The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Theon vs harms

[Balu]

All players shall be judged only on their performances at the tournaments (From 1927 to 1960 the CEICs, from 1960 to 2012 the Euros). Please take this into account before voting. You can read up on the theme by clicking here.
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Team Theon​

Tactics - 4-3-1-2

A physically and technically dominating 4-3-1-2 boasting a rock solid defence, the best midfield in the draft and three of the greatest forwards of all time in attack.

Sweeper Defence

The defence is comprised of proven winners at the highest level, with four out of five players in the defence winning the European Championships - Hiden in '32, Burgnich in '68, Stielike in '80 and Desailly in '00. The only player not to pick up the European Championship, Real Madrid legend Rafael Gordillo came second in '84, with Spain losing out to Platini's France in the Final.

The defence is balanced and complimentary - getting the most out of the players and fitting them into the roles they played their best football in. In the heart of defence, the excellent Uli Stielike reprises his libero role for Germany and Real Madrid, whilst Burgnich sits deep and provides perfect cover as a defensive right back. This is the exact type of role that Burgnich played for Italy and the wonderful 'Grande Inter' side of the 1960's - Burgnich is the gold standard in this role and simply cannot be bettered.

Partnering Stielike in the heart of defence is one of the greatest defenders of the last twenty years - Marcel Desailly. A tournament winner in '00 and semi finalist in '96 with France, Desailly was voted twice into the Team of the Tournament with a series off impeccable displays next to Laurent Blanc. At left back, the ramaging wing back Rafael Gordillo will play as an opposite to Burgnich on the right, bombing up the wing and stretching the pitch in the manner he did for Spain and Real Madrid. There are very few wingbacks who offer the same level of offensive input as Gordillo and his influence offensively should not be underestimated.

Dominating Midfield

The midfield is physical and packed with proven quality at the highest level - Matthaus and Bozsik are the two best midfielders in the draft, with the excellent Edgar Davids rounding off a frighteningly talented midfield.

Supremely talented with the ball at his feet, the one thing Bozsik lacked was searing pace and mobility - but this is well compensated for here with the tireless running of Davids and Matthaus, two of the most industrious footballers in the draft. Bozsik will look to get on the ball and dictate the game, with the freedom to move forward and link with Vukas offensively when the opportunity arises.

Whilst Matthaus and Davids are excellent defensively, both contribute going forward - particularly Matthaus who is =the most complete midfielder in the competition. As he was for Inter Milan, Matthaus was everywhere for Germany - bursting forward against Baresi's Italy as one of the most advanced players on the pitch, then dropping deep to tick things over in midfield and slow down the game. Matthaus is often limited in these drafts and confined to a holding role, but here he has the platform to fully display his talents - with complete freedom to rampage forward, wreck havoc running at Harms' defenders and unleash his rocket of a shot.

Only slightly inferior to the Great German, Edgar Davids has a similar role on the left of midfield and will look to break forward at times whilst ruthlessly chasing down the ball when out of possession. In relation to this latter point - I've always considered Keane slightly better than Davids, but in terms of winning the ball back and pressuring the opposition midfield Davids is in a class of his own. Only Rino Gattuso compares in that regard and Davids will have a huge role off the ball here, pressuring Schuster, cutting off passing lanes and winning the ball back.

Of course Davids was much more complete than Rino - as seen here in the Euro's against Nedved's Czechoslovakia.

Spoiler: youtube video

Ruthless Attack

In attack two of the most lethal strikers ever to grace a football pitch in Sandor Kocsis (75 goals in 68 games internationally) and Luigi Riva (35 goals in 42 internationally) play ahead of Bernard Vukas, one of the most talented players ever to come out of Eastern Europe.

Playing behind the strikers, Bernard Vukas is an exceptional winger/forward famous for his dribbling, technique and agility. Next to the wonderful Dragan Dzajic and Stejpan Bobek, Vukas is one of the greatest footballers ever to come from Yugoslavia, captaining the team and ending with 22 goals in 59 games. Voted by the Croatian Football Federation as the best Croatian player of all time in 2000, Vukas was at the heart of an excellent Yugoslaivia side of the 50's - "Debate rages in Croatia today as to whether Vukas would be suited to the physically demanding and overtly tactical football of modern times, but many agree that his prodigious vision, skill and technique allied to his voracious winning mentality could see him succeed in any era. Comparisons have even been made to a certain Lionel Messi. Not bad for an ‘urchin’ from the back streets of Zagreb."

Sandor Kocsis was part of the exceptional Mighty Magyar's of the 1950's - one of the most dominant International teams of all time and tournament winners in 1948-53. His partnership with Ferenc Puskás was one of the most dangerous of the era, the two were undoubtedly complete forwards with Kocsis being slightly more dominant physically and Puskas slightly better on the ball. In his peak years Kocsis scored 227 goals in 199 games, whilst offering much more than solely goals - The Mighty Magyars were a fluid footballing team, with the likes of Hidegkuti dropping deep and interchanging with the two forwards.

Partnering Kocsis is Luigi Riva - "Rombo di Tuono (Roar of Thunder)" and part of the Italian Euro 1968 winning team, scoring a goal in the final and included in the Team of the Tournament. Italy's record goalscorer and the greatest #9 the Italian National Team has ever had, Riva was voted the 6th, 2nd and 3rd best player in the world during '68, '69 and '70. Formerly a winger before moving up top, Riva was quick, with exceptional movement and finishing ability.

At club level he played his entire career not with Juventus, Milan or Internazionale - but with Cagliari on the Island of Sardinia. A great story, Luigi Riva led Cagliari to the Scudetto in 1970 - an exceptional achievement which the small club had never managed prior to Riva's arrival, or managed since his retirement.

Spoiler: youtube video

vs

 

[Balu]

Team harms​

In the back I have the pairing, that won for Czechoslivakia their first and only European championship. They don’t have the shiniest names, but Ivo Viktor and Ondrus are among the very best in their position in the history of the tournament. What was interesting about their team – they weren’t a “classic” underdog in Greece 2004 style, they were quite an attacking team (and when their defensive midfielder Pollak was sent off in the semi-final, they fielded another attacker in the final, instead of going safe), and their success (the final of 1976 was 19th game in their unbeaten run, which ended later that year, after 22 games without defeat) was based mostly on individual quality of their goalkeeper (best player of 1976 tournament) and their captain, who organized their rather motley and hot-headed defence. Like Yashin said to Viktor when he invited him to play in his testimonial: “Banks is fantastic, but we both know that there is a difference between playing good and playing behind the great defenders”. They are joined by Khurtislava – Soviet captain in 1972, who managed to get a rather average USSR team to the finals and was their star player from the beginning until the very end (he was the only one of notice in the final, where he even managed to hit the bar against West Germany). He was unlucky to miss out on 1968 Euro – he was already their best defender and was voted 2nd best Soviet player in both 1967 and 1968, behind the great Streltsov. The best player in the history of Georgia and the best stopper/man-marker in USSR history – Ondrus will find it much easer to have an equal playing beside him.

On the right there is an underrated Bezsonov, who contributed massively to Soviet’s second place in 1988. He played only 3 games, being injured for both group game against Ireland and the final against Netherlands – and the results speak for themself. USSR won all three games with Bezsonov, conceding only 1 goal and he was one of the best players in their group win against the eventual winners of that tournament. When he was absent, USSR drew against Ireland and lost in the final. He was injured early in the semi-final against Italy, yet he managed to continue the game and lead USSR to a 2:0 win, being described by Soviet press as “Le Chevalier sans peur et sans reproche”. On the left I have the man, whose name is familiar to all of you that follows these drafts, Andreas Brehme is one of the best fullbacks in football’s history and he left his mark on European Championship also – he was included in team of the tournament both in 1982 and 1992 and was equally comfortable playing on the left and on the right, providing unmatched attacking threat and more than capable to held his own against the very best attackers.

We all know how important midfield is. It usually defines the team – and I’m quite happy with what I’ve got here. All three are fantastic players on the ball; all three work their asses off for the team. Valery Voronin, who is also capable of dropping back to the center half position, is a cultured defensive midfielder, one of the most intelligent players in USSR history and a the only Sovier player from that era who joined Yashin in all those World/European XI. He was voted as the best player in USSR in both 1964 and 1965 and his performance against Luis Suarez in the final was highly praised not only by the Soviet press, but also by France Football. Slightly on the right I have Wilfried Van Moer – player that I’m in love with after doing an extensive research of his 1980 performance. "El Pequeño General" was the most important player for that Belgium side that made in to the final. It’s unbelievable that how he elevated the whole team performances, he ran tirelessly, always providing a passing option for his partners and forcing the opponents into making a mistake by his constant pressing. What’s even more impressing is that he was 35 years old at the time, and in his youth he was known as a tidy attacking midfielder (already one of the best players in Belgium history with his 3 golden shoes, mind you!). He was voted 4th European footballer of the year in 1980, the highest position that Belgium player ever had, despite finishing his club season on 15th place in Belgium league. And now, last but not the least, Bernd Schuster – a complete midfielder, who was an indisputable star of the tournament. He orchestrated a group win against Netherlands and the final against Belgium, was voted 2nd only to Kalle in the European Footballer of the year list and earned a transfer to Barcelona. You can read more in Joga’s fantastic write-up on him: "What's the abiding memory of the 1980 Euro Championships in Italy? England limping out? The tear gas? The low crowds? No. They were all rubbish. What really stood out was Bernd Schuster. What a player - it wasn't just the mop of blond hair that made him stand head and shoulders above the rest, it was the way he patrolled the midfield, starting off attack after attack with his classy range of passing"


And on top of that, I have a top-heavy front three. Dragan Dzajic, the best player of 1968 Euro, who, if you want to listen to Beckenbauer, should’ve won Ballon D’Or that year ahead of no other than George Best, takes his favourite place on the left. He is free to do what he wants – he has a fantastic goalscoring record in Euro’s, he was the topscorer of 1968 Euro and a second best in 1976 – a fantastic achievement for a winger, whose main purpose was to supply his centre forward. In the middle he has the best partner that he can wish for – Dr. Gyorgy Sarosi is up there with Platini and Van Basten as the best goalscorer in the draft. He holds a record of most goals scored in CEIC, most goals scored in one game and he was a topscorer in 2 tournaments in a row (7 goals in 7 games in 33/35 and 10 goals in 5 games in 36/38). What makes him really special is that he played as a centre forward, midfielder and central defender and was world class in all three positions – one year he was picked in European XI by three different newspapers as a forward, midfielder and a defender. Like John Charles, he liked to move around the pitch, dropping back to defence if his team needed to secure the lead and leading the line when they were attacking. A complete centre forward, he won everything in the air and was able to finish every chance that he had. His best European performance came in 1939, when he scored 7 goals past the great Planicka (9th best goalkeeper of XX century). On the right there is Igor Chislenko – the best right winger in Soviet history, who was one of the most important players in that 1964 USSR side. In the qualifiers he humiliated Facchetti and he continued with his form in the final stages of the tournament, providing incisive runs and assisting Voronin in the semis. In the final he should’ve had a match-winning penalty after he left for dead 3 Spanish defenders, but he was unlucky. He was an incredibly hardworking player, who dropped back in midfield when he was asked to or cut inside in the centre forward role. Another one that missed 1968 tournament due to injury, which he had just a few days prior the semi-final against Italy – which is a shame, because he already scored another one past Facchetti in 1966 and surely he was looking forward to it, being in the form of his life.

 

[Balu]

A few biased thoughts on the game:

• I simply have better players. Theon doesn't have a single player that made such an impact as Dzajic, Sarosi, Schuster or Ivo Viktor did. His best player is, in my opinion, Bozsik, but the set-up isn't the best for him - he doesn't have the wingers that he can pin-point his passes too and he is limited to a short/middle range passing mostly. Also, having an energetic and mobile pairing of Schuster and Van Moer in your zone is not ideal for him. Matthäus is one of the best midfielders ever, but I don't feel that he is in Dzajic/Sarosi category in terms of European performances to be frank. I'll keep an open mind if Theon will argue his point well though
• I expect him to play a diamond - and if he will, he will get murdered by my left flank pairing of Brehme - Dzajic. With only Burgnich against them, who was a man-marker in the first place, one or, which is more likely, both of them are going to have a field day. Dzajic scored against Burgnich's Italy in the final what should've been a winner. Theon may argue that Burgnich held his own in the replay, but it was a coach win in the first place - Yugoslavia fielded the same team that already played 2 games in 5 days, including overtime in the first final, while Italians changed 5 players. Dzajic is devastating - ask Camacho and Vogts, and I read an opinion from a USSR defender that it was more difficult to man-mark Dzajic that it was to man-mark George Best - because Dzajic was more of a team player. Like when Gentile man-marked both Maradona and Zico and the former tried to do everything by himself and failed, but the latter played with his teammates and eventually got an assist
• I don't think that his attack is all that. Riva and Kocsis both have a claim to be one of the best strikers in European history, but in terms of their performances in CEIC/Euro's they are slightly underwhelming. Riva missed the semi and original final in 1968, being preferred to Pierino Prati. He scored a goal against tired and frustrated Yugoslavian team in replay, but he was still raw, returning from the injury, missed a couple of chances and scored a goal that may have been from an offside. Kocsis failed to maintain his usual international record, which is a little more than goal per game and scored only 6 in his 12 CEIC appearances. He played for the most dominant team in the history of the tournament, yet he failed to impress - their best attacking players were Puskas and Hidegkuti. Don't get me wrong - they are still a serious threat, but not as much as you would think, judging by their overall reputation. Kocsis will find a worthy opponent in Ondrus, who was built like a tower and won every header possible and some impossible
• Kocsis and Bozsik will struggle without any real wide attacking players. Theon only has Gordillo providing width on the left, but I don't rate him as a match-winner here and he already has his hands tied with Chislenko. Without wide players Bozsik is a little limited in his playmaking and Kocsis will find it hard to score his trademark header without any crosses.

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Good luck @Theon @NM @harms

 

[Balu]

@Rado_N @Damien , could one of you please add the poll to the thread? Thanks a lot.

Question:
Judged on the Euro performances, who will win the match?

- Team Theon
- Team harms
- Draw

Poll for 24hrs. Public Poll. View results without voting. Can change votes.

 

[Damien]

Done

 

[crappycraperson]

Straight off the bat that point by harms about his left wing against right side of Theon does look very dicey for the latter. Will it be Lothar helping out full time there, limiting his impact on the game ?

 

[harms]

As I thought, the expected "Matthäus is the best midfielder in the draft" and trying to hype his attacking players by using their career achievements and not European one.

A genuine question - how do you guys rate Matthäus in this draft? I think it's 1988 version he is using? He wasn't as good as he was in 1990 for me, and he wasn't even the best midfielder in that Euro for me - certainly behind Mikhailitchenko, even if we don't count Rijkaard and Gullit as midfielders. It was his stupid mistake, for example, that led to Italy's goal (when he "dropped back", as @Theon says in his write-up).

Go straight to 1:01:00, I couldn't find a shorter footage.


In 1988 he was on his way to becoming one of the best midfielders in history, but he wasn't there yet. With Schuster (and his mindblowing performance in 1980) on the pitch, he isn't even the best German in this game.



Kocsis' and Riva's joint goalscoring contribution in European tournaments equals Sarosi's one game against Czechoslovakia.

 

[Balu]

I was surprised that Matthäus went in the first round. He was good in 1984, very good but still not at his best in 1988, missed 1992 because he was injured and 1996 because he fought with Vogts, who prefered Sammer in the libero role (thank god!). The less said about his performances in 2000, the better. It's brilliant that he played in 2 Euros 16 years apart, probably a record? Not sure about that, but he didn't really show his peak level or had the impact we saw at the World Cup in any of the Euros he played in.

He's still a great player of course and fits well into Theon's midfield. I'd rather have Bozsik pulling the strings in midfield though than Matthäus in the context of this draft. Which isn't really a bad thing, because it allows Matthäus to help out on the wing and he needs him to do that against harms' fantastic left wing.

 

[Balu]

Can't really look past harms here. In terms of performances at Euros his team is just incredible. It's such a lovely and well constructed side, you can easily see how it works and it has players who had an huge impact in the tournaments everywhere. There's a lot to like about Theon's team as well, can't really criticise anything. But Schuster & van Moer deserve so much credit for their Euro performances, same goes for Dzajic and Sarosi. That edges it for me.

Kocsis' and Riva's joint goalscoring contribution in European tournaments equals Sarosi's one game against Czechoslovakia.

To be fair to Riva, he turned his only goal in his only game into Italy's only Euro win. It's difficult to argue argue against his impact .

 

[harms]

Why Vuskas, btw? So that voters would subconsciously think of Puskas?
On a more serious note, I would love to learn more not about the player himself, but about his performances in CEIC, if possible.

 

[harms]

To be fair to Riva, he turned his only goal in his only game into Italy's only Euro win. It's difficult to argue argue against his impact .

Yeah, it was a cheap dig, but I couldn't resist it 7 goals against Planicka, ffs, I still can't believe it.

Re: Riva. He missed the whole tournament being a bench option because he wasn't in a good form after his injury - he was able to play, but wasn't picked in the starting eleven - it should count for something, or shouldn't it? I can't decide. And in replay he missed a couple of easy chances because he was still quite rusty.

I can't give him full credit for that win, really. There were some factors to that game that simply can not be overlooked. Firstly - that Yugoslavian team wasn't all that, to be fair, they had one genuinely world-class player in Dzajic and the others were just a bunch of overmotivated mediocre/decent players. 1976 side was much more talented, for example. Their best attribute, like they said themselves, was their mentality, their will to win. They were fantastic mentally against the current world champions England in the semis - and they managed to overcome them, thanks to a piece of magic by Dzajic. They were the better team against the hosts Italy in the final, but Domeninghi's lucky shot demoralized them. They stopped believing that they can win the second game against the hosts, especially when Yugoslavians had to field the same XI and Italians had the luxury to field 5 rested players, including some of the world bests like Mazzola (look how many players were picked from that Italy team and it was only Dzajic from that Yugoslavian side - and rightly so, I should say). So, he scored a goal against demoralized and tired Yugoslavian side - still, a 1 in 1 record, but it's not that impressive for me.

And, anyway, he has 1 in 1 against 10 in 5 (so, 2 in 1) in Sarosi's best tournament. And he didn't even finish one game, being injured early in the game against Italy. So, if you add 0,5 in 1 (6 in 12) of Kocsis... Okay, I'm overdoing it, Sarosi also had 7 in 7 where he played as both midfielder and forward, and also a tournament where he played as a defender, so it's not fair to compare his best spell to Kocsis' overall stats and we can't judge Sarosi by his overall stats as he played literally everywhere during those 3 consecutive tournaments.

 

[harms]

@Theon tag me when you will be able to respond, I feel like I'm having an unfair advantage being the only one present from the beginning.

 

[Balu]

@Theon tag me when you will be able to respond, I feel like I'm having an unfair advantage being the only one present from the beginning.

He wrote me that he's away for a few hours, going to the cinema, he hopes to be back around 6pm.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Vuskas!

 

[Theon]

I've been out with the missus today and I'm just back now - Brutal write up from Harms, I think you're really harsh and some of your criticism of the players is well over the top.

Straight off the bat that point by harms about his left wing against right side of Theon does look very dicey for the latter. Will it be Lothar helping out full time there, limiting his impact on the game ?

Aye, whilst I can't disagree too much there Crappy - the left flank is comfortably the best part of Harm's team - it's actually very well countered seeing as Burgnich is at right back. In my opinion it would only really be Bergomi in the entire draft who would rival Burgnich when it comes to dealing with that flank, he's an absolute rock and I don't think he can be bettered defensively.

Burgnich also has a history of doing well against Dzajic in the Euros - This is from the official UEFA report on the final against Italy:

"That was game, set and match, because there was nothing coming through from the opposition. Dragan Džajić was a major disappointment; Tarcisio Burgnich, one of the great right-backs, had no problems here."

 

[Theon]

Riva and Kocsis both have a claim to be one of the best strikers in European history, but in terms of their performances in CEIC/Euro's they are slightly underwhelming. Riva missed the semi and original final in 1968, being preferred to Pierino Prati. He scored a goal against tired and frustrated Yugoslavian team in replay, but he was still raw, returning from the injury, missed a couple of chances and scored a goal that may have been from an offside.

This is completely absurd and I'm really not sure what the point of being so bias is here.

Riva wasn't dropped for the semi final at all and no body was preferred over him, he was simply injured and couldn't play - He then returns for the final, scores a goal which wins Italy the European Cup and gets voted into the Team of the Tournament. Somehow Italy's star striker returning for the final and winning them the competition is portrayed negatively - it's mental.

As for Harm's view that he played poorly, here are three separate objective reports from the game:

"In the win in the final against the Yugoslavians, who had previously knocked out FIFA World Cup runners-up Germany in qualifying and FIFA World Cup winners England, Riva stood out as he so often did in his career because of his extraordinary goal instinct, his pace and his wonderful left foot. It consolidated his role as one of Italy’s best loved players."

"Riva's recall made the difference. Returning from a broken leg (not for the first time), he exemplified the whole team: sometimes raw, sometimes clever, always in your face."

"Valcareggi brought back Riva, who had recovered from a broken leg, and the gamble paid off spectacularly.

Riva and Anastasi linked up perfectly and Riva, in particular, was in outstanding form. His left foot shot, a trademark, gave Italy the lead after 12 minutes and after half an hour, the 20 year-old Anastasi controlled the ball well and volleyed a second goal, all in one slick movement. It was enough to give Italy the Henri Delaunay trophy."

 

[Theon]

Kocsis' and Riva's joint goalscoring contribution in European tournaments equals Sarosi's one game against Czechoslovakia.

Again I'm not even sure what the point of this is here - Riva has 1 eligible game in this draft, Sarosi has 17 games. It's a silly point to bring up as the format of the tournament completely changed.

On the Sarosi point briefly because you keep bringing it up, he obviously had that great game which has inflated his goal scoring record, but scoring 7 goals against a mismatched Burgr/Ctyroky/Mourek/Svaton backline isnt quite the same as playing against Burgnich/Steilike/Desailly/Gordillo - which is a comfortably superior defence to yours.

But aye, Riva was absolutely ruthless and if you include qualifiers (as evidence of his ability) his record for Euro 1968 was 7 goals in 4 games. He has 35 goals in 42 games internationally and was twice on the podium for the Ballon d'Or - He carried that same form into the Euro's and there is no getting around that, as much as you want to play his impact down due to the format of the tournament.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Brutal write up from Harms, I think you're really harsh and some of your criticism of the players is well over the top.

'kinell, Harms has stuck the knife in there. Brutal write up

Anyway why not play Vukas on the right as a wide-ish RAM? You do have both Riva and Kocsis who were complete players and not your average #9s, esp with Riva who could drift into the left hand channels. In saying that, your side could really do with a bit of width and trickery down the flanks - particularly the right flank with Burgnich being non existent offensively.

 

[Theon]

In 1988 Matthaus was on his way to becoming one of the best midfielders in history, but he wasn't there yet. With Schuster (and his mindblowing performance in 1980) on the pitch, he isn't even the best German in this game.

There's not a chance I would swap Matthaus for Schuster. The latter is a better passer but overall it's a non-contest. Matthaus is the best all round midfielder on the pitch.

And I'm not sure what the whole point about Matthaus not being in his peak in '88 is about when you then go on to talk about Schuster, who was 20 years old at Euro 1980 with only 7 caps, whereas Matthaus was 27 years old and already the Captain of the German national team.

I've seen the full games against Italy and Holland and Matthaus stood out a country mile for Germany. He was by a distance their most important player and involved in everything that they did.

You've got a great left flank and Sarosi has lovely Euro credentials, but I don't think it's close between the midfields in terms of quality. As good as Schuster was in 1980 the best playmaker on the pitch is Bozsik. And Davids himself had a fantastic string of performances for Holland, such as this blocked one in the OP.

 

[Theon]

Anyway why not play Vukas on the right as a wide-ish RAM? You do have both Riva and Kocsis who were complete players and not your average #9s, esp with Riva who could drift into the left hand channels. In saying that, your side could really do with a bit of width and trickery down the flanks - particularly the right flank with Burgnich being non existent offensively.

That's hilarious.

Aye it's a good question, I thought about positioning him there on the formation graphic and the simple reason I didn't is that I prefer this aesthetically. I tried to highlight his dribbling in the OP and in that free role behind the strikers Vukas would naturally pull out to the flanks. You are spot on with what you say though, I had the exact same thoughts.

 

[Gio]

Probably the highest quality match-up so far in the draft. Therefore with the standard so high, I'm going to be an uber-picky cnut:

• Steilike was culpable for the Belgian goal in the Euro '80 final. Still a strong pick overall.
• Same for Brehme, who lost possession for Denmark's first in Euro '92. Again, otherwise excellent.
• Matthaus and Kocsis didn't give their peak World Cup standard in the Euros. Matthaus was very close to his best by 1988 and did pretty well in the tournament regardless. Kocsis, harder to judge, but his goal record isn't quite as compelling as his career record.

As for the match. Theon's midfield is ridiculously good and it's up against a formidable trio in Euro terms. The calibre of Sarosi and Dzakic is exceptional but they're up against opposition well suited to their strengths in Burgnich and Desailly. Not necessarily buying the Riva criticism, he will be a serious handful in this match.

 

[antohan]

I was surprised that Matthäus went in the first round. He was good in 1984, very good but still not at his best in 1988, missed 1992 because he was injured and 1996 because he fought with Vogts, who prefered Sammer in the libero role (thank god!). The less said about his performances in 2000, the better. It's brilliant that he played in 2 Euros 16 years apart, probably a record? Not sure about that, but he didn't really show his peak level or had the impact we saw at the World Cup in any of the Euros he played in.

He's still a great player of course and fits well into Theon's midfield. I'd rather have Bozsik pulling the strings in midfield though than Matthäus in the context of this draft. Which isn't really a bad thing, because it allows Matthäus to help out on the wing and he needs him to do that against harms' fantastic left wing.

He played in three Euros 20 years apart, but you can be excused for forgetting his atrocious 1980 performance when he came on againstthe Dutch 3-0 and "almost managed to get them a draw" according to Schuster (who had a blinder in that 3-2). No love lost there.

 

[antohan]

I didn't understand how Theon planned to use Bozsik, Stielike, Davids, Matthaus and Desailly when looking at the draft. I supposed he was going for some serious bus parking with Burgnich possibly as RCB.

Still don't get it now, why not a regular CB?

 

[Theon]

I didn't understand how Theon planned to use Bozsik, Stielike, Davids, Matthaus and Desailly when looking at the draft. I supposed he was going for some serious bus parking with Burgnich possibly as RCB.

Really? I actually thought you would have liked it

Desailly was always going to be a regular CB and I had the idea of using a sweeper defense when I started the game. Burgnich or Bergomi were the two players I had pinned for the defensive right sided slot, with someone offensive on the left - hopefully to upgrade into Facchetti at some point. I really liked the idea and once Stielike was unpicked in the middle rounds I didn't want to pass him up.

 

[harms]

Burgnich/Steilike/Desailly/Gordillo - which is a comfortably superior defence to yours.

How so, excuse me?

Let's EdgarAllanPillow it:

harms

1. Ivo Viktor (I don't think that goalkeepers should be excluded, it's not fair to them and to me)
1976 TotT; 3rd in 1976 Ballon D'Or vote, and is considered by many as the best player of that tournament

2. Khurtsilava
1972 TotT; 11th in 1972 Ballon D'Or vote

3. Ondrus
1976 TotT; 6th in 1976 Ballon D'Or vote

4. Brehme
1984, 1992 TotT

5. Bezsonov
Missed the final and the group game, yet he was one of the best players for that Soviet team in 1988 and won all three games, including "the rehearsing" of the eventual final. Not included in team of the tournament

Theon


1. Hiden
No teams of the tournament back then

2. Stielike
no inclusions in Team of the Tournament

3. Burgnich
no inclusions in Team of the Tournament

4. Desailly
1996, 2000 TotT

5. Gordillo
no inclusions in Team of the Tournament

Spoiler: Comfortably superior

My team is based on a fantastic duo in Viktor and Ondrus that managed to lead Czechoslovakia to an unprecedented unbeaten run, which stopped only at 23rd game and included their 1976 success at Euro's - the win, when they were up against Netherlands in the semis and West Germany in the final - the teams, that just 2 years prior to that faced each other in arguably the best World Cup final in history. Netherlands failed to beat Ondrus, and Viktor was Germany's cryptonite in that final.




Re: Burgnich vs Dzajic in 1968. Dzajic scored against him in the actual final, which ended 1:1 and Italy was lucky not to lose it. As I already said earlier, Yugoslavian team, which main strength was their sheer will to win and they had only 1 player capable of moment of magic (while Italy had Zoff, Facchetti, Burgnich, Mazzola, Domenenghi, Riva and the luxury to rest some of them). They did against England, the current World Champions, with Dzajic scoring past Banks and leaving Moore for dead. They almost did it against the hosts in the finals, again, with the goal from Dzajic, who managed to escape from Burgnich and score against Zoff. When they had to play yet another game, they lost it even before the starting whistle, they didn't believe that they can win it, because Italians were confident, cheered by the home fans and filled with quality and fresh players. On the other hand, Dzajic had carried the average side on his back through two incredibly difficult games, scored 2 goals from the wing and got kicked ruthlessly both against England (Sir Bobby Charlton said that it was probably the worst game that he ever played in, with countless fouls from both sides) and Italy (well, that's catenaccio for you).

Spoiler: Dzajic scoring against Italy with Zoff in the goal and Burgnich man-marking him

Spoiler: Dzajic having a laugh at Moore and Banks at the same tournament

He also tore Vogts, a player of the same calibre and similar skillset, to shreds in 1976.

Re: Riva. He was available for the semis and the final, and made the bench, was he not? But he broke the leg prior to that tournament and wasn't picked in the starting XI because, well, as our very own LVG says, you there is a difference between being fit and not being match-ready. My criticism on Riva is harsh, as I already said to Balu, it was tongue in cheek dig, but he isn't in the same bracket as Sarosi here, obviously, and neither is Kocsis, and both were not at their best for Euro's, due to a completely different reasons though (I still have no idea what happened to Kocsis and why he wasn't so impressive).

 

[harms]

Anyway why not play Vukas on the right as a wide-ish RAM? You do have both Riva and Kocsis who were complete players and not your average #9s, esp with Riva who could drift into the left hand channels. In saying that, your side could really do with a bit of width and trickery down the flanks - particularly the right flank with Burgnich being non existent offensively.

He was a left-sided player, just like Riva. He can do whatever he wants though.

 

[harms]

Same for Brehme, who lost possession for Denmark's first in Euro '92. Again, otherwise excellent.

Yep, and with Brehme being an important attacking outlet it could've been a point to argue about... against a different team. But Theon has literally no threat from the right flank.

 

[Theon]

How so, excuse me?

Let's EdgarAllanPillow it

All you've done there is list whether or not they were included in a retrospective Team of the Tournament by someone at UEFA. It's very basic analysis and means very little, Steilike was fantastic for Germany and Burgnich is not bettered defensively in the entire draft in his position - only Bergomi can rival him there.

The only defender on your team who would get into my side is Brehme for Gordillo - That's it.

It's funny because just above you've been criticising Riva and Matthaus, despite both of them being added to the Team of the Tournament, yet for your players being in the Team of the Tournament is some sort of definitive mark of quality. You can't have it both ways.

 

[harms]

All you've done there is list whether or not they were included in a retrospective Team of the Tournament by someone at UEFA. It's very basic analysis and means very little, Steilike was fantastic for Germany and Burgnich is not bettered defensively in the entire draft in his position - only Bergomi can rival him there.

The only defender on your team who would get into my side is Brehme for Gordillo - That's it.

It's funny because just above you've been criticising Riva and Matthaus, despite both of them being added to the Team of the Tournament, yet for your players being in the Team of the Tournament is some sort of definitive mark of quality. You can't have it both ways.

It's a subjective opinion, I agree, yet a relevant one - certainly more relevant than your statement earlier or anything that I can say. It's a starting point of discussion, not the final one - because you are biased towards your players and I'm towards mine, it's natural. And based on that information we can start discussing their actual performances. Dzajic got the better of Burgnich in the first final, Burgnich and the Italian coach got the better of their opponents in replay. What you fail to mention here is that Dzajic isn't the only threat from the left here - even if I'm sure that Dzajic is going to shine here, he has Brehme's support - and who's going to look after him? Matthäus? It will significantly reduce his influence - and it's not like he is well-equipped to deal with Brehme here.

Matthäus is included in team of the tournament and he had a brilliant campaign in 1988, read back, I'm not arguing with that. He was the best and most important player in that German side. What I'm arguing here is that he is not the best midfielder in the draft/on the pitch, it is just plain wrong - we are not discussing their careers (in which case such statement will, probably, be true), we are discussing their Euro performances - and he is below Schuster and Bozsik (probably? He was integral for that team, but I have no idea how to judge him, let's just assume that he was as great as he was usually) and on par with Van Moer for me - I overhype him, but he actually took his side to the final (which Matthäus failed to do in 1988) and was voted 4th best player in Europe that season, despite finishing on 15th place with his club side earlier that year.


You are too interested in your player's achievements outside European Championships and I'm maybe too pedantic in cutting off everything that happened outside - it's your choice, but the rules are on my side. We are bound to disagree in most things here, I'm sure of it.

 

[Balu]

He played in three Euros 20 years apart, but you can be excused for forgetting his atrocious 1980 performance when he came on againstthe Dutch 3-0 and "almost managed to get them a draw" according to Schuster (who had a blinder in that 3-2). No love lost there.

I didn't want to embarrass him.

But yeah, I did forget that he already played there. Very weird. It also means, he played in four Euros then, not three . 80, 84, 88 and 2000.

 

[Theon]

It's a subjective opinion, I agree, yet a relevant one - certainly more relevant than your statement earlier or anything that I can say. It's a starting point of discussion, not the final one - because you are biased towards your players and I'm towards mine, it's natural. And based on that information we can start discussing their actual performances.

Matthaus is below Schuster and Bozsik and on par with Van Moer for me

In my opinion you fundamentally are just placing far, far too much emphasis on some pretty meaningless statistics and awards. Burgnich is a defensive colossus, won the tournament with Italy and kept Dzajic quiet in the final - but because someone at UEFA hasn't added him on their website as the team of the tournament you see that as being particularly meaningful.

I think you're out of your mind if you think Matthaus is on par with Van Moer. I watched all of those Van Moer videos you put up and he isn't on the same level as Edgar Davids, let alone Lothar Matthaus. It's absurd.

And I'm not trying to be critical at all here - but saying Van Moer who was picked in the 8th round is as good as Matthaus is completely mental.

In terms of who the best midfielder on the pitch is I didn't say it was definitely Matthaus over Bozsik, I just said that Matthaus was the most complete midfielder - Bozsik would be the best playmaker on the pitch and arguably better than Matthaus. But like I said, I think you're significantly underrating Matthaus. I watched those games and he stood out a mile for Germany. It was foreign commentary and it was just constantly 'Matthaus, Matthaus, Matthaus' - he was in the thick of everything.

 

[harms]

It was foreign commentary and it was just constantly 'Matthaus, Matthaus, Matthaus' - he was in the thick of everything.

Have you watched my compilations with the sound on? Because in the game it was always "Van Moer, Van Moer, Van Moer"...
They are completely different players. Matthäus, with his engine, drive and directness, was fantastic at what he did - but still, he wasn't as good defensively as he was later, for example (hence the Italy mistake). Van Moer was a different player, he glued that Belgium side together and with his constant running (mostly horizontal and not vertical, like Matthäus) he was a bitch to play against. I'm not sure how it is seen in my compilations, I was afraid of making them too long, but he forced the opponents to make mistakes every fecking minute, he just ran and ran, and in possession he kept the things smooth and was able of picking a fantastic pass or providing a run with the ball forward. Your vision of Matthäus is based on what you know of him already and what you've seen of him for Inter and Germany in 1990. But to say that Van Moer is not as good as Matthäus just because you say so and discard UEFA ratings as something subjective, hence, irrelevant? Yeah, way to go.

Here, this guy is also out of his mind, for example: click. I don't think that even I would rate him THIS high by the way.

I don't always find myself in agreement with those TotT, but it's still means something. It means that some guys, that watch a lot of football, watched all that games and decided that those players were more deserving than others. Less so with later teams though - with increased capacity and media bs it's a lot less meaningful now.

Ondrus, for me, is at least in the same bracket as Desailly - and in terms of his individual influence on his team, on the tournament, he bests Desailly - who was a fantastic player in a fantastic team. Just watch his colossal performance against Cruyff's Holland, who was a clear favorite of the tournament. And so on.


Different question - what's your easiest route to goal? Both of your forwards are pretty all-rounded, I'll give you that, yet, they thrived in a set-ups with a brilliant wing-play, haven't they? Kocsis's best attribute was his heading ability, no doubt about that, him and Czibor You only have one player that is instructed to contribute in wing-play and he is against Bezsonov/Chislenko and I don't rate him, I see him as the weakest player on the pitch.

Spoiler: What Chislenko is capable of

Add to that that Kocsis is up against Ondrus, who was 1.91 and a fantastic header...

An attack from the center? When Voronin (who somehow flew under the radar so far), plus Van Moer and Schuster all going to contribute defensively? What's your approach?

 

[Joga Bonito]

He was a left-sided player, just like Riva. He can do whatever he wants though.

He does seem like a centrally oriented player who was equally at ease in both flanks as a free roaming player of sorts.



The volley at 3.51

This draft was interesting as there were a couple of Yugoslavian who were interesting to watch or read up about (Milutinovic, Bobec, Vukas and Kostic). Unfortunately Yugoslavia finished 3rd or 4th in the CEIC and it's hard to determine the quality of each individual's performances from that era. Just because you played in a team that finished 3/4th it doesn't necessarily mean you were underwhelming individually and likewise, it doesn't mean you were at your scintillating best if you were a player who finished in a championship winning team. It's just too hard to discern top performers from the CEIC with the general lack of footage and reports, unless you had a great and a tangible individual record - Puskas & Sarosi for eg.

 

[harms]

He does seem like a centrally oriented player who was equally at ease in both flanks as a free roaming player of sorts.



The volley at 3.51

This draft was interesting as there were a couple of Yugoslavian who were interesting to watch or read up about (Milutinovic, Bobec, Vukas and Kostic). Unfortunately Yugoslavia finished 3rd or 4th in the CEIC and it's hard to determine the quality of each individual's performances from that era. Just because you played in a team that finished 3/4th it doesn't necessarily mean you were underwhelming individually and likewise, it doesn't mean you were at your scintillating best if you were a player who finished in a championship winning team. It's just too hard to discern top performers from the CEIC with the general lack of footage and reports, unless you had a great and a tangible individual record - Puskas & Sarosi for eg.

He was originally left-sided I mean, from what I've read about him, Theon plays him at his best position at the moment.

That's a serious problem. I don't really have an idea on how to judge him, hence my question to elaborate on his performances (on which Theon didn't reply). Other than he scored in 2 games when they trashed a weak Italy and that he scored against the Myghty Magyars I don't know a thing.

Was thinking about picking Milutinovic, but, after failing to do a proper research on his CEIC performances, decided not to. He wasn't picked in the end, iirc? It's a shame.

 

[Theon]

They are completely different players. Matthäus, with his engine, drive and directness, was fantastic at what he did - but still, he wasn't as good defensively as he was later, for example (hence the Italy mistake). Van Moer was a different player, he glued that Belgium side together and with his constant running (mostly horizontal and not vertical, like Matthäus) he was a bitch to play against. I'm not sure how it is seen in my compilations, I was afraid of making them too long, but he forced the opponents to make mistakes every fecking minute, he just ran and ran, and in possession he kept the things smooth and was able of picking a fantastic pass or providing a run with the ball forward.

Harms man, what I said is that I watched the Van Moer videos and came to my own conclusion so I'm not dismissing anyway. I think he was a great pick for the 8th round and I like the romanticism of his story - coming back from injury as an older player etc - but I don't think he's in the same league as Matthaus, Bozsik or Edgar Davids (who was twice in the Team of the Tournament, because I know you love those awards ).

He actually looked similar to Davids in style and is clearly a good ballwinner, but the compliations are mostly him chasing the ball around and closing people down. Van Moer looks tidy on the ball but not much more than that, whereas Davids was an outstanding footballer.

Given his style, I think it's important to point out that there is absolutely no chance Van Moer is going to be able to pressure a midfield of Matthaus/Bozsik/Davids/Stielike into making mistakes. Bozsik is in a class of his own with the ball at his feet and he's surrounded by teammates who are good on the ball.

Van Moer can chase around as much as he likes, he won't pressure Bozsik into an error and I fancy Davids to eat him alive anyway if he tries to play get rough

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's a serious problem. I don't really have an idea on how to judge him, hence my question to elaborate on his performances (on which Theon didn't reply).

Tbf, there is scarcely any footage - or match reports for that matter - available to discern their individual performances like I've said before. You also have the likes of Hannapi, Happel and Ocwirk who finished 3rd with Austria in a 6 team CEIC but were given the benefit of the doubt so far and I guess it's only fair we do the same for Vukas here unless there is blatant proof that he was underwhelming in the CEIC.

 

[harms]

I think he was a great pick for the 8th round and I like the romanticism of his story - coming back from injury as an older player etc - but I don't think he's in the same league as Matthaus, Bozsik or Edgar Davids (who was twice in the Team of the Tournament, because I know you love those awards ).

He actually looked similar to Davids in style and is clearly a good ballwinner, but the compliations are mostly him chasing the ball around and closing people down. Van Moer looks tidy on the ball but not much more than that, whereas Davids was an outstanding footballer.

Given his style, I think it's important to point out that there is absolutely no chance Van Moer is going to be able to pressure a midfield of Matthaus/Bozsik/Davids/Stielike into making mistakes. Bozsik is in a class of his own with the ball at his feet and he's surrounded by teammates who are good on the ball.

Van Moer can chase around as much as he likes, he won't pressure Bozsik into an error and I fancy Davids to eat him alive anyway if he tries to play get rough

Well, that's your opinion. I just ask you not to say that it's a fact - in many other opinions, Van Moer is equal or even better than them in terms of performances in this particular tournament.

And no, Davids wasn't twice in the Team of the Tournament, and it's a fact - he only was picked once in 2000.

Van Moer looks tidy but not much more than that? He was one of the best players in history of Belguim football even before 1980, he won Belgium Golden shoe 3 times, and was renown for his passing.

Bozsik won't be bothered by Van Moer's/Schuster pressing? Another opinion. I wasn't impressed with his closed control when I watched him, his standout attributes were his passing and vision, obviously.

 

[harms]

Tbf, there is scarcely any footage - or match reports for that matter - available to discern their individual performances like I've said before. You also have the likes of Hannapi, Happel and Ocwirk who finished 3rd with Austria in a 6 team CEIC but were given the benefit of the doubt so far and I guess it's only fair we do the same for Vukas here unless there is blatant proof that he was underwhelming in the CEIC.

That's the thing - so you can just pick a great player from that era and say that he was as great as he was at his best until proven wrong? I'm not sure that this is a right approach, considering that there are literally minutes of footage from that tournaments and proving an "underwelming performance" is an unreal job. We have a few that he can be sure about (Meazza, Sarosi, Puskas), but when you pick a player without an outstanding record, you should sell him, not being given a free ride.

 

[Theon]

Bozsik won't be bothered by Van Moer's/Schuster pressing? Another opinion. I wasn't impressed with his closed control when I watched him, his standout attributes were his passing and vision, obviously.

I think Bozsik is one of the last players in the draft to be bothered by someone pressing him.

But aye, not only is Van Moer better than Lothar Matthaus it makes complete sense that he'll also wreck havoc to the greatest playmaker in the history of European football.

Absolutely mental.

Do you think Davids and Matthaus will trouble Schuster with their pressing? Surely it works both ways?

 

[harms]

I think Bozsik is one of the last players in the draft to be bothered by someone pressing him.

But aye, not only is Van Moer better than Lothar Matthaus it makes complete sense that he'll also wreck havoc to the greatest playmaker in the history of European football.

Absolutely mental.

Do you think Davids and Matthaus will trouble Schuster with their pressing? Surely it works both ways?

Maybe I'm wrong about Bozsik, but I think that he need a different formation to be at his best, when he has more passing options spread all over the pitch. Van Moer is just a pain in the arse, he won't negate Bozsik, of course, but he will make it more difficult to him. The only real criticism that I read about Boszik was about his lack of mobility - something that makes you an easier target for a pressing tactic. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine more mobile player than young and electrical Schuster.

Bozsik will still be one of the best players on the pitch, he, alongside Schuster, is the best midfielder on the pitch, but he won't dominate the midfield like you say he would. Overall I think that our midfields are almost equal with your being more physical and mine being more mobile. But your side midfielders are also asked to look at the flanks, aren't they?