The Americas Draft, QF4: M/M/R vs M. Goodman

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
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Oct 19, 2012
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NOTE: Voters are encouraged to read the managers' write-ups and arguments before voting. Votes cannot be changed once submitted.

TEAM MAZ/MAR/R

Match Write-Up

Subs: Antonio 'Coutinho', Oscar Mas, Mauro Ramos, Jair da Rosa Pinto, Jorge Burruchaga.
Link to brief player profiles
  • Main approach: outrun the opposition and cover more ground than them. Tire them out and punish their mistakes with our fluidity and variety of attacking approaches.
  • Defensive line: medium-deep (i.e. not parking the bus); Marzolini will be more conservative, whilst Nelinho will be more adventurous.
  • Attacking approach: stretch the field by getting the ball out wide and creating spaces in the middle for the danger men. Force Goodman's team to attract their attentions out wide with Sivori/Zagallo and Ghiggia/Nelinho, creating space in the middle to drift in/play players into
The approach will be the same as before with two hardworking, tricky players out wide, a complete midfield, solid defence, and a potent goalscorer up front, but this time, we have improved our defence with Luis Pereira partnering up with Gamarra and the magical, dynamic Sivori partnering Sanchez. Our team is still filled with hardworking players who will cover lots of the ground and prevent the opponent from getting the time and space to play their game, but this time, we have more creativity and penetration up front with Sivori entering the side.

With Luis Pereira now entering the side, our defence is now a fortress compared to before. He and Nelinho possess a good understanding of each other having played together in the 1974 World Cup, making our right side more secure than before. Our central core has become much stronger with the more complete, calm Pereira accompanying the tough Gamarra in the defence. With Pereira, we have yet another player comfortable on the ball who can also play it out, putting less pressure on Didi and Goncalves to start off attacks. This is all on top of Bravo being our keeper, who can allow the defence to play the ball off of him in case pressure needs to be relieved.

Going forward, with the added threat of Sivori in the side, we are more potent and likely to score goals than before. Sanchez is still our main striker, but now, he has less pressure on him to score goals with Sivori in the team. Sivori's all-rounded attacking qualities, including his mazy dribbling, his quickness and creativity on the ball, and his finishing, will allow our team to play with greater freedom going forward and pull Goodman's defence all over the place. Zagallo can also come inside into the midfield and into space, allowing Sivori to drift to the left and isolate defenders for him to be 1-on-1. All of this will pull Goodman's team towards our left side, leaving our right side open for Ghiggia and Nelinho to exploit with their pace and ability on the ball. Sanchez, of course, will focus on scoring goals as usual.

In the end, we complement our team's battling spirit and leadership with finesse, flair, and composure, giving us all of the tools needed to win this match.

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TEAM M. GOODMAN

I'm going to keep my OP very short and simple, but will elaborate with player profiles and whatnot in the game thread.

Dunga offers the defence protection, but also plays his anchorman role -- his job is to get the ball forward when not defending. As Mazhar noted in my last fixture, Ardiles had a tendency to drift to the left in games -- though he did frequently start on the right. To avoid any complications here, I've started him on the left. He's box to box -- Dunga won't venture forward, but Ardiles will. His job is to link defence with attack, to carry the ball, literally, from box to box.

There are two changes to my last starting XI -- Francescoli replaces Riquelme, Sanchez replaces Valdivia. Both are immediate upgrades. In terms of work-rate, I've added two attacking players who will never stop running. Aside from that, in Francescoli I've added a player capable of winning games by himself. Francescoli was an immensely gifted player, capable of playing almost anywhere across the front line, but here I've placed him in an attacking midfield role -- one that is immediately familiar to him. I'm looking to Enzo to dictate my team's attacking play. As such, it was a difficult decision to leave Crespo out once again -- Enzo and Crespo formed a formidable partnership at River Plate. However, I think that Batistuta offers more of a threat as a sole striker leading the line.

My back line is unchanged. Once again, it is marshaled by Carlos Alberto, one of the greatest right-backs in the history of the game. Lucio, one of the greatest Brazilian CBs of all time, plays RCB and is complimented by Hurtado -- the most capped international in this entire draft -- who plays at LCB. At LB, I have Mascheroni, a World Cup winner with Uruguay.

On the right wing is Willington Ortiz, perhaps the greatest Colombian player ever. His dribbling ability is sublime, but also a truly innovative attacking player in every sense. On the other wing, as previously mentioned, Alexis Sanchez comes in for Valdivia. I'm relying on Sanchez to track back here -- not something he'll have a problem with, as it's pretty much a native concept to his game. Finally, between the sticks, I have Maspoli. Winner of the Golden Glove and World Cup with Uruguay in 1950.

I honestly don't think that either side runs away with this fixture. Both have quality in every area. However, I do think that my team is the more balanced of the two and look forward to discussing this in the thread.

Good luck.
 
@mazhar13 @Marty1968 @RedTiger @Mciahel Goodman

Good luck, gents.

Note: I went with the latest PM (from Marty). The player profiles pushed it over the character limit, so I will make a separate post in the main thread and edit in a link to that in the OP. Let me know if something's missing.

PS Also edited out a reference to a non-existing video.
 
First thing that comes to mind is that this is the sort of game were the managers would love the "upgrade from the spoils of war" system to be in place.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Good luck, gents.

Note: I went with the latest PM (from Marty). The player profiles pushed it over the character limit, so I will make a separate post in the main thread and edit in a link to that in the OP. Let me know if something's missing.

PS Also edited out a reference to a non-existing video.
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What? My PM had nothing different to what Marty sent you, though. It also has a link to the player profiles in the main thread.
 
A good compilation of Dunga's game against Italy in '94. Showcases much of what is often forgotten about the Brazilian, his sublime positional play, as well as his passing and ability to control a game from deep. As well as his tackling, of course.
 
mazhar13 said:
What? My PM had nothing different to what Marty sent you, though. It also has a link to the player profiles in the main thread.
Click to expand...

Well, it ain't my business - but then it seems his PM was superfluous, no? You ain't co-ordinated? Sounds like a shabby operation to me.
 
I see that Goodman's backline is there for the taking for my team. Hugo Sanchez is very difficult to contain with his excellent movement and predator instinct causing problems for so many defences, but with Sivori in my team as well, I have no idea about how Goodman's backline can manage my attacks. Sivori was quite a potent goalscorer who was adept at heading the ball as well (though it did mean that he received a few kicks to the face; again, that's where his bravery comes in). Sivori's dribbling, trickery, flair, and movement combined with Zagallo's movement and intelligence should cause Carlos Alberto all sorts of problems as well. Should he follow Zagallo or let him be in space in order to watch Sivori? What will do Dunga do as well? Should he be stuck to Sivori and create gaps for Didi or Zagallo, or should he stay where he is and cause problems for Carlos Alberto?

All of this is being mentioned whilst we have Hugo Sanchez taking on Lucio. Don't get me wrong, Lucio's not bad here, but he'll have lots of trouble dealing with Hugo's movement and positioning. He'll also have to be careful about Sivori if he decides to make a run through on goal.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Well, it ain't my business - but then it seems his PM was superfluous, no? You ain't co-ordinated? Sounds like a shabby operation to me.
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'Tis a rare blip. We normally have these things sorted out.

So...will you put my profile up, then?
 
mazhar13 said:
I see that Goodman's backline is there for the taking for my team. Hugo Sanchez is very difficult to contain with his excellent movement and predator instinct causing problems for so many defences, but with Sivori in my team as well, I have no idea about how Goodman's backline can manage my attacks. Sivori was quite a potent goalscorer who was adept at heading the ball as well (though it did mean that he received a few kicks to the face; again, that's where his bravery comes in). Sivori's dribbling, trickery, flair, and movement combined with Zagallo's movement and intelligence should cause Carlos Alberto all sorts of problems as well. Should he follow Zagallo or let him be in space in order to watch Sivori? What will do Dunga do as well? Should he be stuck to Sivori and create gaps for Didi or Zagallo, or should he stay where he is and cause problems for Carlos Alberto?

All of this is being mentioned whilst we have Hugo Sanchez taking on Lucio. Don't get me wrong, Lucio's not bad here, but he'll have lots of trouble dealing with Hugo's movement and positioning. He'll also have to be careful about Sivori if he decides to make a run through on goal.
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I can't agree with this, it definitely isn't there for the taking. Six of my seven defensive players are World Cup winners. If anything, I see it the other way.
 
From first glance both sides seem very similar in their set up.

I agree with @antohan combined side. Only one questionable is Ortiz or Ghiggia.
 
A. Sanchez, being fed by Francescoli, down the Mazhar's right flank (especially on counters) is asking for trouble -- spells goals to me. Not to mention Ortiz stretching the other flank, cutting inside, or outside, as he has been known to do. With Batigol bullying any CB he comes up against.

This game definitely has goals in it, for both sides, admittedly.
 
And for anyone who has doubts on my defence having issues against his front line, here's Luis Pereira dominating the likes of Muller and Heynckes against West Germany:


Also, Gamarra held his own against great attacking players in Yekini, Kanu, Henry, Trezeguet, and Djorkaeff, only conceding 2 goals in 1998. His positioning and anticipation ensured that the opposition wouldn't have a chance to score against Paraguay.
 


Imagine Ortiz displaying some of this dribbling ability :drool:
 
@mazhar13 we should both vote for ourselves here, it will count the other vote out.

Just because of how the poll isn't visible.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
A. Sanchez, being fed by Francescoli, down the Mazhar's right flank (especially on counters) is asking for trouble -- spells goals to me. Not to mention Ortiz stretching the other flank, cutting inside, or outside, as he has been known to do. With Batigol bullying any CB he comes up against.

This game definitely has goals in it, for both sides, admittedly.
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Alexis won't be Nelinho's biggest test. He's faced better wide players than him, most notably Dragan Dzajic against Yugoslavia in the 1974 World Cup, keeping a clean sheet and keeping Dzajic relatively quiet as well. I should also mention that he had Luis Pereira covering for him whenever he went forward, and both formed a great partnership together. Even when you look at the above clip I posted, notice how Luis Pereira does such a good job of covering for Ze Maria whenever he gets out of position. If Sanchez tries to cut inside towards goal, Luis Pereira will be there to snuff out the danger.

Also, regarding Francescoli, you have Tito around who's was pretty much Varela's successor for Penarol and Uruguay. Whilst Francescoli is a quality player, in Tito, I have someone whose energy levels, determination, fighting spirit, and dogged approach to the game will ensure that Francescoli won't have the freedom to play his natural game.
 
mazhar13 said:
Alexis won't be Nelinho's biggest test. He's faced better wide players than him, most notably Dragan Dzajic against Yugoslavia in the 1974 World Cup, keeping a clean sheet and keeping Dzajic relatively quiet as well. I should also mention that he had Luis Pereira covering for him whenever he went forward, and both formed a great partnership together. Even when you look at the above clip I posted, notice how Luis Pereira does such a good job of covering for Ze Maria whenever he gets out of position. If Sanchez tries to cut inside towards goal, Luis Pereira will be there to snuff out the danger.
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On the counter, with Nelinho getting forward so often, I'd have to disagree. Sanchez's pace is something I'm backing all day long.

Also, regarding Francescoli, you have Tito around who's was pretty much Varela's successor for Penarol and Uruguay. Whilst Francescoli is a quality player, in Tito, I have someone whose energy levels, determination, fighting spirit, and dogged approach to the game will ensure that Francescoli won't have the freedom to play his natural game.
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Again, I can't agree. Enzo was tackled so often throughout his career, and it never mattered much. He also faced tougher challenges than Tito -- Brazil team comes to mind. This is the guy who won Copa Americas almost singlehanded. Although, maybe some will disagree. I do think I provide him with an incredible platform, though, the type he never had (and he still performed to the highest level).
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
A good compilation of Dunga's game against Italy in '94. Showcases much of what is often forgotten about the Brazilian, his sublime positional play, as well as his passing and ability to control a game from deep. As well as his tackling, of course.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that Dunga played alongside Mauro Silva, another defensive midfielder, in a more defensive Brazil team during that World Cup. Parreira sacrificed Brazilian flair for defensive solidity and organization, and whilst Dunga was a part of it, he wasn't the sole major factor in that side.

On top of that, Sivori often drifted out to the left inside channel and take on players from there, so if that happens, what will Dunga do? What will Dunga do if Zagallo drifts inside into the midfield?
 
antohan said:
Who cares? Nobody can see the scoreline anyway.
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I know, but Chester had an issue before in the Enigma-EAP match where voters were not visible. Since Goodman voted, I'll have to do so now anyways.
 
mazhar13 said:
On top of that, Sivori often drifted out to the left inside channel and take on players from there, so if that happens, what will Dunga do? What will Dunga do if Zagallo drifts inside into the midfield?
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That is true, of course. However, Alberto is playing on that side. Between the two of them, I don't think there's much of a problem. Both are sublimely intelligent, both understand when to go, when to stay, and both are positionally excellent. Dunga is a sitting midfielder, if he gets dragged to the right (or left), Ardiles will simply track back, as is his remit here when not in possession of the ball. I don't see it as a major problem tbh.
 
mazhar13 said:
On top of that, Sivori often drifted out to the left inside channel and take on players from there, so if that happens, what will Dunga do? What will Dunga do if Zagallo drifts inside into the midfield?
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Francescoli did exactly the same.

The more I look at it the formations look very much identical :)
 
Let's avoid any mess here, lads: @mazhar13 votes for himself - and that's that for the whole management team.

@Marty1968 and @RedTiger can vote too, of course. But their votes won't count if they opt for team Maz/Mar/T. If they genuinely feel that Goodman has their number, however, they are free to vote for him - and the votes will stand.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
On the counter, with Nelinho getting forward so often, I'd have to disagree. Sanchez's pace is something I'm backing all day long.
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So, Sanchez won't track back then? That means Nelinho's free to link up with Ghiggia and overload the right flank? Thanks!

Mciahel Goodman said:
Again, I can't agree. Enzo was tackled so often throughout his career, and it never mattered much. He also faced tougher challenges than Tito -- Brazil team comes to mind. This is the guy who won Copa Americas almost singlehanded. Although, maybe some will disagree. I do think I provide him with an incredible platform, though, the type he never had (and he still performed to the highest level).
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Oh, no doubt about his pedigree with Uruguay, but Goncalves faced some of the best attacking talents around himself and contained them as well. Against Benfica, he faced both Coluna and Eusebio among others, and he only conceded 2 goals in 3 matches against them. In the 1966 Intercontinental Cup, he faced Real Madrid and attacking talents like Amancio and Gento. He also rallied an older Penarol team to beat a younger, more energetic, free-flowing River Plate team in the 1966 Copa Libertadores. This isn't a player who will let Francescoli get away with playing his game. If anything, Francescoli will have a tough time exerting his influence.
 
One thing Goodman didn't highlight is how he'll have to deal with Didi here. Goodman hasn't mentioned anything at all about that, and from what I can see, he's just letting Didi run the game at the moment. None of the players in Goodman's side can really unsettle Didi 1-on-1 as well, as Didi's excellent technique on the ball allows him to keep possession even under intense pressure.
 
Ardilles looks a bit meh compared to other names on the pitch. Specially when he is up against Didi. Was he really a great player or I am under some wrong impression?
 
Gandhi said:
Ardilles looks a bit meh compared to other names on the pitch. Specially when he is up against Didi. Was he really a great player or I am under some wrong impression?
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Ardiles definitely wasn't "meh". A pivotal part of that World Cup winning Argentinian midfield.
 
Gandhi said:
Ardilles looks a bit meh compared to other names on the pitch. Specially when he is up against Didi. Was he really a great player or I am under some wrong impression?
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Ardiles is very good, but he's having to deal with too much when it comes to my midfield. Didi can't be contained by just one man hassling him, and if Ardiles decides to come up to face him, that will leave ample room for my attacking players to exploit.
 
mazhar13 said:
So, Sanchez won't track back then? That means Nelinho's free to link up with Ghiggia and overload the right flank? Thanks!
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Not quite correct, no. Sanchez will track back, however, since when has that prevented him from being blistering on the counter? Never.
 
My vote was decided on player for player opinion

Maspoli >>>> Bravo + 1 MG
Carlos Alberto > Nelinho + 2 MG
Pereira > Lucio +1 MMR
Hurtado Gamarra is a tie ( I value the experience, most capped player in the draft should stand for something, But cant overlook Gamarra in 1998)-
marzolini >> >> Mascheroni+ 2 MMR
Didi> Ardilles +3 MMR
Dunga> Nestor +3MG
Sanchez> Zagallo ( for what he offers going both ways and his tenacity) +4MG
Sivori and Francescoli is a tie -
Ortiz and Ghiggia is a tie -
Batistuta > Sanchez+5 MG

Taking tactics into the equation, this one is too close to call. Won't be surprised if it goes to penalties.
 
mazhar13 said:
Oh, no doubt about his pedigree with Uruguay, but Goncalves faced some of the best attacking talents around himself and contained them as well. Against Benfica, he faced both Coluna and Eusebio among others, and he only conceded 2 goals in 3 matches against them. In the 1966 Intercontinental Cup, he faced Real Madrid and attacking talents like Amancio and Gento. He also rallied an older Penarol team to beat a younger, more energetic, free-flowing River Plate team in the 1966 Copa Libertadores. This isn't a player who will let Francescoli get away with playing his game. If anything, Francescoli will have a tough time exerting his influence.
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I just don't quite buy it. Goncalves was an excellent player, but Enzo faced players just as good. I'll explain a bit more in depth.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Not quite correct, no. Sanchez will track back, however, since when has that prevented him from being blistering on the counter? Never.
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Nelinho was an energetic full back who had the pace to recover. Plus, Luis Pereira is one of the best at defending the right channel. How can it be that Sanchez will have the freedom to go forward, particularly when, with Tito and Didi in our midfield, we are able to win many second balls?
 


Let's not forget who's in goal for Mazher here, either. Claudio Bravo -- a man very prone to mistakes. Whatever Zlatan can do, I back Batistuta to equal (or better).
 
Good point that from @Mciahel Goodman, in a game this tight goalkeepers could decide it.

@mazhar13 will Bravo be distributing with his feet i.e. the reason Guardiola signed him? Are the defenders adept at receving the ball from the goalkeeper from a goal kick facing their own goal?
 
Gandhi said:
Ardilles looks a bit meh compared to other names on the pitch.
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The Ardilles on the teamsheet is certainly meh, Ardiles on the other hand was a very good box-to-box/all-round midfielder. Hardworking and surprisingly capable on the ball for someone of his defensive talent.
 
What about the gap between your midfield and attack? Nestor is sitting awfully deep here. As good as Didi was, I don't see him running the centre of the park by himself in a game of such fine margins. Especially when my attacking players are all immensely hard working, they defend as a matter of fact, with perhaps the only exception being Ortiz.
antohan said:
The Ardilles on the teamsheet is certainly meh
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Woops, Ardiles as in Osvaldo Ardiles :lol:
 
DavidG said:
My vote was decided on player for player opinion

Maspoli >>>> Bravo + 1 MG
Carlos Alberto > Nelinho + 2 MG
Pereira > Lucio ** MMR
Hurtado Gamarra is a tie ( I value the experience, most capped player in the draft should stand for something, But cant overlook Gamarra in 1998)-
marzolini >> >> Mascheroni+ 2 MMR
Didi> Ardilles +3 MMR
Dunga> Nestor +3MG
Sanchez> Zagallo ( for what he offers going both ways and his tenacity) +4MG
Sivori and Francescoli is a tie -
Ortiz and Ghiggia is a tie -
Batistuta > Sanchez+5 MG

Taking tactics into the equation, this one is too close to call. Won't be surprised if it goes to penalties.
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Here we go again :lol:

Football doesn't work like that. Batistuta isn't competing with Hugo Sánchez, nor is Maspoli competing with Bravo. It's only really in midfield you could do that, and then, you would have to compare units.

Take your Sanchez vs Zagallo. Sanchez will be more incisive, granted, and Nelinho isn't exactly the best RB around. On the other hand, Carlos Alberto is probably one of the best in the draft and could influence the game greatly... but he is against Zagallo, who is the sort of LM/LW you would want to contain him.

You keep going and there are battles each side wins (real ones that would happen on the pitch) and it is pretty even, bar a massive elephant in the room no one seems to be picking up.
 
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