Sheep Draft R1 - The Stain v Isotope

What do you think the score will be?

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Gio

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TEAM THE STAIN​

4-3-3 possession/counter-pressing; with heavy focus on attacking down the left flank.

We will press high up the field in banks of 3. Wing backs pushed high up to help their wingers with pressing. Both excellent over-lappers. Stoichkov and Iniesta will move around, having the freedom to find space. We will overload the left flank. Rossi will mainly press, lurk around the box, sniffing out opportunities. Any team with Xavi/Iniesta will control possession. Townsends job is to stay back and slot in to a back 3 when we attack. The central defenders taking up wider positions. Highly creative team with incredible pace on both wings which will cause trouble.

Info on my sheep:

I actually think the committee gave me decent sheep, starting with:

Gonzalo Jara

Versatile defender who plays centre back, right back or defensive mid. 85 caps for Chile. Most will remember him from WBA. Currently plays for Mainz. Won Copa America 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Jara

Andy Townsend

Hard-working midfielder. Irish international with 70 caps. Played all games at the WC 90' where Ireland only conceded 3 goals. Also played in the WC 94'. Irish player of the year 95'. Had a solid career that included playing for Soton, Villa & Chelsea to name a few.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Townsend

Keith Gillespie

Utd product with 86 caps for NIR. Key member of the NUFC "entertainers"and helped them to 2nd place of the PL; both 95/96 & 96/97.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Gillespie

Lesser knowns (not sheep):

Eurico Gomes

First player to have played for all top 3 teams in Portugal. In other words; a massive wanker. Solid defender with 38 caps for his country. Won 6 league titles, the CL with Porto 87' & helped Portugal to 3rd at the EURO 84'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurico_Gomes

George Cohen

One of the, if not the, best english right back ever. Alf Ramsey called him the best ever english rb and George Best called him "the best right back i have ever played against". One-club-man spent his entire career at Fulham. World Cup winner 66'.

Highly recommended read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cohen

THE-A-TEAM-formation-tactics.png


TEAM ISOTOPE​

THE TEAM

I will play an altered 4-3-1-2 formation.

The back four comprises of Branco, Sami Hyypiä, Alessandro Nesta, and Márcio Santos; with William Foulke as goalkeeper. In his eleven season as goalkeeper of Division 1 (equivalent to Premier League) team, the Fat Foulke led his team to three FA Cup finals (winning two).The unknown M. Santos was a member of the Brazilian NT that won the 1994 FIFA World Cup, and was named to the Team of the Tournament for his performances. He also took part at two Copa América tournaments, reaching the final in 1991, and winning the tournament in 1997.

Branco played for Brazil NT for 72 times (scored 9 goals), and won the 1994 FIFA World Cup and 1989 Copa America. Hyppia was in the UEFA Team of the Year in 2001, and PFA Team of the year for 2 years. Marshalling the defence is Nesta, who can be considered as one of the best CB the world has seen after the retirement of Franco Baresi.

In midfield, the duo of Sergio Busquets and Dunga would shield the defence, while still provide ball possession and link to attack. The hardworking and tactical intelligent Zvonimir Boban will move from wing to behind the forwards. (Vascinating video of Boban terrorizing Arsenal with speed and skill on European Super Cup 1995).



Marco van Basten will spearhead the team attack. Named 3 times UEFA Best Player of the Year, van Basten has scored 276 goals in 373 games in his career. Partnering him are Omar Sivori and Fritz Walter. 1961 Ballon d’or winner Sivori was the Argentinean inside-forward who inspired Juventus in their domination of Italian football in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Sivori’s vision, passing skill, and dribbling skill dubbed him as the Maradona of the sixties. Adding to those abilities, he scored 135 goals in 215 games for Juventus.



Fritz Walter has an astonishing goalscoring record. Played his whole career as an inside forward or attacking midfielder for Kaiserslautern, he scored 380 goals in 411 games. He captained West Germany to win their first World Cup in 1954. Among their other great players, German Football Association (DFB) chose him as German most outstanding player from the past 50 years in 2003.

GDR-HUN_1954-FIN-CM.svg


TACTIC

The team main attack will be from the left side and center of my team. Branco would bombard forward, to support the trickery Sivori. To balance the team, the right side would be less attacking, with Santos primary duty is to stay behind.

Protecting the defence while circulating the ball are Busquets and Dunga main duties. Dunga’s tenacity and leadership, and Busquets’ passing intelligent would complement Boban to dominate the midfield battle. With Sivori and Boban capable of exchanging in every attacking position, they and Walter provide creativity and opportunities for van Basten to finish the move.
 
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That's a tough matchup. The Stain has a lovely left flank and Xavi/Iniesta combo as well as Rossi leading the line.

I feel however Isotope have a bit of a upper hand in this. Nesta-- Dunga/Busquets - Walter-Van basten is a great core.

For sure there are goals in this game. I feel it's 3-2 for Isotope, although with the disadvantage of the sheep keeper.
 
Seriously though, this will clearly be a high-scoring affair. My team will own possession and push opposition back. Not sure how well set-up they are on the counter with mainly centrally focused players. His fullbacks will have hell from my winger/wingback-combos. He lacks support from the wings in defence. It'll force Dunga/Busquets out wide; leaving plenty of room for Xavi/Iniesta to work in.

My left flank mainly will cause absolute mayhem.
 
Townsend's probably a decent foil for Xaviesta. Okay he's no Busquets, but he's a decent enough water carrier to do the right things and sit in when Bobby Carlos careers down the left flank. As long as he focuses on carrying water and not the ball, and leaves his tactics truck pitchside rather than in the centre circle.

Bp9Jw6TCcAEoKnF.png
 
The Stain has wonderful midfield duo in Xavi and Iniesta. His Gk, fullbacks and Stoichkov are all GOAT players. Although I don't rate his striker, DM, and centerback duo.

There will be goals in this game. It's hard to see who could win this. But The Stain has to attack, because of the type of players he has on midfield and defence are not suited to other tactic.

With a superior defensive unit, my team is capable on soaking up pressure. And by looking at my attack goalscoring record, it is inevitable that they'll score few goals.
 
as much as i like @Isotope front three i dont like his midfield....think Buske and Dunga are an awful pair and i dont like Boban's role here. Massive fan of the gk though :drool:
 
Isotope said:
His Gk, fullbacks and Stoichkov are all GOAT players
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Literally no one of them are greatest of all time in their positions. De Gea has potential, Stoichkov and Carlos has incredibly tough competition here and Cohen? Come on
 
Love that set up from The Stain, nicely hide his sheep as well. The only problem is I don't see enough goalscoring threat from his team against Nesta and Hypia, esp when Foulke has bodily picked up Rossi and thrown in the net. On the other hand I think Isotope's attack pretty easily overwhelm opposing defense, even if they lose the possession battle.
 
Tuppet said:
Love that set up from The Stain, nicely hide his sheep as well. The only problem is I don't see enough goalscoring threat from his team against Nesta and Hypia, esp when Foulke has bodily picked up Rossi and thrown in the net. On the other hand I think Isotope's attack pretty easily overwhelm opposing defense, even if they lose the possession battle.
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Pretty much all our attacks will come down the left, Nesta is on the other side. You can't see a goal coming from the left? RC/Iniesta/Stoichkov against Busquets/Hyypia/Marcio Santos. Not as simple as that but you know what i mean. I wouldn't be surprised if all the defensive attention from oppo leaves a few opportunities coming Gillespies way.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
he might played there before but that doesnt mean i have to like it :angel:
from what i remember Savicevic and Donadoni were on the wings that game but i might be wrong as its been a while since i watched that game....
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Yeah. I was thinking that it should be Donadoni on the right, and Boban on left. But you just can't argue with Wiki!
Anyway, when you see people don't mind to have Nedved on the wing, I think Boban could do good job in there too.
 
I've just instructed Townsend to try and break van Basten's legs. Go to do what you gotta do.
 
harms said:
Literally no one of them are greatest of all time in their positions. De Gea has potential, Stoichkov and Carlos has incredibly tough competition here and Cohen? Come on
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Yeah, maybe one of the best in their positions is a better term.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
as much as i like @Isotope front three i dont like his midfield....think Buske and Dunga are an awful pair and i dont like Boban's role here. Massive fan of the gk though :drool:
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Well Boban is no winger for sure. But he's quite adept at that sort of RCM-type role where he can use his impeccable delivery to hit Van Basten, while at the same time tucking in to form a tight midfield three. That's how I remember him playing the same wide midfield role at Milan.
 
Seriously with all the talk of rating GKs and such, voting for a sheep goalkeeper is just a big no no. I know it's a bit harsh on Isotope, but the disadvantage of a sheep keeper is near insurmountable. Any other positions you can cover with other players and a strategy but a GK is unique.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Seriously with all the talk of rating GKs and such, voting for a sheep goalkeeper is just a big no no. I know it's a bit harsh on Isotope, but the disadvantage of a sheep keeper is near insurmountable. Any other positions you can cover with other players and a strategy but a GK is unique.
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Yeah, after all the talk about needing to weigh the keepers' status differently, I don't think we should take this lightly (harrharr).

Seriously, though: It has to depend on the opposition for me. What's the sheep situation of the opposition? What sort of attackers does the opposition sport? What's the general strength of the defence in front of the sheep keeper?

In short, it can't be as simple as voting against the sheeper regardless.

On top of this, Foulke poses an interest problem as such: What we have here is a clear case of an era's obvious weaknesses being exposed. Foulke wasn't a terrible keeper at all in his own day in terms of status and accomplishments. Does that count in his favour at all? Or do we simply conclude that the general standard of keepers was horrible? The idea of a grossly overweight bruiser being an actually plausible - not to say quite competent - keeper in his day and age, has all sorts of implications.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The idea of a grossly overweight bruiser being an actually plausible - not to say quite competent - keeper in his day and age, has all sorts of implications.
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He still is a Sheep. By definition he should be given lesser consideration than any other normal keeper. Make it the Djemba of keepers to put it brutally. I once lost a match for sporting Shay Given. This should ideally be rated a far worse keeper even in a comparable modern era. A defensive error can be covered with a good GK but a keeping lapse?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He still is a Sheep. By definition he should be given lesser consideration than any other normal keeper.
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Clearly so - anything else would be very unfair on the other manager. But then again, it would be unfair on Isotope not to consider The Stain's sheep as...sheep. He makes a case for them in his write-up, claiming they're actually pretty good - and I don't disagree with that, as such. They're not horrible as sheep go. But they're still sheep - they're in his team because he failed to draft non-sheep.

It seems a bit random, all things said and done, to put a degree of emphasis on the sheeper which automatically makes having one significantly more detrimental than fielding TWO sheep as outside players.

To put it brutally simple: If fielding a sheeper equals an automatic loss against practically any opponent (who isn't fielding a sheeper himself), then we should probably consider not handing out sheepers in the first place.

A sheep should be considered an obvious weakness in a sheep draft. And I agree, in principle, that fielding a sheeper is more dramatic than fielding some no-mark in a position where his influence will be minimal - but over emphasizing the detrimental effect of the sheeper is nevertheless problematic. It could lead to a "game over" effect whenever someone ends up with a sheeper. And then the point in having them in the first place becomes questionable.
 
RedTiger said:
this is the main thing I took from the formation and the reason why I think his midfield will dominate Townsend and Xaviesta.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He still is a Sheep. By definition he should be given lesser consideration than any other normal keeper. Make it the Djemba of keepers to put it brutally. I once lost a match for sporting Shay Given. This should ideally be rated a far worse keeper even in a comparable modern era. A defensive error can be covered with a good GK but a keeping lapse?
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I've based my vote on Isotope's midfield and forwards, but I totally understand where you're coming from, I lost a match last year because i had a sheep goalkeeper even though the rest of my team was good.
Its a difficult one, as chesterlestreet said, do you take a players reputation at a point in history as set for ever? I don't know.
 
RedTiger said:
Its a difficult one, as chesterlestreet said...
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Aye, I'm of the opinion that several factors make this quite complicated in this particular match.

What we're looking at is a sheeper - no question about it: That's what he is and that's what he should be considered as. The era is what it is, and we may debate that on general terms, but the fact is nevertheless that he is a designated sheep in an all-time draft. The Stain can rightfully claim that he's a clear weak point.

But what we also need to be looking at is how well protected The Stain's own goal is. He is fielding a decidedly underwhelming pair of CBs, one of whom is a sheep. And another sheep is shielding this pair in the role of a DM.

In a purely defensive sense, Isotope's back four is considerably stronger - there's no contest, in fact. Marcio Santos as a right back is anything but final worthy, but he is at least defensively sound.

To sum it up, I guess one could say that it's debatable how well The Stain has managed to hide his sheep: They both have important roles to play defensively here - and they're up against a couple of Ballon winners, and a generally very strong attack.
 
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Found this story of Foulke. Two times Sheffield came 2nd in the league, with him as Gk. And he wasn't THAT fat at the beginning.
source: http://spartacus-educational.com/SHEFFUfoulke.htm

SHEFFUfoulke9.jpg

William Foulke in 1894

William "Fatty" Foulke was born in Dawley, Shropshire, on 12th April 1874. After leaving school he found work in the Blackwell Colliery. A talented sportsman, Foulke played in goal for the works team.

On 20th December, 1893, the Derby Daily Telegraph reported: "The feature of the game was the goalkeeping of W. Foukes (sic) of Blackwell, who certainly has the making of a first-class custodian."

The following season Foulke was sold to Sheffield United for £20 and made his debut for his new club against West Bromwich Albion on 1st September, 1894. Foulke played 29 out of 30 Football League games in his first season at the club. In doing so, he kept the brilliant Arthur Wharton out of the first-team. He only missed three first team games over the next four years. On 2nd December, 1895, Scottish Sport reported: "In Foulke, Sheffield United have a goalkeeper who will take a lot of beating. He is one of those lengthy individuals who can take a seat on the crossbar whenever he chooses, and shows little of the awkwardness usually characteristic of big men."

In the 1896-97 season Sheffield United were runners-up behind the double-winning Aston Villa. Foulke had conceded just 29 goals throughout the campaign and the club had easily the best defensive record in the Football League. In the home game against the champions, Foulke caused a stir by bouncing the ball as far as the halfway line. This was within the rules at the time, but as players were able to barge into other players when they had the ball, goalkeepers saw that tactic as very risky. However, Foulke was fairly confident that he would be able to regain possession of the ball. C. B. Fry, the famous cricketer, who also played football for Southampton, remarked: "Foulke is no small part of a mountain. You cannot bundle him."

Foulke won his first international cap against Wales on 29th March 1897. Although England won 4-0, surprisingly, it was the only time he played for his country. At that time John Robinson was the regular England goalkeeper. Foulke was known to be unpopular with the Football Association. As the Sheffield Daily Telegraph pointed out: "It is a pity that Foulke cannot curb the habit of pulling down the crossbar, which on Saturday ended in his breaking it in two. On form, he is well in the running for international honours, but the Selection Committee are sure to prefer a man who plays the game to one who unnecessarily violates the spirit of the rules."

In 1895 Foulke only weighed 12st 10lb but over the next few years he put on a lot of weight and was nicknamed "Fatty" or "Colossus" by the fans. He once said: "I don't mind what they call me as long as they don't call me late for my lunch." One journalist wrote that: "His ponderous girth brings no inconvenience and the manner in which he gets down to low shots explodes any idea that a superfluity of flesh is a handicap."

Sheffield United, led by Ernest Needham, won the First Division championship of the Football League in the 1897-1898 season. Foulke only missed one game and the team had the best defensive record in the league and one journalist described Foulke as the "greatest goalkeeper in the world". In a game against Liverpool in November, 1898, George Allan tried to intimidate Foulke. The Liverpool Post reported that "Allan charged Foulke in the goalmouth, and the big man, losing his temper, seized him by the leg and turned him upside down."

Sheffield United struggled the following year in the league but the team beat Derby County in the 1899 FA Cup Final. Foulke's form remained good. J. A. H. Catton, who was the editor of the Athletic News, commented: "His kicking from goal was as mighty as ever, and his good right hand, doubled up, banged out incoming shots with the force of a sledgehammer."

Foulke was in great form in the 1899-1900 season and once again Sheffield United had the best defensive record in the league. The club finished in second place to Aston Villa.

The following season Foulke was a member of the Sheffield United team that reached the 1901 FA Cup Final against Tottenham Hotspur.
 
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At that time Foulke was there (1894-1905), Sheffield United was one of the top flight team. From Wiki:

Undoubtedly (Sheffield) United's heyday was the 30-year period from 1895–1925, when they were champions of England in 1897–98 and runners up in 1896–97 and 1899–1900, and FA Cup winners in 1899, 1902, 1915 and 1925, finishing runners up in 1901...
 
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So, can we agree that projected into recent league, he's at least on the Joe Hart & Jens Lehmann level? :). Not on Yashin or Maier level, but definitely above Shay Given.
 
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Isotope said:
So, can we agree that projected into recent league, he's at least on the Joe Hart & Jens Lehmann level? :). Not on Yashin or Maier level, but definitely above Shay Given.
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He's a very interesting player in the sense that he - as suggested above - highlights certain differences between the eras: He was a good keeper in an era that put very little emphasis on athleticism for keepers (this is made comically obvious by his bulk in later years, when he was still able to play at the highest level).

Now, what made it possible for someone like him to function as a goal keeper? Different expectations, for one thing: A keeper wasn't expected to jump like a tiger and make outrageous saves. The general tempo and flow of matches, for another: Compared to a modern era top match, they played in slow motion. You didn't need cat like reflexes in order to pull off saves, even from what was then considered excellent attacking (and attackers). Attacking play was generally more static and predictable too - tended to follow set patterns to a greater extent than what became the norm by and by.

But all of the above is - simply - traits of the era. None of it makes Foulke a particularly suspect player in his own time and context. Athleticism? Stick the best player in the world anno 1900 in any modern professional side (as far down the divisions as you please), and he'd be utterly out of his depth. Tempo? Same thing. No way in hell he'd be anything but extremely slow and ponderous in a modern setting. But this is, essentially, the Jesse Owen argument: There is no doubt whatsoever that he'd be humiliated by bog standard sprinters if he was magically transported onto a modern track.

So, what you have to do is to consider him within his own time and context - and somehow try to translate his level and his talent into modern terms. Same has to apply to the best player in the world anno 1900. And with him, this is possible: He's still a footballer, he still relies mainly on his innate footballing ability - THAT is what makes him stand out. The athleticism, the speed, the preferred tactical approaches of the day...these are historical trimmings, if you will. Magically suck that innate ability out of him, and transfer it to someone born in 1970, or 1990 - and what do you get?

And I suppose the same has to apply to our man Foulke too. He must have had something we can recognize as goal keeping skills - which were something beyond him being a big, strong (and increasingly fat) bloke. But it's clearly harder with him, given that it's pretty much non-debatable that the keeper's status as such was dramatically different from what it was to become. Much more so than any comparable outfield position.
 
Gio said:
Well Boban is no winger for sure. But he's quite adept at that sort of RCM-type role where he can use his impeccable delivery to hit Van Basten, while at the same time tucking in to form a tight midfield three. That's how I remember him playing the same wide midfield role at Milan.
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Aye, Boban's a good fit in that RCM-ish role with the right support, although an out of position Marcio Santos definitely doesn't provide the requisite width and technical quality on that wing for me. That said, Sivori/Van Basten/Walter will create enough against The Stain's porous central defence to win the game for Isotope imo.
 
Gio said:
Well Boban is no winger for sure. But he's quite adept at that sort of RCM-type role where he can use his impeccable delivery to hit Van Basten, while at the same time tucking in to form a tight midfield three. That's how I remember him playing the same wide midfield role at Milan.
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RedTiger said:
this is the main thing I took from the formation and the reason why I think his midfield will dominate Townsend and Xaviesta.
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Isotope said: said:
The hardworking and tactical intelligent Zvonimir Boban will move from wing to behind the forwards.
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No mention of him playing there in Isotope's write-up.
 
Akshay said:
Voted for @The Stain because I always do. Hope he doesn't mind this time ;).
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:lol:

Although, you got the result wrong :wenger:

Doesn't matter, though. I've lost this and to be honest; if i were a neutral i'd vote 3-2 Isotope. Despite him having a sheeper. With having such attacking wingbacks i needed a much stronger back 3 to make it work and unfortunately mine is made up of 2 sheep and a good, but unknown cb.

I will get a few goals but my central 3 will let me down and i'll concede more than i'll score.

Congrats @Isotope and much luck going forward :)
 
Chesterlestreet said:
He's a very interesting player in the sense that he - as suggested above - highlights certain differences between the eras: He was a good keeper in an era that put very little emphasis on athleticism for keepers (this is made comically obvious by his bulk in later years, when he was still able to play at the highest level).

Now, what made it possible for someone like him to function as a goal keeper? Different expectations, for one thing: A keeper wasn't expected to jump like a tiger and make outrageous saves. The general tempo and flow of matches, for another: Compared to a modern era top match, they played in slow motion. You didn't need cat like reflexes in order to pull off saves, even from what was then considered excellent attacking (and attackers). Attacking play was generally more static and predictable too - tended to follow set patterns to a greater extent than what became the norm by and by.

But all of the above is - simply - traits of the era. None of it makes Foulke a particularly suspect player in his own time and context. Athleticism? Stick the best player in the world anno 1900 in any modern professional side (as far down the divisions as you please), and he'd be utterly out of his depth. Tempo? Same thing. No way in hell he'd be anything but extremely slow and ponderous in a modern setting. But this is, essentially, the Jesse Owen argument: There is no doubt whatsoever that he'd be humiliated by bog standard sprinters if he was magically transported onto a modern track.

So, what you have to do is to consider him within his own time and context - and somehow try to translate his level and his talent into modern terms. Same has to apply to the best player in the world anno 1900. And with him, this is possible: He's still a footballer, he still relies mainly on his innate footballing ability - THAT is what makes him stand out. The athleticism, the speed, the preferred tactical approaches of the day...these are historical trimmings, if you will. Magically suck that innate ability out of him, and transfer it to someone born in 1970, or 1990 - and what do you get?

And I suppose the same has to apply to our man Foulke too. He must have had something we can recognize as goal keeping skills - which were something beyond him being a big, strong (and increasingly fat) bloke. But it's clearly harder with him, given that it's pretty much non-debatable that the keeper's status as such was dramatically different from what it was to become. Much more so than any comparable outfield position.
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That's an elephant on the past vs recent players. Although most past GOATs would still be adept and become GOAT in recent era, but like you said, other levels are susceptible not.

The amount of drugs, strict diet, and emphasized on athleticism in our era, would make most good players in the past could struggle right now. Not to mention the expected role of players, and tactic and rules.
 
The Stain said:
:lol:

Although, you got the result wrong :wenger:

Doesn't matter, though. I've lost this and to be honest; if i were a neutral i'd vote 3-2 Isotope. Despite him having a sheeper. With having such attacking wingbacks i needed a much stronger back 3 to make it work and unfortunately mine is made up of 2 sheep and a good, but unknown cb.

I will get a few goals but my central 3 will let me down and i'll concede more than i'll score.

Congrats @Isotope and much luck going forward :)
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Heiyoo, thanks The Stain. I thought yours would be the team to beat. You've started really strong in the Draft, by getting Stoickhov, Xavi, and Carlos early.

I'm still pissed that I was your vote away in the 3rd round to get a hand on Gerd Muller, though. And was it Santamaria also?
 
Isotope said:
Heiyoo, thanks The Stain. I thought yours would be the team to beat. You've started really strong in the Draft, by getting Stoickhov, Xavi, and Carlos early.

I'm still pissed that I was your vote away in the 3rd round to get a hand on Gerd Muller, though. And was it Santamaria also?
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It was looking rosy then all went downhill at round 5 and forward hehe. Sheep drafting, eh? Ye, those 2 players. In that round we both went for Müller 1 person blocked me every round haha. Then i basically picked 2 sheep for myself in the last round (ye, Rossi wasn't all that).

I quickly realized you shouldn't have set tactics in a sheep draft but i already had Xavi and it was too late. I will try to draft with the same tactics in mind in another draft. Preferably with a false 9 to get a compact team that presses as a unit (in 3's) and can play fluid footy. If you have the players for it you only really need 3 solid defensive players as opposition will be busy defending for a big portion of a game. I will also try very defensive counter-attacking tactics at some point.
 
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