The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - Gio vs. Tuppet

[green_smiley]

TEAM GIO

VS

TEAM TUPPET

TACTICS GIO

WHAT ARE WE ALL ABOUT:

Two complementary full-backs in the swashbuckling flank-dominator Roberto Carlos and the defensively watertight Berti Vogts balance both the defence and the flanks. Ahead of Scotland's finest ever keeper Andy Goram, the central axis has been bolstered through the immaculate Bobby Moore and the serial Olympics, World Cup and Copa winner Jose Nasazzi. This bulletproof and highly complementary partnership are well placed to close down even the high level of attacking quality sported by Tuppet.

The heart of the team is the murderous midfield partnership of Graeme Souness and Roy Keane. It's hard to envisage a more uncompromising and dominating pair who will provide the platform for the flair in front of them. Michael Laudrup is the centre-point of the attack, floating inbetween the lines to connect the midfield with the options in front of him. His interplay with his brother Brian was a joy to watch for Denmark and they are well set to repeat that here. So too was his connection with el pistoleiro Hristo Stoichkov, who will relish the overlaps of Carlos and the Joya-esque partnership he can strike up with Spencer.

WHY WE WIN:

• A defence better equipped to dealing with the opposition attack. We have a rock-solid defensive unit that matches up well to the attack it faces. Considering specific head-to-heads, both Carlos and Jairzinho are proper athletes and Moore is poised to reprise his 1970 role to shut down that side of the attack if needed. In the middle, up until 1960 at least, both Puskas and Nasazzi could lay claim to being the respective GOAT of their position and I fancy a cancelling out, particularly positionally with the right-centre-half Nasazzi and the left-sided and inside-left channel dropping Puskas. On the right, Vogts and presumably Giggs would have a good old tussle with little spare change between the two of them.
• By contrast, I think the Wright and Olsen partnership might struggle - relatively speaking at least - with the quality they will meet head on. Wright was well known for punching above his height in the air, but even then at 5ft 8' against the springy Spencer, there might be a challenge. That's probably compounded when 3 of Tuppet's back 4 are 5ft 8' or smaller (4 out of 5 if we count the even shorter Monti).
• Serious synergy in the attack. Laudrup and Stoichkov were incredible together and the Laudrup brothers were a beacon of light in the otherwise dreary Danish dull-as-dishwasher side of the mid-1990s.
• Balance. Natural partnerships all over the park and a full range of threats capable of hitting the five attacking channels (outside-left - Carlos; inside-left - Stoichkov; central - Spencer; inside-right - Laudrup; outside-right - Laudrup). In fairness, Tuppet's team is typically well designed and my only minor quibble might be the complementarity of Zico and Puskas in the same zone.
• A flexible midfield that can either soak up pressure and pounce on the break or take control and dominate proceedings. Either way they will manage the game to protect the defence and provide the early service for the attack to shine.

TACTICS TUPPET

Tactics:
We're continuing to play in 4-2-3-1 from last round. Both of our changes are evolutionary upgrading two key positions in the attack, with Zico an upgrade over Cubillas and Jarizinho improving upon Julinho.

Puskas / Zico - Puskas and Zico are obviously my team's best selling point as they are the two best attackers on the pitch. This gives me quite an edge, especially in goal scoring department. Since Pele / Romario are blocked Puskas is the most prolific player in the draft with an amazing 746+ goals. Those goals include goals in world cup final, Olympic final, CL finals, match of the century and various other important matches. And Puskas did it all while not being the sole goal scoring focus of the team. He was an excellent provider as well and an extremely creative forward. He was infact part of two partnerships with Di Stefano & Kocsis, where the other partner was an extremely prolific goal scorer as well. He also linked fantastically with all time great goal scoring number 10s in Di Stefano & Hidegkuti.

This brings us to Zico, one of the all time greatest number 10 and an extremely potent goal scorer with 500+ goals to his name. Throughout his storied career he had plenty of great performances and I would remiss not to mention one of his best was against Souness' Liverpool which was the best team in Europe at that time. "I wanted to see how he would react to a physical challenge," the combative Scot said later. "But I couldn’t get close enough to him to find out." Here he has a harder work of facing not only Souness but Keane as well. But then again he is also serving Puskas with his through balls rather than Nunes. Together them two are my biggest selling points and why I believe we'll edge this game.

Jairzinho / Giggs - An argument could be made for Jairzinho being the third best attacker along with Stoichkov / Laudrup. Here he is in his 70 WC winning role, which fits his goalscoring instinct perfectly as when Puskas drops deep or left to create chances Jairzinho along with Zico would provide the goal scoring presence up top, just like he did in 70 and scored in every single world cup match.

Giggs on the left side provide a genuine hard working wing presence to balance the goal scoring GOAT trio. A peak Giggs was one of the finest left wingers of all time, his balance was just amazing and as SAF said he can leave any defender in twisted blood. He can stretch the opposition defense, create openings with his crossing and general playmaking and provide ferocious pace for counter. Together Jairzinho "The Hurricane" & Giggs have pace & physicality in spades, which would help in counter.

Masopust / Monti - From our clearly superior attack, we move on to the area where both teams are on relatively equally footing. Souness - Keane is a great partnership but I would like to remind that there is only one Ballon D'or winning midfielder on the park who dragged his team to a world cup final. Masopust is the best midfielder in the park especially when you consider his contribution in attack and creativity that neither Souness nor Keane can match.

Monti as a superlative defensive midfielder fits right next to him. The fabled Doble Ancho is the perfect destroyer to limit the impact of Laudrup. Monti's various achievements are well known in draft circles, he is along with Varela & Redondo the best SA defensive midfielder and was a great leader to boot. His world cup win where he marked great Sindelaar out of the game in SF is famous but he also led Argentina as Captain to a World cup final before that and was one of the first South American to ply their trade in Europe with Juventus where he won 4 Serie A and became their captain. This midfield provides a perfect platform for my attack and a great shield for my defense.

Defense: Lastly to the area where Gio's team is better. I would try and emphasize that the difference is not particularly big and does not bridge the gap that is between our attacks. Morten Olsen is my ball playing defender and Billy Wright is the stopper. Gio's got Moore who is the best defender on the pitch but as the second greatest British defender Wright is not far behind. As a pure stopper there are few who are unquestionably better than him. Wright was the one who came second in a Ballon D'or vote, a feat later repeated by Moore as well. He was dominant in air with a prodigious leap and faced some of the all time greatest header in his career with consistently playing and holding his own against the likes of Lofthouse, Lowtawn & Charles. There is not much between our Stoppers Wright & Nassazi, two of the finest captains. Olsen was a brilliant ball playing defender and slots in perfectly with Wright, even if he is a step below Moore.

D. Santos is the GOAT right back and should be able to handle Stoichkov, while Lizarazu was a fantastically balanced full back. Both would be playing in a balanced full back role with looking to move forward in attack but still putting their defensive duties first.

Creativity & handling Laudrup Sr: It seem to me that most of Gio's side game would flow through Laudrup. Monti is an ideal marker to reduce his effectiveness, which could starve Team Gio of creativity. Stoichkov / Keane / Souness are good players but neither usually takes the role of primary playmaker. On the other hand in my team while Zico is the main playmaker, even if he is taken out by Souness / Keane double team (and it would require a double team) I still have Masopust who was the fulcrum of Czech side and Puskas who was very creative and create his own chances.

Jairzinho against R. Carlos could be another profitable route for my team. Carlos was a better defender than he gets credit for, he would still have a torrid time against an all time great like Jarizinho due to his attacking game.

 

[green_smiley]

Good luck @Gio @Tuppet

 

[Gio]

All the best @Tuppet. Should be a good game this.

 

[Gio]

A little bit on the rationale for Bobby Moore's selection aside from the obvious. He's on the left-hand side of the centre-back duo because that was his role in 1966 and 1970 and I don't think there is anyone better at making that specific cover from the middle to the left. Look at how he shuts down Pele and repeatedly gets across to close out Jairzinho after Terry Cooper goes AWOL.

 

[harms]

Is this the Fernandez in goal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Fernández

 

[Gio]

Monti as a superlative defensive midfielder fits right next to him. The fabled Doble Ancho is the perfect destroyer to limit the impact of Laudrup. Monti's various achievements are well known in draft circles, he is along with Varela & Redondo the best SA defensive midfielder and was a great leader to boot. His world cup win where he marked great Sindelaar out of the game in SF is famous but he also led Argentina as Captain to a World cup final before that and was one of the first South American to ply their trade in Europe with Juventus where he won 4 Serie A and became their captain.

By many accounts Monti kicked lumps out of Sindelaar and was allowed to do so as per the lax rules of the time. Whether he could replicate that with a more balanced referee against the silky smooth Laudrup is questionable. This type of footwork could see him evade challenge after challenge (or get fouled and see Monti pick up bookings):

 

[Gio]

Billy Wright is the stopper. Gio's got Moore who is the best defender on the pitch but as the second greatest British defender Wright is not far behind. As a pure stopper there are few who are unquestionably better than him. Wright was the one who came second in a Ballon D'or vote, a feat later repeated by Moore as well. He was dominant in air with a prodigious leap and faced some of the all time greatest header in his career with consistently playing and holding his own against the likes of Lofthouse, Lowtawn & Charles. There is not much between our Stoppers Wright & Nassazi, two of the finest captains.

Ranking the greatest British defenders of all time, I don't think that Wright would be quite that high.

Tier 1: Moore

Tier 2: Ferdinand

Then a squad of folk including Terry, Campbell, Hansen, Walker, Gough, Miller, McNeil, Wright, Franklin, Meiklejohn. Personal preferences within that of course, and Hansen could arguably go up a notch, but I think Rio stands out as the best of the modern era and proved himself at all levels.

As for the comparison with Nasazzi, I don't think that quite stands up either. Nasazzi's achievements outside the domestic game are unbelievable, surely the most decorated international defender of all time:
Uruguay

• FIFA World Cup: 1930
• Football at the Summer Olympics: 1924, 1928
• South American Championship: 1923, 1924, 1926, 1935

Individual

• Best player at the South American Championship: 1923, 1935
• Best player at the FIFA World Cup: 1930

Whereas Billy Wright achieved nothing of note outside the English game - 3 forgettable World Cup appearances in 1950 (crashing to that seminal defeat against the US), 1954 (leading a defence that conceded 8 goals in 3 games) and 1958 (another group stage exit albeit with a tighter defence). Inbetween times there are the 13 goals conceded in the 2 games against Hungary in 1953/54, which really showed the step up in class from the domestic English game to proper international competition. That's not to say Wright wasn't an impressive individual, but he has no team of the tournament nominations, no European competitions, far less the status of best defender and often best player awards that Nasazzi won in major international tournaments. Even his 2nd place in the Ballon D'Or in 1957 was on the back of 19 points (from 5 journalists) at the top of a pack a long way behind the 73 of Di Stefano. Still impressive to get that recongnition, but it's a long way from the array of achievements sported by Nasazzi.

 

[harms]

Went with Tuppet, but it's a close one for sure. Zico's proven record against Souness and a slightly better balanced midfield edged it for me.

And Puskas.

 

[2mufc0]

Sorry wrong thread.

 

[Gio]

Spencer (Cabeza Magica) v the midget defence

Imagine Alberto Spencer might get a little under-rated due to his obscure international career. But he's pretty much the all-time king of the Copa Libertadores, its highest ever scorer, and all done when the Copa was every bit as good as the European Cup (and probably a little bit better to be honest). He matches up well to the great forwards of the European Cup era such as Eusebio and Tuppet's Puskas in terms of performances at the top level. He was also the joint top all-time scorer in the Intercontinental Cup with Pele, sharing the Brazilian's tendency to turn over top European opposition when he had the chance to do so. A lot of that was down to his qualities - athleticism, spring, agility, pace, finishing quality - which were a cut above what most defenders were capable of dealing with at the time.

He's a bad match for a back line as diminutive as this one:

Lizarazu - 1.69m
Wright - 1.73m
Olsen - 1.86m
Djalma - 1.73m

Now despite his height Olsen's strengths weren't really in attacking the first ball or in the air, he was an excellent organiser and deep-lying playmaker who could march forward with the ball. Spencer is going to have a field day here. Especially with the guaranteed crossing routes from Stoichkov, Brian Laudrup and Roberto Carlos.

Someone that headed better than me was Spencer. I was good (in heading), but he was spectacular heading the ball. In general, he would do it with a burst, but without actually sprinting

Spoiler: Spencer leap and header

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @Gio

 

[Tuppet]

By many accounts Monti kicked lumps out of Sindelaar and was allowed to do so as per the lax rules of the time. Whether he could replicate that with a more balanced referee against the silky smooth Laudrup is questionable. This type of footwork could see him evade challenge after challenge (or get fouled and see Monti pick up bookings):

Its probably true that Monti's marking against Sindelar was harsh but it was a product of his time and I don't know how it would translate to modern day rules. But then since we are playing an all time draft we'll have to imagine everyone playing at their peak from their times and if we do that I have no trouble believing that he would stop Laurdup.

This is even more pertinent when in the next post you are bigging up Nasazzi, who's achievements are from the same time as Monti. So if Nasazzi is a GOAT defender than surely Monti must be considered in the same way, he has won a world cup, led his team to another 2 finals (counting 1928 Olympics), was in 2 times team of the tournaments & won Serie A 4 times etc. If you believe that Nasazzi can hang out with Puskas I have no trouble believing that Monti would dominate Laudrup, after all silky smooth footwork was also Sindelar's thing as well.

 

[Tuppet]

Rankings of British defenders is a subjective matter, I've seen folks saying here they would take Ferdinand over Moore etc, but overall I think I am not alone in ranking Wright as the best stopper that English football produced & historically the second best English defender. His achievements are in domestic circles and thats how it is for almost all the English greats from that time period. Be it Matthews, Finney, Lofthouse or Wright they all suffered in World cups, neither has the ToT recognition or any European trophies. From what I've read most of the blame usually go to the English Selection committee in world cups and after all its not like losing 1-0 to USA was a defensive problem.

In domestic scene however Wright's achievements are fantastic winning the league three time as well as an FA cup, he did not only got a second place on Ballon D'or in 1957, he was also FWA's footballer of the year in 1952, a feat that Moore also achieved later. He was also the leader of the mighty Wolves team which was considered the best in the world at its time and was a big reason behind the European cup (Champions league) to be started.

 

[harms]

He's a bad match for a back line as diminutive as this one:

Lizarazu - 1.69m
Wright - 1.73m
Olsen - 1.86m
Djalma - 1.73m

That's a very good argument, actually. I remember Wright winning plenty of headers in highlights but the average player was much shorter those days. Hm. Missed it in the OP because of the bloody fts and inches

Can't see your gif though, don't know if it's a problem on your end or on mine.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Interesting match. Zico and Puskas looks terrifying. Its true that Wright-Olsen isn't really the best aerial defense against the magic head but overall I think Zico and Puskas would probably score more frequently in a set of 10 matches than the Spencer tactic.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not sure Djalma is a good fit for Jairzinho. The latter was more of a 10/second-striker than a proper winger. He played more there at club level. In 1970 he still drifted in a lot hence all his goals but he had C.Alberto bombing forward.

So if Jairzinho stays further out wide than he'd like then that diminishes his goal threat. If he cuts in Djalma won't bomb on which leaves acres of space for R.Carlos on the break to dovetail with Stoichkov. I also agree with Gio that Spencer will have a better time against Olsen and Wright than Puskas will against Moore and Nasazzi. Also Stoichkov will be a serious goal threat. It isn't just Spencer on his own

 

[Gio]

Interesting match. Zico and Puskas looks terrifying. Its true that Wright-Olsen isn't really the best aerial defense against the magic head but overall I think Zico and Puskas would probably score more frequently in a set of 10 matches than the Spencer tactic.

The difference for me is that Puskas is squared up to Nasazzi who has strong enough credentials to match up to him, while Spencer is up against Wright who doesn't.

This is even more pertinent when in the next post you are bigging up Nasazzi, who's achievements are from the same time as Monti. So if Nasazzi is a GOAT defender than surely Monti must be considered in the same way, he has won a world cup, led his team to another 2 finals (counting 1928 Olympics), was in 2 times team of the tournaments & won Serie A 4 times etc.

Yes, it's certainly not a question of quality across eras. More about the style of play or defending and how that fits with Laudrup's elegance and ability to avoid lunging tackles. Even allowing Monti the scope to be more aggressive, it's worth highlighting that Laudrup himself excelled in a fairly negative and defender-friendly era.

Went with Tuppet, but it's a close one for sure. Zico's proven record against Souness and a slightly better balanced midfield edged it for me.

And Puskas.

Not sure on this one. We've got two all-rounders while Tuppet has a specialist anchor and specialist creator. I don't think either approach is inherently better than the other one, but I generally prefer the all-rounder universalist approach as it gives you more ways to skin the cat. If for example we need to pass Zico from Souness to Keane, as would typically be the way in any modern zonal set-up, then it's a lot easier to do so with all-rounders. As well as sharing the defensive burden, they can also share the attacking duties. Which has its advantages in zipping quicker service into the forwards.

 

[harms]

Not sure on this one. We've got two all-rounders while Tuppet has a specialist anchor and specialist creator. I don't think either approach is inherently better than the other one, but I generally prefer the all-rounder universalist approach as it gives you more ways to skin the cat. If for example we need to pass Zico from Souness to Keane, as would typically be the way in any modern zonal set-up, then it's a lot easier to do so with all-rounders. As well as sharing the defensive burden, they can also share the attacking duties. Which has its advantages in zipping quicker service into the forwards.

Well, it's the fact that he still has a genuine playmaker if you somehow neutralise Zico — but if he stops Laudrup, you're left without a playmaker, even though both Keane and Souness aren't bad on the ball, obviously.

 

[Tuppet]

I'm not sure Djalma is a good fit for Jairzinho. The latter was more of a 10/second-striker than a proper winger. He played more there at club level. In 1970 he still drifted in a lot hence all his goals but he had C.Alberto bombing forward.

So if Jairzinho stays further out wide than he'd like then that diminishes his goal threat. If he cuts in Djalma won't bomb on which leaves acres of space for R.Carlos on the break to dovetail with Stoichkov. I also agree with Gio that Spencer will have a better time against Olsen and Wright than Puskas will against Moore and Nasazzi. Also Stoichkov will be a serious goal threat. It isn't just Spencer on his own

Djalma is not a CB playing at fullback position ala Gentile or Bergomi. He is a fullback and his instructions are clear to be a balanced fullback, that is to attack when needed but not to be overly reckless. Its not like Carlos Alberto was Cafu or something, he was pretty conservative fullback himself. The other thing is I know Jairzinho played as a SS in his club career but he was playing as a winger in 70 WC which is considered his peak and thats the role he is playing here. Largely considered to be filling the same role as Garrincha who striked up a great partnership with Djalma.

 

[Tuppet]

The difference for me is that Puskas is squared up to Nasazzi who has strong enough credentials to match up to him, while Spencer is up against Wright who doesn't.
Yes, it's certainly not a question of quality across eras. More about the style of play or defending and how that fits with Laudrup's elegance and ability to avoid lunging tackles. Even allowing Monti the scope to be more aggressive, it's worth highlighting that Laudrup himself excelled in a fairly negative and defender-friendly era.

As I mentioned before that Monti stopped Sindelar (Harsh marking etc) who is from all accounts very similar to Laudrup in style - A fleet footed playmaker who can also play as false no. 9 as well as in Stature & talent. So I don't really see how Laudrup poses a much harder challenge for Monti than Sindelar.

 

[Physiocrat]

Djalma is not a CB playing at fullback position ala Gentile or Bergomi. He is a fullback and his instructions are clear to be a balanced fullback, that is to attack when needed but not to be overly reckless. Its not like Carlos Alberto was Cafu or something, he was pretty conservative fullback himself. The other thing is I know Jairzinho played as a SS in his club career but he was playing as a winger in 70 WC which is considered his peak and thats the role he is playing here. Largely considered to be filling the same role as Garrincha who striked up a great partnership with Djalma.

You can ask him to bomb on but for Brazil Djalma barely crossed the halfway line. Now he could be decent going forward but I don't see any evidence for it. You could say Jairzinho '70 is similar to Garrincha in '62 but the latter was still more of a classic winger. Now C Alberto is not Cafu but he was far more attacking than Djalma and there's evidence of his attacking prowess.

 

[Tuppet]

The height stuff is always posted, and you would not be alone in thinking that since Wright is small in stature he would not make it as a CB. He was told exactly that when he tried playing football, but make it he did. On an average it would be correct to assume that shorter defenders would be trumped by great headers of the ball, and that is exactly why players like Wright, Passarella, Cannavaro were special. They proved that you can dominate the game aerially without being very tall.

I mentioned this in OP but Wright played in an era where long balls, crossing and great headers were prevalent. Its the era of Stanely Matthews, Tom Finney, Nat Lofthouse, John Charles and he always held his own. He played against Charles & Lofthouse on many occasions and was never considered a liability.

 

[Tuppet]

You can ask him to bomb on but for Brazil Djalma barely crossed the halfway line. Now he could be decent going forward but I don't see any evidence for it. You could say Jairzinho '70 is similar to Garrincha in '62 but the latter was still more of a classic winger. Now C Alberto is not Cafu but he was far more attacking than Djalma and there's evidence of his attacking prowess.

Just to be clear, I am not asking him to bomb anywhere, I am asking to him to play as any normal FB would. Its interesting that you are hellbent on taking Jairzinho's club position in consideration but not Djalma's who was far more attacking in club stints. In any case Jairzinho and Garrincha played similarly in their world cup tournaments. Its not like Garrincha was not cutting in 62 at every opportunity. Djalma was a pretty good passer as well, IIRC it was his cross that created the chance that Vava scored from in 62 final.

 

[Physiocrat]

Just to be clear, I am not asking him to bomb anywhere, I am asking to him to play as any normal FB would. Its interesting that you are hellbent on taking Jairzinho's club position in consideration but not Djalma's who was far more attacking in club stints. In any case Jairzinho and Garrincha played similarly in their world cup tournaments. Its not like Garrincha was not cutting in 62 at every opportunity.

By bomb on all I meant was overlap. It's entirely possible that Djalma was more attacking at club level, from what I have read that was true of Marzolini. Do you have a link I could read on Djalma's club career?

 

[Gio]

The height stuff is always posted, and you would not be alone in thinking that since Wright is small in stature he would not make it as a CB. He was told exactly that when he tried playing football, but make it he did. On an average it would be correct to assume that shorter defenders would be trumped by great headers of the ball, and that is exactly why players like Wright, Passarella, Cannavaro were special. They proved that you can dominate the game aerially without being very tall.

I mentioned this in OP but Wright played in an era where long balls, crossing and great headers were prevalent. Its the era of Stanely Matthews, Tom Finney, Nat Lofthouse, John Charles and he always held his own. He played against Charles & Lofthouse on many occasions and was never considered a liability.

Normally I'm not arsed about the height stuff. But I think we have an extreme example here, between a very small defence and a striker nicknamed magic head with almost legendary aerial abilities.

As for Wright, certainly punched above his small stature, but even the praise regarding his heading isn't enough IMO to quite convince that he'd nullify Spencer.

He (Wright) wasn't bad in the air.

 

[Gio]

Well, it's the fact that he still has a genuine playmaker if you somehow neutralise Zico — but if he stops Laudrup, you're left without a playmaker, even though both Keane and Souness aren't bad on the ball, obviously.

Fair enough. But as a transition-and-counter package, and taking Michael out of the equation, it's hard to beat Moore's use of the ball from deep, Carlos breaking down the flank, and the pacy outballs of the Stoichkov, Spencer and Laudrup triumvirate, all of whom excelled in counter-attacking set-ups (Bulgaria, Penarol, Denmark).

 

[Tuppet]

By bomb on all I meant was overlap. It's entirely possible that Djalma was more attacking at club level, from what I have read that was true of Marzolini. Do you have a link I could read on Djalma's club career?

I haven't read it all but this seem pretty comprehensive.
https://www.imortaisdofutebol.com/2013/06/30/craque-imortal-djalma-santos/

Djalma did started as a midfielder and yeah he did crossed to get the Vava goal in 62 final. Infact in world cups he was playing on the side of cutting in wing forward and Nilton was playing with the more classic winger Zagallo.

His world cup stuff -

Spoiler: Brazil 62

 

[Physiocrat]

I haven't read it all but this seem pretty comprehensive.
https://www.imortaisdofutebol.com/2013/06/30/craque-imortal-djalma-santos/

Djalma did started as a midfielder and yeah he did crossed to get the Vava goal in 62 final. Infact in world cups he was playing on the side of cutting in wing forward and Nilton was playing with the more classic winger Zagallo.

His world cup stuff -

Spoiler: Brazil 62

The Immortals article was interesting and gives some good support to your argument.

The video less so as Djalma never really hits the final third even with that cross to Vava. Also Djalma was always regarded (at least to my knowledge) as less attacking than Nilton. So I'm not as sceptical as I was but still not entirely convinced.

 

[Gio]

Synergy in the attack:

Spoiler: Laudrup brothers lovely link up against France

My brother started as an attacker but became an elegant attacking midfielder, perhaps the most complete there has ever been. His vision, speed of thought and passing were on a different level; he always knew what was going to happen before anybody else did. If anyone had a ‘football brain’, it was him.
Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/brian-laudrup-perfect-xi#LWJoCjr8uGfmvqEJ.99

From more than hundred goals that I scored I'm sure that over 50 were assisted by Michael. To play with him was extremely easy. We found each other by intuition on the field and found common football language. Look at Ivan Zamorano. Laudrup went there (Real) and Zamorano is a goalscorer. Sometimes I envy Ivan for the passes he receives. Passes on foot after you accelerated. Few people understand football like the Danish player. He can only be comprised with Maradona, Schuster or Roberto Baggio. They make things easy and find the right solutions. For them is simple, for the opponent – unthinkable. Phenomenal! His only problem is his character. He is emotional and terribly reserved. This affects him a lot, because he takes everything personally – no matter if someone tells him something or decision that he does not agree. His relations with Cruyff were delicate because he couldn't take the critics. I listen to him but I don't care that much. For Michael this was fatal. He couldn't take it anymore so he left without a word.

 

[Tuppet]

The Immortals article was interesting and gives some good support to your argument.

The video less so as Djalma never really hits the final third even with that cross to Vava. Also Djalma was always regarded (at least to my knowledge) as less attacking than Nilton. So I'm not as sceptical as I was but still not entirely convinced.

I guess thats fine, my point was even if he was less attacking than say Nilton or Cafu, there is a clear difference between the defensively solid fullbacks like Vogts or Djalma and CBs who play in fullback positions like Bergomi, Gentile or Ferrara. The latter one is usually some residue from Catenaccio / Zona-Mista tactic and require a winger / wide midfielder who can man the whole flank e.g. Conti. But the fullbacks don't require that.

Djalma - Garrincha is actually a great example of it. In 62 world cup at least Garrincha was not playing as your wide midfielder / winger but more as a wing forward who would cut in at every opportunity. This made sense as Brazil want their best player closer to goal as much as possible. He probably was more forward-ish than Jairzinho in 70 WC. Vogts is another example who IIRC played with Kalle in front of him.

So my point is basically just that you are taking it to extreme, I know that I don't want Djalma to bomb forward at every opportunity, but when there is space in front of him and the team is attacking Djalma won't just stay back and let Carlos have the wing, that would be downright stupid. We are talking about probably the greatest Right full back of all time, a 3 time World cup ToT candidate, a feat only matched by Beckenbauer, I think he can handle staying balance in fullback position instruction.

 

[Tuppet]

One of Zico's all time great performance against an Italian defense comprised of Scirea - Gentile - Cabrini - Collavoti - Tardell & Dino Zoff. Zico twisted them to every which way possible even with Gentile's man marking. Just goes on to show that the player of Zico's class can destroy any defense -

 

[antohan]

Is this the Fernandez in goal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Fernández

Yeah, that's the one.

 

[antohan]

Whereas Billy Wright achieved nothing of note outside the English game - 3 forgettable World Cup appearances in 1950 (crashing to that seminal defeat against the US),

You mean World Cup debut defeat. One of the greatest moments in football's history after years of isolation because they were far too good to mix up with the rest. The Yanks of all people.

 

[antohan]

Well, it's the fact that he still has a genuine playmaker if you somehow neutralise Zico — but if he stops Laudrup, you're left without a playmaker, even though both Keane and Souness aren't bad on the ball, obviously.

Easier said than done. I don't see anyone there who can do it.

 

[antohan]

You can ask him to bomb on but for Brazil Djalma barely crossed the halfway line. Now he could be decent going forward but I don't see any evidence for it. You could say Jairzinho '70 is similar to Garrincha in '62 but the latter was still more of a classic winger. Now C Alberto is not Cafu but he was far more attacking than Djalma and there's evidence of his attacking prowess.

To be honest, I've always stuck to the idea that he was the most defensive out of Cafú-Alberto-Djalma, certainly the better one defensivley, but time and again I've come across footage where you can appreciate he was no Burgnich. And I say Burgnich and not Gentile as Gentile actually also could be more attacking when given the freedom.

 

[Physiocrat]

I guess thats fine, my point was even if he was less attacking than say Nilton or Cafu, there is a clear difference between the defensively solid fullbacks like Vogts or Djalma and CBs who play in fullback positions like Bergomi, Gentile or Ferrara. The latter one is usually some residue from Catenaccio / Zona-Mista tactic and require a winger / wide midfielder who can man the whole flank e.g. Conti. But the fullbacks don't require that.

Djalma - Garrincha is actually a great example of it. In 62 world cup at least Garrincha was not playing as your wide midfielder / winger but more as a wing forward who would cut in at every opportunity. This made sense as Brazil want their best player closer to goal as much as possible. He probably was more forward-ish than Jairzinho in 70 WC. Vogts is another example who IIRC played with Kalle in front of him.

So my point is basically just that you are taking it to extreme, I know that I don't want Djalma to bomb forward at every opportunity, but when there is space in front of him and the team is attacking Djalma won't just stay back and let Carlos have the wing, that would be downright stupid. We are talking about probably the greatest Right full back of all time, a 3 time World cup ToT candidate, a feat only matched by Beckenbauer, I think he can handle staying balance in fullback position instruction.

Your distinction between Ferrara and Vogts types is fair. I'd have to watch more of Garrincha in '62 to see how he worked with Djalma. I've mostly seen the '58 side. I'd just like a more attacking full-backs with a Jairzinho type, if it was Matthews I'd have no problem.

 

[antohan]

Tough game for Tuppet this. I like the side and it has a lot going for it, but seems to face a team well equipped to deal with his strengths and best exploit his weaknesses. The clearest weakness is the defence, I can see Lizarazu keeping Brian in his pocket and Djalma doing the best possible job against the double threat of Carlos and Stoichkov (he is not superhuman though and will fail several times). Down the middle though, Laudrup and Spencer will absolutely destroy his defensive core. Spencer wasn't just about heading crosses, his movement and working of the channels was magnificent.

At the other end, similar situation with the wings and arguably a better and more creative ball-on-deck attacking force, but Moore-Nasazzi with Souness-Keane in front go a long way to dealing with that. In fact, @Gio would call it a "magic square of death" if only it hadn't gone so pear-shaped last time he did

Softer defensive core basically, that will prove the difference.

 

[antohan]

Your distinction between Ferrara and Vogts types is fair. I'd have to watch more of Garrincha in '62 to see how he worked with Djalma. I've mostly seen the '58 side. I'd just like a more attacking full-backs with a Jairzinho type, if it was Matthews I'd have no problem.

Eh? With Carlos and Stoichkov on that side the last thing I would worry about is my fullback overlapping Jairzinho in attacking phases. And no, Djalma won't do that, more of a 2/3 up the pitch fullback. A balanced fullback he can be, but you seem to want him to play like a RW converted to fullback.

 

[Physiocrat]

Eh? With Carlos and Stoichkov on that side the last thing I would worry about is my fullback overlapping Jairzinho in attacking phases. And no, Djalma won't do that, more of a 2/3 up the pitch fullback. A balanced fullback he can be, but you seem to want him to play like a RW converted to fullback.

Well it would be a balance of attacking threat and defensive solidity. I just don't think you get the best Jairzinho with Djalma someone like J.Zanetti IMO would be better

 

[antohan]

Well it would be a balance of attacking threat and defensive solidity. I just don't think you get the best Jairzinho with Djalma someone like J.Zanetti IMO would be better

No shit Sherlock, but that's one of a kind and got blocked. The last of my worries in this game would be having Djalma at RB.