the club. A before-and-after moment is marked by his arrival: Without him, Barcelona's trophy cabinet would be significantly less full, and without his ability to fill Les Corts to the rafters, the plans to build the Camp Nou may not have pressed ahead.

Credit to @Enigma_87
 
I know nothing about Carlos Mozer. Why is he never mentioned when talking about the best brazilian CBs, considering the relatively low-profile nature of some of the names in the discussion (Aldair etc.)?

Is there any well known player he could be compared with based on playing style and quality?
 
It's pretty close but I have gone for Gio. Czibor on Ezaggy is a problem waiting to happen for Moby (and his tulpa Aldo). Also if Keane stops Zidane, unlike that Juve side Gio has a Falcao and also a Czibor for creativity, not a Tacchinardi and Davids.
 
@Gio has too many favorites who are swaying my vote so far. Nice to see Kubala featuring, also Tito and Mozer.

On the other hand Moby has a great team as well and it's really unlucky for both teams to face off each other this early.

Will follow the discussions to see how this would pan out.
 
Don Alfredo said:
I know nothing about Carlos Mozer. Why is he never mentioned when talking about the best brazilian CBs, considering the relatively low-profile nature of some of the names in the discussion (Aldair etc.)?

Is there any well known player he could be compared with based on playing style and quality?
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harms said:
I would've liked to hear more about Mozer if possible? Haven't seen much of him to be honest
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Yeah wanted to give him some more of the spotlight. At the age of just 20, he was centre-half for Flamengo when they won the Copa Libertadores and kept a clean sheet in the pumping of Liverpool in the Intercontinental Cup. Didn't get into the Brazil team until just after Spain '82 a year later, which might have been a mistake in retrospect as he soon established himself as first choice thereafter. Unfortunately injured just ahead of Mexico '86 when he was in his prime, albeit Brazil had some solid options at the time so his absence was managed reasonably well. Moved to Benfica where he led them to the European Cup Final in his first season which they lost on penalties to PSV. Their campaign was marked by an absolutely bulletproof defence which kept 8 clean sheets in 9 games.

Marseille snapped him up and he was a key part of the team that should have won the 1991 European Cup turning over Milan en route, but fell to Red Star on penalties. Once again Mozer couldn't do any more, like three years earlier keeping a clean sheet in the final, scoring his penalty in the final again (leadership and technical ability as Waddle alludes below). By this time, Mozer had gained the nickname 'The Wall' at the Velodrome and led the backline to the club's best ever defensive season in their history in 1991/92. In terms of his legacy and appeal to a wider audience, he was hugely unfortunate not to win at least 1 European Cup to add to his Libertadores and had unlucky timing with both the start of his international career and the injury ahead of the '86 tournament. That said, these circumstances do make him tailor made for this draft.

I've seen a few lists of Brazilian's greatest ever centre-halves and typically he's not that high. But I can bet those lists are more informed by a CB being part of a successful international team as opposed to their actual qualities on the park. And there have been plenty of Brazil sides who have been successful in spite of having bombscares at the back. Few if any had his defensive all-roundedness nor kept such a frequently tight ship at club level.

Chris Waddle said:
A sweeper-cum-centre-half who I played with for three years at Marseille. Exactly as you'd expect from a Brazilian, he was technically out of this world, but if you wanted a fight, he'd fight you. He could lose his head at times, but I've never seen anyone as good in the air. He could have played in any position. A must.
Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/chris-waddle-perfect-xi#55TDcVq3zRjCjfHj.99
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As Chris said, a lot of his success in the game owed to his physical gifts and his ability to read and cover. At Marseille he partnered Basile Boli who sometimes need a little support in behind. But Mozer was still capable of attacking the first ball like few others and was imperious in the air owing to his superb spring. I'll quote this excellent Pat_Mustard post from a previous draft:

Pat_Mustard said:
This has been brought up a few times and its completely wide of the mark TBH. Mozer was a superb footballer, certainly the ball-player in the excellent Mozer/Basile Boli duo for Marseille, and regarded as a sweeper here. Chris Waddle includes him in his best XI of former teammates, saying this about him:



He's technically excellent and not only competent on the ball:

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but capable of absolute brilliance:

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Another goal from early in his career:

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I hope your players mistake him for a plodder as you've suggested and allow him time on the ball, as it'll make our transitions all the more effective.

As a side note, I mentioned in the OP that he had a freakishly great leap, and Waddle also alluded to his supremacy in the air:

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He's a superb fit defensively in terms of beating Artime to headers as well as a very competent ball player.
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Lots of respect for Moby's central midfield duo. Top stuff. But it'll be a battle royale in there with Falcão and Nestor Gonçalves. I have no hesitation in placing Goncalves in that company though, a serial winner who overcame the rest of South American and the best of Europe in the 1960s. Credit to anto as ever for illuminating the previously told but always worth revisiting backstory below:

Néstor Tito Gonçalves (Peñarol 1957-71)

In 1957, the club went into an economy drive, but it was clear that penny-pinching wasn’t going to also fix the problem of Nacional winning the last three league titles while the team transitioned. It was unacceptable. This prompted an initiative that would be the start of an ongoing advantage for Peñarol.

Uruguay has always been very Montevideo-centric since half the population live there. In fact, it is only in the last 20 years that teams outside the capital have participated in the Uruguayan League. But half the population doesn’t live there, and the brightest talents weren’t exactly urban types, so they created a formal (not fan-tip based) scout network to identify the best and brightest prospects from towns in the countryside.

This same approach would later be expanded when Real destroyed us (albeit, and crucially, with Tito injured) in the first Intercontinental Final. Their glamour, the way they had collected the best players imaginable, their entire setup… The Board decided the Argies and Brazilians would stay home, but the best of the rest of South America could be lured to come to Peñarol, as Uruguay was comparatively one of the wealthiest and so far the most successful football nation in the continent. And thus came the best players from Ecuador, Perú, Paraguay, Chile… That Peñarol side didn’t just boast the best of Uruguay, two best evers in their roles (nationally), but also the best player Ecuador and Chile ever had. Peñarol's 60s side boiled down to this: it was the "Rest of South America Select XI", playing together for a decade.

Anyhow, I digress, but in that trial run in early 1957, seven players were brought in and two of them would rightfully become club legends. They all went straight into the reserves for a bedding in period - with Cubilla famously complaining about it (“I didn’t leave my town to play for the Reserves”). The one that rose quicker went about things differently, working hard, always looking to learn from his seniors, and within six months everyone could tell that the massive gap left in midfield by Varela’s retirement was destined for him. The timing couldn’t be better, as captain Martínez was bound to have only 3-4 seasons left in him.

Legend has it that Obdulio Varela had left the club at the end of the 1956 season and hadn’t set foot in Las Acacias until he heard about this kid. He visited the club, spent a few hours with him and left for good never to return again safe in the knowledge that his legacy would be in good hands. His name was Néstor “Tito” Gonçalves, and by 1958 he was a nailed on starter. A one-club man, Gonçálves was a tough as nails defensive midfielder with an exceptional passing range, exactly what a deep-sitting counter-attacking side needed. With him from centre-to-left and Abbadie on the right, there was always a nearby outlet.

His arrival was a big contributing factor in kickstarting Peñarol’s most glorious and decorated period. Considered one of the 15 greatest teams of all time, his Peñarol went toe-to-toe regularly with Santos, Real Madrid and Benfica and delivered 9 league titles between 1958 and 1968, three Copa Libertadores wins, two Intercontinental Cup wins and the Intercontinental Cup Winners Supercup. It's on the back of this decade that when the IFFHS tallied up the scores Peñarol came first and was recognised as the Most Successful South American Club of the Century ("Champion of the Century").

His performance in the 1966 final decider is the stuff of legend. I'll have to write about that later but, with Peñarol 2-0 down halfway through the second half, it was his rearguard action (and assist to boot) that kickstarted an epic comeback. To this day an unlikely comeback turned into an onslaught and beating up of the rival is referred to as "ganar a lo Peñarol" (winning the Peñarol way). And to this day River Plate are referred to as "las gallinas" (chicken) for the manner of that defeat. River had everything: youth, a striker having a freak season (still the top scorer in a single Libertadores with 17), they were 2-0 up... What they lacked was the character to put up with the furious thrusts of a battle-hardened side leveraging their class, experience and sheer will to win. Spencer-Abbadie-Spencer-Rocha, 4-2. Is it any wonder what caught my imagination about United?

After retiring he stayed at the club as a coach, and has been heading Youth Development for almost fourty years now. He even managed to get his sperm to produce a CM who would be instrumental for Peñarol’s fifth Libertadores win in 1987*.

Legend.

fesin66.jpg

Speaking at the team hotel after beating Real in Madrid. Peñarol won 4-0 on aggregate. Hours earlier in the dressing room he commented: "I don't know about you, but that was way too easy", and they all agreed: the game against River had been the highlight of their careers.

*The venue for that game was once again Santiago de Chile, and a Peñarol side featuring Gonçalves Jr. and Matosas Jr. beat three-times consecutive finalists América de Cali, 1-0, scoring in the 119:42 min, when a draw after ET would have handed it to the Colombians.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
:lol: Sorry mate, I'd forgotten about that match. Bonus points for pairing him up with Godin!
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aye, makes it even better :D

Top stuff @Gio on Tito.



That Libertadores finals in 1966 was a great tie at the time.

Tito was the captain of the side which also boasted with players like Mazurka, Abbadie, Rocha, Spencer, Joya. But on the other end was also a very tough River side with Mas, Carrizo, Matosas, Cubilla.

Penarol was one of the greatest 60's side having appeared in 4 finals at the time but losing the previous two.

That playoff game above they were losing 2-0 at HT but have shown great character to pull it back to 2-2 and win it in ET.

I have the game on tape actually which was truly end to end stuff.
 
Really close game thinking about switching votes as I really love @Moby 's midfield. Hopefully he has some time to post to expand on his ideas and the game.
 
Gio said:
Man, Myth or a Legend - Ladislao Kubala
The man who built Camp Nou.

https://www.footbie.com/video/ladislao-kubala-fc-barcelona-legend

The title of Frederic Porta's 2012 biography of Kubala is "The Hero Who Changed Barca's History," and that phrase sums up his importance to the club. A before-and-after moment is marked by his arrival: Without him, Barcelona's trophy cabinet would be significantly less full, and without his ability to fill Les Corts to the rafters, the plans to build the Camp Nou may not have pressed ahead.

Credit to @Enigma_87
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Hi guys. Don't want to criticize because you all put a great effort in preparing the teams for the drafts and getting the pieces written about the history of some of those legends. It is really insightful and I have no doubt of the importance that for example Kubala presents in Barcelona history. But just to add my bit. Anytime I see those drafts and I see 50's or 60's footage I see how poor the football was at that time. So when you say you would put such player in today's game with the likes of Keane and Zidane the players from such distant eras would in my opinion have absolutely no impact on the game. If you watch the footage of Kubala and compare it to today's game it looks like a game of 50 years old pub players. No intensity, no running, poor defenders, lots of space, lots of time on the ball. You put Depay in this era and he would be talked in the same bracket as Maradona and Pele. The game is evolving at such pace that even 10 years back it makes a massive difference. Never mind 20-30 years back and more. You can't deny some of those players had all the natural talent in the world. But those attackers would be eaten alive by any half decent defenders in this age. And all the tough guys defenders and midfielders from that era would be red carded in a matter of minutes in today's game. So they would really have no impact.

Of course you can always argue that if those players had the facilities and training of today's athletes available they would be great and I get that. But to say Kubala at his peak would have any impact in today's game is just wishful thinking. :)
 
Wow. It seems the rules have changed: "Posters are not allowed to have living or stupid discussions to defend their teams"

harms said:
I would've liked to hear more about Mozer if possible? Haven't seen much of him to be honest
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I had Khurtsiliva in the past and struggled to find a single decent video!

By the way, impressive your videos about strelstov who was an option I did consider: 60,000 views is great :)
 
Ecstatic said:
I had Khurtsiliva in the past and struggled to find a single decent video!

By the way, impressive your videos about strelstov who was an option I did consider: 60,000 views is great :)
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Yeah, I don't think that there are any compilations of Khurtsilava's game. It's also generally harder to make one for a defender, when 90% of the time you just have to show that he had chosen the right position.

Most of those views are Russian — as you can imagine he is a mythical figure over here and there aren't much videos of him. Half of the comments are saying that they don't see what all the hype is about :lol: It's a shame that the most popular video is against France though, he was better against Austria.
 
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