Shohei Ohtani - the most talented athlete ever?

mariachi-19

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Baseball is not a huge thing outside of the States, Japan, Korea and Taiwan but even I who has little appreciation for baseball can see how hes special.

He’s just past the 50/50 (50 home runs and 50 stolen bases) mark in MLB which has never been done in recorded history.

The kicker to all of this is that he’s 100mph pitcher also (although currently recovering) and his stats are seriously impressive in this area.

My list has the likes of Gretzky, Schumacher, Bradman, Phelps, Jordan, Messi (and a few others) on it and he’s surging his way rapidly to that list.

Putting it bluntly, the man is changing the game. In Japan you couldn’t walk a step in the popular areas without being reminded of him, it’s crazy.

Some people are a once in a generation player, he could be a once in a century type of player.
 
Seeing that there’s athletes who’ve won Olympic medals in both the summer and Winter Olympics, lm going to say he’s not the most talented athlete ever.
 
Why is there a clamour to claim a thing you like as the ‘best ever’? Does it make one feel even better about what they’re witnessing?

Comparing within a single sport across eras is closely to impossible so comparing across sports seems plain foolish.

Then you’d also have to get into how to measure atheticism and also whether a sport big only four countries can claim the best ever of anything when it is not played by so much of the world.
 
Pakistani squash player Jahangir Khan went unbeaten for 5 years and 555 matches. I can understand including Ohtani because he's a great hitter and pitcher, something never before seen, but then if you include Schumacher, Jordan etc who were just really dominant in their sport then I would name Jahangir since he was quite literally unbeatable.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Pakistani squash player Jahangir Khan went unbeaten for 5 years and 555 matches. I can understand including Ohtani because he's a great hitter and pitcher, something never before seen, but then if you include Schumacher, Jordan etc who were just really dominant in their sport then I would name Jahangir since he was quite literally unbeatable.
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I don’t think any player who plays a minority sport (like squash or baseball) can ever be in the discussion for best athlete ever. Much easier to dominate a sport with a small talent pool. To be the very best at sports like football, boxing or athletics is on a whole other level.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Baseball is not a huge thing outside of the States, Japan, Korea and Taiwan but even I who has little appreciation for baseball can see how hes special.

He’s just past the 50/50 (50 home runs and 50 stolen bases) mark in MLB which has never been done in recorded history.

The kicker to all of this is that he’s 100mph pitcher also (although currently recovering) and his stats are seriously impressive in this area.

My list has the likes of Gretzky, Schumacher, Bradman, Phelps, Jordan, Messi (and a few others) on it and he’s surging his way rapidly to that list.

Putting it bluntly, the man is changing the game. In Japan you couldn’t walk a step in the popular areas without being reminded of him, it’s crazy.

Some people are a once in a generation player, he could be a once in a century type of player.
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You can't say anyone is the best athlete ever.

You can't say this baseball player is better than Phelps and Schumacher.

One throws a ball and hits it with a bat, one swims and the other drives a car.

Please explain how that works.
 
It’s hard enough to decide who is the best within their own sport, let alone comparing between sports. And I don’t really see the point.
 
RoadTrip said:
It’s hard enough to decide who is the best within their own sport, let alone comparing between sports. And I don’t really see the point.
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This. Even within a sport itself comparisons are normally pointless outside of their respective generations.
 
Baseball is an equipment sport. Nobody playing an equipment sport can be considered the best athlete of all time.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t think any player who plays a minority sport (like squash or baseball) can ever be in the discussion for best athlete ever. Much easier to dominate a sport with a small talent pool. To be the very best at sports like football, boxing or athletics is on a whole other level.
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What about a sport like decathalon? There’s a small talent pool, but they’ve to be included considering how many different events they’re competing in.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Baseball is an equipment sport. Nobody playing an equipment sport can be considered the best athlete of all time.
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Yeah athletics hasn’t existed since the last nudey Olympics.


What a daft comment.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Why is there a clamour to claim a thing you like as the ‘best ever’? Does it make one feel even better about what they’re witnessing?

Comparing within a single sport across eras is closely to impossible so comparing across sports seems plain foolish.

Then you’d also have to get into how to measure atheticism and also whether a sport big only four countries can claim the best ever of anything when it is not played by so much of the world.
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The thing about this geezer is he’s playing in at a time where it’s probably even harder to be good at any individual aspect of a sport let alone being prolific at the two hardest aspects of it which requires two entirely different skill sets. It’s quite remarkable. He’s right now the equivalent of Messi and De Gea in one.
 
mariachi-19 said:
The thing about this geezer is he’s playing in at a time where it’s probably even harder to be good at any individual aspect of a sport let alone being prolific at the two hardest aspects of it which requires two entirely different skill sets. It’s quite remarkable. He’s right now the equivalent of Messi and De Gea in one.
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No he isn’t.

He’s scored like 230 home runs.

This is like someone scoring 200 career goals and then claiming he’s up there with messi.

How is this any different to legendary all rounder cricketers like botham, imran khan or Kallis?
 
His talent is undeniable but there's something about Ohtani I just don't quite like. His media image seems too carefully curated and that thing with his translator getting done for gambling left a lot of questions unanswered.

Controversy seems to surround superstars at the top level and sometimes this verges on conspiracy but I do think MLB and Manfred have vested interests in protecting him for the sake of the sport.

Totally personal opinion of course and I won't deny Ohtani is exceptional in terms of pure ability.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
No he isn’t.

He’s scored like 230 home runs.

This is like someone scoring 200 career goals and then claiming he’s up there with messi.

How is this any different to legendary all rounder cricketers like botham, imran khan or Kallis?
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Not sure how to put this comparison.

But given how Baseball and the MLB works. You could be the equivalent of a 70 batting average and a 30 bowling average and you'd still be told to drop the bowling well before even making the MLB.

Would you still play Botham at 6/7/8 if you had 6 55+ batters and 4 sub 24 bowlers.... unlikely, you'd tell him to improve his bowling to get into the discussion for those positions. Imran or Sobers kind of work, but to put mildly what Ohtani is doing, he's a 55 hitter and a 24 bowler at his peak, if not better.
 
Salt Bailly said:
Who?
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A baseballer who is doing something that even surpasses what happens in manga/anime, if an artist drew a story like this he would be laughed at for creating something unacceptably unrealistic. Got a 10 year 700 million dollar contract, earns 100 million a year in endorsements, second in baseball earns like 6.

Older video describing after his 2021 season when he broke through:


He's the first two way player in baseball since the plumber's era (Babe Ruth), elite hitter and very good (with elite potential) pitcher. Imagine Messi being as good as he is in attacking and at the same time be a top 10 CB/GK in football. It's far more useful in a sport like baseball though as he can do both in one game: pitch when it's his team's turn to defend, hit when it's his team's turn to be at bat.

He's been even better since 2021. At the end of last season he got hit with an injury (his second) that basically did not allow him to pitch for this entire season , guy casually hitting 50+ homeruns and stealing 50+ bases (count is 52/53 with 7 games to spare) in the season he recovers from a tommy john surgery, creating the first 50/50 season in MLB history. This guy has attracted many people who were previously not even aware of this sport to follow his achievements and eventually begin following baseball. With United depressing me, this guy has pulled me into baseball a couple of years ago, a sport I didn't give 2 fecks about for my entire life up to then.

His highlights of the game a couple of days ago when he reached 50/50 (got a curtain call when he hit the 50th, game deliberately momentarily stopped/slowed down to allow him to come out of the dugout for a standing ovation which he got while playing in an away stadium):
 
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You sometimes feel it's a bit too scripted though, to work that Japanese market. How does he end up pitching to his own teammate, only the generational talent before him and teammate at the time in Mike Trout in the WBC and then gets to his 50/50 in the fashion he did?

But then again, elite talents have always had the knack to "script" it for themselves in the big moments.
 
The night he made the 50/50 club, he went…

6 for 6
3 home runs
2 doubles
10 RBI
2 stolen bases

Literally had the best single game at the plate in the history of baseball to create a record that only he holds.

Edit: I also saw that nobody else had ever before combined all those stat lines together in a career & then he does it in 1 night.
 
There was a different 50/50 season achieved in 1995 by Albert Belle - 50 homers, 50 doubles - still the only player to achieve this feat and he did so in a shortened season. He was the first player in 47 years to reach 100 extra base hits in a season, since achieved by five additional players but no one since 2001 (four players did that season). He was also a horrible cnut of a human being.
 
Zen said:
You sometimes feel it's a bit too scripted though, to work that Japanese market. How does he end up pitching to his own teammate, only the generational talent before him and teammate at the time in Mike Trout in the WBC and then gets to his 50/50 in the fashion he did?

But then again, elite talents have always had the knack to "script" it for themselves in the big moments.
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Yep I haven't even touched upon storylines like the Ohtani vs Trout one, he's literally a manga/anime hero come to life, except even manga artists do not dare to draw up a story like this. There is proof too, never been a baseball anime or manga that has a two way player going to the MLB and casually winning MVP's left and right with a little side story of him winning the World Championships against the United States, facing his teammate who is a legendary baseball player himself and strike him out for the win.
 
Carolina Red said:
The night he made the 50/50 club, he went…

6 for 6
3 home runs
2 doubles
10 RBI
2 stolen bases

Literally had the best single game at the plate in the history of baseball to create a record that only he holds.

Edit: I also saw that nobody else had ever before combined all those stat lines together in a career & then he does it in 1 night.
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And he is missing half his skillset this season, as he is recovering from injury that stopped him from pitching this year. Insane.
 
It's difficult to compare athletes across sports, but if he's the greatest baseball player of all time then he's a candidate for the discussion at least.

A combination of these 2 matter:

1. The popularity of the sport in terms of spread (i.e. many different countries and cultures)
2. The popularity of the sport in number of competitors and followers

Initially I wanted to add a 3rd point about how difficult the sport is, but it doesn't really matter. If the competition pool is big enough then it will always be difficult to become the best no matter what.

Baseball has a fairly limited spread. It's a North American sport that is popular in a handful of East Asian countries. The US and Japan are two of the most culturally influential countries in the world, so it makes sense that Ohtani has achieved a larger than life presence. There are people who haven't seen a single game of baseball who knows his name, which tells you a lot. But can the GOAT (?) of a sport with such a limited spread really be called the greatest athlete of all time? I would say no.

I'm obviously biased, but the greatest athlete has to be the greatest footballer of all time. Football has both the biggest spread and the highest number of competitors and followers. Not to mention a long history.
 
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AfonsoAlves said:
No he isn’t.

He’s scored like 230 home runs.

This is like someone scoring 200 career goals and then claiming he’s up there with messi.

How is this any different to legendary all rounder cricketers like botham, imran khan or Kallis?
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The rarity is part of what makes it special. There aren't any two way players in baseball apart from him.

This is like if somebody was Shane Warne with the ball and Viv Richards with the bat in a world where there wasn't even one other all-rounder in international cricket.
 
Respectfully, I don't think anyone from baseball can be considered the most talented athlete ever.
 
Vernon Philander said:
Baseball is the easier version of cricket.

So the answer to the OP is Don Bradman
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Baseball is much harder than it looks and hitting is statistically one of the hardest things to do in any ball sport given the speed the ball moves at, it's flight deviation dependent on pitch and the timing needing to hit it.

https://www.popsci.com/story/science/why-is-hitting-a-baseball-so-hard/

The whole throwing around the bases at speed and with precision is insane. A well executed double play is a thing of beauty, even if it doesn't look like it.
 
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Jeff Wilson deserves a special mentioned - represented the All Blacks at rugby (a hard enough thing to do) and represented New Zealand at cricket. Two completely different sports

Also think he’s the ABs leading try scorer, or at least held the record for a while
 
Vidyoyo said:
Baseball is much harder than it looks and hitting is statistically one of the hardest things to do in any ball sport given the speed the ball moves at, it's flight deviation dependent on pitch and the timing needing to hit it.

https://www.popsci.com/story/science/why-is-hitting-a-baseball-so-hard/

The whole throwing around the bases at speed and with precision is insane. A well executed double play is a thing of beauty, even if it doesn't look like it.
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While I don't think Ohtani is the most talented athlete ever, hell I don't think he can hold that title in his own sport yet, I do think he is excelling at doing the hardest thing in sports: hitting elite level pitching. Amazing player to watch.
 
My personal arbitrary opinion is that no one can be considered the ‘Greatest Athlete’ in a sport where cardio isn’t a heavy, near consistent element. Sports where you spend a large amount of the time standing still don’t cut it. Just fancy darts.
 
Zen said:
Not sure how to put this comparison.

But given how Baseball and the MLB works. You could be the equivalent of a 70 batting average and a 30 bowling average and you'd still be told to drop the bowling well before even making the MLB.

Would you still play Botham at 6/7/8 if you had 6 55+ batters and 4 sub 24 bowlers.... unlikely, you'd tell him to improve his bowling to get into the discussion for those positions. Imran or Sobers kind of work, but to put mildly what Ohtani is doing, he's a 55 hitter and a 24 bowler at his peak, if not better.
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Ian Botham until 1983 had a bowling average of 21.4 with 250 Wickets. It's because he dragged his career about half a decade longer than it should have been.

Likewise, his batting averaged 43 until 1983.

I would 100% play Botham at 7 with those numbers.
 
I don't know he's the best player in baseball ever. Being a top shelf pitcher and batter is a very unique skillset (it's literally only Babe Ruth, I think ?) however I am not sure how much it adds up to compensate, say, Barry Bonds production ? Or elite defense ?

A very special talent nonetheless and probably headed to be an all time great.
 
Mockney said:
My personal arbitrary opinion is that no one can be considered the ‘Greatest Athlete’ in a sport where cardio isn’t a heavy, near consistent element. Sports where you spend a large amount of the time standing still don’t cut it. Just fancy darts.
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Agree with this.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Ian Botham until 1983 had a bowling average of 21.4 with 250 Wickets. It's because he dragged his career about half a decade longer than it should have been.

Likewise, his batting averaged 43 until 1983.

I would 100% play Botham at 7 with those numbers.
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Again, it's kind of a hard one to compare given cricket just allows for a bowler to have full impact on the hitting anyway. But with Baseball, in a comparison, Botham's 43 simply wouldn't cut it, he'd be told to drop it and concentrate on becoming a legendary bowler as the talent is there. When I say 50 and 24 as some kind of comparison example, that's simply the bar to entry... not the pinnacle.

And more to the point, as pointed out, given the sports are different, cricket just allows you to be a 2-way player naturally purely by it's nature. In the same time frame you nailed off multiple absolutely legendary cricket all-rounders, and they all are legendary... Ohtani is on his own doing what he's doing, but I guess you could claim the size of the talent pool for that, and that's fair, I'm not overly debating that, I think it's probably the easiest time to at least attempt it from Baseball's point of view because the depth of talent is lower.
 
There is no such thing as "greatest athlete ever". Too many different variables and metrics to compare across sports.

But Ohtani is probably the greatest baseball player of all time and the equivalent to Messi and Jordan. His only competition is Babe Ruth who did the two way thing 100 years ago. No one would have ever expected a pitcher-hitter of that caliber in the modern game. As someone said, people wouldn't have even written a fictional story of such a player, its so outside what anyone thought possible. He actually makes me want to go see baseball game and usually baseball bores the feck out of me.
 
I'm not sure where this "baseball is a minor sport" notion comes from. It's the second biggest sport in the USA and the national sport of Japan. Two hugely populous and rich countries with top notch athletic development programs

(It's also the national sport of Venezuela and parts of the Carribeans, and very popular in S. Korea)
 
giorno said:
I'm not sure where this "baseball is a minor sport" notion comes from. It's the second biggest sport in the USA and the national sport of Japan. Two hugely populous and rich countries with top notch athletic development programs

(It's also the national sport of Venezuela and parts of the Carribeans, and very popular in S. Korea)
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That makes it a minor sport.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
That makes it a minor sport.
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"Minor" is going too far. There are hundreds of sports and baseball is possibly top 10 in terms of popularity. Definitely top 20.

It lacks spread though. That makes it smaller than most of these: football, tennis, basketball, golf, boxing, MMA, F1, rugby, hockey, volleyball and chess (if it counts).
 
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