The Controversial Poll

Raoul

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Should we sell Juan Sebastian Veron, if given a competetive offer this summer (25m or more) - or should be keep him, support him, and hope that he finds his niche at OT ?

Note: Could those who are voting to sell him, please provide a brief explanation as to why.
 
Ideally, United would keep him. But, if they learned of some amazing deal that could be completed, they should look into it. Either way, Pires was terrible his first season, and this year (until his injury) he was the best player in the league, deserving of the Player of the Year award.
 
IMO we have to first analyse what is the reason of his excellent form for Argentina compared to his on/off form for Utd. He has shown flashes of brilliance no doubt, but is not being consistent. His casual approach has cost us a few goals already in the EPL, and he HAS to do something about that.

However watching Scholes at his supreme best against Leeds I realised that the Ginger Prince is IMO much more valuable to us than Veron. If by the end of this season he has not proved himself then (as Stanley said) for the right price - he can go.
 
Before the rumours started that we may buy him last year, I was hoping we could get him. I'd seen him play for Arg' & Lazio on numerous occasions and thought he was class personified. Thing is, since he's been here, I think Fergie has used him wrong. The Seba I saw bossed most games from box to box and had mad skills, at United, he is playing second fiddle not only to Keano, but Bex too. If Bex and Giggsy stayed wide rather than clogging up the middle by coming inside, there's no doubt in my mind Seba would do well. But, for whatever reason this season, Fergie has encouraged less wide play and more central attacks ... "To take away the predictability" I read somewere.

I hope he stays and this summer, United's coaching staff figure out a system that can utilize his undoubted skill and then, he'll show England really how good he is - If he hasn't already by the time the World Cup is over of course.

True United fans would support Seba and encourage him rather than off load him at the first opportunity. Yorke is a different case, he's showing lack of interest so our support isn't warrented for him.

Pires and Angel have been mentioned and although I don't think it should take a full season to acclimatise, sometimes it obviously does.
 
Yorke is a different case, he's showing lack of interest <hr></blockquote>

I don't see how Yorke is showing lack of interest lately - he stayed even though Cole left - but SAF won't let him back in the team. I feel sorry for him, there's no way the treble could have happened without him, and he seems as loyal to the team now as he ever was in spite of the treatment he's got.
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Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>

I don't see how Yorke is showing lack of interest lately - he stayed even though Cole left - but SAF won't let him back in the team. I feel sorry for him, there's no way the treble could have happened without him, and he seems as loyal to the team now as he ever was in spite of the treatment he's got.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Conversely, he's obviously done something to piss Fergie off, otherwise we'd see him in the lineup more. He also prevented us from getting Di Canio. That said, I wish Stam would've resisted the Lazio deal, as I think he and Fergie could've patched things up in time.
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Well I understand that his lack of punctuality, for training etc. had something to do with the original bust up, along with being in the papers a lot - but he can't really be blamed for the latter even if he could have been a bit shrewder.

But surely he's served his penance now?

With the introduction of Forlan into the first team - I think Fergie has no plans to bring him back, and if that is so then I don't agree with that...

Still, only time will tell.
 
Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>I don't see how Yorke is showing lack of interest lately - he stayed even though Cole left - but SAF won't let him back in the team. I feel sorry for him, there's no way the treble could have happened without him, and he seems as loyal to the team now as he ever was in spite of the treatment he's got.</strong><hr></blockquote>Well, I talk to lot's of peeps who've seen him play in the reserves and they are all of the opinion that he does, actually, show a distinct lack of interest. If he wants to make it in the first 11 and prove the doubters wrong, he first has to start in the reserves and like I said, people I know who've watched him and the reports I've read, suggest he couldn't give a shit.
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If Yorke couldn't give a shit then why is he still at United?

Maybe he's being lazy with the reserves, but I don't believe he doesn't want to get back in the team. Does he deserve it? I figure he deserves a few twenty minute runouts anyway.

I'd accept your judgement of his attitude if I saw it on the field in the first team, but the last time he played there, if I'm not mistaken (I often am...), he scored.

Still got dropped immediately afterwards...

My hunch tells me that Alex has washed his hands of him, and I'm not sure that he deserves that...
 
Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>If Yorke couldn't give a shit then why is he still at United?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Easy. He wants to pick up a pay cheque, say that he's a Utd player, win trophies etc. He blocked his own transfer, hence we didn't end up with PDC.

;)
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Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>Before the rumours started that we may buy him last year, I was hoping we could get him. I'd seen him play for Arg' & Lazio on numerous occasions and thought he was class personified. Thing is, since he's been here, I think Fergie has used him wrong. The Seba I saw bossed most games from box to box and had mad skills, at United, he is playing second fiddle not only to Keano, but Bex too. If Bex and Giggsy stayed wide rather than clogging up the middle by coming inside, there's no doubt in my mind Seba would do well. But, for whatever reason this season, Fergie has encouraged less wide play and more central attacks ... "To take away the predictability" I read somewere.

I hope he stays and this summer, United's coaching staff figure out a system that can utilize his undoubted skill and then, he'll show England really how good he is - If he hasn't already by the time the World Cup is over of course.

True United fans would support Seba and encourage him rather than off load him at the first opportunity. Yorke is a different case, he's showing lack of interest so our support isn't warrented for him.

Pires and Angel have been mentioned and although I don't think it should take a full season to acclimatise, sometimes it obviously does.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree about the tactical misuse of Veron. While Fergie wants to utilize the central attack (and thus moves Beckham and Giggs into the middle more), he should utilize every part of the pitch. If he keeps them out wide, and allows Veron the role he plays with Argentina in the middle, then United will be much better off than before. No offense to Scholes (and he is a great player), Veron is better. The situation entirely depends on playing the player correctly. I mean, at the beginning of the season, we saw Scholes totally inept when playing out of position (and no one was saying sell him then). Veron, Beckham and Giggs can all play their ideal roles together, so I don't see any reason to compromise that or give up on one.
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That's pretty cynical Raoul, even though you could be right...

Or is the smiley wink meant to convey 'tongue-in-cheek'?

Dunno if you caught the documentary on him a while back but I thought he came out of it quite well - he seemed to be desperate to play football, and he showed some real human touches.

Eg. He phoned Graham Taylor on 26.05.99 to thank for all he had done for his career. Also he still keeps in touch with a childless English couple who sort of fostered him as though he were their own son when he first arrived in England. They think the world of him.

I'm just curious what solid evidence there is that he's lazy, or disloyal, or grasping as you seemed to suggest? Is it possible he's just been the victim of bad press?
 
mmm...

If Seba loses so many needless balls with our wingers supposedly too much in the centre, near him, then what will he do when they are a lot harder to pick out?

I am guessing that the wingers come inside partly in order to give Seba more passing options. He doesn't have Keano's ability to shield the ball or play under pressure and that's why he's not been a success so far. He's been tried by Alex in various roles, just ahead of the defence, in the centre in front of Keano, as a pure attacking midfielder, on the left, etc but he hasn't found his place.
 
Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>Is it possible he's just been the victim of bad press?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Highly unlikely since the manager sees him in training, as well as at the reserve games he's in. SAF has a legitimate reason for keeping him out of the squad - be it the perception that he parties too much, or a lack of commitment in training etc. I'd love to see a Dwight Yorke revival at OT, but somehow I just don't think it's in the cards.
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Originally posted by Roy:
<strong>mmm...

If Seba loses so many needless balls with our wingers supposedly too much in the centre, near him, then what will he do when they are a lot harder to pick out?

I am guessing that the wingers come inside partly in order to give Seba more passing options. He doesn't have Keano's ability to shield the ball or play under pressure and that's why he's not been a success so far. He's been tried by Alex in various roles, just ahead of the defence, in the centre in front of Keano, as a pure attacking midfielder, on the left, etc but he hasn't found his place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, when you put more players in a more congested area, there is a greater chance that the ball will be given away. Now, you say Beckham and Giggs come in to give him additional options, however, there is moving in from the wing to support a CM, and then there is taking a CM's space on the pitch, and they are doing the latter.
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Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>Well, when you put more players in a more congested area, there is a greater chance that the ball will be given away. Now, you say Beckham and Giggs come in to give him additional options, however, there is moving in from the wing to support a CM, and then there is taking a CM's space on the pitch, and they are doing the latter.</strong><hr></blockquote>Egggzackery ... His options would be far better going forward if he didn't have 2-3 potential pass recipients within 10 yards of him all the time. When he gets the ball, the wingers should be getting into position to recieve the ball ... on the wings ... this stretches the defensive back 4 and the strikers get more space. By having the wingers come inside almost exclusively, most back 4's and a couple of Hamman type mf's simply protect the box by setting up shop about 10-15 yds in front of it.

Anyway, we can all profess to know what's best but none of us do. To me though, Seba is wasted in a '10yd pass playing role' in the center circle. He needs to be taking charge of the attacking options earlier and dictating play but, with Keano and Bex in the team, maybe he's not gonna be able to do that ... Only time will tell.
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If selling Veron means buying 2 world class defenders then I'm sorry to say we should do it.

However, I'm more than willing to give the guy another season to get it right. We're better off with him than without him, it's not like we can't afford to splash out on new players anyway.....
 
Ideally I'd like to keep him for anotehr season but if we are offered our money back then I'd take it. He may be a great player when he plays for Argentina but in all honesty he has not been consistent this year at all. What has he brought to the team that we didnt already have? Nothing in my opinion. He doesn't chase back, he doesn't score much, his passing may be excellent but Becks/Scoles/Keano etc can all spray the passes as well. He misplaces a lot of his passes and doesn't chase back (against Mddlsbro, a couple of times against depo in the 1st game etc). For a player valued at £28mill I would have expected a lot more than we have gotten so far but this is just my opinion. The money we make will finance 1-2 defenders which really has to be the priority now.
 
despite Verons inconsistent performances, Fergie seems to be very fond of him and it is starting to pay off. I'd say to keep him here, as he provided very good backup during our (nearly over) injury crisis and he has played very well in Europe already this season and I think he will soon start to prove himself in the premiership too
 
It a tough call. He is undoubtably world class and could well give us that something special to help us win the CL. but on the other side of the coin, his premiership form is not what we'd expected, even though it is getting better.
With the transfer market the way it is £25million+ could bring us 2 or even 3 top class players.
My gut instinct is keep him but £25million is a lot of money.
 
The poll has already been closed before I can vote, so I can only post my opinion here. I will sell him for anything above 20m, bring in one backup striker and one backup defender, and then return to our old golden midfield which has won us everything just not long ago. You can see because we have already spent too much money on Veron, we havn't replaced our lost of players such as Irwin, Cole, Sheri, Yorke, etc. It's clear that what we need is a backup defender and a fast or skillful forward who can create and take chance in the penalty area, not another beckham-like long ball passer.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>The poll has already been closed before I can vote, </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, I didn't realize that it was an old poll. <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" /> Honestly I'm a bit surprised to see there are still two-third voters who vote to keep Veron. But seeing that it was an old poll before the end of last season, then the result is not surprising.
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>The poll has already been closed before I can vote, so I can only post my opinion here. I will sell him for anything above 20m, bring in one backup striker and one backup defender, and then return to our old golden midfield which has won us everything just not long ago. You can see because we have already spent too much money on Veron, we havn't replaced our lost of players such as Irwin, Cole, Sheri, Yorke, etc. It's clear that what we need is a backup defender and a fast or skillful forward who can create and take chance in the penalty area, not another beckham-like long ball passer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I understand what you saying about our golden midfield, but don't forget they are now a few years older. Keane 31, Giggs will be 30 soon. Also after '99 our midfield seemed to struggle in Europe. Seba is one of the best midfielders in the competition.
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If he can really start to assert himself, being more effiicent with the ball- give it away less, and make more simple passes, his class could emerge, and he would be a player I'd want to have around. But he isn't there yet and I don't think you can't justify the wages etc. and retain him indefinately. For the time being its more constructive to support him, and try to help his confidence.

Seems like he makes things unnecessarily difficult for himself; a little too fancy a lot of the time, a flick here, a chip there- yes that is his strength- his touch and range of passing, however he goes in for too much of this, when a simple pass would do fine. Beckham has the touch too, but most of the time his passing is simple, rather than looking for too much in each pass. Also Keane for example is as efficent a passer as you'll find, especially under pressure.

If Seba had some of Keanos' efficency under pressure, and more reserve for the tricky passes, he could become a powerful influence in midfield.
 
If he can really start to assert himself, being more effiicent with the ball- give it away less, and make more simple passes, his class could emerge, and he would be a player I'd want to have around. But he isn't there yet and I don't think you can't justify the wages etc. and retain him indefinately. For the time being its more constructive to support him, and try to help his confidence.

Seems like he makes things unnecessarily difficult for himself; a little too fancy a lot of the time, a flick here, a chip there- yes that is his strength- his touch and range of passing, however he goes in for too much of this, when a simple pass would do fine. Beckham has the touch too, but most of the time his passing is simple, rather than looking for too much in each pass. Also Keane for example is as efficent a passer as you'll find, especially under pressure.

If Seba had some of Keanos' efficency under pressure, and more reserve for the tricky passes, he could become a powerful influence in midfield.
 
If he can really start to assert himself, being more effiicent with the ball- give it away less, and make more simple passes, his class could emerge, <hr></blockquote>

Gabe, if anyone can do all these, their class will also emerge - even mine!

Veron was not bought to do all these, because all these are expected anyway. He was brought in to give United the magic touch we have lacked since Cantona. If all Veron is going to do is keep things simple, then we could have bought some no name from Division 3 who is reliable to do the job.

We wouldn't have needed to spend so much for those simple things.
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