Solving Uniteds issues....

Chumpsbechumps

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It seems like us fans keep going round and round in circles.

Apart from the awfully dissapointing end points for every managers tenure since Ferguson retired, it feels like us fans are left scraping at breadcrumbs of hope , with new manager bounces promising so much and delivering so little.

I have read many different explanations as to what Uniteds issues are and to honest , the issues have always been that there is no successful vision or proactive strategys that one can see. Its all reactionary and predicated on this "must finish top 4" idea (as if thats a good goal), which means managers and the club end up making either short term signings or opportunistic signings. This idea that "well the manager wanted this player or signed off on them" means that its a manager issue is nonsense to be honest. You can quite easily identify players that were signed because we couldnt actually get the managers main target and players who were signed becasue it was the best we could do. This has happened to every United manager. It doesnt seem to happen anywhere near as much at successful clubs and its not because (for example) Pep/Klopp always know who they want and the club gets them. Its sometimes even just waiting for the right player (like City waiting for Haaland or Liverpool waiting for VVD).

United alwyas buy a Mata Di Maria, Schweinsteiner , Zlatan, Matic , Sanchez, Varane, Ronaldo Casemeiro or Mount type player. Players who are available and kind of maybe sort of fit into whatever plans a manager might have, but equally they are players that most managers would say "why not" when asked if they would like to sign them. United are not getting the players United needs, but players who are avaiable, quite often players not really needed, but they would add to the team. Its why we end up with not enough CBs, CMs, Strikers, wingers etc, there is no joined up squad management process.

United empowering managers is a club issue, not a manager issue. If you say to a manager they have to achieve x and give them a budget, you are setting them up to fail if you dont have a club philospohy that is not a long term one (ie if it doesnt work out with this manager, we will at least have a balanced squad for next manager).

I could go on, but the issues at United for a decade have not been managers, its that there is no joined up football strategy and its basically rebuild after rebuild.

I would rather right now that the club is entirely restructured. I am not even thinking of ETH, the manager is the last thing we should be talking about until the club is in a space where it is being run efficiently. This is what seperates united from the top clubs, its not managers, its how our resources are being used. Regardless of who is managing United, I think the single most important thing could be Ratcliffe (if the rumours are true) completely revamping the club. We arent able to just outbid everybody anymore, Woodward pissed that away and clubs who even get a return on sales can compete with us.

Its a shame that not only do we , as fans, have to suffer the awful mismanagment of the club (on so many levels, many I havent even addressed in this post), but we end up at each others throats. But people demanding for ETHs head, whether that happens or not, you cant ignore the fact that uniteds issues appear to be quite unique that make comparing what works (or other managers working at other clubs) a fallacy belief. I feel some people bank on this new manager idea because its the only thing that offers them hope. A manager can come in and "do better with these players" (which coud be said for every "failed" united manager), so why does it only happen for a few months ? Its because a new manager can bring in new things, but ultimately the short term planning and targets (top 4) squeeze the managers/club to make short term squad decisions that very quickly fall apart. This wont change with a new manager.

I would rather we write off the next 2 seasons and work with ETH to try and build a proper squad that will be balanced enough to be able to offer something to any potential replacement if needs be. Every new United manager should only ever need 2-3 new/alternative additions. At the moment it seems like new United managers need an entire first team or half a squad replacement.
 
A- We need owners who care not about money but about the club. You'll never manage to keep the employees motivated if the owners don't give a feck
B- We need money. If a player needs to leave then he must leave, not next year, not in a half a decade time, NOW. Which leads us to C
C- Players and staff will struggle to remain motivated if their work facilities are a mess. OT and the training ground need to be brought to 2023 levels
D- We need specialized people who knows their stuff. That means a CEO with experience in managing a successful club, an experienced DOF who know how to unearth top talent on the cheap, who can make money out of transfers and who can identify what we need and fitness and sports specialists who know their stuff. These injuries must end
E- The transfer strategy needs to be shifted in the hands of those who know what they are doing. That means no 60m bid for a 30 year old DM, no 100m bid for a winger from Ajax, no 80m bid for a mid table defender and certainly no silly money for a left winger when we need a right winger and a no 10 when we've already got 3 players capable of playing that role.
F- Giggs once said that if he organized a clandestine party then the first to show up would be SAF. We need people at youth level who keep close tabs with the kids and makes sure that they stay in line. We've been losing too many youth talent down to poor attitude
G- Once A to F is implemented then high standards can be implemented. If a player only shows up a year before his contract expires then he is out, if someone leaks info to the media he is out, whoever doesn't give his 100 percent in training is out. Whoever is not good enough is out. That can be achieved because there's a structure in place capable of selling players for a reasonable amount of money which in turn allow us to bring new players in for a reasonable amount of money
 
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In this order.

1. New owners (not the Qataris)
2. Hire competent people from top to bottom
3. DOF
4. Find the right manager

We've skipped the first 3 steps and gotten stuck in a hopeless loop on number 4.

Alternatively: just burn the club to the ground.
 
No one on the Caf knows how to fix the club or has the ability to do so.
Why do we need so many threads about the same subject?
 
Unfortunately, I don’t see how we ever get back to the way things were. Our global popularity and prior success has made us too marketable a product. We’ve become a cash cow for our current and future owners, so much so that the on field success is now not at the top of the list for how we operate. Manchester United as a brand will never stop making money and so any owner who takes over will very likely do so with the main objective of making money, rather than winning trophies. There is a reason that the people who previously and currently have been employed in high positions are not football people, but instead bankers or salesmen. Ed Woodward did a brilliant job in securing new sponsors and partnerships, all while our on field success dwindled. Still we continued to make money. Even this year we recorded record profits. We are a money making machine, and as long as we coast along in a top half fashion, we will always be just that. The footballing success side of Manchester United is long gone and won’t be coming back.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
It seems like us fans keep going round and round in circles.

Apart from the awfully dissapointing end points for every managers tenure since Ferguson retired, it feels like us fans are left scraping at breadcrumbs of hope , with new manager bounces promising so much and delivering so little.

I have read many different explanations as to what Uniteds issues are and to honest , the issues have always been that there is no successful vision or proactive strategys that one can see. Its all reactionary and predicated on this "must finish top 4" idea (as if thats a good goal), which means managers and the club end up making either short term signings or opportunistic signings. This idea that "well the manager wanted this player or signed off on them" means that its a manager issue is nonsense to be honest. You can quite easily identify players that were signed because we couldnt actually get the managers main target and players who were signed becasue it was the best we could do. This has happened to every United manager. It doesnt seem to happen anywhere near as much at successful clubs and its not because (for example) Pep/Klopp always know who they want and the club gets them. Its sometimes even just waiting for the right player (like City waiting for Haaland or Liverpool waiting for VVD).

United alwyas buy a Mata Di Maria, Schweinsteiner , Zlatan, Matic , Sanchez, Varane, Ronaldo Casemeiro or Mount type player. Players who are available and kind of maybe sort of fit into whatever plans a manager might have, but equally they are players that most managers would say "why not" when asked if they would like to sign them. United are not getting the players United needs, but players who are avaiable, quite often players not really needed, but they would add to the team. Its why we end up with not enough CBs, CMs, Strikers, wingers etc, there is no joined up squad management process.

United empowering managers is a club issue, not a manager issue. If you say to a manager they have to achieve x and give them a budget, you are setting them up to fail if you dont have a club philospohy that is not a long term one (ie if it doesnt work out with this manager, we will at least have a balanced squad for next manager).

I could go on, but the issues at United for a decade have not been managers, its that there is no joined up football strategy and its basically rebuild after rebuild.

I would rather right now that the club is entirely restructured. I am not even thinking of ETH, the manager is the last thing we should be talking about until the club is in a space where it is being run efficiently. This is what seperates united from the top clubs, its not managers, its how our resources are being used. Regardless of who is managing United, I think the single most important thing could be Ratcliffe (if the rumours are true) completely revamping the club. We arent able to just outbid everybody anymore, Woodward pissed that away and clubs who even get a return on sales can compete with us.

Its a shame that not only do we , as fans, have to suffer the awful mismanagment of the club (on so many levels, many I havent even addressed in this post), but we end up at each others throats. But people demanding for ETHs head, whether that happens or not, you cant ignore the fact that uniteds issues appear to be quite unique that make comparing what works (or other managers working at other clubs) a fallacy belief. I feel some people bank on this new manager idea because its the only thing that offers them hope. A manager can come in and "do better with these players" (which coud be said for every "failed" united manager), so why does it only happen for a few months ? Its because a new manager can bring in new things, but ultimately the short term planning and targets (top 4) squeeze the managers/club to make short term squad decisions that very quickly fall apart. This wont change with a new manager.

I would rather we write off the next 2 seasons and work with ETH to try and build a proper squad that will be balanced enough to be able to offer something to any potential replacement if needs be. Every new United manager should only ever need 2-3 new/alternative additions. At the moment it seems like new United managers need an entire first team or half a squad replacement.
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Yes some good points there. Too much short term thinking. Top 4 is pointless if we can't progress in the CL. Ultimately I guess that's all the Glazers are looking at. CL qualification equals money for them and more sponsorship which is all they are interested in. And, this 'goal' is clearly passed down the line, so long term planning doesn't exist within the club.
 
devilish said:
A- We need owners who care not about money but about the club. You'll never manage to keep the employees motivated if the owners don't give a feck
B- We need money. If a player needs to leave then he must leave, not next year, not in a half a decade time, NOW. Which leads us to C
C- Players and staff will struggle to remain motivated if their work facilities are a mess. OT and the training ground need to be brought to 2023 levels
D- We need specialized people who knows their stuff. That means a CEO with experience in managing a successful club, an experienced DOF who know how to unearth top talent on the cheap, who can make money out of transfers and who can identify what we need and fitness and sports specialists who know their stuff. These injuries must end
E- The transfer strategy needs to be shifted in the hands of those who know what they are doing. That means no 60m bid for a 30 year old DM, no 100m bid for a winger from Ajax, no 80m bid for a mid table defender and certainly no silly money for a left winger when we need a right winger and a no 10 when we've already got 3 players capable of playing that role.
F- Giggs once said that if he organized a clandestine party then the first to show up would be SAF. We need people at youth level who keep close tabs with the kids and makes sure that they stay in line. We've been losing too youth talent down to poor attitude
G- Once A to F is implemented then high standards can be implemented. If a player only shows up a year before his contract expires then he is out, if someone leaks info to the media he is out, whoever doesn't give his 100 percent in training is out. Whoever is not good enough is out. That can be achieved because there's a structure in place capable of selling players for a reasonable amount of money which in turn allow us to bring new players in for a reasonable amount of money
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Spoken as a true manager! Well said sir, couldn't agree more with this.
 
I would like to see this with Ratcliffe.
A DOF or whatever they want to call him, with a definite plan how we want to play. Play Possession/Counter/Genpress? No problem thats the ultimate aim. He will also be in charge of player recruitment and scouting so its all under his remit.

If they sack TH bring in the best young manager who has experience of playing the way we want to play. Give him a 3 year contract and let him have the first 2 seasons with no pressure of having to finish top 5 or win a cup. Just build up a team to start challenging in 3rd season. Let this be known to the media so fans know and dont get on his back.
Give him a remit as well as building the team up, the players he identifies as not being able to play this style to a good level need to be moved on in that 2 seasons as well. Glazers wouldnt do it, but Ratcliffe is looking at the football side and probably would.

DOF instructs scouts to look for 18-28 year old outfield players (18-30 goalies) and with the manager discusses what positions need strengthening and the DOF then identifies players to go for and says to the manager I have identified a,b,c,d which order shall we go for them. Thats all the manager needs to do, not pick players who he has seen or managed before. Obviously the manager might have managed a player who is in the selection before. Dont go for big name big head players that cost a fortune, want massive wages and will have control in the dressing room. Outfield Players 29 and over would be a no-no as they wont improve any more and only decline.

Set a price to buy for a player. If a similar player went for £50 mill then we shouldnt go any higher than £55 mill, unless hes 20 and scouts think hes going to be a superstar, then maybe we go a little higher, but not £80/90 million, for example.

Stop offering insane wages for virtually every player. Identify what he is on at his present club and offer a decent rise, not a massive increase. Antony for example should have been offered £80k or £100k max, as he was on £20k at Ajax. Thats why we have these mediocre players we cant move on. Highest I saw Sancho was reportedly on was £180k at Dortmund. If true Utd should have offered £250k tops, not £375k. No one else was in for him. If a player refuses and tries to hold Utd ransom, say good luck in getting it and move on. Eventually this will filter down that Utd are no longer there for the taking as a cash cow.

Tell the manager he needs to use the youth setup and identify players who can be on the bench and play in games. Identify the best youth player(s) each season who you expect to step up and instruct the manager to give them chances. This is the only way you will know if good enough.

With the youth setup have a seperate DOF deputy and give him remit to get rid of players who dont hit a certain level. He has scouts to identify youth players, who any that appear to play at this certain level, will be contacted to see if they want to sign. Utd should have scouts on every continent where football is played. This way our youth setup should become better and better.
 
- new owners
- new Dof
- new culture of smart, more conservative recruitment and contracts
- a proper footballing suited to the times rather than ‘United DNA’

Everyone had said the same things countless times but it won’t happen until the first one does.
 
- Phase out/Alienate our older fanbase
- New owners

Number 1 is more important than 2. Even new owners will get bogged down by our vocal but out of touch sections of the fanbase.
 
devilish said:
...That means no 60m bid for a 30 year old DM, no 100m bid for a winger from Ajax, no 80m bid for a mid table defender and certainly no silly money for a left winger when we need a right winger and a no 10 when we've already got 3 players capable of playing that role...
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So much money spend and so little gained.
 
What we need, and the fans will have to stomach it, is three seasons of spending no money whatsoever, or no significant money (i.e. we can still sign u21s/academy players), with the intention being to build a warchest for whomever Ratcliffe choose as Sporting Director.

Currently we're throwing good money after bad, lurching from one problem to another with quick fixes, transfers that don't work out and old signings being discarded by new managers.

The squad we have is good enough to achieve top six minimum if we simplify the football, revert to the 4-2-3-1 and play boring old safe transition football. A new manager will be appointed, a safe, boring, steady pair of hands. Someone of the Southgate mould. Their brief will simply be - steady the ship, play simple football, keep the dressing room onside, do the absolute best you can with what we have.

We do that for three seasons. We milk everything we can get out of this current group. We introduce a couple of Academy players each season and discard the Martial's, the Casemiro's, the Varane's etc...it should not be beyond the ability of a club like United, with our resources, to integrate two Academy lads into the first-team fold each season.

What we will then have is a clean slate. We'll have a base of young, hungry Academy lads and a few of the more useful members of the current crop will still be around and in their mid/late 20s. Over the initial three year 'spend freeze' period, there will be a relentless, zealot-like focus on scouting. No expense will be spared. Scouts will be watching Brazilian 3rd Tier matches until their eyes bleed. We will compile the biggest, most up-to-date database of u25s from all over World football.

At the end of the three season period, we should have a budget of £600/£800m to go out and aggressively purchase as many of the best, most talented/suitable players that we can. They will all be fast. They will all be strong. They will all be 6ft+ (unless they're wingers/wide forwards or super quick/strong). They will all be ultra-aggressive. They will all be fighters. These are the non-negotiables.

Four seasons worth of transfer budget should make it achievable, with an extensive period of scouting and planning, to sign 15 players, at least. At this point, we should have a squad of 23 players, with the retained lads/Academy graduates, that are athletic, talented and capable of playing modern football - at the right age profile.

The DoF then makes a decision on the manager. Do we stick with the chap who managed almost on an interim basis or do we go out and get the absolute best available at that point in time, again, on the basis that THEY WILL COACH THE SQUAD THEY ARE GIVEN BY THE DOF. They will not recruit players. They will not have a say in recruitment. They will not suggest players. The merest hint of them mentioning a players name in passing as a target will result in 50 public lashes outside the stadium.
 
There are many issues. Some within Ten Hags control, some possibly there, others not within his control. It is highly debatable how much things can actually change from things within his control. Not saying he's doing a good job, but it's so toxic that a larger change is needed, and that is only possible with Ratcliffe coming in to clear the air. I'd say biggest to smallest issues:
  1. Ownership/structure. Glazers are shit, we know. But right now we have a huge sense of uncertainty around the club. Players, staff, fans... They all feel it and it weighs everyone down. Ratcliffe might only get 25%, but if he is in charge of the sporting direction then he can get us on the right track. Pumping money into the club, whatever. We spend enough. Spending or a lack of it isn't anywhere close to the issue. It's the strategy, the direction of what we want to be as a club. Making sure every manager fits that, every signing fits that, every coach and staff member fits that. This isn't within Ten Hags control.
  2. Tactical strategy. The manager in charge has to find a tactical strategy that works for modern football, and is good enough to progress to be a top club. Yes you make concessions in stages until you have what you need. But under Ten Hag, we have not shown any competency of passing through the lines, through the midfield. You shouldn't need world class players in every role to look like you know how to progress the ball. Martinez and Shaw shouldn't be the bare minimum to pass the ball forwards. 99% of clubs don't have players like them in deep build up. Instead, you see us hold the ball with our CB's before we lump it towards Rashford making a run, inspiring stuff. Figure out a system off the ball, defensively, etc. It's well documented and tifo has done loads of videos on our pressing issues. Figure out a system to actually pass the ball, progress the ball, attack with width, stretch the pitch, dominate teams... And then just keep at that. Sign players accordingly who fit that. Replace those who don't, when it is their turn to be replaced (for all the complains about Bruno/Rashford, there are other players who need replacing before we get to them even if they aren't perfect for this supposed ideal system, because we can use a hybrid system to keep us as a top 4 team until we are ready to replace them to make the leap). Fully on Ten Hag.
  3. Signings. What competent club consistently signs players over the age of 27? It just shouldn't happen as often as we do it. What club spends big money on a player who can only play in the same position as their captain (and who is on a free in a year?). Define your strategy. Write down your best 11 and backup 11. Highlight the players who you want to replace, or what positions have holes in them. And then quite simply, do not sign players who aren't either replacing the players who need to be replaced or who aren't going into a hole that exists. Oh and keep them ideally 25 and below. Over, and over, and over again. Just keep doing that. You should NEVER spend big money on a player when you have a key player in the same role. It's dumb as feck. We've done it multiple times. Oh and when it comes to backup roles... Maybe trust some top young players to be in them? Reguilon has done alright (but injury prone), but why not just keep Alvaro? Just dumb feck planning from our club, as ever. This is within ten hags control, although it should not be (not fully), which ties into point 1.
  4. Motivation. Maybe I was in denial last season or giving the benefit of doubt, but we're Manchester United. We shouldn't be getting battered regularly. We shouldn't be played off the park regularly (tied in with point 2, but motivation should make up for a lot). Newcastle aren't playing some super complex system. They don't have amazing players. They have barely flexed their financial strength yet, their new signings haven't even been very good signings... But they play their hearts out, every single game. This comes from the manager to inspire them, but also the culture of the club, the players. If they feel everyone is pushing together, it comes more easily. Not fully on Ten Hag, but a large part.
  5. Team selection. Ten hag is basically scrambling game to game, lost touch of what works and what doesn't and is just making incomprehensibly stupid selections, regularly now. First of all, play players in their real positions, or in an injury crisis, as close to it as possible. Drop underperforming players from time to time. This is within Ten Hags control, though I'm not sure what impact it'd have without the previous 4 being good.
For right now, the only thing us as fans can really say anything on is point 5. Ten hag needs to of course figure out his tactics and start proving he can coach as group of players in this league, but assuming he (or the next person) can, assuming he can motivate the squad to play together, then I'd like to see us go with this. At least until Ratcliffe comes in, addresses the strategy, and we can start pushing for a (yet another) rebuild.

4231, we don't have the players to cover properly in a 433 but basically just pick between these players for these positions exclusively and keep it with round pegs in round holes.

Gk - Onana - I think he'll be fine. His form has improved last few games and overall I think he is a very good keeper. Altay backup.
RB - Dalot - i think he is a good right back who we'd have to spend big on to actually improve upon. Wan Bissaka good cover too, when fit again.
CB - 2 of Maguire, Varane, Lindelof, Evans. Hate the options. Don't have a single preference over the others. Martinez when he recovers will slot in and be partnered with whoever and is good long term, but the other 4 can all be replaced really.
LB - Reguilon until people come back. If he's out, I'd go Dalot LB and Wan Bissaka RB. If AWB out, I'd go Lindelof RB and Dakota LB. Shaw, Malacia and Alvaro Fernandez are a good group when they come back. Should keep Alvaro here.
DM (X2) - 2 of Casemiro, Amrabat, Mainoo, Eriksen. We have solid options to have a starting pair and backup pair where you'd think they should be able to provide a balance between quality, energy, solidity, progression... Casemiro has struggled, but I think he'd be far better next to a partner to help cover for what he can't do anymore (and once the mood with the rest improves). Would like to see Mainoo next to him to be a deep pairing. But use them as a deep pairing, not have one abandon position and leave the other with too much to do.
CAM - Bruno or Mount. Actually rotate them based on form, don't force them together. Both very good players, but different.
Wingers - 2 of Garnacho, Rashford, Antony, Amad. First 2 massively in favor as they have actual pace. Would use Rashford on the right and Garnacho left for the time being until Amad can show something. Antony... Better than nothing, but also irritating on the pitch.
CF - Happy with Hojlund, Martial as backup is fine. We aren't getting goals here right now but it's also far from our biggest problem and the goals will come for the players once the system, morale, selections improve.

Our squad might have issues, but it should be doing much better. Get the motivation right, get a normal system of football going again, switch to a 4-2-3-1 as that is what works with our squad of players and stick players in positions they are suited for. We'll have a much bigger improvement just from familiarity and comfort. We should be able to get back to playing at a top 4 level. Maybe enough to compete for the Europa League if we fall into it, by the time Martinez and Shaw return. By then, might have Ratcliffe in and the mood might be entirely different. We sure as shit aren't getting top 4 this season, aren't competing for the CL, so Europa League is our only viable path to remain in the CL. Though honestly I'm not that bothered about it. I'd rather us rebuild properly with a view of constant growth and aiming to peak as a team a few years from now with Hojlund and Garnacho and Mainoo as important players.
 
devilish said:
A- We need owners who care not about money but about the club. You'll never manage to keep the employees motivated if the owners don't give a feck
B- We need money. If a player needs to leave then he must leave, not next year, not in a half a decade time, NOW. Which leads us to C
C- Players and staff will struggle to remain motivated if their work facilities are a mess. OT and the training ground need to be brought to 2023 levels
D- We need specialized people who knows their stuff. That means a CEO with experience in managing a successful club, an experienced DOF who know how to unearth top talent on the cheap, who can make money out of transfers and who can identify what we need and fitness and sports specialists who know their stuff. These injuries must end
E- The transfer strategy needs to be shifted in the hands of those who know what they are doing. That means no 60m bid for a 30 year old DM, no 100m bid for a winger from Ajax, no 80m bid for a mid table defender and certainly no silly money for a left winger when we need a right winger and a no 10 when we've already got 3 players capable of playing that role.
F- Giggs once said that if he organized a clandestine party then the first to show up would be SAF. We need people at youth level who keep close tabs with the kids and makes sure that they stay in line. We've been losing too many youth talent down to poor attitude
G- Once A to F is implemented then high standards can be implemented. If a player only shows up a year before his contract expires then he is out, if someone leaks info to the media he is out, whoever doesn't give his 100 percent in training is out. Whoever is not good enough is out. That can be achieved because there's a structure in place capable of selling players for a reasonable amount of money which in turn allow us to bring new players in for a reasonable amount of money
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Agree with every single point and despite the stick Gary Neville gets for blaming the glazers at every opportunity, he’s actually spot on. Each of those points filter back to the Glazers incompetence in running a football club capable of competing at the top level.

No clear vision, poor appointments in leadership to create or implement a vision even if we had one, lack of investment in anywhere other than the pitch. Consistently poor decisions top to bottom, paired with the instability and toxicity caused by the ownership situation.

No wonder we are where we are.
 
daba said:
Agree with every single point and despite the stick Gary Neville gets for blaming the glazers at every opportunity, he’s actually spot on. Each of those points filter back to the Glazers incompetence in running a football club capable of competing at the top level.

No clear vision, poor appointments in leadership to create or implement a vision even if we had one, lack of investment in anywhere other than the pitch. Consistently poor decisions top to bottom, paired with the instability and toxicity caused by the ownership situation.

No wonder we are where we are.
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Any business is the direct reflection of its owner. The owner own the business, he hires people at top level who share his vision. Then the latter hire people who are in tune to that vision. Chelsea is a prime example to that. Todd Boelhy is a techie ie a business that is always on the move, that is always challenging boundaries and that is constantly changing. Chelsea is the reflection of that. The Glazers are the complete opposite. They made their wealth in real estate which means that their modus operandi is to buy an asset, sit on it, make profit if possible and then sell it later on. Innovation and efficiency is not important for them as they know that a real estate that is bought now will probably fetch double/triple the price in 20 years time. Which explains why the likes of Woodward, Arnold and Murtough had survived for so long despite producing so little.

If given control SJR will go down on them as a sledgehammer. The guy made money by buying parts of businesses who were on the cheap as that weren't making profit and then manage them to success. I don't know if he'll be a success with United but rest assured that heads will roll big time.
 
GreatDane said:
So much money spend and so little gained.
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If I had to summarize our transfer strategy it would be lack of understanding of how football work

a- Casemiro. He was signed as a result for the club failing to buy De Jong. At that point the transfer deadline was at the door and we panicked. Casemiro and Real themselves came to the conclusion that the offer was simply too good to turn down.
b- Maguire. The club completely misjudged were football was heading too. We bought a CB who while great for a deep line would struggle if we ever reverted to a high line defense. Sure City wanted him as well. However City wasn't ready to spend silly on the guy + they probably wanted a CB to bring in when they are winning a game and they need to defend in numbers
c- Sancho. We got dazzled by his Messiesque stats and no one bothered to check if the guy was happy to play as RW and if he had the attitude to succeed at a top club.
d- Anthony. The manager wanted him and that was it. That's because there's no one within the club who can negotiate a reasonable fee and say no (+ bring alternative names) in case that isn't possible.

These are the sort of mistakes we fans would do. That's because we lack the knowledge of football people, what's going behind the scenes + we are emotionally invested in the club. DOFs and CEOs should know better. SAF refused to sign Zidane because he needed a RW and Zidane was a CM. Despite Zidane was an excellent player, SAF didn't try to shoehorn him on the flank and he was certainly not in the mood to horde players because he knew that such a decision would be at the club's detriment. That's the sort of tough decisions, a top football man would have to take.
 
Scandi Red said:
In this order.

1. New owners (not the Qataris)
2. Hire competent people from top to bottom
3. DOF
4. Find the right manager

We've skipped the first 3 steps and gotten stuck in a hopeless loop on number 4.

Alternatively: just burn the club to the ground.
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this!

Guardiola’s pals were two or three years earlier at City to set the structure and organization right before he came. That takes time and we never really did that after Fergie left, we only changed coaches again and again and again.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
It seems like us fans keep going round and round in circles.

Apart from the awfully dissapointing end points for every managers tenure since Ferguson retired, it feels like us fans are left scraping at breadcrumbs of hope , with new manager bounces promising so much and delivering so little.

I have read many different explanations as to what Uniteds issues are and to honest , the issues have always been that there is no successful vision or proactive strategys that one can see. Its all reactionary and predicated on this "must finish top 4" idea (as if thats a good goal), which means managers and the club end up making either short term signings or opportunistic signings. This idea that "well the manager wanted this player or signed off on them" means that its a manager issue is nonsense to be honest. You can quite easily identify players that were signed because we couldnt actually get the managers main target and players who were signed becasue it was the best we could do. This has happened to every United manager. It doesnt seem to happen anywhere near as much at successful clubs and its not because (for example) Pep/Klopp always know who they want and the club gets them. Its sometimes even just waiting for the right player (like City waiting for Haaland or Liverpool waiting for VVD).

United alwyas buy a Mata Di Maria, Schweinsteiner , Zlatan, Matic , Sanchez, Varane, Ronaldo Casemeiro or Mount type player. Players who are available and kind of maybe sort of fit into whatever plans a manager might have, but equally they are players that most managers would say "why not" when asked if they would like to sign them. United are not getting the players United needs, but players who are avaiable, quite often players not really needed, but they would add to the team. Its why we end up with not enough CBs, CMs, Strikers, wingers etc, there is no joined up squad management process.

United empowering managers is a club issue, not a manager issue. If you say to a manager they have to achieve x and give them a budget, you are setting them up to fail if you dont have a club philospohy that is not a long term one (ie if it doesnt work out with this manager, we will at least have a balanced squad for next manager).

I could go on, but the issues at United for a decade have not been managers, its that there is no joined up football strategy and its basically rebuild after rebuild.

I would rather right now that the club is entirely restructured. I am not even thinking of ETH, the manager is the last thing we should be talking about until the club is in a space where it is being run efficiently. This is what seperates united from the top clubs, its not managers, its how our resources are being used. Regardless of who is managing United, I think the single most important thing could be Ratcliffe (if the rumours are true) completely revamping the club. We arent able to just outbid everybody anymore, Woodward pissed that away and clubs who even get a return on sales can compete with us.

Its a shame that not only do we , as fans, have to suffer the awful mismanagment of the club (on so many levels, many I havent even addressed in this post), but we end up at each others throats. But people demanding for ETHs head, whether that happens or not, you cant ignore the fact that uniteds issues appear to be quite unique that make comparing what works (or other managers working at other clubs) a fallacy belief. I feel some people bank on this new manager idea because its the only thing that offers them hope. A manager can come in and "do better with these players" (which coud be said for every "failed" united manager), so why does it only happen for a few months ? Its because a new manager can bring in new things, but ultimately the short term planning and targets (top 4) squeeze the managers/club to make short term squad decisions that very quickly fall apart. This wont change with a new manager.

I would rather we write off the next 2 seasons and work with ETH to try and build a proper squad that will be balanced enough to be able to offer something to any potential replacement if needs be. Every new United manager should only ever need 2-3 new/alternative additions. At the moment it seems like new United managers need an entire first team or half a squad replacement.
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I actually agree with almost everything you have mentioned here. People still think we just a de jong away from greatness...very shallow thinking. I also agree that we would rather work with Ten Hag but I think we need to 100% get an experienced DOF who knows how to build such teams...and they should work with Ten Hag to build profiles rather than demand for specific players.

Probably Our biggest problem in the transfer window is the demand by managers for specific players and we either overpay for them or we spend big on the cool available alternative that doesn't really fit the profile e.g ronaldo or mount or sanchez etc.

Ten hag should never be able to demand a specific player. He can make his preference known, but he should never demand. Actually the ability to demand is a huge red flag in the process...it means you are no longer using profiles and back onto the specific player mindset. Personally am in support of ditching murtough for someone like paul Mitchell. If we signed no one else, but made these changes, I would be more than happy. We spend a ton of money on very average players.
 
Scandi Red said:
In this order.

1. New owners (not the Qataris)
2. Hire competent people from top to bottom
3. DOF
4. Find the right manager

We've skipped the first 3 steps and gotten stuck in a hopeless loop on number 4.

Alternatively: just burn the club to the ground.
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I agree. Point 5 would be find the right players as we don't have them either. So if you want to break it down: Rebuild the whole structure of the football club.
 
One of the problems with our club is we’re not willing to take some short term pain for long term gain. We continually try to achieve immediate success. We need to forget about winning trophies/getting champions league football for a couple of years to implement a style of play with young hungry players who are going to get better. Start building around hojlund, Garnacho, Mainoo, Martinez, Onana and anyone who shows a desperation to stay and fight for the club. Reduce the crazy wages and sign players who are coming for the right reasons! It may take a few years but I’m confident a lot of fans would get behind it if it could break the disgusting cycle we find ourselves in right now
 
AndyMUFC86 said:
One of the problems with our club is we’re not willing to take some short term pain for long term gain. We continually try to achieve immediate success. We need to forget about winning trophies/getting champions league football for a couple of years to implement a style of play with young hungry players who are going to get better. Start building around hojlund, Garnacho, Mainoo, Martinez, Onana and anyone who shows a desperation to stay and fight for the club. Reduce the crazy wages and sign players who are coming for the right reasons! It may take a few years but I’m confident a lot of fans would get behind it if it could break the disgusting cycle we find ourselves in right now
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We need a year out and away from Europe IMO. Cleanse and reset the squad with more time on training pitch. We’ve seen it before with Chelsea and Arsenal and they’ve bounced back stronger.

I agree, I think we’ve been so fearful of not being in Europe that we constantly go for these short-term fixes, resulting in this feeling of constantly being in a critical rebuilding cycle.
 
I think we have to forget the ownership issue, there is such a small pool of potential buyers out there and it's clear the Glazers actually have no interest in a sale as it stands.

What needs to change on the football side is frustratingly simple, it should have been done years ago. Decide on the broadly how we want to play, hire a DoF who buys into that vision, hire a head coach who has a track record of that style of play/and has done it at a decent level.

On the scouting side, there is no longer a pursuit of big names or commercially driven signings, we have a template for each role and the list of targets is constantly being refreshed with a focus on younger players. We sign no one over about 25/26 years old. We deep dive into personalities and egos and any red flags mean we find other targets. There are plenty of good players out there.

Then you spend money, see what the coach can do, if positive you retain them and sign more players, if negative you find another coach. It's not guaranteed to work but it's guaranteed to create a clearer identity and allows for players who don't work out to retain some sell on value.
 
@Chumpsbechumps the bit in the OP about signings was the most refreshing thing I’ve read on here for ages :)

Fanboys/haters of individual managers get all hot and bothered by their boys “not being backed” or their hate objects “buying dross”. It appears to me that managers and scouts have limited input in the process and most of the deals are driven by player agents and selling clubs.

As a geek who did a bit of forensic accounting years ago I’d love to have a trawl over the books to see what commissions and arrangement fees have been paid, and to whom.
 
Arnold and Murtough and all others will remain in place until the Glazers give up control. We are still generating lots of revenue and the Glazers are not United fans so they are still happy. Duh. In their minds they don't know the difference between the Carabao Cup and the CL.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think we have to forget the ownership issue, there is such a small pool of potential buyers out there and it's clear the Glazers actually have no interest in a sale as it stands.

What needs to change on the football side is frustratingly simple, it should have been done years ago. Decide on the broadly how we want to play, hire a DoF who buys into that vision, hire a head coach who has a track record of that style of play/and has done it at a decent level.

On the scouting side, there is no longer a pursuit of big names or commercially driven signings, we have a template for each role and the list of targets is constantly being refreshed with a focus on younger players. We sign no one over about 25/26 years old. We deep dive into personalities and egos and any red flags mean we find other targets. There are plenty of good players out there.

Then you spend money, see what the coach can do, if positive you retain them and sign more players, if negative you find another coach. It's not guaranteed to work but it's guaranteed to create a clearer identity and allows for players who don't work out to retain some sell on value.
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It’s worth remembering that when we’ve moved failed/poor fit signings on quickly (di Maria, Lukaku, even Schneiderlin) we’ve generally got our money back.

It’s when we insist on giving them endless chances, often under different managers, in the hope that they’ll come good and hang onto them until they become semi-retired that we lose out.
 
Why not just feed all the info into a computer instead and see what it comes up with? It could even suggest Mounts best position.
 
Red_toad said:
No one on the Caf knows how to fix the club or has the ability to do so.
Why do we need so many threads about the same subject?
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oh yeah? any sane fan can see there are 5 simple things we can do to get back to the top of the tree, whether the glazers stay or not.

step one: name change. after two decades of dominating domestic football, everyone younger than 45 automatically hates manchester united, even man united fans, as evidenced by this forum. this leads to harsher treatment from pundits, referees and disciplinary panels alike. breaking this negative association will allow us to compete on an even footing, we might even get the rub of the green if we go with something non-offensive and inclusive, like “the southern northerner reds.”

step two: location change. manchester is blue. it’s also wet. it doesn’t have any lure for foreigners, or southerners. if the club is moved to a better, souther city, like london or bristol, then players would fall over themselves to join and match going fans wouldn’t have so far to travel for home matches. this all started going wrong when someone decided manchester united should be from manchester.

at this stage we’re not giving away shit penalties and home and away fans are happier to be in a nicer part of the country.

step three: only buy british players. everyone knows foreign ones are only here for a pay day. they want to be paid in the king’s currency. a currency with history, heritage, not a made up currency like the euro or the spanish potato. if we tell them they’re no longer allowed to play for us, they’ll all want to play for us even harder. three or four years of no foreigners and the likes of mbappe will be demanding to play for free. if we make the club like the mason’s, then the mystery and mystique that surrounds us will draw players to us.

step four: wear tighter kits. looks like the club are already trying this, but having kits that leave nothing to the imagination will only help attract more women and gay fans, brining in additional revenue streams.

step five: deprioritise football. no one cares about football nowadays, especially youngsters. it’s all tiktoking your junk to strangers and having casual e-sex whilst huffing balloon canisters. we should focus our energy on fly on the wall documentaries, with some made up story lines to add drama. we’d attract a way larger audience with our own version of geordie shore. something like “keeping up with the ten hagians.” with a strong focus on social media, we can’t fail.
 
Without a new owner with money to spend and to fund a clear out (so not Jim Brexit cobbling together enough to get a minority stake), it’s hard to imagine much will change.
 
Revaulx said:
It’s worth remembering that when we’ve moved failed/poor fit signings on quickly (di Maria, Lukaku, even Schneiderlin) we’ve generally got our money back.

It’s when we insist on giving them endless chances, often under different managers, in the hope that they’ll come good and hang onto them until they become semi-retired that we lose out.
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I think it's all about age.

Bucket 1 - old players with no sell on value who are often declining. These should simply not happen anymore.
Bucket 2 - promising younger players, if there are doubts/they fail here they should be moved on within two seasons i.e. VdB, Sacho, Antony end of this year, there are always clubs willing to pay decent fees for players in their early/mid twenties (and this also doesn't allow their value/reputation to tank as hard.
 
I would just love us to overhaul the transfer strategy from always buying the big, shiny, well known, expensive toy to looking more seriously at the lesser known, rough diamond, less expensive, meticulously scouted and ready to develop into a top class talent.
 
We’ve spent 450m since Ten Hag took over.

Money is there. We just spent it piss poorly. As a club, our recruitment and squad planning has been woeful since Ferguson left.

We should be targeting players no older than 24/25, and that can come in and play immediately.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I think it's all about age.

Bucket 1 - old players with no sell on value who are often declining. These should simply not happen anymore.
Bucket 2 - promising younger players, if there are doubts/they fail here they should be moved on within two seasons i.e. VdB, Sacho, Antony end of this year, there are always clubs willing to pay decent fees for players in their early/mid twenties (and this also doesn't allow their value/reputation to tank as hard.
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Oh I agree. But we rarely do that. This is VDB’s fourth season. How long did we hold onto Bailly?
 
Sack ETH now and get a motivator. A screamer in the dressing room till everyone's hair stand up. United player enjoyed life differently compared to other clubs. Wearing United jersey is a lifetime achievement for people never mind winning any games or perform on the pitch.
 
rpg said:
Sack ETH now and get a motivator. A screamer in the dressing room till everyone's hair stand up. United player enjoyed life differently compared to other clubs. Wearing United jersey is a lifetime achievement for people never mind winning any games or perform on the pitch.
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I can't tell if this is parody?

Either way, reminds me of this
 
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