The Constant Need to React to What Other Clubs Do.

Adisa

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First thread I've created in a while. But felt the need to try to articulate my thoughts in some way. I am surprised by the constant calls by fans to react to what other clubs do. To "steal a march on them" as some would frame it. The reaction to Liverpool potentially signing Caicedo triggered this post but it's something I have been thinking about for a while. Always "we should have signed x player instead of y player" before y player has even had a chance to prove himself.

I have always felt a top club should have convictions in its own approach to the way they build their team. And I am speaking about it's approach to transfers. Erik Ten Hag had and the club had a clear plan for how they wanted the club to function and what areas of the squad needed strengthening before the window started. He wanted to move to a 433, play further up the pitch and with two 8s, to condense the pitch. A tactic he tried at times last season. Apart from that, he wanted competition for places. So many people want us to sign players without thought of how the coach wants us to play.

Now my question is should a potential signing like Caicedo be enough reason to derail a plan? Personally, I do not believe one signing transforms a team. I believe the collective, team chemistry and how a side functions are far more effective. Look again at Caicedo. Yes, he's a good/great player but Liverpool will be playing with an entirely new midfield that has never played together. Will they click immediately to make them title contenders?

Why is there always an overreaction to other teams signing a good player?
 
I agree with this completely. We are trying to create a functional well oiled team with consistency as the main objective.

Maybe this thing of trying to outcompete for top footballers (can we call caciedo that?) as they become available comes at the next stage when you already have a good team but we are not there yet. As you say, I would rather focus on having a complete squad to play the game that the manager wants. So filling all key holes is more important than getting 1-2 top players. This applies also for Kane. I would rather get Hojlund if it also means we were able to get a CM/GK more this season.
 
I think the club itself has been very guilty of that in the past, and will possibly continue to do so (hopefully a little less so). United is wholly fused in that "top club biggest in the world" mythology and a lot of it is about branding, posturing & statement moreso than substance. All the more with results being subpar to that image and identity. This trickle down to some of the fandom.

In short : Insecurity.
 
Plastic Evra said:
I think the club itself has been very guilty of that in the past, and will possibly continue to do so (hopefully a little less so). United is wholly fused in that "top club biggest in the world" mythology and a lot of it is about branding, posturing & statement moreso than substance. All the more with results being subpar to that image and identity. This trickle down to some of the fandom.

In short : Insecurity.
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I think you hit the nail on the head. You can't claim to trust a manager and then second-guess every decision the manager makes.
I look at City, yes they are cheats but there's something they do excellently. They only sign players who are an absolute fit. Even when they want a player, they have value and stick to it. They could afford to blow everyone away for Caicedo, but he probably doesn't fit what the manager is trying to do, so they aren't even the least interested. They do not react to what other clubs are doing. We can claim they can afford not to do so but they have been operating like that pretty much since Pep arrived.
I believe we should operate the same way and I am pleased we have seen some semblance of it this summer.
 
Adisa said:
You can't claim to trust a manager and then second-guess every decision the manager makes.
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I absolutely can. Try and stop me!

I agree that a club should absolutely stick to its own approach, and sign players that fit that approach. However, you can't expect fans to not have thoughts on the matter. Many will think a particular signing actually doesn't fit the approach. Others will believe that the approach itself is wrong. It's what we have a forum for.
 
Adisa said:
I think you hit the nail on the head. You can't claim to trust a manager and then second-guess every decision the manager makes.
I look at City, yes they are cheats but there's something they do excellently. They only sign players who are an absolute fit. Even when they want a player, they have value and stick to it. They could afford to blow everyone away for Caicedo, but he probably doesn't fit what the manager is trying to do, so they aren't even the least interested. They do not react to what other clubs are doing. We can claim they can afford not to do so but they have been operating like that pretty much since Pep arrived.
I believe we should operate the same way and I am pleased we have seen some semblance of it this summer.
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Difference is City have a well structured and balance team which has brought success and only needs fine tuning. United are not in this position

There are a host of area's in our team where we are insufficient in, notably midfield and attack, with wide players who cost over 170milion who don't play like world class wingers.

We've signed 3 players over the total cost of 170 million so far and none of the signings bar Onana have fixed any of the issues which need addressing since we bought in Hojlund for his potential, it's unlikely he can be relied on to be our mainstay striker.

The bottom line is we are not spending wisely, we are continueing to over pay and miss out on shrewd deals. Putting a large amount of resources on another number 10 in Mason Mount will prove to be a huge mistake when we don't have a deputy for Casimero or depth for that matter in midfield
 
The Ferociousness said:
Difference is City have a well structured and balance team which has brought success and only needs fine tuning. United are not in this position

There are a host of area's in our team where we are insufficient in, notably midfield and attack, with wide players who cost over 170milion who don't play like world class wingers.

We've signed 3 players over the total cost of 170 million so far and none of the signings bar Onana have fixed any of the issues which need addressing since we bought in Hojlund for his potential, it's unlikely he can be relied on to be our mainstay striker.

The bottom line is we are not spending wisely, we are continueing to over pay and miss out on shrewd deals. Putting a large amount of resources on another number 10 in Mason Mount will prove to be a huge mistake when we don't have a deputy for Casimero or depth for that matter in midfield
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You have already decided a player can't play a position the play himself says is his natural position.
Also, you argue that we need other players in other positions but the argument is that a lot of the people second-guessing the coach were perfectly happy with us blowing our entire budget on two players.
 
We don’t exist in a vacuum. We only buy players to be better than other teams so we can win things so we need to understand where their squads and transfers are at, plus it’s completely natural to build comparisons and feel worried when we might not come out on top.
 
The Ferociousness said:
The bottom line is we are not spending wisely, we are continueing to over pay and miss out on shrewd deals. Putting a large amount of resources on another number 10 in Mason Mount will prove to be a huge mistake when we don't have a deputy for Casimero or depth for that matter in midfield
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This is utter nonsense, we haven't signed Mount to play as a 10, the window is still open and it's very obvious we are trying to sign a deputy for Casemiro. We also signed an excellent keeper who completely fits what we're trying to do, and have sold multiple players that don't. You're just a moan bag that wants us to be like an FM save.
 
Adisa said:
First thread I've created in a while. But felt the need to try to articulate my thoughts in some way. I am surprised by the constant calls by fans to react to what other clubs do. To "steal a march on them" as some would frame it. The reaction to Liverpool potentially signing Caicedo triggered this post but it's something I have been thinking about for a while. Always "we should have signed x player instead of y player" before y player has even had a chance to prove himself.
I have always felt a top club should have convictions in its own approach to the way they build their team. And I am speaking about it's approach to transfers. Erik Ten Hag had and the club had a clear plan for how they wanted the club to function and what areas of the squad needed strengthening before the window started. He wanted to move to a 433, play further up the pitch and with two 8s, to condense the pitch. A tactic he tried at times last season. Apart from that, he wanted competition for places. So many people want us to sign players without thought of how the coach wants us to play.
Now my question is should a potential signing like Caicedo be enough reason to derail a plan? Personally, I do not believe one signing transforms a team. I believe the collective, team chemistry and how a side functions are far more effective. Look again at Caicedo. Yes, he's a good/great player but Liverpool will be playing with an entirely new midfield that has never played together. Will they click immediately to make them title contenders?
Why is there always an overreaction to other teams signing a good player?
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Didn't know the caf had an HR-department.

Let fans be fans. We like seeing our team do good, but there's obviously competition and we are influenced by what others do. With that, comes the fear of seeing rivals do good and absolutely loving it when they fail. Part of the game and it's behavior. Once that dies, there's no point.
 
This window is bit unsettling tbh, we are the club that looks more professional and our rivals are making some desperate bids. Sort of missing the transfer window chaos that I'm so used to in last 10 years :D
 
matherto said:
We don’t exist in a vacuum. We only buy players to be better than other teams so we can win things so we need to understand where their squads and transfers are at, plus it’s completely natural to build comparisons and feel worried when we might not come out on top.
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The thing is ETH is addressing the areas that need reinforcement and specifically buying players that fit the system and mindset. He’s hamstrung by the number of positions that needed improving and the FFP impacts.

He’s moving on the players who clearly aren’t the right fit. He should, by the end of the summer, have a squad which is mostly in line with what he is looking for and next summer and beyond I would hope we can go and get one or two big signings to keep the squad ticking over.
 
Conor said:
This is utter nonsense, we haven't signed Mount to play as a 10, the window is still open and it's very obvious we are trying to sign a deputy for Casemiro. We also signed an excellent keeper who completely fits what we're trying to do, and have sold multiple players that don't. You're just a moan bag that wants us to be like an FM save.
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You do realise ETH has already experimented with mount in the number 10 role and bruno on the wing? He's also tried playing mount next to Casemiro in pre season and we had no control on possession.

This isn't about FM save so save the lazy comparison. This is about common sense and practicality because we will run into problems finding a role for mount without shifting more effective players around to try and figure out what role he does best in this system
 
The Ferociousness said:
You do realise ETH has already experimented with mount in the number 10 role and bruno on the wing? He's also tried playing mount next to Casemiro in pre season and we had no control on possession.

This isn't about FM save so save the lazy comparison. This is about common sense and practicality because we will run into problems finding a role for mount without shifting more effective players around to try and figure out what role he does best in this system
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You definitely know more and have a better understanding of football than ETH, so I'll concede. There's no way that maybe a couple of pre-season games where everything is in flux might not be the be all and end all of a new player's performance in a given formation.
 
Siorac said:
I absolutely can. Try and stop me!

I agree that a club should absolutely stick to its own approach, and sign players that fit that approach. However, you can't expect fans to not have thoughts on the matter. Many will think a particular signing actually doesn't fit the approach. Others will believe that the approach itself is wrong. It's what we have a forum for.
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"Shut up and trust the manager" was a common refrain here during the tenures of LVG, Mourinho, and Ole. We all know how that ended.

I think ETH has done an excellent job so far and I like what he's building, but I completely agree with your post.
 
Adisa said:
First thread I've created in a while. But felt the need to try to articulate my thoughts in some way. I am surprised by the constant calls by fans to react to what other clubs do. To "steal a march on them" as some would frame it. The reaction to Liverpool potentially signing Caicedo triggered this post but it's something I have been thinking about for a while. Always "we should have signed x player instead of y player" before y player has even had a chance to prove himself.
I have always felt a top club should have convictions in its own approach to the way they build their team. And I am speaking about it's approach to transfers. Erik Ten Hag had and the club had a clear plan for how they wanted the club to function and what areas of the squad needed strengthening before the window started. He wanted to move to a 433, play further up the pitch and with two 8s, to condense the pitch. A tactic he tried at times last season. Apart from that, he wanted competition for places. So many people want us to sign players without thought of how the coach wants us to play.
Now my question is should a potential signing like Caicedo be enough reason to derail a plan? Personally, I do not believe one signing transforms a team. I believe the collective, team chemistry and how a side functions are far more effective. Look again at Caicedo. Yes, he's a good/great player but Liverpool will be playing with an entirely new midfield that has never played together. Will they click immediately to make them title contenders?
Why is there always an overreaction to other teams signing a good player?
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Prime example are posters not wanting us to sign Amrabat but instead go for someone like Tchouameni or Lavia....sure...but will Tchouameni come here to sit on the bench for Casemiro? Can we afford to spend 80-100m on a position we already have possibly the worlds best? Lavia i could understand, but again, i doubt we have the cash to spend that much when we have 2-3 other positions as a higher priority - plus can we afford someone circa 50m+ to sit as a backup?
 
I fully agree with this view on perception and reactions. There’s an element of the grass is greener for me in that we might not even rate a player but the fact a rival did automatically makes them somebody we should have been in for. I also feel there’s a lack of patience in general and understanding to the clubs actions.
Granted this is somewhat based on previous failings but there’s clearly a new ethos the club is looking to employ.

To me I don’t get caught up in name value but what an individual can bring to the team. So as good as some rivals players are they aren’t the only players available or that we could have purchased. As much as I can even get envious too, I’d rather move on that get mad and angry.
 
BetRed said:
Didn't know the caf had an HR-department.

Let fans be fans. We like seeing our team do good, but there's obviously competition and we are influenced by what others do. With that, comes the fear of seeing rivals do good and absolutely loving it when they fail. Part of the game and it's behavior. Once that dies, there's no point.
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5pm ok for you? We need to address disciplinary issue with you
 
What were our gaps last season:

# Keeper
# Midfield due to Eriksen fading in 2nd halves and McFred not bringing anything technical
# Striker/s
# Casemiro replacement
# Better backup to Varane
# Right back upgrade
# Wing/Forward scoring outside of Rashford

To do all those things in 1 window is impossible unless you have some spare half a billion laying around.

Keeper, Midfield and 1 striker was addressed.

Casemiro replacement is swirling around, Varane backup swirling around

Right back upgrade swirling around

To replace Sancho, Antony, Garnacho, Pellistri, Amad with goal scoring forwards / wide men will cost a fortune that i'm not sure anyone outside of Saudi Arabia is able to afford.

We are doing fine, people are just whiny bitches.
 
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I don't think ETH cares about what we say so it's not an issue for me. A big part of the reason why fans worry is because we don't really know what's happening in the background whether it's transfers, or the takeover, we're pretty much in the dark until something happens. And although I fully trust ETH, I don't really know for sure if he's getting what he wants or not. In that sense I get why some fans might be worried when other clubs spend big. At the end of the day we're in a very tough competition.
 
Its called small d*ck energy. The best mindset is to keep progressing steadily, apex predators have tunnel vision, preys have peripheral vision.
 
It's the whole grass is greener thing. A fairly natural phenomenon. Doesn't make it any less annoying mind.
 
I'm enjoying our rivals overpaying in the last minutes.
Imagine if we haven't signed Mount, Chelsea would make stupid demands just because that's the trend.
 
Ish said:
Prime example are posters not wanting us to sign Amrabat but instead go for someone like Tchouameni or Lavia....sure...but will Tchouameni come here to sit on the bench for Casemiro? Can we afford to spend 80-100m on a position we already have possibly the worlds best? Lavia i could understand, but again, i doubt we have the cash to spend that much when we have 2-3 other positions as a higher priority - plus can we afford someone circa 50m+ to sit as a backup?
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Not to be pedantic, but Casemiro is no longer the world best in that position. I will say Rodri is the better player now and has been for a while.
That guy is one immovable rock in that city midfield. We wouldn't worry that much if we had him at the base of our midfield.
 
Adisa said:
First thread I've created in a while. But felt the need to try to articulate my thoughts in some way. I am surprised by the constant calls by fans to react to what other clubs do. To "steal a march on them" as some would frame it. The reaction to Liverpool potentially signing Caicedo triggered this post but it's something I have been thinking about for a while. Always "we should have signed x player instead of y player" before y player has even had a chance to prove himself.
I have always felt a top club should have convictions in its own approach to the way they build their team. And I am speaking about it's approach to transfers. Erik Ten Hag had and the club had a clear plan for how they wanted the club to function and what areas of the squad needed strengthening before the window started. He wanted to move to a 433, play further up the pitch and with two 8s, to condense the pitch. A tactic he tried at times last season. Apart from that, he wanted competition for places. So many people want us to sign players without thought of how the coach wants us to play.
Now my question is should a potential signing like Caicedo be enough reason to derail a plan? Personally, I do not believe one signing transforms a team. I believe the collective, team chemistry and how a side functions are far more effective. Look again at Caicedo. Yes, he's a good/great player but Liverpool will be playing with an entirely new midfield that has never played together. Will they click immediately to make them title contenders?
Why is there always an overreaction to other teams signing a good player?
Click to expand...
I agree with you but it's normal to see such a reaction amongst a large fan base.

But thus far we've made moves in the market to rectify problems that existed in the team, which were hampering us playing a more expansive brand of football in a higher defensive line.

So it was important we made the decision to replace De Gea with a GK who will provide the numerical advantage in the build up phase due to the GK having the advantage of being the free-man against the opponent's high pressing tactics. So having a GK who provides the extra man (+1) against a well coordinated high press was a necessity to build play effectively out of a press or even go direct in transition to the forwards to potentially exploit the space in-behind the opponent's high defensive line. So this signing was a necessity or we would've kept struggling against teams who pressed us high with the GK a clear weakness in that regard.

So if the aim is to play the game in the opponent's half via a higher defensive line, then it's important to have a well coordinated press out of possession which will allow the team to stay in the opponent's half. So eventhough I didn't really have Mason Mount down as a prospective Man Utd signing, I can see why we signed him and why the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal tried to sign him. He will provide something in possession but it's his off the ball game which will help us in defensive transition. And defending transitions is absolutely vital towards controlling any game of football.

And then we're missing the focal point upfront, who will need to hold the ball up and be a target to be hit through the lines. And also he will have the box movement and speed (if possible) to be a big threat in transition and also have the intensity out of possession to help with applying the press in coordination with the rest of the team. And in Hojlund we have that player and I can understand if people have concerns surrounding his age. But as far as profile goes, he's a fit with the way we're attempting to develop the team going forward.

Hopefully we can add Todibo and a first phase midfielder to what we've already done thus far. But we're definitely signing players for a proactive attacking play style to control the game in and out of possession, and it'll be interesting to see how things develop during the season.
 
E-mal said:
Not to be pedantic, but Casemiro is no longer the world best in that position. I will say Rodri is the better player now and has been for a while.
That guy is one immovable rock in that city midfield. We wouldn't worry that much if we had him at the base of our midfield.
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Not at all being pedantic and I would agree if pushed, hence the use of the word “possibly”/arguably/ debatably.
 
We have been playing catch up for over a decade now. In this decade we have never been proactive. So why the surprise at fans being reactive? Especially after a window where we have bought for depth and not quality. If we are now going to bet our house in youth such as Hojlund then why not buy the best youth out there? The club has no vision and the fans are also blindly flapping around.
 
RedBanker said:
We have been playing catch up for over a decade now. In this decade we have never been proactive. So why the surprise at fans being reactive? Especially after a window where we have bought for depth and not quality. If we are now going to bet our house in youth such as Hojlund then why not buy the best youth out there? The club has no vision and the fans are also blindly flapping around.
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On the contrary the club is showing they have a vision through its signings this window for the first time since Jose's Ibra/Pogba window. Why write off Hojlund before he has played here? And ridiculous statement that we have bought for depth and not quality. All 3 signings till now go into first XI aimed at significantly improving the parts and the sum of those parts of the team. Yeah next set of signings are going to be for depth but that's to replace the squad players we are selling so no complaints there.
 
CG1010 said:
On the contrary the club is showing they have a vision through its signings this window for the first time since Jose's Ibra/Pogba window. Why write off Hojlund before he has played here? And ridiculous statement that we have bought for depth and not quality. All 3 signings till now go into first XI aimed at significantly improving the parts and the sum of those parts of the team. Yeah next set of signings are going to be for depth but that's to replace the squad players we are selling so no complaints there.
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Not writing off Hojlund. The two main points you missed by reading between the lines unnecessarily:
1. We have added squad players- Mount/Hojlund aren't gonna tear shit up but will give us depth. Depth which would have mattered if we had quality to begin with. Onana signing can go both ways. Let's see which. So point being again that no player has been signed which immediately grades up the team.
2. How was an established striker not purchased for a team that was crying out for one? Similarly no succession plan for Casemiro. If he nosedives like Matic then God help us. No rotation plan for Varane. No solution of the RB issue. I could go on.

Not every big signing needs to go the Pogba way. He was a bad apple to start with. Many clubs purchase established players. Do all of them fail?
 
CG1010 said:
On the contrary the club is showing they have a vision through its signings this window for the first time since Jose's Ibra/Pogba window. Why write off Hojlund before he has played here? And ridiculous statement that we have bought for depth and not quality. All 3 signings till now go into first XI aimed at significantly improving the parts and the sum of those parts of the team. Yeah next set of signings are going to be for depth but that's to replace the squad players we are selling so no complaints there.
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The fact that you thought that Jose window showed vision is a bit worrying. Signing a former youth product who left us on a free for £89m and who the manager subsequently fell out with, a striker well into his 30s, Mkhitaryan and Eric Bailly is hardly what I'd call vision.

I suppose we did use Mkhi as part of the swap deal that got us Sanchez, so that was some pretty savvy planning for the future after all.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
The fact that you thought that Jose window showed vision is a bit worrying. Signing a former youth product who left us on a free for £89m and who the manager subsequently fell out with, a striker well into his 30s, Mkhitaryan and Eric Bailly is hardly what I'd call vision.

I suppose we did use Mkhi as part of the swap deal that got us Sanchez, so that was some pretty savvy planning for the future after all.
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First Ibra+Pogba window was a different one to Sanchez one so keep your sarcasm to yourself and learn to read.

Second, Jose had a footballing vision (not that I agreed with it) and his brand of defensive football with a sprinkle of players who could create out of nothing was consistent with buying Ibra, Pogba et al. Bailly was great but just injured a lot. And in other windows we have had an erratic approach whether scattergun, quick band aid or opporunistic based on who was available. Not like this window where fitting in with the overall tactical plan is paramount rather than buying based on a reaction to who is doing what.
 
Adisa said:
First thread I've created in a while. But felt the need to try to articulate my thoughts in some way. I am surprised by the constant calls by fans to react to what other clubs do. To "steal a march on them" as some would frame it. The reaction to Liverpool potentially signing Caicedo triggered this post but it's something I have been thinking about for a while. Always "we should have signed x player instead of y player" before y player has even had a chance to prove himself.
I have always felt a top club should have convictions in its own approach to the way they build their team. And I am speaking about it's approach to transfers. Erik Ten Hag had and the club had a clear plan for how they wanted the club to function and what areas of the squad needed strengthening before the window started. He wanted to move to a 433, play further up the pitch and with two 8s, to condense the pitch. A tactic he tried at times last season. Apart from that, he wanted competition for places. So many people want us to sign players without thought of how the coach wants us to play.
Now my question is should a potential signing like Caicedo be enough reason to derail a plan? Personally, I do not believe one signing transforms a team. I believe the collective, team chemistry and how a side functions are far more effective. Look again at Caicedo. Yes, he's a good/great player but Liverpool will be playing with an entirely new midfield that has never played together. Will they click immediately to make them title contenders?
Why is there always an overreaction to other teams signing a good player?
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I think you’re using one example to make a point, but that one is example is not a good one, as we should be reacting in this instance.

When a potentially world class player in a position we should be strengthening is available, we should be going all out to get that player. These opportunities don’t come around very often.
 
I have no issue with "we should have signed X player rather than Y player" posts in and of themselves, even if Y player hasn't really played for us yet. You can have pre-existing preferences for players and not feel the need to change them just because your team has signed a player you didn't rate as much.

What does baffle me is the "I don't understand why we signed Y instead of X" posts, where X and Y are wildly different players who would take up different positions in the team. Because it should be pretty bloody obvious that you're not comparing like for like.

Caicedo v Mount being a case in point. I can 100% understand thinking Caicedo is a better player than Mount. I think so too. But I can't wrap my head around why anyone would ask "why sign Mount instead of Caicedo?" when they're presumably able to see that in the set-up we actually play Caicedo would play in Casemiro's position rather than Mount's. Just as if he had signed for Liverpool he wasn't going to be challenging Mac Allister or Szoboszlai for their AM positions, he was going to be playing as the DM.

There's no more mystery to it than that, so when people ask that question (as several have) it just comes across as whining that they didn't get the shiniest toy rather than having serious opinions about the team.
 
RedBanker said:
Not writing off Hojlund. The two main points you missed by reading between the lines unnecessarily:
1. We have added squad players- Mount/Hojlund aren't gonna tear shit up but will give us depth. Depth which would have mattered if we had quality to begin with. Onana signing can go both ways. Let's see which. So point being again that no player has been signed which immediately grades up the team.
2. How was an established striker not purchased for a team that was crying out for one? Similarly no succession plan for Casemiro. If he nosedives like Matic then God help us. No rotation plan for Varane. No solution of the RB issue. I could go on.

Not every big signing needs to go the Pogba way. He was a bad apple to start with. Many clubs purchase established players. Do all of them fail?
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I am not fully understanding you. One hand you are criticising that (apparently) United have bought squad players and then criticising that United hasn't bought squad players for backup for Casemiro and Varane - even as we are linked to a rotation CB and CM.

Mount has been a great creater of chances and more importantly allows manager to play in his preferred formation. So an upgrade over Erikson. How would Hojlund give us only depth if he is our only #9 :wenger:
 
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