Signing PL players

Pogue Mahone

Closet Gooner.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
137,469
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I've always thought that a successful team will usually build a squad with an emphasis on signing the best players in the league in which they compete. Unless they're extremely lucky and a bunch of the best players in that league come up through their academy. Although, obviously, if you tick both boxes that's ideal. That was certainly the blueprint for Fergie. Our last league title in 2012/13 was massively reliant on two players who we signed from other PL clubs, Van Persie (Arsenal) and Carrick (Spurs) With important contributions from Rooney (Everton), Ferdinand (West Ham) Valencia (Wigan) Smalling (Fulham) Young (Villa) So that's seven regular starters that season who came from other PL clubs (usually the best player at the club)

In our current squad we have three players that came from other PL clubs: Maguire, Mount and Shaw.

We signed Mason Mount last summer but you need to go back 5 years for the next time this happened, when we signed Maguire and AWB. I think it's fair to say that none of these players would have been described as the best players at their club when we signed them. So we seem to be have fewer PL players in our squad, are signing them infrequently and not from the top tier.

In the period of time where we signed Mount, Maguire and AWB the following PL players have been signed by our rivals.

After each club name I will put the number of PL signings in their current squad (which includes some players signed before Maguire/AWB)

Arsenal (8)
Jesus
Zinchenko
Raya
Sterling
White
Jorghinho
Rice
Trossard

City (7)
Grealish
Nunes
Phillips
Ake
Kovacic

Chelsea (12)
Caicedo
Palmer
Chukwuemeka
Sanches
Cucurella
Wesley Fofana
Neto
Sancho
Dewsbury-Hall
Lavia
Colwill

Liverpool (5)
Jota
McAllister
Elliot

So we have the lowest number of PL signings in our current squad and have signed a lot less than all of our rivals (apart from, interestingly, Liverpool)

Should we read anything into this?

Should we be making more of an effort to sign PL players?

Or is it once bitten, twice shy, after Schneiderlin, Fellaini, Mata etc
 
In fairness we do sign the best players in the league, they just happen to be the best players in a different, much weaker Dutch league.
 
Not necessarily to disagree with your point but a few things, in no particular order.

Under Ferguson we were able to sign the top grade of (available) players in the league, whereas due to our current malaise we'd be looking at Calvert-Lewins and Solankes at best, not van Persies.

Since Ferguson's time in charge the gap between the wealth of the Premier League and the rest of the world has grown, so PL clubs are increasingly able to hold out for huge fees, making PL players increasingly poor value.

Chelsea's number is obviously inflated by their massively oversized squad.
 
dcrompton said:
Normally to sign players within the same league it needs to be a step up for the player so it’s a bit harder when you finish 8th.
Click to expand...
Most players not already at City, Pool, Arse or Chelsea would happily still come here from every other club. The problem is that it costs an absolute fortune to buy from other PL clubs now. Solanke cost Spurs £60m and he’s bang average.
 
It has become too expensive to sign the best players in the league, which is why clubs prefer shopping elsewhere.

Check City, whose this incarnation is kinda most successful team in the history of the league, the only two really important players they have signed from the league are Stones and Walker. The likes of Ake, Kovaciv and Grealish have also contributed but they are not that important to this team. Their top players have been players signed outside of the league, De Bruyne, Haaland, B. Silva, Pedri, Dias etc. And before that, the likes of Aguero, D. Silva, Kompany, Gundogan, Laporte, Fernandinho, Yaya Toure.

So I do not think there is anything wrong with shopping elsewhere. You have higher risk, but cheaper prices. The problem has been that we have signed wrong players be it when shopping domestically or overseas.
 
The problem is it's becoming more difficult to buy from PL clubs because of how insanely rich they've become, they're not as desperate for the money. And of course when Man United come knocking they'll whack another 20% on the fee.

Though if you look at that list, I'd say it's only really worked out for Arsenal and Liverpool. Raya, White, Jorginho, Rice and Trossard are undoubtedly good signings for Arsenal and Jota and Mac Allister have been good for Liverpool.

City you could argue only Ake and Kovacic have been worth it. Chelsea struck gold with Palmer but the rest of that list looks a bit crap for the money they spent (also a few still to be judged).

I guess it all goes down to recruitment. If we can find good options from lower placed teams then that's great, but it's more likely cheaper to find someone similar elsewhere.
 
Eriksen was a free signing but did a short Brentford stint before being signed. In his pro career he played most of his games in the PL.

Bit of nitpicking here.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Most players not already at City, Pool, Arse or Chelsea would happily still come here from every other club. The problem is that it costs an absolute fortune to buy from other PL clubs now. Solanke cost Spurs £60m and he’s bang average.
Click to expand...

Do they though? When you look at how dysfunctional we are, and how few players improve after coming here, if you were Eze and had offers from city, Liverpool, Arsenal and United where would you go for your career?
 
Revan said:
It has become too expensive to sign the best players in the league, which is why clubs prefer shopping elsewhere.

Check City, whose this incarnation is kinda most successful team in the history of the league, the only two really important players they have signed from the league are Stones and Walker. The likes of Ake, Kovaciv and Grealish have also contributed but they are not that important to this team. Their top players have been players signed outside of the league, De Bruyne, Haaland, B. Silva, Pedri, Dias etc. And before that, the likes of Aguero, D. Silva, Kompany, Gundogan, Laporte, Fernandinho, Yaya Toure.

So I do not think there is anything wrong with shopping elsewhere. You have higher risk, but cheaper prices. The problem has been that we have signed wrong players be it when shopping domestically or overseas.
Click to expand...
Yeah and look at the costs City spent on those squad players too... 100m for Grealish, 50m or so for Ake, and most of those domestic buys for Arsenal aren't really important players. Only Van Dijk and Mac Allister are important for Liverpool, Jota as a good impact sub... We shouldn't ignore the Prem, but it's not worth the prices usually.

We should be looking big for Wharton but otherwise, meh.
 
dcrompton said:
Do they though? When you look at how dysfunctional we are, and how few players improve after coming here, if you were Eze and had offers from city, Liverpool, Arsenal and United where would you go for your career?
Click to expand...
Yes but Eze didn't have offers from any of those, did he? Of course we are behind those clubs right now as a package but it doesn't take long to change that. We did just sign Yoro for example.
 
L
bosnian_red said:
Yeah and look at the costs City spent on those squad players too... 100m for Grealish, 50m or so for Ake, and most of those domestic buys for Arsenal aren't really important players. Only Van Dijk and Mac Allister are important for Liverpool, Jota as a good impact sub... We shouldn't ignore the Prem, but it's not worth the prices usually.

We should be looking big for Wharton but otherwise, meh.
Click to expand...

Oh come on…
 
We also rarely do business with Arsenal and almost never with Liverpool and City which restricts our ability to sign quality players that might be looking for a new challenge.

I think the issue is less that we haven't signed PL proven players but that we have signed players not suited to PL football.

The likes of Sancho, Antony and Casemiro(with the benefit of hindsight) are just not physical or smart enough to play high speed end to end football. This is my worry with our young kids as well. We've already sold the likes of Pellestri, Angel, Alvaro because they were deemed not physically ready but now we have to hope Garnacho, Amad, Rasmus and Mainoo will develop into PL stalwarts.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I've always thought that a successful team will usually build a squad with an emphasis on signing the best players in the league in which they compete. Unless they're extremely lucky and a bunch of the best players in that league come up through their academy. Although, obviously, if you tick both boxes that's ideal. That was certainly the blueprint for Fergie. Our last league title in 2012/13 was massively reliant on two players who we signed from other PL clubs, Van Persie (Arsenal) and Carrick (Spurs) With important contributions from Rooney (Everton), Ferdinand (West Ham) Valencia (Wigan) Smalling (Fulham) Young (Villa) So that's seven regular starters that season who came from other PL clubs (usually the best player at the club)

In our current squad we have three players that came from other PL clubs: Maguire, Mount and Shaw.

We signed Mason Mount last summer but you need to go back 5 years for the next time this happened, when we signed Maguire and AWB. I think it's fair to say that none of these players would have been described as the best players at their club when we signed them. So we seem to be have fewer PL players in our squad, are signing them infrequently and not from the top tier.

In the period of time where we signed Mount, Maguire and AWB the following PL players have been signed by our rivals.

After each club name I will put the number of PL signings in their current squad (which includes some players signed before Maguire/AWB)

Arsenal (8)
Jesus
Zinchenko
Raya
Sterling
White
Jorghinho
Rice
Trossard

City (7)
Grealish
Nunes
Phillips
Ake
Kovacic

Chelsea (12)
Caicedo
Palmer
Chukwuemeka
Sanches
Cucurella
Wesley Fofana
Neto
Sancho
Dewsbury-Hall
Lavia
Colwill

Liverpool (5)
Jota
McAllister
Elliot

So we have the lowest number of PL signings in our current squad and have signed a lot less than all of our rivals (apart from, interestingly, Liverpool)

Should we read anything into this?

Should we be making more of an effort to sign PL players?

Or is it once bitten, twice shy, after Schneiderlin, Fellaini, Mata etc
Click to expand...

Don’t think it makes a difference, if anything it’s far more difficult now to sign the “best players at a PL club” because almost all of them are flush with cash so the price tags will be huge.

As always, just sign the best players that make sense for the squad at the right price. If they are already in the PL, great. If not, that’s fine too.
 
I'd wait next summer to see if the new direction doesn't seek after a couple of players from the PL if only to also replenish homegrown quotas. We know they had at least one target this summer but in a context where they absolutely needed not to get taken to the cleaners it makes sense they shopped more abroad.

There's also some seasonal variation because two seasons ago you could count Phil Jones, some backup GKs and even Wout loan perhaps as "from the PL" ? And I don't remember where Evans was contracted just before.

I think the problem with "PL proven" is that, as you said, we didn't have the best luck with it. The proving period gets shorter and shorter while the prices go higher.

Wouldn't mind United lifting a good player from Brighton or Palace and have it be successful for once.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
L


Oh come on…
Click to expand...
What?? Jota has been an impact sub since he arrived at Liverpool! He's a good player but he's hardly been that important to them beyond being an impact sub? 12 league starts in his first season, 27 in 2nd (starter), 12 in his 3rd, 14 in his 4th...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I've always thought that a successful team will usually build a squad with an emphasis on signing the best players in the league in which they compete. Unless they're extremely lucky and a bunch of the best players in that league come up through their academy. Although, obviously, if you tick both boxes that's ideal. That was certainly the blueprint for Fergie. Our last league title in 2012/13 was massively reliant on two players who we signed from other PL clubs, Van Persie (Arsenal) and Carrick (Spurs) With important contributions from Rooney (Everton), Ferdinand (West Ham) Valencia (Wigan) Smalling (Fulham) Young (Villa) So that's seven regular starters that season who came from other PL clubs (usually the best player at the club)

In our current squad we have three players that came from other PL clubs: Maguire, Mount and Shaw.

We signed Mason Mount last summer but you need to go back 5 years for the next time this happened, when we signed Maguire and AWB. I think it's fair to say that none of these players would have been described as the best players at their club when we signed them. So we seem to be have fewer PL players in our squad, are signing them infrequently and not from the top tier.

In the period of time where we signed Mount, Maguire and AWB the following PL players have been signed by our rivals.

After each club name I will put the number of PL signings in their current squad (which includes some players signed before Maguire/AWB)

Arsenal (8)
Jesus
Zinchenko
Raya
Sterling
White
Jorghinho
Rice
Trossard

City (7)
Grealish
Nunes
Phillips
Ake
Kovacic

Chelsea (12)
Caicedo
Palmer
Chukwuemeka
Sanches
Cucurella
Wesley Fofana
Neto
Sancho
Dewsbury-Hall
Lavia
Colwill

Liverpool (5)
Jota
McAllister
Elliot

So we have the lowest number of PL signings in our current squad and have signed a lot less than all of our rivals (apart from, interestingly, Liverpool)

Should we read anything into this?

Should we be making more of an effort to sign PL players?

Or is it once bitten, twice shy, after Schneiderlin, Fellaini, Mata etc
Click to expand...

You've missed off Stones for City but it's an underwhelming list of players isn't it? Rice, Neto, MacAllister, and Jota are good players, Palmer is excellent, and I'd have been excited about Grealish if we'd have signed him before Pep and the booze took his soul, but there's a lot of very average rubbish in there.

They're not all bad players obviously but nobody is writing to Santa for a Ben White or Dewsbury-Hall shirt are they?

I think it might be a league problem with player mobility more generally - it's a lot easier and cheaper to sign from abroad. On the plus side the incentive to develop your own academy players is huge now, it's just about making sure they don't have it too easy because you can't get a replacement.
 
TwoSheds said:
You've missed off Stones for City but it's an underwhelming list of players isn't it? Rice, Neto, MacAllister, and Jota are good players, Palmer is excellent, and I'd have been excited about Grealish if we'd have signed him before Pep and the booze took his soul, but there's a lot of very average rubbish in there.

They're not all bad players obviously but nobody is writing to Santa for a Ben White or Dewsbury-Hall shirt are they?

I think it might be a league problem with player mobility more generally - it's a lot easier and cheaper to sign from abroad. On the plus side the incentive to develop your own academy players is huge now, it's just about making sure they don't have it too easy because you can't get a replacement.
Click to expand...
I thought exactly the same when I saw that list. Some great players in there but also a bunch of pretty forgettable ones who you could easily replace with someone else from outside the EPL, and probably for less money.

We should probably still do better but when we have signed from other PL clubs I think it's generally been the right idea. Maguire was one of the best CBs in the league at the time and even City wanted him, but he was just never worth £80m. We wanted Branthwaite who I think would have been a really good signing, but not for the £70m+ Everton are looking for. Shaw was a fantastic singing in terms of profile and price, he's just had his career cruelly limited by a terrible injury where he nearly lost his leg.

AWB was one of the highest rated RBs in the league at the time, but it was another short sighted signing in terms of looking at how the football landscape was changing. Mount is a good player and I don't think he's a waste of money at all, but his injuries are becoming a huge concern and not sure I like how he's become fundamental to how EtH wants us to play this season. We probably overpaid too with how his contract with Chelsea was running out. I think if INEOS were already in place at the time then we would have walked away or shaved £10m off the price, eventually.
 
TwoSheds said:
You've missed off Stones for City but it's an underwhelming list of players isn't it? Rice, Neto, MacAllister, and Jota are good players, Palmer is excellent, and I'd have been excited about Grealish if we'd have signed him before Pep and the booze took his soul, but there's a lot of very average rubbish in there.

They're not all bad players obviously but nobody is writing to Santa for a Ben White or Dewsbury-Hall shirt are they?

I think it might be a league problem with player mobility more generally - it's a lot easier and cheaper to sign from abroad. On the plus side the incentive to develop your own academy players is huge now, it's just about making sure they don't have it too easy because you can't get a replacement.
Click to expand...

I didn’t include Stones or Walker as it’s a list of players all signed over the same period of time that our own PL signing list was Maguire, AWB and Mount. Stones and Walker are included in the (7) which is the total number of PL signings in City’s squad currently (vs 3 for us, Maguire, Shaw, Mount)

Apart from the Chelsea SNAFU that’s actually an extremely solid set of signings. How many definite flops on that list? Compare and contrast with players signed from outside the PL and I reckon the hit rate is vastly superior. Which is something that a club with our record of signing flop after flop should probably take into account.
 
Not to do the old "a signing SAF would have made" chesnut but the likes of Rice, Watkins, White, Grealish all seem like the profile of player he would have identified as hard-working and ready to step up to the next level - whether he would have been able to afford them at modern prices is another matter.
 
A combination of factors have led us to move away from singing PL players the last few years. The premium cost that PL clubs ask for their players coupled with a Dutch manager having higher than normal say in our recruitment the last couple of years. Obviously his preference is for a different profile of players.

I know this trend predates ETH but Ole and Jose did buy some PL players, something we have totally moved away from under ETH.

But in general, over the last decade we have signed only a handful of players over who you could have no doubts that they would be a success. In no particular order-


Mata

Di Maria

Shaw

Pogba

Lukaku

Maguire

Bruno

Sancho

Varane

De Ligt

Apart from these everyone else was either unproven, on the decline, or moving from a much weaker league or had doubts about their quality. And for the most part, apart from Di Maria and Sancho all of the names on that list have been some of our better performers. We no longer seem to sign players who you know will be guaranteed successes.

Of course, some of the punts or lesser names should also have done better.

Next year though, we are likely to have at least 3 PL English players available in positions we will need reinforcements for-

Wharton for CM
Branthwaite for CB
Leif Davis for LB.

I understand for the first 2 we'll have to pay a premium but they do seem like genuine quality players and would be solid signings. Let's see if we can get those done.
 
Desert Eagle said:
We also rarely do business with Arsenal and almost never with Liverpool and City which restricts our ability to sign quality players that might be looking for a new challenge.
Click to expand...

The Premier League is filled with quality players even outside the top 6-8 teams, so I don't understand this part of your post.

Ferguson, Branthwaite, Gibbs-White, Mbeumo, Wharton, Guéhi, Eze, Kudus, Paquetá (if he wasn't at risk of getting banned), just to name a few quality players who are all ready to make the move to a top 6 club and might do it in one of the next few transfer windows. And there are probably 20+ more quality players across the bottom 12 clubs who would be useful for the top 6-8 teams.
 
As others have said, it's just too expensive these days.

We spent ~£30 million each on Rooney and Ferdinand, and £15 million on Carrick. That's easily £200 million worth of transfers in today's market.

The list of transfers within the Premier League this season isn't exactly screaming "value for money", especially not when Ipswich have got £20 million to burn on Omari Hutchinson, and Brentford have got £40 million spare for Fabio Carvalho and Sepp van den Berg.
 
I do think there are quite a few players in the PL I'd like to see us go after but it would be astronomical to do so. MGW, Ferguson, Branthwaite, Palmer, Mbeumo and Wharton to name a few.
 
You can't buy players off rich clubs without leverage.

Even Madrid don't try and force clubs into selling them players, because that's how you end up ripped off.

You start the work years in advance. All these players you're interested in, must not sign new contracts or deals at their current clubs. That's the leverage you need. The threat of them walking on a free if you want to sign them for a reasonable fee.
 
Alex99 said:
As others have said, it's just too expensive these days.

We spent ~£30 million each on Rooney and Ferdinand, and £15 million on Carrick. That's easily £200 million worth of transfers in today's market.

The list of transfers within the Premier League this season isn't exactly screaming "value for money", especially not when Ipswich have got £20 million to burn on Omari Hutchinson, and Brentford have got £40 million spare for Fabio Carvalho and Sepp van den Berg.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this I think. Unless players have release clauses or are coming towards the end of their contract, PL layers are just too expensive.

Rooney in todays money would be 100M+, Rio would be similar and Carrick would have been about 60million IMO. It's just not doable on a regular basis these days.
 
Looking at those signings: the two most successful clubs in recent times, City and Liverpool, could function at a similar level without them. Or at least their success by far is tilted towards the signings they made from abroad plus a sprinkle from their academies.

It's also much less viable a model these days with the fees Premier league teams can hold out for.
 
Bayern:

Kane
Olise
Palhinha
Sane
Dier
Gnabry (spent a year at Bremen first)
Musiala (from Chelsea's academy)

Recently they signed Mane too but that didn't work out.

Never thought Bayern would have more players signed from the Premier League than us. It's easier for them than us though, obviously Sane and Mane were un-signable from City/Liverpool. Kane would have been extremely difficult too.

It's hard to get Premier League players but some players have release clauses like Olise or Macalister. Eze has one too I think. I'd rather have had them than feckin antony. We should learn from that and take into account their relative level. Someone like Pepe (Arsenal) or Ndombele(Spurs) looked good in France but were no-where near Premier league level and they still cost a fortune. I'd have more confidence in a player playing for a mid table club like Wharton than I would players who are playing in the Dutch or French league.
 
Rojofiam said:
The Premier League is filled with quality players even outside the top 6-8 teams, so I don't understand this part of your post.

Ferguson, Branthwaite, Gibbs-White, Mbeumo, Wharton, Guéhi, Eze, Kudus, Paquetá (if he wasn't at risk of getting banned), just to name a few quality players who are all ready to make the move to a top 6 club and might do it in one of the next few transfer windows. And there are probably 20+ more quality players across the bottom 12 clubs who would be useful for the top 6-8 teams.
Click to expand...
Fair point, I was just thinking about players with a history of winning. The likes of Jesus and Zinchenko going to arsenal for eg.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Fair point, I was just thinking about players with a history of winning. The likes of Jesus and Zinchenko going to arsenal for eg.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get what you mean by that, even though I think it can be a little bit of an overrated thing to consider. There are plenty of players playing for smaller clubs with an excellent mentality, ready to win things. You just need to assemble the team with mostly excellent mental profiles, and I think it won't be a problem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.