The following match a team plays having just gotten a result against United - watch

Bastian

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I was thinking this last season. When we were beaten or dropped points where we shouldn't have it was often talked off by pundits and opposition managers like a great result but quite often that team would struggle in the following match. Which made me think if they had overestimated their recent achievement against a team that is very much a work in progress with a lot of ill-fitting pieces (and towards the end of last season and seemingly at the start of this season due to a commercial pre-season "a bit" off the pace).

I can remember at least four occasions, albeit not all victories against. The Wolves performance in the opening match this season was lauded all around and rightly so, they looked hungry and up for it and we looked leggy as f. But the following match they got smashed at home to Brighton 1-4. Now after Palace have beaten us 0-1 at Old Trafford they get a goalless draw at home to Forrest. Last season after Brighton beat us I think in April (could have been May) 1-0 if memory serves, they got smashed at home by Everton of all teams and after West Ham beat us (I think it was another 1-0) the were beaten at home by Brentford.

Beating United is not the scalp it was but somehow it still has that presentation by opposition managers and pundits. It's maybe this lazy logic of saying a team is worth 1billion or whatever while the minnows are worth a tenth of that, ignoring all context such as our horrific overspending on players, our lack of balance and non-existent long-term planning, the pressure at United vs. those other clubs etc.

You could argue it's about raising your game to beat United, but that's also a bit devoid of richer context.

Anyhow, I'm making this thread to keep an eye on results team gather after getting points off United.
 
This is something not particularly new. I recall in 2002, yes, (I know along time ago) but Bolton beat Unitied 1-0 at Old Trafford very early on in the season. Sam Alladyce (the Bolton Manager at the time) openly admitted that he would be surprised if Bolton won there next match. He also gave the running statistics of the Bolton players during this interview.

I know people take the piss out of Alladyce nowadays, but during this period he was prominent on data in relation to his team and the opposition. Also, like his friend Sir Alex, he knew what referees were likely give out yellows for various types of offences, and refs likely to give penalties during the match.
 
SAF said the same thing back in 96, that teams raise their game more against United than they do against other teams, that's why Keegan lost his rag with the "I would love it" rant!

I still think teams raise their game v United as we're still the biggest scalp in English football, even when the team is utter dogshit.

And what makes it worse now is that whereas in the past, most teams never really expected to get anything off us, especially in OT, now practically every team in the league comes to OT thinking they can get something!
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
SAF said the same thing back in 96, that teams raise their game more against United than they do against other teams, that's why Keegan lost his rag with the "I would love it" rant!

I still think teams raise their game v United as we're still the biggest scalp in English football, even when the team is utter dogshit.

And what makes it worse now is that whereas in the past, most teams never really expected to get anything off us, especially in OT, now practically every team in the league comes to OT thinking they can get something!
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It's also frustrating that our players seem to be constantly surprised by this, especially away from home.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
SAF said the same thing back in 96, that teams raise their game more against United than they do against other teams, that's why Keegan lost his rag with the "I would love it" rant!

I still think teams raise their game v United as we're still the biggest scalp in English football, even when the team is utter dogshit.

And what makes it worse now is that whereas in the past, most teams never really expected to get anything off us, especially in OT, now practically every team in the league comes to OT thinking they can get something!
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We literally went a year without defeat at OT until recently
 
Good idea.

Always feels like before the game the commentary says "X team hasn't won an Old Trafford since the invention of football.. proceed to win" then get battered the next week.
 
Big Andy said:
We literally went a year without defeat at OT until recently
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Last year's home record was exceptional, but in the decade since SAF retired it can't be denied that every Dog & Duck team that hadn't won in Old Trafford in 20, 30, f**king 50 years, started getting wins off us.
 
I'm not going to treat this thread with great professionalism, but Newcastle smashed by Everton 3-0 after beating us 1-0 at home.
 
I've thought this for years. Had a friend who claimed to have a betting strategy with this exact approach. If a team beats united, they rarely win the following game or so he claimed. (Top teams not included)
 
Bastian said:
I'm not going to treat this thread with great professionalism, but Newcastle smashed by Everton 3-0 after beating us 1-0 at home.
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They ran their socks off and pressed us like crazy at the weekend. They had nothing left today.
 
TheGodsInRed said:
They ran their socks off and pressed us like crazy at the weekend. They had nothing left today.
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4th game in a row with the same outfield players. Played PSG away midweek too.

Newcastle and Spurs have injuries like we've had and play badly. Who knew that would happen?
 
Well we haven't been very good so you don't have to be a great team to beat us/play well against us at times.

Teams are also where they are because they're inconsistent. Newcastle lost to Bournemouth after beating Arsenal as well as losing tonight after beating us.
 
Yorke to Cole said:
This is something not particularly new. I recall in 2002, yes, (I know along time ago) but Bolton beat Unitied 1-0 at Old Trafford very early on in the season. Sam Alladyce (the Bolton Manager at the time) openly admitted that he would be surprised if Bolton won there next match. He also gave the running statistics of the Bolton players during this interview.

I know people take the piss out of Alladyce nowadays, but during this period he was prominent on data in relation to his team and the opposition. Also, like his friend Sir Alex, he knew what referees were likely give out yellows for various types of offences, and refs likely to give penalties during the match.
Click to expand...
Bit of a sidetrack to the thread but Big Sam earlier on was genuinely a very progressive manager. As time went on (and being honest as he worked with relatively weaker and weaker teams) he resorted to the most risk adverse, percentage based long ball football.

I would agree re thread title though, pundits used to even talk about it back in the day, ‘United coming to town’ was a genuine thing. I guess if someone can be bothered they can go look at the data for Pool’s dominant team that preceded ours and see if they had a similar thing happen against them.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Bit of a sidetrack to the thread but Big Sam earlier on was genuinely a very progressive manager. As time went on (and being honest as he worked with relatively weaker and weaker teams) he resorted to the most risk adverse, percentage based long ball football.

I would agree re thread title though, pundits used to even talk about it back in the day, ‘United coming to town’ was a genuine thing. I guess if someone can be bothered they can go look at the data for Pool’s dominant team that preceded ours and see if they had a similar thing happen against them.
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I absolutely agree. As I say he seems a bit of comic figure nowadays due to various issues such as England, his general use of language makes him appear archaic etc. However, he was very much at the forefront of data, statistics, positional awareness etc, particularly when he was at Bolton.

I recall he had headsets during matches so he could I teract with coaches and he was the first to expose the alterations to the offside rule that favoured defences during the attacking teams set pieces . Before the free kick was being taken, it was he that tell his strikers to stand in an offside position in order to create indecision within the opposing team defending that free kick.

Because the rule favoured the defense allowing them to move their line high up, he would get someone like Kevin Davies and perhaps one other to deliberately stand 1 or 2 yards offside and push up just as the kick is being taken. Shortly after, Van Nistelrooy started doing this as well.

I remember asking my Dad a brief time after the World Cup Semi Final between England and Croatia "If you had the same circumstances of England v Croatia, the former being 1-0 up with a little over 20 minutes to go with Sam Alladyce in charge, does he lose it?"

My Dad, looked at me and responded "probably not".

To this day, I firmly believe Alladyce makes the changes and tactical alterations to see that match out.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Bit of a sidetrack to the thread but Big Sam earlier on was genuinely a very progressive manager. As time went on (and being honest as he worked with relatively weaker and weaker teams) he resorted to the most risk adverse, percentage based long ball football.

I would agree re thread title though, pundits used to even talk about it back in the day, ‘United coming to town’ was a genuine thing. I guess if someone can be bothered they can go look at the data for Pool’s dominant team that preceded ours and see if they had a similar thing happen against them.
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The 'welcome to English football counter press'. Make it go long and fight for the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th ball in the opposition half :drool:
 
Probably a coincidence, but interesting nonetheless.

Liverpool: After the 7-0 early on in March, immediately lost their following match against Bournemouth and didn't win again until mid-April.

Brighton: After their win at OT this season, immediately lost their following match against AEK Athens (at home), going winless for 6 more games after that to include a 6-1 defeat against Aston Villa

Crystal Palace: After their win at OT this season, 1 win in 8 games

City: After the 3-0 at OT, 1 win in 5 league games (especially terrible for their standards) - although the 1 win came immediately after their win against us.
 
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Oscar Bonavena said:
SAF said the same thing back in 96, that teams raise their game more against United than they do against other teams, that's why Keegan lost his rag with the "I would love it" rant!

I still think teams raise their game v United as we're still the biggest scalp in English football, even when the team is utter dogshit.

And what makes it worse now is that whereas in the past, most teams never really expected to get anything off us, especially in OT, now practically every team in the league comes to OT thinking they can get something!
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We're pretty unique in that we're easily the most high profile club in the doldrums. Probably the biggest possible name out there to have had a fall from grace, so clubs still (and I think will always) play against the name and play with relentless effort against us. However we're no longer good enough to warrant that so more often than not we will lose/draw those games.

It also damages any attempts for us as a club to steadily improve because stats-wise we're probably progressing and playing at the same rate as some of the other sides but our huge profile as a club does not allow us to get away with the losses that the likes of Newcastle, Brighton, etc.. get way less criticism for. So every time we do look like we might be doing something decent, one loss means the wheels come off, so we're never really given that leeway to have bumps along the road. Add that to the fact there are definitely some in the media (one admitted to Ten Hag) that are desperate for us to fail. So we're kind of cursed in a way. We will never be left alone enough to steadily progress into the side we want to be.
 
Solius said:
We're pretty unique in that we're easily the most high profile club in the doldrums. Probably the biggest possible name out there to have had a fall from grace, so clubs still (and I think will always) play against the name and play with relentless effort against us. However we're no longer good enough to warrant that so more often than not we will lose/draw those games.

It also damages any attempts for us as a club to steadily improve because stats-wise we're probably progressing and playing at the same rate as some of the other sides but our huge profile as a club does not allow us to get away with the losses that the likes of Newcastle, Brighton, etc.. get way less criticism for. So every time we do look like we might be doing something decent, one loss means the wheels come off, so we're never really given that leeway to have bumps along the road. Add that to the fact there are definitely some in the media (one admitted to Ten Hag) that are desperate for us to fail. So we're kind of cursed in a way. We will never be left alone enough to steadily progress into the side we want to be.
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Yes, good points. The two teams you've mentioned, Brighton and Newcastle, have had some horrific results this season, the type of which Ten Hag would be slaughtered for, but De Zerbi and Howe don't get a fraction of the same scrutiny.
 
Newcastle are a classic example of a team who would rather beat United 3-0 and then lose to Everton and Spurs in the next two games, as opposed to losing to us and winning those next two.

I'd feel cheated as a fan. They have beaten United twice this season, beaten City, come within a mad two minutes of beating Liverpool and PSG and actually beat PSG 4-1....yet they're still effectively midtable and odds-on to go out the Champions League in the group stages.
 
Surely Bournemouth has to beat Luton at home now else this becomes bona fide fact
 
Lentwood said:
Newcastle are a classic example of a team who would rather beat United 3-0 and then lose to Everton and Spurs in the next two games, as opposed to losing to us and winning those next two.

I'd feel cheated as a fan. They have beaten United twice this season, beaten City, come within a mad two minutes of beating Liverpool and PSG and actually beat PSG 4-1....yet they're still effectively midtable and odds-on to go out the Champions League in the group stages.
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All but one of those games mentioned (Cup game at OT) were at home. They are really good at home and terrible away.
 
I think people assume its simply opposition being more up for it, wanting to beat United because of the status of the club.

However, I think there's more to it. It's also that they believe they can win. They know the blueprint to do so, theyve seen other teams do it, theyve likely done it themselves fairly recently. In our hey day, we beat teams in the tunnel. City do the same to some teams in the past few years. Opponents are nervy and realistically hoping to avoid a thrashing, so they hesitate, sit off, get caught in two minds, make panicked decisions, lose momntum, lose confidence. Against us, they smell blood, they are alert, confident, on the front foot, clear in their thinking and they gain momentum. Not because we're the Great Manchester United. It's because they know we're there for the taking.
 
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