Sjor Harmsopoly R1: Gio vs Pat

With players at their peaks listed below, who would win? (Only votes accompanied by a post count)

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Physiocrat

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Gio

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Pat

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Gio Tactics

PLAYER PEAKS
  1. Lev Yashin (career)
  2. Danny McGrain (Celtic) - Danny spent his full career at Celtic
  3. Marcelo (Real Madrid) - spent his prime with Madrid
  4. Thiago Silva (career)
  5. Laurent Blanc (Napoli) - aged 26 - strong season for Napoli who finished 4th, with Blanc scoring 6 goals.
  6. Paul Scholes (career)
  7. Cristiano Ronaldo (career)
  8. Patrick Vieira (Arsenal) - Paddy spent his best years at Highbury
  9. Didier Drogba (career)
  10. Paul Breitner (Eintracht Braunschweig) - aged 26 - sandwiched between Real Madrid and Bayern Munich.
  11. Paco Gento (Real Madrid) - spent his full career at the Bernabeu
TACTICS
  • Counter-attacking transition-based 4-3-3 with shades of Chelsea 04-06 and Real 2010s
  • Scholes is dropped into the #6 role. He will spray diagonals into the channels for Gento and Ronaldo to chase. He will also partner well with the leggy box-to-box Vieira and energetic Breitner ahead.
  • When Marcelo advances, McGrain can tuck in. While the defence will operate zonally, generally I would expect Thiago Silva's athleticism to match up to Rummy, while Blanc's cerebral reading of the game to shut down the space in front of Puskas. McGrain with his experience across the back can limit the space.
  • Breitner will look for Cristiano's runs coming in from the right. Should share some similarities with his partnership with Rummenigge.
  • Gento will work the left wing whipping in crosses for Drogba and Cristiano to attack. Drogba has the supreme strength to be an out-ball to hold it in for Scholes, Breitner and Cristiano to take digs from the edge of the box - and knows how to sacrifice himself for the benefit of the team.
Pat Tactics

Formation: An aggressive 3-4-3 with a libero, attacking WBs and Puskas as a False 9. Attack in numbers and press high where possible to exploit our probable advantage in collective defensive work-rate.

  • I'm happy with our peaks in this draft, with everyone bar Hakimi at the top of their game in these incarnations. Hakimi had yet to begin ironing out his considerable defensive flaws but was already an attacking monster.
  • Deploying the high line against Gio's attack even sporadically is risky, but Neuer is the best ever GK at making that tactic work.
  • Brimming with specialists in their respective positions: Hakimi was a liability in a back four at this stage of his development but a barnstorming RWB, Azpi as an RCB in a back five, and most significantly Sammer as a tour de force as a back five libero.
  • Netto is preferred to Mendieta in midfield as he seems the more qualified fit at dropping in to cover for Sammer.
  • Puskas role and supporting cast is designed to utilise his wonderful creativity (400+ career assists) as well as his prolific goalscoring. Rummenigge provides considerable brawn and bruising physicality on top of all his other attributes, and Reus is a consummate team player and ideally suited to a fluid attack.
 
Voted for Pat_Mustard due to Gio using 2 players (Blanc and Breitner) with 1 season peaks
 
I suppose you can interpret it that way. But that suggests those players only peaked for a single year and didn’t sustain that level. In effect that they were purple patch players, Adriano or Miku types. That’s where the idea of a 3-year peak came from - to flush out the guys who didn’t sustain a top level.

Whereas you take any random game from Breitner or Blanc’s seasons, and you are getting prime Breitner and Blanc. Both at the peak of their powers, aged 26, and fully fledged internationals. Go a few years either side of that and you are still getting primo Breitner and Blanc. No flash in the pan pish here, Eintracht and Napoli enjoyed prime rib.

It seems like a differing interpretation to the last draft where half of the players in the final had non-existent United peaks but were eligible and treated equally nonetheless.

But it’s an interesting point.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
How good was Costacurta as LCB @Pat_Mustard ? I recall he played RB in that finals, but don't recall him left sided.
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Transfermarkt neatly lists him as having 45 appearances at LB over his career and 45 at RB. A couple of full-match examples of him at LB:

https://footballia.net/matches/afc-ajax-ac-milan-champions-league-2002-2003

https://footballia.net/matches/werder-bremen-ac-milan-european-cup

I don't think there's too much to suggest he favoured a certain side. He's racked up plenty of playing time in back fives as well over his career, particularly under Zaccheroni, and of course spent much of his career as a sidekick to a dominant libero (Baresi). I'm quite happy with his fit here and that of my defence overall, although it could certainly benefit from an upgrade in quality.
 
I think Hakimi is probably Pat's weakest player, but he's in a position where is weaknesses aren't exposed. Voted for Pat as I like the rest of his team and it looks like a unit that will work well together with everyone in their best positions.

For Gio, I feel like this team is set up more to be a 4-4-2 as the dimensions are a bit off for 4-3-3 with Gento in there.
 
Gio said:
I suppose you can interpret it that way. But that suggests those players only peaked for a single year and didn’t sustain that level. In effect that they were purple patch players, Adriano or Miku types. That’s where the idea of a 3-year peak came from - to flush out the guys who didn’t sustain a top level.

Whereas you take any random game from Breitner or Blanc’s seasons, and you are getting prime Breitner and Blanc. Both at the peak of their powers, aged 26, and fully fledged internationals. Go a few years either side of that and you are still getting primo Breitner and Blanc. No flash in the pan pish here, Eintracht and Napoli enjoyed prime rib.

It seems like a differing interpretation to the last draft where half of the players in the final had non-existent United peaks but were eligible and treated equally nonetheless.

But it’s an interesting point.
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I'm not opposed to a shorter stint per se - I opted for fit and quality over longevity myself with Hakimi from the Dortmund box, where I could just as easily have selected Reuter with his 12 year Dortmund career, but lesser technique and attacking output.

However, I'm unsure that either Blanc or Breitner's single seasons were seamless exhibitions of their peak level.

Blanc at Napoli:

It's worth noting firstly that Blanc had only converted to central defence from attacking midfield in 1990, so it stands to reason that he wouldn't be quite the assured reader of the game that he'd later become in his 1991-92 season at Napoli. Secondly, while their fourth place finish was impressive, it seems to have been driven overwhelmingly by their strength in attack. They were third top scorers in Serie A with 56 goals, whereas they leaked 40 goals in 34 matches in a low-scoring Serie A that averaged only 2.27 goals per match. Their defensive record was actually the worst of any team that finished in the top half of the table, and they conceded exactly twice as many goals as third-placed Torino.

Now the Serie A club presidents of that era could be a capricious bunch, so there's every chance that he was scapegoating Blanc unduly, but Napoli president Corrado Ferlaino was sufficiently underwhelmed to the point that he tried to sell Blanc at the end of the season, and when that failed he loaned him out to lowly Nimes instead. Nimes had finished in 15th place in 1991-92, and were subsequently relegated during Blanc's single season at the club. I do wonder if it's telling that he wasn't snapped up by a PSG or a Marseille. It seems to suggest a mid-career lull in the manner of Van Der Sar having to take a step down to Fulham after his abortive Juve stint, rather than an all-time great operating at the peak of his powers.

A nice, Google translated Italian article about Blanc at Napoli. Long and a bit garbled, but a good read:

It won't be cold and stormy like the Danube , the Gulf of Naples : on the contrary, with a small boat, especially in summer, it can be decidedly pleasant... but young Miodrag in Belgrade has doubts. And nothing but doubts, on the other side of the world, in Brazil, Antonio de Oliveira has absolutely insisted: he is not returning to the gulf, rather Japan .
Maradona is closed to Villa Devoto, Buenos Aires : he doesn't set foot in Naples. And in the difficult summer of downsizing , of an emerging coach who must start again far from the Maradonian glories, the problems for the engineer and owner of Napoli, Corrado Ferlaino , are not over. The last championship, the 90/91 one, as reigning Italian champions was a shock: Diego's latest tantrums, tantrums and the private jet to Moscow only to then exit the European Cup on penalties at the hands of Spartak , the disqualification for doping and an anonymous eighth place finish. Competing with Berlusconi 's Milan is now impossible, but Ferlaino wants to try to set up a competitive team for Claudio Ranieri anyway . There are many problems, and not just the debt burden which is starting to become worrying. Careca is in Brazil, and after Maradona's doping ban he doesn't want to return to Naples: he asks to be sold, and from the statements he makes to the Brazilian media he actually seems dazed by the prospect of playing without Diego next to him: "I want to end my career with him , we will spend six months at Boca Juniors and six months in a Brazilian team."

He will apologize: Gianfranco Zola is waiting for him . We then need a libero: last season too many goals were conceded and Renica was sold to Verona . The engineer likes Miodrag Belodedici : he has a romantic story behind him, apparently he escaped on a raft from Steaua Bucharest , from Romania and from Ceausescu , and what's more he is strong.
He costs a lot though, and there are a lot of teams after him. He will prefer Valencia. And then there's Laurent Blanc from Montpellier: an atypical libero, so much so that he scored 18 goals in a single season, a great physique and also a nice head. He too is expensive and the usual Bernard Tapie , president of Marseille who is involved in practically all the negotiations of the Italian teams, is responsible for raising the price. Not only that: the FIGC is also making a fuss. Once the competition from the other teams has been overcome with 5 and a half billion lire, once Blanc's yes has been received, the federation stops: "You already have Alemao , Careca and Maradona, how can you register another foreigner?". This too will be overcome: Maradona is disqualified for two years, Napoli can take Blanc with an exemption.

And Laurent arrives, introduced at the Hotel Vesuvio where he refuses the interpreter: "I want to learn your language soon", but also showing character . So much so to say: “But while I learn your language, respect mine too: my name is written Blanc , but pronounced Blòn”. High ambitions: “Excellent team, title-winning… free? Yes, but I also like to play attack . " Too much though: often present in the opponent's penalty area, often absent in his own. Lots of goals: six, for a free throw , in Italy, that's a lot. But also too many mistakes that will put him on the gridiron despite a positive championship, which ended with a fourth place. For Ferlaino, however, that player was a flop: he tried to sell him to PSG , in vain, and after months of tension at the end of the summer of '92 he was forced to loan him to Nimes . Making a mistake: Napoli's defence, without Blanc, will be such a problem in the 1992-'93 season that they risk relegation , but now there is a rift between Laurent and the club and after the loan to Nimes he will be sold permanently to Saint Etienne.

Failure? Yes, but also the beginning of a fabulous career for the libero from Alés: he will win the championship and the French cup with Auxerre , then he will move to Barcelona where he will win the Spanish cup and the Cup Winners' Cup, he will become, with kisses on his bald of Barthez and leader of the transalpine defense, world champion in 1998, when he returned to Italy, to Inter , baptizing his Nerazzurri adventure with a goal against Napoli , then he won the European Championships and ended his career at Manchester United , winning the Premier League League . So many difficulties to get it, so much haste to get rid of it: not even time to learn to say " Blòn ".
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Just about lean Pat here as I'm not in love with the deployment of Ronaldo on the right or his partnership with Drogba. I think he works better with a roving forward like a Rooney, Benzema, Villa, etc. rather than an orthodox target man. I prefer the mix of Puskas with Kalle and Reus making runs ahead of him.
 
Breitner at Eintracht Braunschweig:

There's no arguing with his goalscoring output here of 11 goals in 37 matches, and unlike Blanc he swiftly moved onwards and upwards with his transfer to Bayern Munich, but Breitner's year at Braunschweig doesn't seem to have been a happy one for club or player.

Braunschweig had finished third in the Bundesliga the season before Breitner joined, level on points with second-placed Schalke and only a point behind champions Borussia Monchengladbach. In Breitner's solitary season there they plummeted to 13th place in an 18 team league. It's obviously quite difficult to seperate Breitner's individual level from that of an underperforming team, but he didn't make Kicker's Bundesliga Team of the Season that year, whereas he did in 4 of his 5 subsequent seasons. In their Summer 1978 edition, at the end of Breitner's season at Braunschweig, they ranked him as the 9th best midfielder in the Bundesliga. His subsequent rankings at Bayern were 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st - suggesting a serious upward trend in performance level as he reestablished himself as the country's best midfielder.

A good article translated from German

50 years, 50 faces: For DFB.de , author and historian Udo Muras retells the history of the Bundesliga through personalities who shaped the German elite league. Year for year. Today the 1977/1978 season: a world champion for Braunschweig.

The first rumors began circulating on April 12, 1977. A little too late for an April Fool's joke, and yet some people were inclined to put them in that drawer. But the very next day the deal was concluded and the rumor was fact: Paul Breitner was supposed to return to the Bundesliga - but not to his Bayern, which he had left as world champions in 1974, but to Eintracht Braunschweig.

To Madrid with a check in my jacket

Would he really leave Real Madrid for the Lower Saxony provincial club? Yes, he would. In the mid-1970s, the people of Braunschweig also tried to push into the power vacuum created by Bayern Munich's collapse after 1974. In the spring of 1977, they dreamed of repeating their only championship ten years earlier; coach Branko Zebec's team still had a chance of winning the title until the last matchday. With Breitner, then 26, they now want to reach for the trophy. Thanks to their patron Günter Mast, who paid the 1.6 million mark transfer fee out of his own pocket.

President Fricke immediately flies to Madrid with the check in his jacket and talks about it: "When they realized that we were paying in cash, the Spaniards immediately accepted our offer." At the same time, he got to know Breitner as a "clean and correct man," which led him to predict: "I think we won't have any problems with him." He should be wrong.

Breitner signs a three-year contract, moves into a bungalow with his wife and two children and enrolls at the Kant University to study social pedagogy again. But after just one season he was packing his bags again. Why? The critics who said he was too big for this club were proved right. Everything revolves around Breitner; tourist buses stop in front of his bungalow. And the pharmacist across the street also likes to send customers to Breitners when her shop is still closed - to shorten the waiting time. A world star in the province.

Controversies with teammates

All of this fuels envy. Breitner maintains a distance from his colleagues and friendships like those he once had with Uli Hoeneß at Bayern do not develop. Looking back, Breitner admits a mistake: "I should have contacted the younger players on my team right from the start. I neglected to do that, and that's how the controversy arose." He should and wants to be a leader, but he was unable to "motivate the other players; there was a wall of envy and hatred around me," he told Kicker in the fall of 1978, when he was back at Bayern.

Breitner describes that one day in Braunschweig he set up 20 chairs in a circle for his colleagues and sat himself in the middle. So he basically organizes his own criminal court. “I asked them what they had against me,” he says. "Nobody said anything for a long time, then all that came out was rubbish. For example, why I was the only one at supplier Puma."

Of course, some colleagues dare to open up the controversy publicly. The old warhorse Wolfgang Grzyb even received a penalty for this, while his competitor Charly Handschuh got away unscathed when he said: "I'm in charge of the midfield - not Paul Breitner."

Fatal start to the season

These are not the first controversies in Paul Breitner's life, and perhaps he would have fought them out for a while if at least there had been success. But it starts off disastrous. During the game in Kaiserslautern, referee Wilfried Burgers stretches Eintracht's Reiner Hollmann to the ground during a defensive move, and he is eliminated unconscious. Hothead Breitner says in front of the TV microphones: "I didn't know that in Germany referees were allowed to knock down players," for which he was fined over 5,000 marks by the DFB. After all, he is still burning with ambition.

In any case, it's not Breitner's fault that the ambitious Eintracht only finished thirteenth. "No matter how poorly Paul played - and that happened more often towards the end of the season - he was still the outstanding player," can be read in the Copress publishing yearbook. Breitner's more than passable record for a midfielder with ten goals in 30 appearances and his noticeable development from a dutiful left defender to a leader and central game leader drove him back into the open arms of FC Bayern in 1978, where he would usher in a new era of success.

As he says goodbye to Braunschweig, he says: "I made mistakes and I learned. But I don't regret the year in Braunschweig." Günter Mast will remain his friend - and when he becomes Eintracht president, he will sometimes employ Paul Breitner as his personal advisor.
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It's clear that his face simply didn't fit in that dressing room, and it's likely that if you'd plonked that exact same 26 year old Breitner into a more harmonious team that he'd have been great. But if we only have 37 matches to judge him on, and he was nowhere near his best for much of that time, it's a tough ask to give him a pass and call this peak Breitner.
 
Not able to separate the teams.

Like the peaks and chemistry in Pat's team but its tough to look past Gio's wings against the narrow defense of Pat, wonder how much much freedom the wingbacks would have to attack considering the likes of Marcelo/Gento/Cristiano can punish you in a flash. Willing to even look past it being a non peak Brietner, he is besides Vieira and Scholes in their club peaks, should elevate his game IMO.

Calling it a draw, but if forced to vote at gun point, would probably go with Gio, hit me up, if it ends up in tied score.
 
Was sure I'd be voting Gio but Pats arguments have swung it for me. I like the idea of staying true to the draft and judging based on the criteria and so having a weaker Blanc and Breitner swing it.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Not able to separate the teams.

Like the peaks and chemistry in Pat's team but its tough to look past Gio's wings against the narrow defense of Pat, wonder how much much freedom the wingbacks would have to attack considering the likes of Marcelo/Gento/Cristiano can punish you in a flash. Willing to even look past it being a non peak Brietner, he is besides Vieira and Scholes in their club peaks, should elevate his game IMO.

Calling it a draw, but if forced to vote at gun point, would probably go with Gio, hit me up, if it ends up in tied score.
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This is the tactical elephant in the room. So we have:
  • Paul Scholes effectively operating in a free role at the base of midfield (who is pressing him - Puskas?!). That's one of the best long-range passers of all time with space to hit diagonals in behind the wing-backs.
  • Gento hugging the touchline, pulling Hakimi back and Azpicilueta wide. Tactical-wise that's a big problem and quality-wise that's simply a huge mismatch.
  • Cristiano Ronaldo hitting the same space off the right, getting into footraces with Costacurta that he'll win just about every time.
  • Costacurta, Sammer and Azpilicueta playing a high line against Gento and Cristiano Ronaldo pinning them wide and high. Gento and Ronaldo murder them for pace. Neuer can cover some of that in central areas, but as set out in the OP the plan to hit diagonals into wide areas causes him a problem too.


Himannv said:
I think Hakimi is probably Pat's weakest player, but he's in a position where is weaknesses aren't exposed. Voted for Pat as I like the rest of his team and it looks like a unit that will work well together with everyone in their best positions.

For Gio, I feel like this team is set up more to be a 4-4-2 as the dimensions are a bit off for 4-3-3 with Gento in there.
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Well he's up against a Marcelo and Gento flank. That's a brutal assignment.
 
Blanc at Napoli
  • 1991-92 would be their best campaign for the next 20 years.
  • The season after he leaves they concede 25% more goals and they sink to 11th in the table (him going is the only difference in the back 5)
  • He had a 6.21 average rating from the media. Now that's not quite GOAT Baresi and Kohler level who led the charts, but it's actually a very solid season. For example, it was a higher average rating than Bergomi and Ferri had at Inter (despite their own very impressive defensive record)
To put that into context in his team, the usual set-up was:

Ferrara RB - 6.06
Corradini CB - 5.93
Blanc Libero/LCB - 6.21
Francini LB - 6.08

So he was their best performing defender as assessed by the journalists who watched him every game.
 
Hard to call, as expected. Also love to see a good discussion in here.

Bits & pieces:

Hakimi makes a lot of sense in this formation and I totally get why Pat chose him over Reuter. I generally find Pat's "front 7" superbly constructed & filled with an exciting mix of players.

Regarding Breitner, I'm with Gio. I think the troubles around his Braunschweig stint were more on a personal level than about a dip in playing prowess. Also noteworthy that kicker ranked him International Class (2nd highest category) in both Braunschweig half seasons.

Regarding Blanc, Pat makes a good argument, but I really have no clue about the player during that time.

Must say I'm not 100% convinced by Gio's front three + full backs. I think Cristiano would be the required scoring threat if he'd drift central a lot (basically as 2nd striker), which I suspect he'd do in any case. But then I'm not sure McGrain is the ideal RB behind him (happy to be corrected). As it is, the whole balance seems a bit off to me. Drogba - Breitner - Vieira in the center is fantastic, though.

All in all I'm giving this to Gio. I think Azpi is in a lot of trouble against Gio's left side, especially in a high line against Gento, and because Sammer will make him a true CB often enough. With a more steady middle CB or a deeper setup - maybe. But not like this.
 
brilliant arguments boys, impossible to separate the teams
 
Synco said:
All in all I'm giving this to Gio. I think Azpi is in a lot of trouble against Gio's left side, especially in a high line against Gento, and because Sammer will make him a true CB often enough. With a more steady middle CB or a deeper setup - maybe. But not like this.
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I'm not sure who to vote for but this is Pat's biggest problem.
 
Well played Pat - as ever you presented well constructed and cohesive arguments.
 
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