The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Round 1 - P-Nut0712 vs. prath92

[green_smiley]

TEAM P-NUT0712

VS

TEAM PRATH92/KM

TACTICS TEAM P-NUT0712

Key roles

J.Boateng - Sweeper - Look to utilise his long range passing.
Ocwirk - Anchor - Prowl the space in front of my defence putting out fires.
Iniesta - Playmaker - Looking to link with Ronaldo and Vieri. Will run the attacking phase of my team.
Vieri - Target man - Hold the ball up and look to link with players in and around him.

Tactics - Counter attack

Team will work on fast transitions. J.Boateng and Ocwirk have fantastic long range passing to get us up field quickly, targeting our wing backs or Vieri.

N.Santos - Iniesta - Ronaldo

The left hand side is my teams strong point. The greatest ever attacking left back, aided by being moved into a wing back role will provide the width, Iniesta the creativity and Ronaldo the magic.

Ronaldo Vieri partnership. It's a partnership that has a bit of everything and would cause absolute nightmares for defences. Ronaldo coming from slightly deeper will look to latch on to flick ons and knockdowns and when running at the defence is bound to cause problems.

Lesser known players profiles.

Melchiot - Playing as either a right back or centre back he will slot in well as part of a back 3. He's adept at defending both wide and centrally which is a key consideration for the wide centre back spots.

Arce - Nominally a right back he will have added protection here featuring in a back 5 instead. He was known for his dangerous delivery from free kicks and his crosses will be a good supply line for Vieri.

Ocwirk - One of Austrias greatest ever players and helped to define what the holding midfield role has become today. His consistency in passing, especially over longer ranges led to him being nicknamed Clockwork by the English media.


TACTICS PRATH92/KM

Team Roles

Gordon Banks - Goalkeeper
Pietro Vierchowod - Stopper/Sweeper
Thiago Silva - Stopper/Sweeper
Denis Irwin - Right Back
Eric Abidal - Left Back
Gennaro Gattuso - Defensive Midfielder
Paul Ince - Box to Box Midfielder
Mario Coluna - Central Midfielder
Rai - Attacking midfielder
Socrates - Attacking midfielder
Denis Law - Centre Forward

Why we will win

1. Solid defence

We have a very reliable defence. Gordon Banks is one of the GOAT keepers. Vierchowod was someone who Maradona found it difficult to play against and Thiago Silva is probably the best in the current generation.Both Abidal and Irwin are not only great defensively but also attack very well having been instrumental to many attacks for Barcelona and United trebles respectively.

2. Complementary midfield

Gattuso may not be the biggest name but he certainly did a wonderful job, being key in Milan reaching three CL finals and Italy winning the World Cup in 2006. Paul Ince was a top B2B of the 90s and could cover both boxes quite well. Mario Coluna was an exceptional CM with great vision in attack to match his work rate and hard work. They have clear roles with little overlap.

3. Potent Attack

With Rai and Socrates pulling the strings behind Denis Law, and with Coluna and Ince joining in with ample support from Abidal and Irwin, we have enough attacking potency to win the game. Law was one of the most lethal strikers of his time and Socrates and Rai were incredibly gifted playmakers key to Brazilian teams of their generation.

 

[green_smiley]

Good luck @P-Nut0712 @prath92 @KM

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Think P-Nut edges this one because of player quality. Nilton/Iniesta will be a kickass flank and with R9 up there, they edge this one out.
Prath/KM's team is lacks width and will play through the middle and P-Nut's set up counters that perfectly. I think setting up Coluna behind Gattuso/Ince will be more balanced as Gattuso is your usual pivot type DM.

.......Coluna.......
....Ince....Gattuso

 

[harms]

Kevin-Prince Boateng, ffs
Not a fan of either side to be honest. P-Nut's team is easier to visualise, but then he has 1,5 sheep

 

[Physiocrat]

Think P-Nut edges this one because of player quality. Nilton/Iniesta will be a kickass flank and with R9 up there, they edge this one out.
Prath/KM's team is lacks width and will play through the middle and P-Nut's set up counters that perfectly. I think setting up Coluna behind Gattuso/Ince will be more balanced as Gattuso is your usual pivot type DM.

.......Coluna.......
....Ince....Gattuso

From what I've seen of Coluna he's more of a box-to-box type with decent passing range. I reckon either a flat midfield three or Ince as DM - he's more disciplined than Gattuso

 

[Physiocrat]

@P-Nut0712 Any more on Rai? I don't know much about him

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From what I've seen of Coluna he's more of a box-to-box type with decent passing range. I reckon either a flat midfield three or Ince as DM - he's more disciplined than Gattuso

Well of the 3, he's got the best attack contribution imo followed by maybe Gattuso. None of them are pivots so partnering them up gives them space to move up with other holding.

 

[P-Nut]

@P-Nut0712 Any more on Rai? I don't know much about him

Not on my team mate.

 

[Physiocrat]

Not on my team mate.

Whoops. @prath92 @KM any information on Rai?

 

[P-Nut]

Few points to make...

K.P.B whilst being practically a sheep I'll admit his deficiencies are protected here in having 2 world class players with him in midfield.

He'll be used purely for his running strength through midfield and not much else. I'd back Iniesta and Ocwirk to run that midfield by themselves.

My attack vs KM/Prath defence.

Vieri is the type of striker that will happily sit up top against two defenders and use his strength to try and occupy them both. That allows Ronaldo to pull towards either full back and create plenty of space around him. With Iniesta pulling the strings and Santos ensuring the defence can't become too compacted that spells danger.

My defence vs prath/km attack

His attack is all positioned narrow, that suits 3 at the back perfectly as it allows me to compress the defence when out of possession and suffocate the space. Ocwirk will prowl in front of the box and with no recognised playmaker he should be able to put out most fires before they reach my backline.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Prath/KM's team is lacks width and will play through the middle

Was it @Tuppet who included section explaining width in his tactic last draft knowing that you would say exactly this?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Whoops. @prath92 @KM any information on Rai?

Rai was an attacking midfielder and very important to Sao Paulo during Tele Santana's time there where Tele built a powerful side that defeated Cruyff's Barcelona and Capello's AC Milan in consecutive Intercontinental Cups. In my controversial opinion Sao Paulo was the best side in the world in the early 1990s under Tele.

He was Man of the Match and scored two goals against Cruyff's Barcelona Dream Team in the 1992 Intercontinental Cup leading Sao Paolo to victory over the Champions League winners. He won a transfer to PSG where @Ecstatic can tell more.

Here is good profile
https://www.imortaisdofutebol.com/2012/10/01/craque-imortal-rai/

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Not on my team mate.

You should have said "he's shit"?

 

[P-Nut]

You should have said "he's shit"?

That would be ungentlemanly and that isn't in my nature

But yeah he's crap

 

[prath92]

Think P-Nut edges this one because of player quality. Nilton/Iniesta will be a kickass flank and with R9 up there, they edge this one out.
Prath/KM's team is lacks width and will play through the middle and P-Nut's set up counters that perfectly. I think setting up Coluna behind Gattuso/Ince will be more balanced as Gattuso is your usual pivot type DM.

.......Coluna.......
....Ince....Gattuso

Socrates played the 82 World Cup as a RW. Here even though he starts off behind the striker he will drift wide like he did there and Coluna and/or Ince will join attack in that instance. With Irwin also overlapping that takes Santos and Vidic to deal with this which leaves Rai and Denis Law up against boateng and melchiot (sheep) so I back our players to do well there

His right flank is practically non existent too. Arce wasn’t a particularly attacking RB and he is supported by KP Boateng(?)

Both Coluna and Ince were box to box midfielders with Coluna more involved in attacks than Ince. I don’t think it will be really easy to dominate a midfield against them.

 

[prath92]

Vieri is the type of striker that will happily sit up top against two defenders and use his strength to try and occupy them both.

He is up against Vierchowod who, according to Maradona, was the toughest defender he played against. I don’t think Vieri and Ronaldo will find it easy against him especially with silva supporting him

 

[prath92]

Whoops. @prath92 @KM any information on Rai?

An article about him

 

[KM]

Removing my name from the title as I was there for the drafting only.

 

[Indnyc]

Think P-Nut edges this one because of player quality. Nilton/Iniesta will be a kickass flank and with R9 up there, they edge this one out.
Prath/KM's team is lacks width and will play through the middle and P-Nut's set up counters that perfectly. I think setting up Coluna behind Gattuso/Ince will be more balanced as Gattuso is your usual pivot type DM.

.......Coluna.......
....Ince....Gattuso

Don’t think they lack width.. Both Abidal and Irwin can provide that.. Also Socrates will drift wide..

On the other hand ocwirk looks overworked in that midfield. KP boateng isn’t going to have much impact

It’s closer than it initially looks

 

[idmanager]

Don’t think they lack width.. Both Abidal and Irwin can provide that.. Also Socrates will drift wide..

On the other hand ocwirk looks overworked in that midfield. KP boateng isn’t going to have much impact

It’s closer than it initially looks

Its arguable. The Rai+Socrates led attack would ideally want fullbacks that are way more attack oriented than Irwin/Abidal.
Especially with P-nut lacking any wingers, that would have been a game winning delta IMO.

Coming to the game, the things I love most are Vieri+Ronaldo combo and Prath/KM's defense as a whole.
Both the midfields are not perfectly balanced, but strictly workable.

Not a fan of P-Nut's defense and not sure about Rai/Socrates attack. Need to hear in more detail about how they are supposed to work here and compliment each other.
Again, both look workable to an extent but don't like the dynamics too much.

Tough to decide as the number of pros and cons on each side look same to me although in different areas of the pitch.

 

[mazhar13]

Don’t think they lack width.. Both Abidal and Irwin can provide that.. Also Socrates will drift wide..

Well, I wouldn't say that Irwin and Abidal can be the primary providers of width. Both are better off with a winger ahead of them who can stretch the field. Whilst Socrates was more involved in the flanks in the Brazil '82 side, he was still a roaming, playmaking midfielder who took up positions according to the situation on the pitch. He would often appear on the left flank as often as he did on the right, which was as often as he appeared higher up the pitch in the middle as he did deeper on the pitch. That varied movement will pose different problems for P-nut's side, but if Prath had a proper wing backs, his side would be much more of a threat. Having said that, Rai and Socrates can still pose problems in their free roles particularly when they're supported quite well by Ince and Coluna.

For me, the deciding factor is P-nut's obviously weak right side. Melchiot-Arce-KPB is quite a weak right side, overall, and that sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

 

[P-Nut]

He is up against Vierchowod who, according to Maradona, was the toughest defender he played against. I don’t think Vieri and Ronaldo will find it easy against him especially with silva supporting him

Oh yeah don’t get me wrong I’m not doubting the quality of the defence. It’s just that the set up is perfect for Ronaldo to have a big impact. Vieiri is tough work and needs attention so will prevent the defence from being able to ignore him whilst the ball is wide, Santos to Vieri would be a great source for goals otherwise.

 

[P-Nut]

Well, I wouldn't say that Irwin and Abidal can be the primary providers of width. Both are better off with a winger ahead of them who can stretch the field. Whilst Socrates was more involved in the flanks in the Brazil '82 side, he was still a roaming, playmaking midfielder who took up positions according to the situation on the pitch. He would often appear on the left flank as often as he did on the right, which was as often as he appeared higher up the pitch in the middle as he did deeper on the pitch. That varied movement will pose different problems for P-nut's side, but if Prath had a proper wing backs, his side would be much more of a threat. Having said that, Rai and Socrates can still pose problems in their free roles particularly when they're supported quite well by Ince and Coluna.

For me, the deciding factor is P-nut's obviously weak right side. Melchiot-Arce-KPB is quite a weak right side, overall, and that sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Yeah it’s undoubtedly a weak point, the lucky thing isn’t the lack of width and a real goal scoring threat pushing up from that LCM spot. It only really has Abidal, Ince and Rai to deal with.

Praths stronger side is his right which matches up against the stronger left side of my team. Vidic, Santos, Iniesta and R9.

 

[Enigma_87]

P-nut's right side is really worrying. Melchiot, Arce and helped by KP Boateng dosn't really imply quality and really is sticking like a sore thumb.

It's close as Fenomeno, Iniesta and Vieri have the quality to make the difference, but a midfield of Gattuso/Ince and Coluna is more likelier to control the game than the opposition.

I'd probably switch Melchiot and Vidic (I know that they are both playing at their best positions) as Vidic is more likely to offer a better cover on that right flank than Melchiot.

I also like Law against P-nut defence, but on the other hand there is Fenomeno in the other team.

Will follow the discussions tomorrow to see if @P-Nut0712 can change my mind here...

 

[P-Nut]

P-nut's right side is really worrying. Melchiot, Arce and helped by KP Boateng dosn't really imply quality and really is sticking like a sore thumb.

It's close as Fenomeno, Iniesta and Vieri have the quality to make the difference, but a midfield of Gattuso/Ince and Coluna is more likelier to control the game than the opposition.

I'd probably switch Melchiot and Vidic (I know that they are both playing at their best positions) as Vidic is more likely to offer a better cover on that right flank than Melchiot.

I also like Law against P-nut defence, but on the other hand there is Fenomeno in the other team.

Will follow the discussions tomorrow to see if @P-Nut0712 can change my mind here...

Read my latest post on why I am not too concerned here. Just addressed the issue.

 

[idmanager]

I'd probably switch Melchiot and Vidic (I know that they are both playing at their best positions) as Vidic is more likely to offer a better cover on that right flank than Melchiot.

This. If its not too late, this would be the first thing that should be done. Santos+Vidic on the left is kinda wasting resources when the pickings are slim.

 

[P-Nut]

This. If its not too late, this would be the first thing that should be done. Santos+Vidic on the left is kinda wasting resources when the pickings are slim.

Nah I wouldn’t change it now even if I could. Socrates is more of a threat than Rai and as Prath himself has admitted, although Coluna isn’t some amazing attacking talent, he is greater than Ince going forward and they are positioned perfectly to be dealt with by the stronger side of my defence.

 

[idmanager]

Nah I wouldn’t change it now even if I could. Socrates is more of a threat than Rai and as Prath himself has admitted, although Coluna isn’t some amazing attacking talent, he is greater than Ince going forward and they are positioned perfectly to be dealt with by the stronger side of my defence.

That is fair enough. Understand the prioritizing.

 

[Indnyc]

Abidal played in a Barcelona system without wingers so I don’t think he really needs a winger in front

I am still undecided as Ronaldo and Vieri is a very strong attack but feel prath has a more stable defense

 

[idmanager]

Just realized both teams sport Yashin and Banks. Poor bastards don't get a mention even if the sheeps do

 

[P-Nut]

Just realized both teams sport Yashin and Banks. Poor bastards don't get a mention even if the sheeps do

I’d have definitely been mentioning it if I was up against a team with a poor keeper, but I can’t fault Banks even if Yashin is the GOAT

 

[prath92]

Oh yeah don’t get me wrong I’m not doubting the quality of the defence. It’s just that the set up is perfect for Ronaldo to have a big impact. Vieiri is tough work and needs attention so will prevent the defence from being able to ignore him whilst the ball is wide, Santos to Vieri would be a great source for goals otherwise.

This is what maradona said about Vierchowod

Vierchowod was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn't stand him anymore

This was also reflected by Gary Lineker, another prolific scorer of the time

Both Vierchowod and Thiago silva were great in the air and therefore it’s not going to be easy for both Vieri and Ronaldo to make an impact from crosses

 

[P-Nut]

This is what maradona said about Vierchowod



This was also reflected by Gary Lineker, another prolific scorer of the time

Both Vierchowod and Thiago silva were great in the air and therefore it’s not going to be easy for both Vieri and Ronaldo to make an impact from crosses

I know that’s the point I was making; if the defenders had of been of lesser quality I would have played on the Santos to Vieri link. As that is negated by their strength in the air I didn’t bother to mention it as an easy route to goal. The best route will be isolating Silva with Ronaldo which I’m sure you will admit is a mismatch that only the great defenders can overcome.

 

[Physiocrat]

@prath92 @oneniltothearsenal Thanks for the links. I do think it would have been awesome if would have been called Xenophon

 

[Ecstatic]

I don't know about Irwin but Abidal was really good offensively.

Rai was an attacking midfielder and very important to Sao Paulo during Tele Santana's time there where Tele built a powerful side that defeated Cruyff's Barcelona and Capello's AC Milan in consecutive Intercontinental Cups. In my controversial opinion Sao Paulo was the best side in the world in the early 1990s under Tele.

He was Man of the Match and scored two goals against Cruyff's Barcelona Dream Team in the 1992 Intercontinental Cup leading Sao Paolo to victory over the Champions League winners. He won a transfer to PSG where @Ecstatic can tell more.

Here is good profile
https://www.imortaisdofutebol.com/2012/10/01/craque-imortal-rai/

The South American Footballer of the Year 1992 was mainly a central playmaker with excellent passing skills and vision. Decent stats with Brazil: 17 goals in 49 games. His speed isn't his biggest strength though.




That said, he probably played a relatively similar role with Brazil 94. It was between him and Mazinho for the hybrid role

 

[Ecstatic]

As always, my vote is always subject to the evolution of discussions.

My vote is driven by my understanding of your central midfields.

Removing my name from the title as I was there for the drafting only.

Why did you take Riquelme while you already had Rai and Socrates?

I was also surprised to see EAP targeting Figo despite having Beckham, Nedved, Cr7, Maradona, RVN

 

[prath92]

Why did you take Riquelme while you already had Rai and Socrates?

It's like EAP

Tbh we took riquelme in the Copa América round. He played against Thiago Silva in one of the SFs so we picked them

 

[P-Nut]

As always, my vote is always subject to the evolution of discussions.

My vote is driven by my understanding of your central midfields.



Why did you take Riquelme while you already had Rai and Socrates?

I was also surprised to see EAP targeting Figo despite having Beckham, Nedved, Cr7, Maradona, RVN

My midfield is quite simple to understand really.

Ocwirk - firefighter
Boateng - energy and drive
Iniesta - Created

Obviously most of my attacks will be built down my left side where although Irwin is consistently a 7/10 Santos regularly produced to a higher level. Aided by Iniesta we should have lots of joy here.

 

[Ecstatic]

Like harms, I'm not fully convinced by both strategies.

I like the players of P-nut but the central midfield is disappointing. So, prath92 has a team more inclined to set the tempo and win the battle midfield: Gattuso focused on Iniesta and sometimes Ronaldo, 2 B2B, some collective playmakers...

Sad because there are brilliant players like Nilton Santos and Vieri-Ronaldo a glamourous duo in the late 90s when they were playing for Inter. Injuries put an end to this duo IIRC

Tbh we took him in the Copa América round.

I understand!

 

[prath92]

I don't know about Irwin but Abidal was really good offensively.

For me Irwin was exceptional as a full back. Very balanced. He wasn’t super pacy but had an intelligence that made him really successful Both as a LB and a RB. He was excellent with his set pieces too. I think it’s unfair to call him a defensive full back.