The alternative timelines thread (make sure to read the OP)

Fortitude

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Take any from the below as singular entities and extrapolate its timeline in the way you perceive it. Do not conflate one scenario with another; all scenarios start from exactly what was at the time


Feel free to create some scenarios I’ve missed or others for different clubs or nations. Let’s see what rabbit holes can be explored.



  • There is no Munich and the Babes see out their careers organically
  • Terry Venables joins Manchester United; Sir Alex Ferguson joins Arsenal
  • Paul Gascoigne joins Manchester United instead of Tottenham Hotspur in 1988
  • Eric Cantona joins Liverpool instead of Manchester United
  • Alan Shearer joins Manchester United instead of Blackburn Rovers
  • Roy Keane joins Blackburn Rovers instead of Manchester United
  • Jaap Stam doesn’t leave Manchester United
  • Gabriel Batistuta joins Manchester United in 2000 instead of Roma
  • Ronaldinho joins Manchester United instead of PSG
  • The Scholes goal vs Porto is allowed
  • The Glazers are prevented from purchasing Manchester United
  • Roy Keane doesn’t leave Manchester United by “mutual consent”
  • Darren Fletcher’s career at Manchester United is not derailed
  • Dimitar Berbatov does not join Manchester United
  • Xavi and Cristiano Ronaldo swap deal goes through
  • Wesley Sneijder joins Manchester United instead of Inter Milan
  • Nani’s not given the yellow card in the Real Madrid game
  • Jose Mourinho is handed the United job as replacement to SAF
  • Eden Hazard joins Manchester United instead of Chelsea
  • Toni Kroos joins Manchester United instead of Real Madrid
  • Arturo Vidal joins Manchester United instead of Juventus
  • Manuel Neuer signs for the club in 2016
  • Ilkay Gundogan joins United instead of Manchester City
  • Ole gets Haaland
 
Fortitude said:
Paul Gascoigne joins Manchester United instead of Tottenham Hotspur in 1988
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Absolutely nothing really changes, would be my semi-educated guess.

Same applies to the Darren Fletcher and Berbatov scenarios, albeit for different reasons. (It is, of course, possible you'd have kept Tevez in the latter case, but I'm not convinced Ferguson appreciated how much ability he really had.)
 
One of the biggest “what if” for me is what if Barcelona don’t get past Chelsea in that CL semifinal. There were many dubious calls in that match, but if we face Chelsea rather than Barcelona I’m sure we win against Chelsea.

At that point we become the first team to retain the CL, and we’ve won our fourth CL. Who knows how things might have gone after that. Maybe Ronaldo doesn’t leave? Maybe some players like Benzema or Varane end up coming to us instead of Madrid. Maybe we follow that up with another win the year after ?
 
I don't think Gascoigne's career trajectory necessarily changes that much had he moved to United instead of Spurs. Chances are he'd still be linked heavily with a move to the richest league in the world after Italia '90. It was a different power dynamic and Giggs was perennially linked with moves away and said he was keen to try Serie A when the opportunity arose. Perhaps Gascoigne avoids the cruciate injury, but his vulnerability and volatility had inevitable consequences, irrespective of where he was or who was his boss.

The Porto game and disallowed Scholes goal is most interesting from a Mourinho perspective. He already had a UEFA Cup in the bag and his trajectory was booming upwards either way, but potentially the destination changes. For United I think there was still a long way to go to the final - a Lyon side who'd top their CL group with United the following season, a Deportivo team who United had some good battles with around that time, then any of Monaco/Chelsea/Arsenal in the final.

To throw another one into the mix, what happens to Chelsea if they don't beat Liverpool 2-1 on the final day of the 2002/03 season to clinch Champions League football and Abramovich doesn't take them over?
 
Cloud7 said:
One of the biggest “what if” for me is what if Barcelona don’t get past Chelsea in that CL semifinal. There were many dubious calls in that match, but if we face Chelsea rather than Barcelona I’m sure we win against Chelsea.

At that point we become the first team to retain the CL, and we’ve won our fourth CL. Who knows how things might have gone after that. Maybe Ronaldo doesn’t leave? Maybe some players like Benzema or Varane end up coming to us instead of Madrid. Maybe we follow that up with another win the year after ?
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Wasn't he trying to go to Madrid the year before? I think his heart was always in Madrid and it wouldn't have made a difference except he'd have an extra champions league.
 
Cloud7 said:
One of the biggest “what if” for me is what if Barcelona don’t get past Chelsea in that CL semifinal. There were many dubious calls in that match, but if we face Chelsea rather than Barcelona I’m sure we win against Chelsea.

At that point we become the first team to retain the CL, and we’ve won our fourth CL. Who knows how things might have gone after that. Maybe Ronaldo doesn’t leave? Maybe some players like Benzema or Varane end up coming to us instead of Madrid. Maybe we follow that up with another win the year after ?
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We'd have beaten Chelsea but Ronaldo was off to Madrid regardless.
 
In an alternate timeline we get rid of McT early and all his forthcoming minutes instead go to Angel Gomes.

One being an extremely press resistant player with superb technique and an eye for a defence splitting pass. The other just being generally a bit shit…but was tall, strong and could run a bit

God damn we’ve made some truly terrible choices over the last decade
 
Big Pete doesn't save Bergkamps pen in the 99 FA cup semi final.
 
Another "what if" scenario -

What if the Sheikh doesn't purchase Man City, and cheat relentlessly over the last 16 years?

What would the league have looked like? Who would have won it the most over the years, and where would Saint Pep have ended up?

I'm guessing it would have been a mixture of Liverpool and Chelsea winning most of the titles, with one or two won by us, and a couple of wins for Arsenal as well.

I doubt Pep would have ever considered the United job after Fergie retired, and I don't think he'd have been successful if he did due to our horrible management structure above him. I think he'd have gone to PSG instead.
 
horsechoker said:
Wasn't he trying to go to Madrid the year before? I think his heart was always in Madrid and it wouldn't have made a difference except he'd have an extra champions league.
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DarkLord1984 said:
We'd have beaten Chelsea but Ronaldo was off to Madrid regardless.
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That was just one of the possible things that may have happened, but even if he left, having won two CL’s in a row I can’t help but think we might have done more in terms of strengthening the team to consolidate that position
 
Cloud7 said:
That was just one of the possible things that may have happened, but even if he left, having won two CL’s in a row I can’t help but think we might have done more in terms of strengthening the team to consolidate that position
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Alternatively you would have done even less. I don't think Fergusons  lack of succes is what hindered you in the market. Think it is pretty obvious that it is the opposite. Him keeping you as consistently one of the best teams in the world at the end of his tenure despite not really going for the expensive players that moved in that time was very appreciated by the Glazers. And they didn't really open the chequebook until he first demanded Van Persie and then when they saw how far it is possible to fall without Ferguson at the helm in the summer of 2014
 
To add to the keeping Stam part, signing Van der sar from Juventus.

After the treble, with Schmeichel leaving, our defence really suffered with having goalkeepers like Bosnich, Barthez (who I liked), Howard, Carroll. If we keep Stam and immediately replace Schmeichel (or at least the season after), who knows what would've happened as everything in front of the defence was still top quality for another few years.

I was also never keen on Veron, to be honest. If the plan was to always move Scholes further forward and have someone else partner Keane, someone like Mauro Silva would've been my preference. Or, if we were keeping a midfield two of Scholes and Keane and wanted a 10 inbetween them and Ruud, I would've loved a Valeron/Rui Costa type. I'd also say Juninho but, by 2001, I think he was on the decline, and Zidane also moved in the window we bought Veron but I don't think we would've got him.

Something like:

Van der sar
Neville Ferdinand Stam Silvestre
Keane Silva/Scholes
Beckham Costa/Valeron/Scholes Giggs
van Nistelrooy​
 
I think with the Gascoigne one, he would have ended up far better off regarding his mental health if he had joined us.

It's clear he needed an excellent man manager who understood psychology like Fergie to mentor him. Fergie could have provided that guidance he needed in terms of that fatherly arm around the shoulder, as well as not being afraid to discipline him when necessary to keep him in line.

I think his career could have been prolonged and he could have stayed off the sauce, and would be in a far better place mentally and physically than he is now.

It's a pity he was swayed by Spurs purchasing his parents a house.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
I think with the Gascoigne one, he would have ended up far better off regarding his mental health if he had joined us.

It's clear he needed an excellent man manager who understood psychology like Fergie to mentor him. Fergie could have provided that guidance he needed in terms of that fatherly arm around the shoulder, as well as not being afraid to discipline him when necessary to keep him in line.

I think his career could have been prolonged and he could have stayed off the sauce, and would be in a far better place mentally and physically than he is now.

It's a pity he was swayed by Spurs purchasing his parents a house.
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I don't know, I think Ferguson more had history of knowing when to let mavericks be mavericks enhancing their performance while not disturbing the team and when to just get rid. Gazzas drinking, partying and overall childishness probably would have resulted in the latter. See McGrath among others

He really should have just followed Bobby Robson around considering he seemed to be the only one to really understand him and get him to behave

Fun thread by the way
 
FeedTheGoat said:
I don't know, I think Ferguson more had history of knowing when to let mavericks be mavericks enhancing their performance while not disturbing the team and when to just get rid. Gazzas drinking, partying and overall childishness probably would have resulted in the latter. See McGrath among others

He really should have just followed Bobby Robson around considering he seemed to be the only one to really understand him and get him to behave

Fun thread by the way
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Fergie has gone on record saying not signing Gazza was one of his biggest regrets. I'd like to think he thought that he could help him overcome his demons somehow.
 
Whether it's 2002, 2004, 2007, or 2009, we really should've won at least just one of those CLs.

In the 2010s, I don't think we were better than 2010 Inter, 2011 Barca, or 2013 Bayern in those respective seasons, but we should've won 2 in the 2000s IMO.
 
There is no Munich and the Babes see out their careers organically

The team would have dominated English football for the next decade and we would have won more European Cups.

Duncan Edwards would have captained the World Cup winning team and be widely regarded as the greatest English player ever alongside Sir Bobby.
 
Rojofiam said:
Whether it's 2002, 2004, 2007, or 2009, we really should've won at least just one of those CLs.

In the 2010s, I don't think we were better than 2010 Inter, 2011 Barca, or 2013 Bayern in those respective seasons, but we should've won 2 in the 2000s IMO.
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We'd have beaten Chelsea in 2009 if UEFALona hadn't paid off the referee to get to the final in 2009.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
We'd have beaten Chelsea in 2009 if UEFALona hadn't paid off the referee to get to the final in 2009.
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Yeah, I included 2009 only because that game at the Stamford Bridge between Chelsea and Barca was a "disgace", as Drogba put it. However, in the final itself United didn't deserve to win, obviously.

There are no guarantees obviously, but we probably would've beaten Chelsea in the final.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
I think with the Gascoigne one, he would have ended up far better off regarding his mental health if he had joined us.

It's clear he needed an excellent man manager who understood psychology like Fergie to mentor him. Fergie could have provided that guidance he needed in terms of that fatherly arm around the shoulder, as well as not being afraid to discipline him when necessary to keep him in line.

I think his career could have been prolonged and he could have stayed off the sauce, and would be in a far better place mentally and physically than he is now.

It's a pity he was swayed by Spurs purchasing his parents a house.
Click to expand...
There is an optimistic timeline where he goes to United in 1988, withstands serious injury and keeps a relative lid on everything else, wins the Cup Winners Cup with Robbo in 1991, forging a partnership with Ince* and then Keane as the decade wore on, providing that extra gear to get United past Dortmund and winning the CL in 96/97, before handing over the baton to Scholes at the end of the decade.

The thing is for most of his 20s Gascoigne had Venables and Smith in charge of him who were exceptional man managers as their players have testified over the years. Yet he still succumbed to his demons. He had unresolved trauma from his childhood that today would have been supported differently. At the time given the lack of awareness around mental health conditions, he had to live that out in the full glare of the media and was always up against it with the drink-fuelled lads culture of the 90s.

*Perhaps wouldn't have got signed had United already secured Gascoigne the year before.
 
Roy Keane joining Blackburn would have had unfathomable consequences for us I feel. From 1995 onwards he was arguably our most important player and always in our top 3 performers, every season for around 10 years.
The 97/98 season where he snapped his ACL shown how our seasons might have been without him.
Sure, we would have signed someone else but our scouting network at the time was almost limited to the UK, so we probably wouldn't have moved for Vieira for example when Arsenal did. It would have been someone like Tim Sherwood, or an unknown Norwegian.
We certainly wouldn't have won as many trophies!
 
Shearer joining United would have surely given us a couple more UCL's. I don't think Arsenal would win the league either
 
United go for Poch.

Would we at least be a top 4 team now?

If only there was a classical music composer who could shed some light on this.
 
Lay said:
Shearer joining United would have surely given us a couple more UCL's. I don't think Arsenal would win the league either
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Yes - when you look back at the amount of chances Cole missed in the 97 semi against Dortmund, its hard to imagine Shearer not putting about 4 of them away which would have been more than enough to get to the final that year.

A Shearer and Cantona partnership would have been absolute perfection.
 
Cloud7 said:
One of the biggest “what if” for me is what if Barcelona don’t get past Chelsea in that CL semifinal. There were many dubious calls in that match, but if we face Chelsea rather than Barcelona I’m sure we win against Chelsea.

At that point we become the first team to retain the CL, and we’ve won our fourth CL. Who knows how things might have gone after that. Maybe Ronaldo doesn’t leave? Maybe some players like Benzema or Varane end up coming to us instead of Madrid. Maybe we follow that up with another win the year after ?
Click to expand...

The feeling in the Chelsea fanbase has always been that we'd have beaten United in that final and avenged the defeat in 2008. It would definitely have been a more even final than what we ended up seeing. Nobody wanted to see that final though, apart from Chelsea and United fans. Nobody wanted to see back to back Chelsea v United CL finals.
 
If the Glazers had never taken over United and if Mourinho had succeeded Ferguson instead of Moyes, we’d have been so much better off.
 
Darren Fletcher's career at Man Utd isn't derailed

During a routine club meal its discovered that Fletcher's medical condition is actually the result of a Brazilian team mate (who's name can't be revealed for legal reasons) eating all of his dinners, rather than an internal biological illness. The club rectifies this with the use of a restraining dinner chair.

As a result, Fletcher is able to maintain a healthy weight and physique. Completely coincidentally, Anderson also stays in shape rather than becoming increasingly overweight. Both players go from strength to strength. By 2012, both have surpassed Messi and Ronaldo as the greatest player of all time (according to some people in a thread on redcafe). As a result Man Utd are able to achieve great success. Much lie the success they did achieve anyway, except that Paul Scholes didn't have to come out of retirement to replace himself. In the resulting years after Ferguson leaves, both players, like every other Man Utd player, mysteriously turn to complete rubbish. Both are also forced to sit on the bench because the club signed Fellaini. Jose Mourinho sells Anderson for not being tall enough. FLetcher is also benched by Jose for McTominay due to McTominay having a slightly more boring haircut, meaning he is third choice and resultantly leaves to start a succesful spell at Inter Milan probably.
 
I've been thinking that United could have ended up with Jose Mourinho in 2004.

If Fergie retired around 2002 as he had been planning, we'd have gotten Sven Goran Eriksson



Who knows how it would have gone but there's a chance we could have been looking for a new manager in 2004 and if Mourinho had been on the same trajectory I think we'd have looked at him seriously. Back then he didn't have much baggage either so I doubt Bobby Charlton would have objected to it and if it's between us and Chelsea I think Mourinho would have gone with us.
 
noodlehair said:
Darren Fletcher's career at Man Utd isn't derailed

During a routine club meal its discovered that Fletcher's medical condition is actually the result of a Brazilian team mate (who's name can't be revealed for legal reasons) eating all of his dinners, rather than an internal biological illness. The club rectifies this with the use of a restraining dinner chair.

As a result, Fletcher is able to maintain a healthy weight and physique. Completely coincidentally, Anderson also stays in shape rather than becoming increasingly overweight. Both players go from strength to strength. By 2012, both have surpassed Messi and Ronaldo as the greatest player of all time (according to some people in a thread on redcafe). As a result Man Utd are able to achieve great success. Much lie the success they did achieve anyway, except that Paul Scholes didn't have to come out of retirement to replace himself. In the resulting years after Ferguson leaves, both players, like every other Man Utd player, mysteriously turn to complete rubbish. Both are also forced to sit on the bench because the club signed Fellaini. Jose Mourinho sells Anderson for not being tall enough. FLetcher is also benched by Jose for McTominay due to McTominay having a slightly more boring haircut, meaning he is third choice and resultantly leaves to start a succesful spell at Inter Milan probably.
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Too far. You went from believable to Stephen King right here!
 
WeePat said:
Nobody wanted to see that final though, apart from Chelsea and United fans. Nobody wanted to see back to back Chelsea v United CL finals.
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Which is why it didn't happen. UEFA wanted their favourite club in the final.
 
giorno said:
That's interesting. Does he own up to the eyesight problem immediately?
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You've lost me

WeePat said:
The feeling in the Chelsea fanbase has always been that we'd have beaten United in that final and avenged the defeat in 2008. It would definitely have been a more even final than what we ended up seeing. Nobody wanted to see that final though, apart from Chelsea and United fans. Nobody wanted to see back to back Chelsea v United CL finals.
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I'm surprised at that. We dispensed with you just a few months prior with relative ease in what would've been our last meeting before that hypothetical final.

Thing is, though, I think it may have been one of those things where everything points to a United victory (us being the better team, our recent form against you and already beating you in the final a year prior, becoming the first team to retain this version of the cup) but fate throws a twist in there, so I'm not as confident as some United fans are that we would have won either. I just never knew Chelsea fans were confident of a victory.
 
Yagami said:
You've lost me
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VdS had an obvious eyesight problem while at juventus but refused to acknowledge it. That's why he ended up at Fulham - he was a disaster at Juventus(Marcelo Salas post game interview in which he outright said their gameplan was to just shoot on target as much as possible from whatever distance and angle because "we knew their gk can't see" is unforgettable)
 
giorno said:
VdS had an obvious eyesight problem while at juventus but refused to acknowledge it. That's why he ended up at Fulham - he was a disaster at Juventus(Marcelo Salas post game interview in which he outright said their gameplan was to just shoot on target as much as possible from whatever distance and angle because "we knew their gk can't see" is unforgettable)
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Oh, I didn't know that! It kinda explains how a goalkeeper of his quality ended up at Fulham.

Though I dare say that van der Sar with eyesight problems would've still been better than the alternatives we had post Schmeichel! A bit like Scholes in the mid 2000s. I'm exaggerating as I do have some fond memories of said goalkeepers despite not being up to the standard, but I just love van der Sar, and imagining him joining with Stam still here is just *insert old drool smiley here*
 
Yagami said:
Oh, I didn't know that! It kinda explains how a goalkeeper of his quality ended up at Fulham.

Though I dare say that van der Sar with eyesight problems would've still been better than the alternatives we had post Schmeichel! A bit like Scholes in the mid 2000s. I'm exaggerating as I do have some fond memories of said goalkeepers despite not being up to the standard, but I just love van der Sar, and imagining him joining with Stam still here is just *insert old drool smiley here*
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VdS at juventus = Karius
 
Fortitude said:
Take any from the below as singular entities and extrapolate its timeline in the way you perceive it. Do not conflate one scenario with another; all scenarios start from exactly what was at the time


Feel free to create some scenarios I’ve missed or others for different clubs or nations. Let’s see what rabbit holes can be explored.



  • There is no Munich and the Babes see out their careers organically
  • Terry Venables joins Manchester United; Sir Alex Ferguson joins Arsenal
  • Paul Gascoigne joins Manchester United instead of Tottenham Hotspur in 1988
  • Eric Cantona joins Liverpool instead of Manchester United
  • Alan Shearer joins Manchester United instead of Blackburn Rovers
  • Roy Keane joins Blackburn Rovers instead of Manchester United
  • Jaap Stam doesn’t leave Manchester United
  • Gabriel Batistuta joins Manchester United in 2000 instead of Roma
  • Ronaldinho joins Manchester United instead of PSG
  • The Scholes goal vs Porto is allowed
  • The Glazers are prevented from purchasing Manchester United
  • Roy Keane doesn’t leave Manchester United by “mutual consent”
  • Darren Fletcher’s career at Manchester United is not derailed
  • Dimitar Berbatov does not join Manchester United
  • Xavi and Cristiano Ronaldo swap deal goes through
  • Wesley Sneijder joins Manchester United instead of Inter Milan
  • Nani’s not given the yellow card in the Real Madrid game
  • Jose Mourinho is handed the United job as replacement to SAF
  • Eden Hazard joins Manchester United instead of Chelsea
  • Toni Kroos joins Manchester United instead of Real Madrid
  • Arturo Vidal joins Manchester United instead of Juventus
  • Manuel Neuer signs for the club in 2016
  • Ilkay Gundogan joins United instead of Manchester City
  • Ole gets Haaland
Click to expand...
Can we get some of these from the fan perspective of another club?

I was going to do both a Real and Barca one, but that'd be generic with no feeling behind either. Obvious things like Di Stefano joining Barca of Figo staying etc.

One for Arsenal would be interesting or Everton given they both missed out on dynasties that others went on to have.

Or what about Bayern, is there a timeline that prevents them going on to become overlords of the league?
 
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Fortitude said:
Can we get some of these from the fan perspective of another club?

I was going to do both a Real and Barca one, but that'd be generic with no feeling behind either. Obvious things like Di Stefano joining Barca of Figo staying etc.

One for Arsenal would be interesting or Everton given they both missed out on dynasties that others went on to have.
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We have fans from all sorts of clubs here but I'm not sure if we have any Middlesbrough fans. I feel like we do but, anyway, there's an interesting one for Middlesbrough in thinking what would've happened had they not had got that points deduction in 1997.

They most likely stay up, and it would've been interesting to see if they progressed after reaching two domestic finals that season. Juninho would've stayed. Maybe Ravanelli, too. Emerson would've been off regardless. So it would've been interesting to see who they would've brought in as their transfer strategy during that era was incredibly ambitious.
 
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