Strength in Depth is our problem!!!

[pete_8]

Look at today Ruud is out we look a lesser side.
God knows what would happen if Giggs or Beckham were out or god forbid both at the same time long term .
In my opininion we need three more players to make the squad complete.
A striker and two wide players one left and one right.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by pete_8:
<strong>Look at today Ruud is out we look a lesser side.
God knows what would happen if Giggs or Beckham were out or god forbid both at the same time long term .
In my opininion we need three more players to make the squad complete.
A striker and two wide players one left and one right.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ruud being out isn't a major problem in my opinion. He has been guilty of some appalling misses so far this season so there's no guarantee that results would be different. We need another striker, another midfielder to replace Veron in the EPL, and some quality alternatives at right and left back.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Ruud being out isn't a major problem in my opinion. </strong><hr></blockquote>

i disagree... he makes a BIG difference to our team.. second half versus Leverkusen is a prime example.

his link up play and movement has been awesome this year..he's developed into a complete striker.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

i disagree... he makes a BIG difference to our team.. second half versus Leverkusen is a prime example.

his link up play and movement has been awesome this year..he's developed into a complete striker.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I didn't mean it the way it sounded - or at least, I didn't mean that I don't think Ruud is important. I meant that without Ruud we should still be able to perform. His form has improved since the beginning of the season, but we shouldn't be a one-man team.

He was nigh-on perfect against Leverkeusen, but generally, I don't think his link=up play is as good when he's the lone striker.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


I didn't mean it the way it sounded - or at least, I didn't mean that I don't think Ruud is important. I meant that without Ruud we should still be able to perform. His form has improved since the beginning of the season, but we shouldn't be a one-man team.</strong><hr></blockquote>


ok.

but there's no doubting how important he is!

he's as important as keane IMO.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


ok.

but there's no doubting how important he is!

he's as important as keane IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't.

I think our midfield is the most important part of the team - if they're on song they can create goals for just about anyone.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I don't.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

i do

his link up play and movement is sorely missed, when he's not playing.. he holds the ball up very well..alot like Hughesy.. and helps us spread the play..without him, the game doesn't stretch as much.. and usually its harder for midfielders to link up...without him.

like i said, that game against Leverkusen proved his importance..we don't look the same team without him... or keane for that matter.

 

[Gazza]

no point discussing this now, we just have to stick it for with the squad we've got for at least 3 months.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

i do

his link up play and movement is sorely missed, when he's not playing.. he holds the ball up very well..alot like Hughesy.. and helps us spread the play..without him, the game doesn't stretch as much.. and usually its harder for midfielders to link up...without him.

like i said, that game against Leverkusen proved his importance..we don't look the same team without him... or keane for that matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In recent games - notably Charlton and Olympiakos - it's been Ole who reminds me more of Hughes as he has started playing quite a lot with his back to goal, whereas Ruud has an eye on the goal most of the time.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>no point discussing this now, we just have to stick it for with the squad we've got for at least 3 months.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True..Lets hope we have good fortune on the injury front..January will soon be here
I say we buy Duff,Finnan and Gudjohnsen

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
Ruud has an eye on the goal most of the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

sigh..

he's been the complete striker this season, and has been better than last year, even tho' he's not scored a trillion goals.

yes, ole's been good(he scored a well taken goal today), but Ruuds the man... and his got more to his game than just an eye for a goal this season.....

 

[Gazza]

Finnan is a name I havent heard in a while. We should go for him or Carr if we have the spare dough around. Carr may have injury problems but it seems everyone at WHL does, so he can take advantage of our world class physios at OT.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

sigh..

he's been the complete striker this season, and has been better than last year, even tho' he's not scored a trillion goals.

yes, ole's been good(he scored a well taken goal today), but Ruuds the man... and his got more to his game than just an eye for a goal this season.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why do you react as though me saying Ruud has an eye on the goal was a criticism. It wasn't at all - and I'm not knocking Ruud.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Why do you react as though me saying Ruud has an eye on the goal was a criticism. It wasn't at all - and I'm not knocking Ruud.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that Ruud holds the play up very well ..The classic example of this was at Leverkusen . When he went off the ball just kept on coming back hence the pressure.
I also think he is as important as Keane to the team at the moment

 

[Livvie]

An on-form Ruud is as important as anyone in the team - unless it's an on-form Roy Keane.

I don't think Ruud has been quite as complete as he was last season - last season he rarely missed. This season he has missed goals that he put away with ease last year.

But as they say, form is temporary, class is permanent.

I would never leave a fit RVN out of the side.

 

[Gazza]

you can never leave ruud out I agree... even at 90% fitness like when he came on at the valley and changed the game.

 

[christiepark_boy]

The key to this thread is not how much we need Ruud - clearly he's essential to hit the highest peaks. Ole's a star too...his goal today was top quality and ruthless. But there's no depth to the squad up front.

Its a wierd situation, but we seem to have more options in defence than in attack. Gazza can play CB or full-back, ditto O'shea. Phil can cover left or right if anyone is injured. Wes (when fit) can also play right-back or CB.

We need two more players up front or in the hole to give us the squad required to lift the trophies we want. Can't believe we allowed Gudjohnson to get away from the North. Buy him now before Chelsea go on a run and get delusions of grandeur.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I don't think Ruud has been quite as complete as he was last season - last season he rarely missed. This season he has missed goals that he put away with ease last year.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


he's missed chances, yes..

but interms of play he's been 'complete'. last year his movement was very static at times. but this year its been as good as cole's ever was(yes andy cole)..

'complete' doesn't mean goals to chances ratio.. it means an all round game...which RVN certainly has...especially this season.. i wouldn't swap him for any striker in the world, such are his qualities.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by christiepark_boy:
<strong>Ole's a star too...his goal today was top quality and ruthless. But there's no depth to the squad up front.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

no doubt.

i thought he played well today, and his goal was top drawer.

 

[ManUinOz]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>
. i wouldn't swap him for any striker in the world, such are his qualities.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would take Henry any day. That's not a criticism of Ruud, just ultimate praise for Henry.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

no doubt.

i thought he played well today, and his goal was top drawer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brilliant goal clinical,ruthless and a joy to watch
And Ole is an important part of our squad we just need more strenghth in depth ...Four top strikers is essential in this day and age at present we have two .

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by ManUinOz:
<strong>

I would take Henry any day. That's not a criticism of Ruud, just ultimate praise for Henry.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Henry is a great player .But I wouldn't swap ..Love to see them together at O/T

 

[uranushk1]

I'm surprised to see this thread begins to turn into a Ruud vs Henry thread

IMO we definitely need another striker/forward. Scholes should return to midfield. While Giggs can play as forward, it still leave us with only three recognized forward. (I don't think Forlan is "recognized forward" for us yet.)

 

[Jason F]

I think our squad is extreamly weak at the moment, we need another 2 strikers, 1 at least! Some cover on the wings, maybe Forlan can take that role if we get 2 strikers.

A LB is must as well, and when Blanc goes a another CB.

Wish list- Stk- Totti
Stk- Cisse
CB- Mexes
LB- Escude

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Jason F:
<strong>I think our squad is extreamly weak at the moment, we need another 2 strikers, 1 at least! Some cover on the wings, maybe Forlan can take that role if we get 2 strikers.

A LB is must as well, and when Blanc goes a another CB.

Wish list- Stk- Totti
Stk- Cisse
CB- Mexes
LB- Escude</strong><hr></blockquote>


In reality your list have no chance to come true because we just don't have unlimited money. I only see a striker/forward is "a must", while all others are only a plus rather than necessary.

 

[pete_8]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>


In reality your list have no chance to come true because we just don't have unlimited money. I only see a striker/forward is "a must", while all others are only a plus rather than necessary.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>


i wouldn't swap him for any striker in the world, such are his qualities.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Neither would I. Not Henry, not anyone. Ruud is a United player thru and thru. Henry isn't.

 

[Red15]

The problem is even if we get another striker, I think for most of the matches, Fergie's only going to play one striker up front. Yesterday, even if Ruud was fit, that probably would have meant Ole would have been on the bench. We all know we need another striker, but how are we going to attract another top striker when he's probably going to be spending most of the time on the bench? Even Ole only gets a match these days when Ruud isn't fit or when we're not winning....and then Fergie puts him on to try to win the match.

In the premiership, I'd really like to see us play with 2 strikers. When you look at the last few matches, (against Charlton and Everton) we looked a much better side when first Ruud came on against Charlton and then when Ole came on against Everton.

We do lack depth in the squad but I also don't think we're using the resources that we do have. For the premiership, once Rio, Nicky and Ruud are fit again...hopefully in the next week or so, I'd really like to see a back four of Gary, Rio, JOS, Silvestre; a midfield of Becks, Nicky, Scholesy, and Giggsy with Ruud and Ole up front. For the premiership, I really believe that's our strongest team.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>The problem is even if we get another striker, I think for most of the matches, Fergie's only going to play one striker up front. Yesterday, even if Ruud was fit, that probably would have meant Ole would have been on the bench. </strong><hr></blockquote>

It's because Fergie doesn't like to play two same type of striker together up front. He always perfered a supporting forward (Cantona, Sheringham, Yorke,..) played besides an all-out striker. That's why he wanted to get Di Canio last year. If we really signed a new player in Janurary, I think it will very probably be a supporting forward rather than a striker.

 

[Red15]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

It's because Fergie doesn't like to play two same type of striker together up front. He always perfered a supporting forward (Cantona, Sheringham, Yorke,..) played besides an all-out striker. That's why he wanted to get Di Canio last year. If we really signed a new player in Janurary, I think it will very probably be a supporting forward rather than a striker.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I still think it's because he's got a surplus of midfielders. Realistically, when Keane's fit, Seba/Scholesy/Nicky are all competing for one spot unless Scholesy plays behind Ruud. And I think it's easier for Fergie to bench Ole than it is for him to bench Seba/Nicky which is why we're playing 4-5-1 so much in the premiership this year.

The obvious player who loses out is Ole. But I don't think this system does Ruud any favours either. Ruud/Ole did so well for us last year. I'd just like to see them get a decent run together and be given a chance to reproduce what they did last year.

 

[Amir]

It doesn't do Manchester United any favours. It's a good system for Europe, but simply not for the league.

 

[Amir]

Part of the squad thing is, we don't seem to enlarge it from inside. Keane's out, Butt's out - and We use another one of the top 16-18 regularly, Phil Neville, in midfield. What about Michael Stewart? Either this is Fergie saying he doesn't think he's good enough, or he's not willing to give youth the go now.

Or Stewart is injured and I'm talking nonsence.

 

[Red15]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>It doesn't do Manchester United any favours. It's a good system for Europe, but simply not for the league.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That saying "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" comes to mind. Yes, something needed to be done for Europe and 4-5-1 has worked really well for us there. You can't argue with the results.

But as far as the league goes, we were winning the league at a canter... Why tinker with something that wasn't broken. Or, if you do tinker with it to try to improve it and it doesn't work, then go back to what's been successful for you in the past.

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by Red15:
[QB
But as far as the league goes, we were winning the league at a canter... Why tinker with something that wasn't broken. Or, if you do tinker with it to try to improve it and it doesn't work, then go back to what's been successful for you in the past.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

The annoying thing is, going back to 4-4-2 all the time brought us back to the running in the league last season... And then we start this season with the same bloody 4-5-1, like nothing has been learned.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

The annoying thing is, going back to 4-4-2 all the time brought us back to the running in the league last season... And then we start this season with the same bloody 4-5-1, like nothing has been learned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

See my thread "The important thing is not the formation..... ", I still don't think the formation is such a big problem. The important thing is that you need to get the right personnel for a match. For one thing, using Scholes as forward has failed 98% of the time. For another thing, playing Veron in a high tempo league match in such a small field is bound to failure from the beginning. We seems don't put out our strongest and most suitable team for most of our leauge matches this season, that's why we always looked like we were struggling even when the opponent was only ordinary.

 

[Red15]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

See my thread "The important thing is not the formation..... ", I still don't think the formation is such a big problem. The important thing is that you need to get the right personnel for a match. For one thing, using Scholes as forward has failed 98% of the time. For another thing, playing Veron in a high tempo league match in such a small field is bound to failure from the beginning. We seems don't put out our strongest and most suitable team for most of our leauge matches this season, that's why we always looked like we were struggling even when the opponent was only ordinary.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think it's a combination of not using the best formation AND not using the best personnel available to us. That's what's so frustrating to me...we have the capacity and the players to do much better in the league. We're just not using our resources right.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>
We're just not using our resources right.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, that's true. Look at our squad and look at how much have we spent in these two years, we should be able to play much better than we did in this season so far.

 

[becks_rules]

we should have someone partner up with ruud that ruud knows he can play with! like maybe someone dutch like makaay. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Red15:
<strong>


The obvious player who loses out is Ole. But I don't think this system does Ruud any favours either. Ruud/Ole did so well for us last year. I'd just like to see them get a decent run together and be given a chance to reproduce what they did last year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Does it really matter if Ole and Ruud are "too similar"??

They scored more goals between them than any other pairing in Europe. They scored more in their first season together than Cole and Yorke did in theirs.

And anyway, the more they play together, the greater the understanding they will have - so the opportunity is there for them to score even more than last season.

I obviously look at things too simplisticly.

 

[devilish]

there is 2 problems behind manutd lack of strenght of depth.

1 Certian players are NOT Manutd's level. Yes some of them may give us a game or two but on the long run we know that they cannot give us that security needed

the list is

1 P Neville
2 L Blanc
3 D May
4 L Chadwick
5 Q Fortune
6 D Forlan

estimated price if you have to sell them (17m)

playing world class players out of position is not the answer to our strenght in depth problems

for example

giggs and scholes are NOT STRIKERS
forlan and solyskear are NOT WINGERS
P Neville is not a Left back or an central midfielder
g neville is not a cental defender
Veron is not a winger

they can play well in a couple of occasions but believe me on the long run they will crack