Sheep Draft SF2 - Cal? v Edgar/ctp

What do you think the score will be?

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Gio

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TEAM CAL?​

Tactic:

A fluid 4-4-2/4-3-3 that allows everyone to play in their best position. My side will be looking to keep possession and starve any supply to Law, whilst at the same time, my attack is perfectly balanced with Cristiano Ronaldo starting the game on the left but allowed the freedom of the pitch; whilst Beckham will remained disciplined on the right, sending in crossed for Zlatan & Cristiano and tuck into midfield if required.

Defense:
Schmeichel is a arguably the best goalkeeper ever, needs no introduction here.
Vidic one of the best defenders ever in the Premier League and Thuram with over 140 caps for France, World Cup and Euro winner form a formidable partnership that can match up against the best of the best.
The fullbacks G Neville and Irwin probably the best fullbacks to ever in the Premier League era. G Neville in particular has a perfect understanding with Beckham and times his overlapping runs to perfection. Irwin on the other hand was one of the most solid defenders and also very capable of supporting the attack.

Midfield:
Anchoring the midfield will be Busquets who takes up his regular position for Barcelona, a key player in midfield for Barca's tiki taka and dominance of possesion, next to him Guardiola, who was the key man for Barcelona back when they weren't the superclub they are, winning their first ever Champions League and 6 La Liga titles.
Ahead of them, one of the best attacking midfielders of all time in Zidane, and probably the ultimate big game player. On the right, Beckham, the best crosser the world has ever seen and can be disciplined to help in midfield.

Attack:
Cristiano Ronaldo, the best player ever at the 2 biggest clubs in the world, holder of multiple scoring records across all sorts of competitions, and the only player that rivals him is blocked in this draft. :devil:
Ibrahimovic, wherever he goes, he wins, one of the best finishers in modern times, shooting, heading, left foot, right foot, he can do it all.

Sub:
Reus gets to sit around waiting for his turn once the team is in full control of the game.
Carragher gets to sit in the studio to provide commentary on the game.
Lama keeps Reus company...
De Rossi waits for his turn to kill off the game once the team is in control

The opposition and why I'll win:
To put it simply, the better team. The opposition will try to big up the likes of Urruti, Benarrivo and co, but basically, most of his players will struggle to get into my side.
The better keeper, the better defenders, as close as it gets to Barca's tiki-taka midfield, and an attack lead by one of the best players ever, better than his compatriot playing for the opposition. Also most of my players already have a great understanding with each other. Beckham and Neville down the right flank, Busquests and Guardiola come from the same Barca school.

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TEAM EDGAR ALLAN PILLOW / CTP​

Formation: A well balanced 4-2-3-1

Tactics: We have a well balanced team that has no obvious flaws. All players are perfect fit for the role and fully capable world class performers.

Defending:

- Tresor was a stopper and sweeper extraordinaire for both his club and country teams. With excellent man marking skills. great overall ability he was always a threat on goal too. Between him and Luis Pereira they have the power, pace and ability to handle anything my opponent can throw at them.
- Eric Gerets is one of Belgium's all time great player. He's knows for his tenacious all action style and will be perfect in handling Ronaldo here. He has the work rate to deny Ronaldo time and space on the ball. He's ably supported by Neesksens who started his career at Right Back himself and backstopped by the brilliant Tresor. Between Neeskens and Gerets we have the ability to stifle the amount of time Ronaldo has the ball thereby nullifying this threat to a great extent.
- Benarrivo is a excellent attacking fullback. He'll not hesitate to step up to Beckham and try to stop the crossing from the middle. Beckham's lack of pace will be exploited here by Benarrivo's pace and stamina.

Midfield:

Monti - Neeskens is all all action midfield. Monti is known as 'double wide; due to his ability to cover opposition playmakers while defending and he'll be a big part in handling Zidane here. With support from Neeskens they'll be able to stop Zidane from working his magic most of the game.

It is very functional midfield as both Monti and Nesskens have the ability and workrate to cover box to box throughout the match. They are also competent to start attacks when we have the ball. The ability of Socrates and Eusebio to operate deeper in picking up the ball helps in squeezing out spaces whilst defending and making transitions to attack far more easier when we have the ball.

Attack:

A brilliant front line with Sarosi, Dzajic, Eusebio and Socrates all being excellent goal threats. Dzajic's dribbling, Eusebio's pace and ability to take on defenders, Sarosi's all round capability to create and to score plus Socrates's fantastic goal record all speak for themselves.

Benarrivo, Gerets, Monti, Neeskens are all creative and capable of starting attacks form a great base from which my attacking line will thrive.
 
found Cal's write up spot on. I like EAP's side, but Cal's is very well put together.
 
I don't like Pep and Biscuit in the same midfield. Cal was better off with De Rossi instead of Pep. But any 2 are dwarfed Neeskens and Monti.
 
NM said:
found Cal's write up spot on.
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It really is far from perfect. Let me explain a bit..

Gio said:
To put it simply, the better team. The opposition will try to big up the likes of Urruti, Benarrivo and co, but basically, most of his players will struggle to get into my side.
The better keeper, the better defenders, as close as it gets to Barca's tiki-taka midfield, and an attack lead by one of the best players ever, better than his compatriot playing for the opposition. Also most of my players already have a great understanding with each other. Beckham and Neville down the right flank, Busquests and Guardiola come from the same Barca school.
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Better team, how?

Luis Pereira is better than Vidic and I'd gladly take Benarrivo as his style of play offers a a better support to pacey wingers like Ronaldo or Dzajic than Irwin. Irwin is a consistent defender and would be perfect if you had a Nedved/Giggs type player upfront, but with Cristiano/Dzajic type wingers, Benarrivo is a better fit.

Busquets and Guardiola coming from same Barca school has nothing with their ability to play together. Both are DLP type DM's and lack power and pace. It's is a dysfunctional duo where total is lesser than the sum of individual parts. Facing proven midfield monsters like Monti and Neeskens, you have a major disadvantage in the middle. And yes, I'd say not even Zidane will have an easy time against these two. Monti's old school half-back play is designed to take care of opposing playmakers and Neeskens is one of the best all action midfielders. the incredible work rate and productivity will throttle any creativity from your team.

And tiki-taka with Neville and Beckham, seriously? i'd argue that even Zidane and Cristiano are not suited for a tiki-taka style of play. You build the rest of the team around them and let them do their magic. I don't see them as effective in a tiki-taka style team at all. Both your full backs will be awful to support any kind of tiki-taka too. A clear disconnect between strategy and player strengths.
 
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Tactical mistakes by opponent:

- Busquets/Guadriola is a dysfunctional midfield. Both are DLP type players who depend on their passing ability and their skills are pretty much the same and not complimentary to each other. Both lack power and pace and run a midfield together at this level.

- Players not suited for a tiki-taka strategy. Gary Neville and Irwin may be consistent full backs, but totally misfit in a tiki-taka. Neither's offensive skills nor playing style suits his strategy. Same with Beckham, Zidane and Cristiano. All great players individually, but will suffer in a tiki-taka.

- Total lack of pace. From fullbacks to midfield, his team suffers from a lack of pace. He solely depends on passing to move the ball and against tenacious players Monti, Neeskens, Gerets etc it'll be a major disadvantage. Eusebio and Socrates also operate a bit deeper than traditional attacking players and can squeeze out any space opponents midfielders can operate.

My advantages:

Far superior midfield - Monti & Neeskens have the defensive ability to deny Zidane time and space to do his magic. Neeskens also began his career at Right Back and will be perfect to lend a hand to help out Gerets against Cristiano. And then you have Tresor as the final line of defence.

Eusebio vs Vidic - Vidic will find it difficult to handle the blistering pace of Eusebio. Busquets who is shielding Vidic is also not known for his pace and has the same drawback here. With Sarosi to occupy them, I have no doubts eusebio will be on the score sheets more than once.

Dzajic vs Neville - Same lack of pace. Dzajic is a far superior and a tricky dribbler too and I can see him getting the better of Neville multiple times. Thuram needs to be on part time support here all the time.
 
My advantages:

Height, the opposition has 4 defenders and only Luis Pereira is taller than 6 foot at 6'1". Needless to say, with Beckham's crossing and Cristiano & Zlatan's prowess in the air, I would expect a couple of headed goals at least.

Lack of pace, his defenders will all struggle to keep up with Cristiano Ronaldo.

Zidane, he's one of the best players ever and the bigger the stage, the better he plays, he will not be "denied time and space" just because the opposition has midfielders with stamina.
 
Cal? said:
My advantages:

Height, the opposition has 4 defenders and only Luis Pereira is taller than 6 foot at 6'1". Needless to say, with Beckham's crossing and Cristiano & Zlatan's prowess in the air, I would expect a couple of headed goals at least.

Lack of pace, his defenders will all struggle to keep up with Cristiano Ronaldo.

Zidane, he's one of the best players ever and the bigger the stage, the better he plays, he will not be "denied time and space" just because the opposition has midfielders with stamina.
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Come on, that is ridiculous.

Most top all time great CB's are not as tall as Zlatan, but that doesn't take away much from their arial game. Both Pereira and Tresor not exactly short themselves and are perfectly fine here. They do not have any weakness in dealing with on air threats.

Lack of pace? This is absurd. None of Benarrivo, Pereira, Tresor or Gerets (or even Neeskens and Monti) have ever been accused of lack of pace. In fact Benarrivo and Gerets must be the fastest defenders both teams combined.
If any it is your team who suffers from this. Irwin, Neville, Vidic, Busquets, Guardiola, Beckham...none of them ever had pace to stretch my players. You have a static team relying solely on cross/pass to move the ball. Sluggish, imo.

Zidane has always been inconsistent and drift on and off into games. He had a stellar supporting case of deschamps/Vieira/Karambeau to support him...and they played a game which was completely the opposite of what Busquets and Guardiola can provide here. He'd suffocate in the tiki-taka lookalike you are playing here.
 
I've gone for Cal at 3-2, for the sole reason that Schmikes is much better keeper than Urruti.

Both teams are set up pretty much the same. For me it goes man to man for this one.

I think Irwin is better than Benarrivo and Gerets is better than Neville. The CB imo are pretty much a tie for me. I rate Tresor a lot and can't separate them in CB position with Thuram. Luis Pereira is quite highly rated from what I've read but so is Vidic. IMO defence is a tie.

EAP takes the nod in Monti/Neeskens duo compared to Busquets / Guardiola, but Cal? has the better #10 in Zidane. Ronaldo is better than Dzajic while Eusebio is better than Beckham. I also think Ibra > Sarosi.

I reserve the option to change my vote in terms of how this develops as I have 2 issues with Cal's team - the Guardiola/Busquets combo and Ronaldo/Ibra combining together... Otherwise the another plus Cal has in his side is Irwin/Neville/Beckham.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I've gone for Cal at 3-2, for the sole reason that Schmikes is much better keeper than Urruti.

Both teams are set up pretty much the same. For me it goes man to man for this one.

I think Irwin is better than Benarrivo and Gerets is better than Neville. The CB imo are pretty much a tie for me. I rate Tresor a lot and can't separate them in CB position with Thuram. Luis Pereira is quite highly rated from what I've read but so is Vidic. IMO defence is a tie.

EAP takes the nod in Monti/Neeskens duo compared to Busquets / Guardiola, but Cal? has the better #10 in Zidane. Ronaldo is better than Dzajic while Eusebio is better than Beckham. I also think Ibra > Sarosi.

I reserve the option to change my vote in terms of how this develops as I have 2 issues with Cal's team - the Guardiola/Busquets combo and Ronaldo/Ibra combining together... Otherwise the another plus Cal has in his side is Irwin/Neville/Beckham.
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You should consider the strategy played. Most of his players are not suited for a possession based tiki-taka he is playing. None in his team except for Busquets and maybe Guardiola are suitable for a possession based play. Busquets and Guardiola lack pace in the middle. Neville and Irwin lack pace in the flanks. His possession based strategy will never function here. Lack of pace and movement. Zidane and Henry being totally different to Xavi and Iniesta and as you mention Ibra/Cristiano, Absence of players like Vieira, Deschamps or any player with power or pace....who were pivotal to the midfield which Zidane shone in...all these mistakes will add up to a very flawed side.

I would not put it too far away from the same mistake LvG is making at the moment. He has the talent, but with the wrong strategy, I see them playing as lackluster as current United side.
 
All though Cal got better players in certain positions EAP got a functional team who can complement each other.As EAP pointed out I don't relish Pep/Busquets combo in the MF its kind of unidimensional approach. Eap to score the triumpher 2-1.
 
Don't know half the players in EAPs team but can't see how the team Cal has can play tiki taka at all.
 
Gone for EAP. Cal's side is even more dysfunctional than it was last round. Pep and Biscuits - not even Del Bosque would do that.

Cal is an excellent drafter but his players need a better system.
 
I see three advantages for EAP/ctp:
  1. Dzajic against Neville is a mismatch. To Cal's benefit Neville has good support from Beckham ahead and Thuram inside.
  2. Eusebio's pace against Vidic/Irwin.
  3. Legs in midfield. Not hugely so because Socrates won't contribute while Beckham will graft far more than any of the other wide midfielders/attackers on the park.
To Cal's benefit he has:
  1. A significant aerial advantage with the right players to deliver the crosses and set-pieces to exploit it.
  2. A lot of technical quality in midfield that will undoubtedly create chances.
The tiki-taka concerns are over-exaggerated here. The midfield trio will do what they naturally do: Busquets and Guardiola will hold and Zidane will float ahead. The double-pivot of Busquets and Guardiola is an interesting concept, using their deep positioning rather than their running or pressing to hold the midfield. It could work and I don't quite share everybody's else discontent with the system. Zidane meshes well enough there: he's technically good enough and has the vision not to need significant midfield movement to generate success. There remains a critical lack of legs there which may prove its undoing. But it's not automatically a dead duck because it's a bit different to Xaviesta tiki-taka.
 
Gio said:
But it's not automatically a dead duck because it's a bit different to Xaviesta tiki-taka.
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He's selling it as such, though. Closest thing to Barca's tika-taka midfield - those are his own words. So, presumably he expects them to emulate that to a significant degree. And they won't. The rest of the team aren't particularly suited to the style either.

Looks like a salesman's trick more than anything: I'm sporting Biscuits and Pep, ergo I'm pretty much sporting the greatest midfield in recent history - or close enough.

Looks like people don't buy it - and rightly so.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
He's selling it as such, though. Closest thing to Barca's tika-taka midfield - those are his own words. So, presumably he expects them to emulate that to a significant degree. And they won't. The rest of the team aren't particularly suited to the style either.

Looks like a salesman's trick more than anything: I'm sporting Biscuits and Pep, ergo I'm pretty much sporting the greatest midfield in recent history - or close enough.

Looks like people don't buy it - and rightly so.
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Well it's lazy from Cal in that respect. He'd have been better off being clear about why it differs from Barcelona/Spain 2008-2012. Lazy from me as well, I look at the formation picture and usually ignore the salesmanship below it.
 
Cal? said:
Oh well, congrats @Edgar Allan Pillow @ctp
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Thanks Cal. With your attacking midfield, there I was really unsure of my chances till the end. Great game.

Gio said:
Not hugely so because Socrates won't contribute
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Why do you think so? The Brazilian set up where he played had Zico in an attacking role and Socrates bit deeper a la a midfield playmaker rather than a traditional #10. I do expect him to contribute by dropping deeper.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Thanks Cal. With your attacking midfield, there I was really unsure of my chances till the end. Great game.



Why do you think so? The Brazilian set up where he played had Zico in an attacking role and Socrates bit deeper a la a midfield playmaker rather than a traditional #10. I do expect him to contribute by dropping deeper.
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Off the ball rather than on it. Certainly relative to the two monsters next to him.
 
Gio said:
True. But this is Eusebio, one of the most powerful and athletic footballers of all time, in the channel between Vidic and Irwin.
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Undoubtedly, Eusebio is one of the top five players of all time. But in terms of left backs, honestly, I'd have Irwin in that category as well -- certainly of his generation. Only Lizarazu was comparable in that period imo.
 
Also, two technically excellent and intelligent holding midfielders in Busquets and Guardiola -- Zidane to finish off the midfield. Then Ronaldo, Zlatan and Beckham. Two incredibly gifted goal scorers and the best crosser of a ball in the history of the game. That team has goals in abundance with a very solid defence. I actually can't spot a weak link.

Oh, and probably the best (or second best) goalkeeper in the history of the game.
 
Gio said:
True. But this is Eusebio, one of the most powerful and athletic footballers of all time, in the channel between Vidic and Irwin.
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That's true, however as far as being exposed for pace goes, Vidic would be fine as long as he's instructed not to push forward and leave any space behind him. I see no issue with Irwin either, who was excellent positionally and always aware of the opponent's movement.

Vidic gets a lot of flak for that Torres goal, when it was actually a tactical blunder by Sir Alex playing that high line with Vidic as the last defender against an in-his-career-peak-form Torres.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Undoubtedly, Eusebio is one of the top five players of all time. But in terms of left backs, honestly, I'd have Irwin in that category as well -- certainly of his generation. Only Lizarazu was comparable in that period imo.
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Irwin was not slow, but he wasn't pacey either, as compared to say Evra or Cole. He relied more on positioning rather than pace. A consistent performer, but against someone as fast as Eusebio and who operates in the channel between him and Vidic, I can definitely expect to see results.

Top 5 of his generation, maybe. Of all time, no way!
 
1990s left-backs?

Well there's Paulo Maldini, Roberto Carlos, Bixente Lizarazu who stand out. Let's rule out Andreas Brehme for being too old. Then you drop a tier and you've got a load of very solid Italians who were strong on both flanks - Antonio Benarrivo, Gianluca Pessotto, Moreno Torricielli, Christian Panucci - as well as a few others more noted for their offerings going forward - Branco, Sergi, Christian Ziege, Graeme Le Saux. Alongside them there are a few centre-halves-cum-full-backs who were normally very imposing - Paulo Montero, Marc Luliano, Frank de Boer, Stuart Pearce.

Where does Irwin sit in amongst all them? Somewhere in but probably at the upper end of that large second tier.
 
I really rate Irwin but my issue with Cal's side was how Biscuits and Pep would work together. The only option I think would be to have Zidane really quite deep otherwise there could well be a big gap between them which limits Zizou. At least for Spain Xavi in front of Biscuits and Alonso made more sense.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
A consistent performer, but
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Tired of this. Either come up with some evidence that he was regularly beaten for pace or trickery or give him some respect. The man won leagues and Champions leagues with a young swashbuckling Giggsy in front of him for a long period of it without having anyone remember any clear poor games while playing against plenty of top players, yet would never receive the credit he deserves. Yes, he played for a nation that had no hope of doing much internationally, so you don't have him scoring WC winning penalties, but that's all there is. He wasn't just consistent, but someone who stood up when it mattered. He hit the post twice against Juve in 99, for a left back, in a game of that magnitude and tension, he didn't go hiding, or get skinned, instead he almost sent us through to the final. He's the best left-back the most successful club in England has had, and one of the most positionally aware and tactically intelligent defenders I have known about, with immaculate technique, the passing range of a deep lying playmaker and the thought process of a metronome. Eusebio's a beast, and I can still understand if you consider Vidic as someone who won't be able to keep him out for 90 minutes, which also makes more sense as Eusebio won't be hugging the touchline, rather running towards goal, but it's just plain old revisionism to call Irwin a definite source of error here, sorry.

@Gio : Irwin absolutely belongs in that top tier of 90s fullbacks, which doesn't include Maldini coz he gets a tier of his own, but next to Bobby Carlos and the Lizard? Without a doubt.
 
I know it's sacrilege on this forum with its United-Irish contingent to question Irwin's standing and nor do I like to do so because I really rate the player and like the man. That said, Carlos was an extraordinary flank dominator, single-handedly manning the left side for Real for years at the very top level. His weakness was that he was occasionally a little rash defensively (the failed overhead kick against Denmark in the France '98 QF; the red card in El Classico). But in any one-on-one situation he was fiercely strong, dynamic with a crucially low centre of gravity. Neither pace nor nimbleness was likely to get the better of him. For Real he was effectively two players: a left-back and a left-winger rolled into one. And that was before teams routinely had 70% of the ball and full-backs could spend most of their 90 minutes in the attacking third. His overall contribution and influence on both Real and Brazil is what separates him from the classy if more understated types.
 
Aldo said:
Tired of this
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I never said he had a weakness against pace. There were 2 different points being discussed (1) Irwin's pace and it's my opinion that he was not as fast as Evra or Cole and (2) Eusebio being better player and would have results as he operates in between Irwin and Vidic.

And as for the other half, I do differentiate between competent defenders vs fullbacks who can man the flank on their own. Irwin is former whilst Lizarazu, Carlos are later. It depends on strategy and as I said in an earlier post, if I had Giggs/Nedved type wingers, I'd go for Irwin and if I had Dzajic/Ronaldo type or if I was playing a diamond, I'd go for Carlos/Lizarazu etc. Not a weakness, but a better tactical fit.
 
Aldo said:
Tired of this. Either come up with some evidence that he was regularly beaten for pace or trickery or give him some respect. The man won leagues and Champions leagues with a young swashbuckling Giggsy in front of him for a long period of it without having anyone remember any clear poor games while playing against plenty of top players, yet would never receive the credit he deserves. Yes, he played for a nation that had no hope of doing much internationally, so you don't have him scoring WC winning penalties, but that's all there is. He wasn't just consistent, but someone who stood up when it mattered. He hit the post twice against Juve in 99, for a left back, in a game of that magnitude and tension, he didn't go hiding, or get skinned, instead he almost sent us through to the final. He's the best left-back the most successful club in England has had, and one of the most positionally aware and tactically intelligent defenders I have known about, with immaculate technique, the passing range of a deep lying playmaker and the thought process of a metronome. Eusebio's a beast, and I can still understand if you consider Vidic as someone who won't be able to keep him out for 90 minutes, which also makes more sense as Eusebio won't be hugging the touchline, rather running towards goal, but it's just plain old revisionism to call Irwin a definite source of error here, sorry.
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Great post.
 
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