Surveillance Draft - R1- OneNil vs Gio

Who would win?


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Physiocrat

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OneNil

Tactics: Lighting Quick Direct Attacking and Counter Attacks.

This team is built in spirit of this generation. Traits like pace, athleticism, technique and professionalism take precedence. Like many successful teams of this era we are built from the back, with a strong versatile midfield and attacking flair and pace up front.

We look to control space and time on the ball of the opponent and then launch lethally quick counters. However we will look to dominate control of space this match and limit the opportunities of the opponent with team defense.

Henry operates in his favored inside-left channel with freedom to move outside or more centrally at will. Litmanen has the proper platform to both set up Henry and Caniggia and attack centrally himself. Caniggia and Maicon impose their will on that flank. Blistering pace combined with trickery and athleticism this side will provide an advantage for my team.

The defense combines experience and tactical nous with pace and power. Maicon is set to dominate his flank. Ramos has strict instructions to support and cover Maicon with il Capitano Maldini giving Sergio a talk about maintaining his discipline for this match. While Maldini will certainly come up against Messi often, we are not doing man marking. Instead Messi’s preferred area of the pitch will be contained by Maldini, Ferdinand and Mascherano in their primes. This trio is perfectly suited to restrict Messi’s influence on this game.

Supporting both the defense and offense are Mendieta and Marchisio. These two are naturally suited to their tasks for this match as CM shuttlers. Mendieta was excellent at supporting the flank and attacking at times while still maintaining presence in the center of the pitch. Marchisio is ideal for supporting Maldini and Mascherano against Messi and Cafu.

Henry and Caniggia also serve important defensive functions by always maintaining two open channels for counter attacking on left and right. This is going to keep Cafu honest and restrict his offensive influence.

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Gio

Building a team around Lionel Messi without the benefit of anyone who has played with him required a couple of key principles. The first was a three-man attack as part of the 4-3-3 which he has shone in during his entire club career. The second was ensuring that his fellow attackers had the right attributes: that they were mobile, fluid, technically excellent and pacey. Players who were natural at stretching the play and could each excel across the front line. Messi operates as a false 9 here with Claudio Lopez and Brian Laudrup offering all sorts of threats inside and outside their full-backs, all with the ability to interchange as they see fit.

The midfield is formed around a similar premise. Getting the best out of Steven Gerrard needs a natural holder to provide him with the freedom to bomb forward and noboby better of that ilk than Claude Makelele. No wonder Mourinho tried to sign him three times. And if we look at how well Gerrard dovetailed with Alonso, then Prosinecki brings a similar and probably better passing range and vision as Alonso to the table. Prosinecki needs legs and energy around him with willing runners in wide areas in attack - and he has all of those attributes here to play to his considerable strengths.

The defence has strength and leadership through its core with two World Cup winning captains. A complementary pair of Brazilian full-backs, with Cafu more inclined to dominate his flank while Filipe Luis excels in a more disciplined Simeone set-up. Cannavaro and Naybet are a high-quality centre-half partnership who are both very well rounded with little-to-no apparent weaknesses. Behind them Oscar Cordoba is one of the greatest South American goalkeepers of all time despite flying somewhat under the radar repuationally in Europe yet whose peak with Boca and Colombia saw him win all sorts of awards.

Why we will win:

Onenil has pulled together an excellent squad, one of the standouts in the draft, so this will be a tough match-up. Nevertheless:

  • Messi has the dribbling ability to cause Ramos all sorts of problems. Previous experience has shown that Messi tends to win that head-to-head, quite devastatingly at times.
  • Messi loves the through-ball in behind the right-back and Claudio Lopez is custom-designed to burst onto those passes with his pace, left-footedness and all-round directness. I think he has a pace edge on Maicon there which, given how reliable that Messi is at delivering that ball, should give him a couple of chances during the game.
  • I can probably pick on one hand the number of attackers who have gotten the better of Paolo Maldini over the years, but Brian Laudrup is one of those. His ability to twist and turn, go inside and out, and overall athleticism will keep Maldini at a minimum, honest and, as previous experience shows, potentially give him some real problems.
 
Absolute carnage. Love the attention to detail from @Gio in placing the selector on Messi before the screenshot :cool:
 
Oddly, I can see Makelele having more trouble with Litmanen than Mascherano with Messi. Not the type of #10 you would usually deploy him against.

Key game-deciding battles:
  • Piojo vs. Maicon/Ramos will likely create some havoc
  • Mendieta vs. Proscinecki where I can see Gaizka having the upper hand and determining the outcome of the "midfield battle".
 
Quick scan of the two set-ups would suggest my main match-winners are:
  • Messi, for the reasons detailed in the OP
  • Cafu - no idea how he's going to be stopped here.
  • Other head-to-heads, I quite fancy Gerrard head-to-head against Marchisio as well as the previously mentioned Lopez on Maicon.
 
There's ample pace in that defense though. All 4 are rapid, so to say.
It's not a pace issue, more that with Ramos covering Maicon I think Piojo is the sort of player that would drag him and expose his flaws... and Messi is bound to exploit the space sooner or later.
 
Quick scan of the two set-ups would suggest my main match-winners are:
  • Messi, for the reasons detailed in the OP
  • Cafu - no idea how he's going to be stopped here.
  • Other head-to-heads, I quite fancy Gerrard head-to-head against Marchisio as well as the previously mentioned Lopez on Maicon.

Here's an idea: Maldini
 
It's not a pace issue, more that with Ramos covering Maicon I think Piojo is the sort of player that would drag him and expose his flaws... and Messi is bound to exploit the space sooner or later.
This is why I paired them - almost all of these threaded balls are in behind the right-back into the inside-left channel. He's probably mastered that better than anyone else ever. And either he passes it there or dribbles it into that space.

 
Absolute carnage. Love the attention to detail from @Gio in placing the selector on Messi before the screenshot :cool:
Well noticed. Although kudos to Onenil for using the classic large-player footballuser style format to mask the natural narrowness of the diamond.
 
It's not a pace issue, more that with Ramos covering Maicon I think Piojo is the sort of player that would drag him and expose his flaws... and Messi is bound to exploit the space sooner or later.
I'm not sure I get the Messi taking on Ramos bit here. Even as a false 9 he's gonna occupy the left channel and it will be more upon Ferdinand and Mascherano to deal with him between them. Sure Messi will go on those crazy runs and that will need help from Ramos but it wouldn't be a constant feature. Rio and Masch though are a really good duo to have against him, not to mention a certain Italian right besides them.

I'd imagine Brian Laudrup will be occupying Paolo Maldini one way or another.
It gets confusing when discussions start going towards 'x will be take care of y' etc. In this game Messi is going to have the ball most of the time, not Laudrup, so how much would he really engage Maldini? Imagine Pedro and Villa when Messi played as false 9 and how many times did they run with it against their markers. The performance you talk about, I don't think Laudrup was playing as a wide forward who is supposed to provide inside runs for a ball dominant false 9 - and I'm not quite sure how much that role fits the Dane here.
 
I'd imagine Brian Laudrup will be occupying Paolo Maldini one way or another.

That's why fullbacks often get support from their CBs. Ferdinand in this case. You will naturally, and quite rightly, gravitate to the other flank. In fact, I expect Cafú to be more of an issue when problems for Ramos shift Maldini-Ferdinand centrally.

FWIW, I gather from the op Messi was expected to start on the right (not sure why the Messi-Maldini pairing came up otherwise).
 
I'm not sure I get the Messi taking on Ramos bit here. Even as a false 9 he's gonna occupy the left channel and it will be more upon Ferdinand and Mascherano to deal with him between them. Sure Messi will go on those crazy runs and that will need help from Ramos but it wouldn't be a constant feature. Rio and Masch though are a really good duo to have against him, not to mention a certain Italian right besides them.
Agreed, that's why I gave more kudos to Masch than Makelele for the job at hand.

The problem isn't Messi vs Ramos but Messi stealing into space vacated by Ramos as López takes him out on a wild goose chase.
 
Imagine Pedro and Villa when Messi played as false 9 and how many times did they run with it against their markers. The performance you talk about, I don't think Laudrup was playing as a wide forward who is supposed to provide inside runs for a ball dominant false 9 - and I'm not quite sure how much that role fits the Dane here.
Think that's more about Pedro and Villa not really being great 1 on 1, compared to the likes of Neymar and Suarez who followed them or even the explosive acceleration of Henry and Eto'o who preceded them. Pedro and Villa were more about finding gaps to finish from and linking play with their slick retention.

As for Laudrup, he's playing on the right of a front three. It's a natural fit for him. But he has the freedom to roam, attack centrally and swap with the other members of the trio. He's played across the front line throughout his career, has played as a false 9 himself, and would typically pop up right across the attack dovetailing off a central presence.
 
compared to the likes of Neymar and Suarez who followed them or even the explosive acceleration of Henry and Eto'o who preceded them.
But neither of those duos played with the false 9 Messi. Messi played on the right in both of those situations and those were pretty contrasting incarnations themselves. Messi's timeline is basically young explosive RW --> goal machine false 9 --> playmaking RW. This game only applies to the middle one, where he had the players I mentioned.

Moreover Messi will be taking the ball forward most of the time and he needs someone making direct darting runs behind the defense, which makes Lopez a great fit whereas someone like Laudrup who enjoyed the ball at his feet himself is probably not going to get much of a chance to showcase that. There was a reason Pedro while not being great individually worked so well and scored important goals like in the CL final - he was an ideal fit for that role.
 
But neither of those duos played with the false 9 Messi. Messi played on the right in both of those situations and those were pretty contrasting incarnations themselves. Messi's timeline is basically young explosive RW --> goal machine false 9 --> playmaking RW. This game only applies to the middle one, where he had the players I mentioned.

Moreover Messi will be taking the ball forward most of the time and he needs someone making direct darting runs behind the defense, which makes Lopez a great fit whereas someone like Laudrup who enjoyed the ball at his feet himself is probably not going to get much of a chance to showcase that. There was a reason Pedro while not being great individually worked so well and scored important goals like in the CL final - he was an ideal fit for that role.
I agree with these points, can't argue with any of that.

But it's not about replicating the very system Messi played in circa 2011. What I've done with Messi's career is assess the strengths and weaknesses of each system in bringing out the best of him and the team. He plays centrally here to maximise his influence on the game in line with the huge success of the middle part of his career. The weakness of that system for Barcelona was the over-reliance on Messi both for creating attacking space and for goals. And that was more of a personnel issue because, if Messi was shut down, latterly nobody else was coming forward with either goals or that ability to beat the defender. That was particularly apparent around 2012 and 2013 - the Chelsea, Bayern and PSG games were symptomatic of this very problem. That's why Barcelona then signed Neymar and then Luis Suarez because they wanted greater ability in 1v1 situations, having not long before that dipped their toes in the water in that regard with Alexis Sanchez. At the same time, and this is where we are probably absolutely on the same page, two classic wingers slinging in crosses for Messi isn't really conducive to getting the best out of him either.

My strategy here is to try to blend the best bits of what's worked for Messi. So out goes the immobile target man (Zlatan), direct strikers who occupy similar spaces (Aguero), the lack of alternative goal threat (pure touchline-hugging wingers, midfielders who can't break the lines). And in comes a left forward who excels attacking the space in behind the right-back and is custom-designed to get on the end of Messi's patented through balls. And in comes an all-round attacker on his other side who is exceptional at 1v1 situations, but also links play well and has an eye for goal. I think between the trio I've covered most bases of what's worked for Messi. Meanwhile, coming from deep and breaking the lines is Steven Gerrard attacking either the central or inside-right channel, and again offering significant goal threat. Laudrup has the intelligence to know when to stay wide to allow space for Gerrard to attack or come inside, link up more intimately with Messi and others, and allow room for Cafu to overlap.
 
This is why I paired them - almost all of these threaded balls are in behind the right-back into the inside-left channel. He's probably mastered that better than anyone else ever. And either he passes it there or dribbles it into that space.

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Yep, few better to play on the shoulder of the last man than Lopez, and no one better at threading that through ball than Messi. Goals
 
Onenil's team looks very well balanced. For me I'd be interested to see how Gio intends to keep Mendieta quiet as he seems the main dangerman for me and I don't see how he is going to be stopped in this game.
 
Interesting one. To me is very close and can go either way.

I don't rate Ramos very highly(doh) so with Maicon surging forward I can see Claudio Lopez having a good game here.

On the flip side. Masch, Maldini and Ferdinand watching over the left/central channel is probably one of the best in the draft. I can see having that trio restricting Messi's game - the man who has to be stopped and main goalscoring threat for Gio.

I also favor Henry against Cannavaro as their rivalry goes and past history. At this stage I'm going for onenil but will follow what happens after the injuries.
 
To be fair with all this talk of Laudrup's suitability with Messi my main problem here is Prosinecki. His passing ability is amazing and may very well be superior to Alonso's but I don't see the comparison at all. He was ridiculously selfish and prone to a pointless dribbling just for the sake of it. Also not sure if I'd rate Gerrard as a selfless runner. He was a runner but he was an opposite of selfish, he also demanded the ball as much as possible, don't think that he'll blend in with Prosinecki here effortlessly.

That midfield three is my main issue. With the right player I can see Makelele-Gerrard being a great asset to Messi, but not with Robert.
 
To be fair with all this talk of Laudrup's suitability with Messi my main problem here is Prosinecki. His passing ability is amazing and may very well be superior to Alonso's but I don't see the comparison at all. He was ridiculously selfish and prone to a pointless dribbling just for the sake of it. Also not sure if I'd rate Gerrard as a selfless runner. He was a runner but he was an opposite of selfish, he also demanded the ball as much as possible, don't think that he'll blend in with Prosinecki here effortlessly.

That midfield three is my main issue. With the right player I can see Makelele-Gerrard being a great asset to Messi, but not with Robert.
Again it's not necessarily about recreating what went before. It's a classic midfield trio of the deep-lying destroyer, the box-to-box engine and goal threat, and the fancy ball-player. Latter day Prosinecki matches your description, because he no longer had the legs to do what he wanted, but the Red Star and Yugoslavia version was much more dynamic and dictated play without dwelling on the ball.
That's a good point. Henry ripped him a new one.

Was going to say - not entirely impressed with Cannavaro and Naybet partnership. Too similar.
Well you can point to the 2006 World Cup Final of where Cannavaro has got the better of Henry on the greatest stage of all, in the same way we can refer to Henry's performance in the Euro 2000 final causing Nesta and Cannavaro various problems.

As for the Naybet/Cannavaro partnership, again not quite sure is lacking. I'm happy to field two similar all-rounders: it doesn't have to be a combination of a stopper and a covering defender. Even moreso in the modern game when strikers are passed on zonally rather than picked up man-to-man.

In terms of Naybet's credentials, he's regarded as the greatest African defender of all time. He along with Ayala was the best centre-half in La Liga for a number of seasons either side of the millenium. Long-time Sir Alex Ferguson and Real Madrid target, Naybet preferred to stay loyal to super Depor, clinching La Liga title in 2000 and missing out on an arguably deserved Champions League title in 2004. Impressive leader with fine all-round defensive skills, he was also an expansive ball-player who was an important part of Depor's exciting possession game.
 
Again it's not necessarily about recreating what went before. It's a classic midfield trio of the deep-lying destroyer, the box-to-box engine and goal threat, and the fancy ball-player
It's not about recreating, but I genuinely believe that two of those players need to have a midfield to be build around them, and it's a different kind of midfield. Put someone like Keane or Tigana instead of Gerrard and unleash a younger Prosinecki (still not ideal with Messi, I guess, but much better). Or deep-lying playmaker with a good defensive game and unleash Gerrard (a better fit with Messi here)
 
@harms I get your point about Prosinecki needing to be carefully accommodated, and there have been a few drafts recently where he's been crow-barred in on the left-hand side alongside even more ball-dominant types, which wasn't getting the best out of him. However, I thought he works in this team because:
  1. He has superb passing targets in wide areas to aim for - he can either find them inside the full-back (see the ball against Rangers below :drool:) or can do the early switch of play to Cafu.
  2. He has lots of energy and dig around him in Gerrard and Makelele, allaying any concerns that he won't contribute to the 'battle' that much.
  3. He has lots of previous experience of shining alongside other dominant playmakers like Savicevic and Stojkovic.
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To be fair with all this talk of Laudrup's suitability with Messi my main problem here is Prosinecki. His passing ability is amazing and may very well be superior to Alonso's but I don't see the comparison at all. He was ridiculously selfish and prone to a pointless dribbling just for the sake of it. Also not sure if I'd rate Gerrard as a selfless runner. He was a runner but he was an opposite of selfish, he also demanded the ball as much as possible, don't think that he'll blend in with Prosinecki here effortlessly.

That midfield three is my main issue. With the right player I can see Makelele-Gerrard being a great asset to Messi, but not with Robert.

Just to confirm what gio already said, i watched tons of Red Star games because of Prosinecki and Savicevic and gio is spot on. If he uses the young version of Prosinecki he is a fantastic fit for this team, a great technical b2b that played both ways, ran his socks off every game and didnt dwell on the ball as he did when he got older.
My issue in that midfield in Stevie G, i just cant fit him in a possession based team....

btw both teams are great, i dont usually like diamond formation but you did a very good job @oneniltothearsenal
 
wanted to prepare a bit more for this but this weekend got far too hectic. Only got a chance to save a few gifs.

The main advantage I see is in my counter attacks. If Henry is left with only the CBs marking him he is going to gain tremendous joy. I don't think the defense is suited to stopping peak Henry

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Henry and Caniggia are capable of wreaking havoc on the counter against these Cbs especially with Makelele occupied trying to contain Litmanen's probing. This gets amplified by Gerrard whose playing style does not fit this team. His tendency to try to be hero and Hollywood is going to get punished here as ruthlessly on the counter.

Additionally, Mendieta is also going to find a lot of joy here. He can support and moved into space Caniggia vacates, he has Maicon to work with and the way Litmanen, Henry and Caniggia can open up space, Mendieta can spring forward for a crucial goal.

Also Ramos is going to be deadly on set pieces.
 
What Messi has done to Ramos and could have done in this first half:

 
Mendieta had wonderful skills.

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Best game yet this. Nicely constructed side as usual from Gio but he's come up against another well thought out side.

I'm going to wait for injuries here. The wrong player lost could mean curtains for either side!
 
You won't find me dissing Mendieta that's for sure. What I will say though is that him and Gerrard are playing in similar roles and offer some similar threats going forward.
 
30 Mins injury - Ramos is off
INJURY TIME

Humiliated Ramos is limping to the bench, although no one believes that he actually has a pulled hamstring. He makes room for Hidetoshi Nakata, who keeps a swag level in tact but onenil can't expect a match-winning header in the injury time now.

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