Sheep Draft QF: Invictus/KM v Stobzilla

With all players at their peak which team would win?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Gio

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TEAM INVICTUS/KM​

Starting XI


DEFENSE

Ronnie Hellström forms the last line of defense. A very agile shootsopper, and a commanding presence in the box, he was voted European Goalkeeper of the Year 4 times in the 1970s, and will help nullify the threat of the opposition's forwards.

French legend Marius Trésor is the cornerstone of the defense. A very complete defender, he will help piece the defense together. On his left hand side isJürgen Kurbjuhn, a very good marker who offers the versatility to play at both left centerback and leftback positions.

The duo are flanked by arguably the greatest Spanish fullback of all time - José Camacho, who was a very complete defender - exceptional at both offensive and defensive phases of the game. And FC Basel legend Scott Chipperfield who was renowned for his relentless work ethic.


MIDFIELD

Ahead of them is a trio anchored by Uruguay and Peñarol icon, Néstor Gonçalvez - an excellent man marker and a central defensive monster, who was also good at playing simple passes to his more offensive team-mates.

And Nils Liedholm was no slouch defensively either. One of the most complete midfielders ever - he could play behind the striker, as an attacking midfielder, and as a central midfielder. And he is renowned for his workrate and team-ethic, to go with exceptional, pin point and expansive passing range. He is ideal for the deep lying playmaker role who will also contribute defensively.

Then there's the Golden Boy of Italian football - Ballon D'Or winner Gianni Rivera - one of the greatest creative playmakers of all time who will help control the tempo of the game and has the license to carry the ball forward from deeper areas - he will find a lot of joy as the finisher and builder of attacking moves in the final third.


FORWARDS

On the right flank we have Hungarian legend Ferenc Bene, a superlative goalscorer from wider areas who scored 300+ clubs goals, apart from being Euro top scorer, World Cup top scorer for Hungary, and Olympics top scorer - he will help supplement the goalscoring threat of our #9.

At his peak of his game (late 90s-very early 2000s), Christian Vieri was arguably the best target striker in football who blended sensational goalcoring ability with imposing physicality. He is the ideal front man for our setup.

To complete the trio, we have arguably the greatest left winger of all time after George Best - Francisco Gento - The Storm of the Cantabrian. A devastating winger, his speed is matched by few in the history of the game and he will challenge his marker time and again with the intention to cross to Vieri or score himself.

Defensive Line : Normal


1. We're not going to undermine the voters' intelligence by suggesting that our team is perfect - far from it, because doing so would be a disservice to the community. And by now, we don't really believe in selling players by resorting to BS arguments. Scott Chipperfield is a sheep, and our defense is probably not the greatest for this stage of the competition - which is a bit of a shame in hindsight because we made a genuine, conscious effort to build from the back throughout the draft, even in the reinforcement round. C'est la vie. But we believe we're putting him in a position where he can do the least amount of damage to our chances. Because Gento could dominate an entire flank by himself without needing a lot of help, which can ease Chipperfield's workload a tad.

2) With outrageous creative talents such as Rivera, Liedholm, Gento, and to a certain extent Bene - spearheaded by Vieri in his prime , it would be hard for any defense to keep them quiet. Vieri as the focal point means there is a clinical finisher/ battering ram at the end of the chances created, and it also manages to enhance the already impressive goalscoring nature of his fellow forwards. The Vieri-Gento-Bene-Rivera could be devastating with clear cut goal routes and linkup possibilities for each.

3) The Rivera-Liedholm-Gonçalvez partnership is is incredible in terms of balance. All of them are among the crème de la crème their position (and playing in their best roles) - and our entire front 6 has very defined tasks with little to no overlap - Vieri the target striker, Gento the wing wizard, Bene the goalscoring wide forward, Rivera the prime mover from midfield, Liedholm the architect, and Gonçalvez the destroyer who will help marshal that player (not stop him, because no one can - but try to limit his influence). We might not have an obvious, eyecatching *** dere GOAT type player, but the pieces are very compatible and complementary, and all of them in their best positions.

Individual arguments to be addressed in the thread.

Good luck @Stobzilla! You have a superb team - one worthy of reaching the finals of this draft. :)


Starting formation below. Switch when leading 19-8. Dixie Dean on for Robert Prosinecki.

TEAM STOBZILLA

Formation

Gone for an Ancelotti-esque take on 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 pace, quality and stamina all in abundance in key area's of the pitch. What we may cede in terms of being able to dominate through possession we more than make up for in the counter attacking phase.

Defence

Key feature of my side is it's full backs, Demyanenko and one of the consensus best right backs of all time Wim Suurbier, both have the aforementioned pace, stamina and quality to not only be able to shut down the wide areas whilst still providing an attacking threat. Suurbier is being asked more of offensively out of the two, Demyanenko can still get forward but his moments will be carefully selected. In the middle we have Soviet legend Albert Whatshisfacenevnyov, still a pain in the arse in terms of knowing how to spell his name but also an absolute wall defensively. To his left we have former Real Madrid captain, Multiple CL winner and general ball playing CB animal Fernando Hierro. They are backed up by one Michael Konsel a solid if unspectacular Austrian international and well thought of by Roma fans during his brief time in Italy.

Midfield

Always a key area and I will start with Steven Gerrard here I think it is important to indulge his all action style, we all know his ability/penchant for firing balls from deep, this will allow him to do some of that still but also he gets to be a genuine box to box threat, but this time with slightly more licence to get forward, To his right we have the ver reliable Peter Reid shielding and harrying in the midfield area and Mario Coluna, a perfect tactical fit for this side.

The One

Not much needs to be said regarding Diego Maradona given free licence in this set up he has players all around that can win the ball back and get it too him he has the ability to pass his way or dribble through the tightest of defences.

Attack

Robet Prosinecki starts in a more familiar advanced left hand side role, here his dribbling and passing can be put to it's best use, aiming for probably the best all around forward in the Premiership era of English Football Thierry Henry, his movement and pace along with the possible interchanges and advancing midfielders getting beyond the ball make for a nightmare scenario.

Good luck to Invictus and KM. Should be another good one.
 
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This is a good platform to highlight the brilliance of Francisco Gento, one of the absolute greatest wingers of all time, and a marvelous tactical piece - like Czibor. But somewhat underrated nonetheless - guess that's one of the downsides of playing in a team with Di Stéfano and Puskás.

Voted 30th greatest Player of The Century by IIFHS - with only 3 'wingers' ahead of him - Matthews, Best and Garrincha. And voted to the World Soccer XI three times in a row - 1960, 1961, and 1962 - which goes to show the brilliance of his peak.

The perfect player to provide devastating pace, inventiveness, and rampaging width on the left flank:




And a great goal-threat too:



Also, the record holder for European Cup titles with 6, and La Liga titles with 12. Not too shabby that.

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What I can say here is that while Tresor is class Chipperfield is a sheep, Kurbjuhn is a predominately recognised left back although he COULD do a job in the middle and Camacho is playing on his opposite side as well. Given the abundance of talent with my forward players and the support they will get from deeper I can see us scoring a lot of goals here. I would not balk at the notion of maybe losing one myself as there is some grand attacking talent permeating Invictus and KM's side but it wouldn't be enough.
 
1 vote.

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Aren't the write ups usually longer? I don't recognise half of the players in this game (especially on KM/Invictus' side), could do with more info.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Aren't the write ups usually longer? I don't recognise half of the players in this game (especially on KM/Invictus' side), could do with more info.
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Info on Chipperfield:

Scott Kenneth Chipperfield (born 30 December 1975 in Sydney,[2]New South Wales) is an Australian internationalfootball (soccer) player who currently plays as a midfielder for Swiss club FC Aesch. His 2010 FIFA World Cup profile describes him "as a talented attacker with great physical ability and an eye for goal."[3] He is also known for his versatility in playing in both right and left midfield and as a left sided defender.

Club[edit]
Wollongong Wolves
FC Basel
International[edit]


 
Nils Liedholm


035liedholm.jpg


At the end of the 20th century Liedholm was voted the best Swedish player of the millennium by the readers of Swedens largest newspaper Aftonbladet.
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His speciality was passing the ball, intelligently and with remarkable accuracy, over long distances and short, Liedholm was the creator of many of Gunnar Nordahl's goals who still has the scoring record in Serie A with 225 goals in 257 games. There is a story that it was two years before he first misplaced a pass in front of his home supporters at San Siro. Their reaction to this stunning occurrence, the tale goes on, was a five-minute standing ovation to indicate their recognition that they had witnessed a mere blip in the maestro's customary excellence.
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The Greatest Swedish Footballers of All-Time

1. Nils Liedholm
2. Gunnar Nordahl
3. Kurt Hamrin
4. Sven Rydell
5. Zlatan Ibrahimovic


Milan[2]
Sweden

Quoted from Annah:

Going away for a while now, so will post on the match later.

Liedholm really is one of the best and most underrated(more unknown to be frank) playmakers in history. Incredible dribbling, the stamina and work rate to play as a central midfielder and hound up and down all day, legendary passing range.

It is claimed that two years went by before Liedholm misplaced a single pass while playing for Milan at the San Siro. Whether or not that is true, his passing ability over long or short distances was second to none at the time and from the deeper position of inside forward he was able to control games with ease. He was also exceptionally fit, one of the first players to recognised the importance of physical conditioning for a long career. Although he was primarily a goal creator, usually for Nordahl, Liedholm also possessed a powerful left-footed shot which brought him 18 league goals in his first season with Milan.


Prior to the arrival of their Swedish trio, Milan had not been Italian champions since long before the Serie A era but finished second in Liedholm's first season and in 1950-51 went one better, a total of 107 league goals helping the club finish one point clear of city rivals Inter. They would go on to finish no lower than third in any of the next six years, with further league titles coming in 1955 and 1957. In 1958 Liedholm helped the club to reach the European Cup final when. Playing at inside-right, he scored one and made two more as a 4-0 win overturned a first leg deficit in the semi-final against Manchester United, a team admittedly severely weakened in the aftermath of the Munich air crash. With Liedholm as captain, Milan agonisingly lost the final 3-2 after extra-time to Real Madrid despite leading twice.


Like the other Swedish players in Italy, Liedholm's international career suffered due to his decision to turn professional as Sweden picked only amateur players. He missed the World Cup in 1950, where Sweden finished third, but by 1958 that policy had been reversed. That summer he got the chance to captain his country in the World Cup on home soil, scoring a twice-taken penalty in their opening victory over Mexico. Although he missed a penalty in the next game against Hungary, Sweden won 2-1 to seal their place in the last eight.


Victories over the Soviet Union and West Germany took Sweden into the World Cup final for the first time, where against favourites Brazil it was Liedholm who gave his country the lead in only the fourth minute. That joy did not last long however, as Brazil hit back to seal a comprehensive 5-2 win, but having been almost 36 years old at the time Liedholm remains the oldest player to score a goal in the World Cup final. The final proved to be the last of his 23 international appearances.
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He looks exactly the same in 1958, when he's almost 36 so it is hard to tell. In general he slowed down to make a pass/dribble but he of course had a much higher sprint speed than his walking dribbles. But he carried Sweden to the 1958 final(Swedens only ever) as a 36 years old and that final had Didi, Garrincha, Pele, Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos, Bellini, Gilmar and Zagallo who are all considered legends.

So if we rate them, we also have to rate Liedholm who far far after his peak was capable of carrying Sweden to the final(and scoring, which took Sweden to the lead after 4 minutes). He receives a ball, dribbles past Bellini, Nilton Santos steps in and Liedholm dribbles past him with ease, Bellini comes in again to close the space but it is too late - Liedholm shoots and scores.

It is not "a goal", it is quite a damn play from a 36 year old. Quite a few people have made that slow dribbling style work well.
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Also from Annah:

"Feck, wanted to add some stuff from the Swedish documentaries about him/Grenoli but couldn't find a way to access it and there aren't many other great sources so there aren't many changes but here goes. I bet there are some Italian sources about, but the idea was to not use the 1958 footage as it just shows him past his peak and even if he was still the captain, and the second best player in thI'd say it was the Schiaffino-era

There haven't been a lot of players similar to the mould of Didi, who used their world class dribbling as a provocation tool primarily and as a manner of getting past a defender secondarily. Both Liedholm and Didi were experts at provoking the opponents to try and steal the ball from them and when they did they were turned inside out until they could slip a through ball straight in to the space that opened up.

It wasn't a choice the opponents had, they slowly walked or jogged with the ball at their feet closer and closer to the opponent until he had to react and when he did the dance started. The first opponent tries to win the ball aggressively, the second tries to be passive but still gets pulled out of position and Liedholms crisp passing leads to a goal.


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"Technically, few matched him and his passes were so spot on, so precise, that he never missed a pass. Actually he did miss one pass. It was 3 seasons after he joined Milan, I don’t remember the exact game, or the exact year, but all the old Milan fans are saying it, that at one time, at the San Siro, Liedholm missed a pass in midfield. He wanted to pass the ball to a teammate and instead, the ball went straight to an opponent. At that time, happened one of the most extraordinary moments ever lived in the San Siro, as related by the old timers. The crowd couldn't believe their eyes. In 3 full years, that Liedholm has been playing for Milan, no one could remember him making a bad pass. At that time, the whole San Siro gave Liedholm, one of the warmest and longest standing ovation ever witnessed in that great stadium. "It was the first pass I missed in about five years," Liedholm recalls.


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His confidence and tranquility showcased itself everywhere on the pitch, when the man received the ball at his feet the fans, his teammates and himself were all confident that he wouldn't loose the ball, regardless of the situation. Here he hits a perfect tackle when he's out of position covering as a right back, before he dribbles past both his own keeper and the opponent - and the longer version also shows him finding his teammate with the clearance as well.

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"His passing ability over long or short distances was second to none at the time and from the deeper position of inside forward he was able to control games with ease. He was also exceptionally fit, one of the first players to recognised the importance of physical conditioning for a long career. Although he was primarily a goal creator, usually for Nordahl, Liedholm also possessed a powerful left-footed shot which brought him 18 league goals in his first season with Milan.

While he wasn't an aggressive player defensively, he was as tactically astute and mature as they come and an inspiration for his teammates as a captain. As soon as he retired he was hired as the assistant manager, and he went on to have a great coaching career as well.

Prior to the arrival of their Swedish trio, Milan had not been Italian champions since long before the Serie A era but finished second in Liedholm's first season and in 1950-51 went one better, a total of 107 league goals helping the club finish one point clear of city rivals Inter. They would go on to finish no lower than third in any of the next six years, with further league titles coming in 1955 and 1957. In 1958 Liedholm helped the club to reach the European Cup final when. Playing at inside-right, he scored one and made two more as a 4-0 win overturned a first leg deficit in the semi-final against Manchester United, a team admittedly severely weakened in the aftermath of the Munich air crash. With Liedholm as captain, Milan agonisingly lost the final 3-2 after extra-time to Real Madrid despite leading twice.

It is said that Real Madrid great Alfredo Di Stefano who, felt despite victory it was a match Milan could have won.Asking Liedholm to exchange shirts, Liedholm said to him "Keep it. That won't matter. The only thing that will be remembered from this match down the years is that Real Madrid won"."

It wasn't the first time the dominant club side in history put a stick in the wheel of fortune for Milan. In 1955, Liedholm captained his side against Madrid in the semi-finals where they lost with 4-5 over two legs.

Not a lot of players have captained their club and nation to a European Cup and World Cup final in the same year, and he came 6th in the Ballon d'Or that season as a 36 year old who was past his peak. His peak had started a decade earlier, when Grenoli lead Sweden to victory in the 1948 Olympics which meant they'd all be playing for Milan the season after.


Random comparisons between him and other greats, note that they aren't facts or necessarily accurate, and not a representation of my opinion.

The 100 Greatest Playmakers of All-Time

1. Michel Platini (France)
2. Zinedine Zidane (France)
3. Bobby Charlton (England)
4. Didi (Brazil)
5. Rivelino (Brazil)
6. Gianni Rivera (Italy)
7. Raymond Kopa (France)
8. Luis Suarez Miramontes (Spain)
9. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)

The 50 Greatest Offensive Midfielders of All-time

16. Nils Liedholm
17. Michael Laudrup

The 125 Greatest Players in history
72. Nilton Santos
71. Nils Liedholm
70. Paul Breitner

The 100 Greatest Footballers of All-time
44. Giacinto Facchetti (Italy)
45. Nils Liedholm (Sweden)
46. Valentino Mazzola (Italy)
47. Rivaldo (Brazil)

The 100 Greatest players of All-Time(Pantheon)
76 Dixie Dean 80 75 75 76.6 English 1923-39
75 Kurt Hamrin 80 75 75 76.6 Swedish 1952-72
74 Nils Liedholm 81 75 75 77 Swedish 1938-61
73 Marco Tardelli 78 77 76 77 Italian 1972-88

The invitable and unquestionable PES Stats ranking: Don't read this crap, seriously stop reading, ok you stubborn bastards.

Best long passers in history:
98: David BECKHAM 1998-2002 & 2003-2005, Josep GUARDIOLA, Luis SUAREZ, Günter NETZER, Dragan DŽAJIĆ

97: Andrea PIRLO 2005-2007, Michel PLATINI 1980-1986, Diego MARADONA 1992-1994, Wim VAN HANEGEM

96: GERSON, Puck VAN HEEL, César CUETO, Diego MARADONA 1976-1982

95: David KIPIANI, Francisco ARCE, Juan Sebastián VERÓN, Ernst OCWIRK, Gianni RIVERA, Stanley MATTHEWS,Glenn HODDLE, Nils Liedholm

Best short passers in history:
98: RUI COSTA, Carlos VALDERRAMA

97: Josep GUARDIOLA, Juan Roman RIQUELME, ZICO

96: Michael LAUDRUP 1990-1994, Johnny HAYNES, Gianni RIVERA, Zinedine ZIDANE 2004-2006, Yuri GAVRILOV,SOCRATES, Juan Sebastian VERON, Ricardo BOCHINI, Nils Liedholm"
 
A bit on Mario Coluna from when I used him last year.

Mario Coluna
"O Monstro Sagrado" was one of the key components of the successful Benfica side and is considered as one of the best offensive box to box midfielders around. Younger players as a sign of respect used to call him "Senhor Coluna" (mr. Coluna). Eusébio, to this day, still calls him Senhor Coluna.

After trying boxing, in unorthodox fights, with no coherent rules - circumstance that might have helped shape the combat spirit that always marked him - basketball and Track & Field (where, at around age 16, he established a national height jump record of 182,5 cm) Coluna started at football at age 15. He spent sixteen years with Benfica, and was a crucial part of one of the most successful periods in the club's history. In his first year at the club, Benfica won the Portuguese league and cup double, and by May 1955 Coluna was already a Portuguese international, making his debut in a 3-0 defeat against Scotland.

Over the next decade Coluna won a further six league titles and four Portuguese Cups as well as back to back European Cup wins in 1961 and 1962, scoring the winning goal himself in the 1961 final and also scoring on the 1962 final match. On the next final, in Wembley, against AC Milan, Coluna met Giovanni Trapattoni, that would later become Benfica's coach (2004/05) and a fan favourite in Estádio da Luz. The final against the Italian squad is of bad memory for Coluna since he was injured by a cynical Trapattoni tackle and SL Benfica lost it. Since no substitutions were allowed, Coluna bravely endured what he could of the game, even with a severely hurt foot. Santana, another Benfica player, was also "taken down" in that match by the brute AC Milan defence. Coluna said: "I'm thankful for the championship he has won for Benfica as a Benfica fan, but I can't forgive what he as done to me. He almost torn my foot in half. It was a pity, because we had the team to win that match, it should have happened. I was invited by an Italian TV Station to show up - together with Trapattoni - in 2005, for an interview. I showed up but he didn't. He didn't have the courage to look me in the eyes".

He played in a total of 5 European Cup finals in the 1960's. By 1966 he was the captain of the national team as Portugal qualified for the World Cup finals for the first time in their history.

When playing the Intercontinental Cup, in Brazil - Maracanã Stadium - against Pelé's Santos, Brazilian reporters started calling him "The Didi of Portugal".

At the World Cup in England, he led the team through to the semi-finals, inspired by the goals of his Benfica team mate Eusébio. The host nation ended their dreams in the semi-final, but Portugal finished a creditable third. He was called to the FIFA XI, the following year, celebrating Zamora's 65th birthday, on a FIFA XI Vs Spain match. Helenio Herrera, the FIFA XI coach, gave him the captaincy of the team.

Back with Benfica, three more league titles and two more cup wins followed, and by the time Coluna left Benfica, in 1970, his total of honours had reached nineteen, including an amazing ten league titles. Coluna was a "protector". He didn't allow anyone to treat his colleagues on the pitch with lack of respect. His colleagues felt protected by his aura and the respect the opponents had for Coluna. His most intimidating sentence was: "If you touch that kid again you'll leave the pitch with one leg licking the other". It's possible that whoever fouled Simôes or Eusébio didn't know Coluna was a Boxer in his teens.

After nearly 700 appearances for Benfica, Coluna moved to France to end his career with Olympique Lyonnais. Following his retirement, Coluna went on to work in football administration, serving as President of the football federation in his native Mozambique, and during the 1990s he spent five years as Mozambique's Minister of Sport.

Strong at midfield, Coluna was known for the way he played on the field because of his elegant and efficient style. Coluna used to score long distance goals with ease. He was also known for his stamina, that allowed him to control all the areas of the field. In his early days in SL Benfica he was tested as a central forward by Otto Glória, but he achieved great notoriety as a central Midfielder.
 
Article on Rivera nicked off Bleacher Report:


In the footballing realm, Italy is a European powerhouse indeed. Since forever, the Italians have been known for their elaborate, tactical superiority and a monstrous defense that can make even the best attack in the world look helpless and feeble.

They don't always play a beautiful game. They frustrate and wear out oppositions, play a tough game, never shy away from a rough tackle. Scoring a goal against the Italians is an achievement that should be engraved on your tombstone.

It's slightly shocking then, that in such a defensive and tough mindset, a rather frail-bodied, shy but graceful, creative genius was born. What is not surprising though, considering his talent, is that he went on to become one of the best footballers of all time.

Gianni Rivera is truly a legend.

Giovanni Rivera was born in Alessandria on August 18th, 1943. His love for football was evident right from an early age and his unique silky style and creativity soon caught everyone's eye. Though he started out on the wings, he would find himself more suited in the central midfield position, playing deep and creating opportunities.

He made his Serie A debut at the age of 15 for his hometown Alessandria. His debut match was, as luck would have it, against AC Milan's bitter rivals—Inter Milan.

Gianni scored six goals in 25 appearances the next season. It was a splendid return for a midfielder of that age in the toughest league of the time, defensively speaking.

And it was not long before the Italian giants AC Milan recognized his potential and brought him over to the glorious red-and-black side of Milan, where he would stay until the end of his long and illustrious career.

The transfer fee was a record one at that time: An earth-shattering $200,000, for a 16-year-old who had played only one real season. But having watched Rivera play, few doubted the youngster's potential, and everybody knew Milan were an even bigger offensive threat now.

By this time, he was already dubbed "The golden boy." Throughout the 1960s, he would dominate the midfield, and etch a name for himself in the history books as one of the finest and the most refined players of his time, and indeed, of any time.

His playing style was unique and radically different from his Italian teammates, even in the midfield. He was never a physical player—his body structure wouldn't allow him to be so.

Though he wasn't a rough player, it would be a mistake to say he wasn't gritty. He compensated his on-field physical inferiority with supreme intelligence and creative flamboyance. His vision for passing was immaculate; he created room for himself and provided high-percentage assists.

His midfield dominance was not one warranted by an intimidating presence, but more so by his tactical and technical brilliance, of which there are few parallels.

After his arrival at the San Siro, Rivera wouldn't have to wait long to taste success with the Rossoneri. He smashed in 10 goals in the 1961/62 season and AC Milan would go on and win the Scudetto.

That same year, Rivera also made his international debut for Italy, but his international career, though memorable, would be more painful for him in years to come.

But his days of scripting the glory days of the Rossoneri were just beginning. 1962 also saw AC Milan beat Benfica 2-1 in a memorable match and Milan won the European Cup, now known as the Champions League.

The latter half of the decade saw Rivera become an absolute phenomenon as Milan won the Italian Cup, the Serie A league title, the European cup, the Cup Winner's Cup, the Europe/South America cup—all in just two years.

Milan was undoubtedly the best club in the world, and Gianni Rivera was the hero.

In 1969, the 26-year-old Rivera won the prestigious Ballon d'or award. He was the first Italian to do so.

Rivera continued to churn out good performances during the 70s, as Milan won another couple of Italian cups, and a Cup Winner's Cup in the decade.

But Rivera's international career was not as he would have expected it to be. For bitter city rivals Inter Milan had another brilliant star midfielder by the name of Alessandro Mazzola. The Rivera-Mazzola rivalry, though only on field and fueled mostly by the Milan-Inter rivalry, was one for the ages.

It was so intense that even though both were brilliant players, the Italian national coach would only select one at a time as he thought they could not co-exist together on the field. He employed a strategy known as staffetta wherein Mazzola played the first half, and Rivera would play the second.

Each of them had their own style and their own assets and weaknesses. Mazzola was more physical and controlling of the midfield, playing on the right hand side; Rivera was the more refined, silky smooth, creative midfielder who played at his own pace in the center.

The strategy paid rich dividends as Italy would reach the finals of the 1970 World Cup against Brazil. Wait....Pele's Brazil. That adds a whole new dimension to it all.

But when the world's best offense squared off against the world's best defense, the Italian coach made the biggest mistake of his career: He didn't bring on Rivera in the second half, thinking that the tougher Mazzola was the better option against the quick, aggressive style of the Brazilians.

Rivera finally came on to the field with only a few minutes to spare, and Italy lost.

He represented the Azzurri once again in 1974, but age and time were not on his side. Not winning the World Cup for his country was probably the biggest disappointment of his career.

Rivera would help Milan win yet another Scudetto in 1979, his final year at the club.

By that time he had made, in total, 658 appearances for Milan, scoring 164 goals. Prolific, by any standards.

Rivera stayed at the club helping in administrative matters, and even became the vice-president. But when Silvio Berlusconi, lying on the opposite political spectrum of his, bought the club in 1986, he had to leave. Rivera soon joined politics.

There is a reason this footballer was so prolific—and it goes far beyond a mere list of the awards and titles he has won.

Some say talent is a natural gift. Some say talent is a result of hard work. Well, Rivera is the unadulterated personification of both these aspects unified, amplified several times.

He had talent, but he applied himself the right way. Like all great players, he was aware of his strengths and weaknesses. His graceful passing, shrewd understanding of the game, and above all, his uncorrupted desire to play the beautiful game of football, is what makes him the legend that he is today.

The "Golden Boy" celebrates his birthday on August 18th. Happy birthday, Gianni!
 
More on Rivera:

Gianni_Rivera-76221.jpg




The infamous performance vs young Cruyff and Ajax in the 1969 European Cup final before Johan exploded in life in the early '70s. Provides 3 assists for Milan who won 4-1, and Rivera won the Ballon D'Or that year after finishing 2nd when he won his first European Cup with Milan.



Voted 19th Greatest Player in the IFFHS Century elections:

19.Valdir Pereira Didi (Brazil) 116
Gianni Rivera (Italy) 116
21.Giuseppe Meazza (Italy) 108
22.Matthias Sindelar (Austria) 106
23 Fritz Walter (Germany) 103
24.Robert Moore (England) 98

And 1st in the Italian Player of the Century elections:

1.Gianni Rivera 113
2.Giuseppe Meazza 90
3.Giacinto Facchetti 79
4.Franco Baresi 66
5.Sandro Mazzola 53
6.Silvio Piola 46
7.Paolo Rossi 27
8.Luigi Riva 26
9.Roberto Baggio 21
10.Gaetano Scirea 19
11.Paolo Maldini 12
12.Roberto Bettega 9
13.Giampiero Boniperti 3



Club[edit]
Milan[12]
International[edit]
Italy[24]
Individual[edit]
 
I really think we should keep the player profiles minimum and explain the how the player will make a difference here.

All these mega writeup and no discussions are just wrong.

Stobzilla said:
What I can say here is that while Tresor is class Chipperfield is a sheep, Kurbjuhn is a predominately recognised left back although he COULD do a job in the middle and Camacho is playing on his opposite side as well. Given the abundance of talent with my forward players and the support they will get from deeper I can see us scoring a lot of goals here. I would not balk at the notion of maybe losing one myself as there is some grand attacking talent permeating Invictus and KM's side but it wouldn't be enough.
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This seems to be the only comment and I kind of agree with this. Camacho is a Left Back and didn't realize Chipperfield was a sheep.

I kind of dislike Stobz team too and don't buy into Henry leading the line in a Christmas Tree that much. Maradona is also not that perfect in that position imo.

Some other random thoughts..

Gento vs Suurbier is a big mismatch.
Gerrard and Coluna should be swapped.
Liedholm and Rivera is a overkill in the middle.

In the end, that defensive imbalance of Invictus KM will prove too big to bridge.
 
Michael Konsel wasn't just an "unspectacular" GK. In his prime he was a top class keeper and absolutely crucial to Rapid Vienna's run to the EC final in 1996. Shame on you!

I still voted for you
 
I feel this game should be much tighter than the score indicates.

What I like most in KM/Invictus side is that it's one of the few that have genuine width with Bene and Gento - who IMO are top top players that have proved themselves in that wider areas and they have Vieri who is a targetman in that setup and can sure score goals.

Then we have Goncalvez, Liedholm and Rivera who are IMO better than Stob's midfield and I think between three of them is perfect balance.

KM/Invictus side have the better keeper and Tresor IMO is up there with Hierro in terms of class. Camacho I feel should be on the left, where he'll excel most and is one of the best left backs - a tireless runner with his defensive attributes.

Stobz has of course Maradona, Henry who are the best in their positions, better full back against the sheep one and Shesternyov is better than Kurbuhn(I know nothing of him to be fair).

I feel Coluna and Reid is a bit of mismatch in the middle of the park, can't see them working together, has to be either or and can't see what Gerrard's left side role in that trio is. Think he's box to box in that formation, but with 2 DM/anchor roles in Coluna and Reid I'm not sure if that's necessary, he'd be more useful with more attacking role, but there he'll clash with Maradona.

I'm not sure whether Stobz full backs will provide enough width as their hands will be tied with Gento and Bene...

I think Stobz should've went with Dean and Henry up front, Maradona behind them, Coluna as DM/anchor and Prosinecki/ Gerrard box to box.

I think Prosinecki is better in Gerrard's role above, Gerrard is better than Coluna's role above and Maradona should be nothing else but central in that formation, not sure what his role is as well.
 
José Camacho could play both fullback positions effectively, but Chipperfield could only play leftback in defense; so it was a matter of necessities and patching things together. Here he is marking Dragan Džajić, one of the greatest wingers of all time from a rightback position:



Purely tactical decision to have him on the right, while masking the weakness of Chipperfield who could then drift inwards and maybe help limit Maradona's influence with Gonçalvez as the extra man.

Overall I think our defense is too lightweight to contain his attack, if we had gotten maybe Hansen in the reinforcement round we would have a strong case because Kurbjuhn could be sent to leftback.

But apart from that, and looking at the positives - our midfield is very balanced with each player having a clear role and we should dominate the center of the pitch; and we have better width, and a better target man compared with Henry who will float as the forward.

Stobz should win this, and deservedly so for his wonderful drafting - we acquired too many sheep in the first 6 or 7 rounds while chasing unrealistic/ highly coveted targets; and this will prove to be a bridge too far (especially since we bombed the reinforcement rounds too, and got just 1 pick) no matter what spin we put on things because of the imbalance between the respective defenses, and the presence of Diego in the opposition. :D
 
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Enigma_87 said:
Stobz has of course Maradona, Henry who are the best in their positions, better full back against the sheep one and Shesternyov is better than Kurbuhn(I know nothing of him to be fair).

I feel Coluna and Reid is a bit of mismatch in the middle of the park, can't see them working together, has to be either or and can't see what Gerrard's left side role in that trio is. Think he's box to box in that formation, but with 2 DM/anchor roles in Coluna and Reid I'm not sure if that's necessary, he'd be more useful with more attacking role, but there he'll clash with Maradona.
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Coluna at his best wasn't an anchoring player in the same way Reid is, he was genuinely box to box averaging 1 in 4 from midfield.
 
Invictus said:
Overall I think our defense is too lightweight to contain his attack, if we had gotten maybe Hansen in the reinforcement round we would have a strong case because Kurbjuhn could be sent to leftback.
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aye, that's the biggest difference there. If you guys have picked a class CB I think it would be up in the air, but Maradona and Stobz sheepless defence will eventually tip it. I think apart from the defence with the obvious 2 weak links you guys have drafted pretty balanced team.

Stobzilla said:
Coluna at his best wasn't an anchoring player in the same way Reid is, he was genuinely box to box averaging 1 in 4 from midfield.
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from what I've read/know about him he has more defensive qualities(strength, stamina) than offensive ones and was a tireless runner that covered a lot of ground. He had goals in him but his best qualities tend to make him more of a DM/anchor than AM/box to box - pretty much his modern version is Arturo Vidal.
 
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Enigma_87 said:
aye, that's the biggest difference there. If you guys have picked a class CB I think it would be up in the air, but Maradona and Stobz sheepless defence will eventually tip it. I think apart from the defence with the obvious 2 weak links you guys have drafted pretty balanced team.
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In fairness, we tried to pick class CBs over and over again - Passarella, Figueroa, Moore (doesn't get more classy than that trio) - apart from Kohler, Hierro; and got cock-blocked every single time. :lol:
So we figured, let's go for underrated and less obvious picks - which worked better in the last 5-6 rounds, apart from 1 regret - overlooking Krol, Sammer, Desailly in favor of Gento who is maybe not that popular of a name in attacking terms - that left us with no options for Marius' partner; though we did snake through Round 1 where Joga had the better team.
Even in the reinforcement round, we went for Hansen twice, and failed twice.
But all in all, we have a better understanding of sheep drafting now (moreso with the benefit of hindsight); so maybe in Sheep Draft IV we'll have a better backline. :D
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't think either are in their best positions. Maradona is not a hybrid Inside Right AM type player at all. And Henry is not the type of striker for this set up. I'd prefer someone like MvB, Shevchenko or Drogba type.
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Shevchenko stands out like a sore thumb there - not at all sure why you think he's a better fit than Henry as he was also a complete forward and better as a second striker behind an Inzaghi/Crespo.

Henry is a better fit than Sheva and IMO absolutely fine in that role.

I think you have a semi-point on Maradona and if it were me I would have Gerrard towards the right as he was under Benitez which should allow Maradona to take a more central role. I don't think it matters that much though as Maradona would still be devastating where he is - it's not like Stobz has instructed him to hug the line.

That said there's a lot to like about Invictus' team - for my money whilst Stobz has an advantage in terms of player quality, Invictus has tactically the more sounder side and I love that Rivera-Gento-Vieri axis. Score should be closer than it is.
 
Prosinecki is probably the worst possible player to play with Maradona, i reckon the argentinian would strangle him by the end of the game.....ball huger of the highest order, a brilliant talent and a great player, even better person but i just cant see them working together.
Two very good sides but i like invictus midfield more and i reckon his players have bigger chance to shine + the game is over so :D
 
Theon said:
Shevchenko stands out like a sore thumb there - not at all sure why you think he's a better fit than Henry as he was also a complete forward and better as a second striker behind an Inzaghi/Crespo.

Henry is a better fit than Sheva and IMO absolutely fine in that role.
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I did prefer Sheva as I consider him better in holding up the ball and occupying the defenders and opening up spaces for Maradona. Henry has played lone striker before but I always thought he was more effective in a free left drifting role,esp in absence of someone like Bergkamp to do it.

Neither Gerrard nor Prosinecki are traditional wingers and I see Henry frequently slipping into the Inside Left role and that would be counter productive for the team. If you instruct Henry to lead the line all through it takes away his speciality imo. You need someone who can occupy the CBs and let Maradona do the dribbling.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I did prefer Sheva as I consider him better in holding up the ball and occupying the defenders and opening up spaces for Maradona. Henry has played lone striker before but I always thought he was more effective in a free left drifting role,esp in absence of someone like Bergkamp to do it.

Neither Gerrard nor Prosinecki are traditional wingers and I see Henry frequently slipping into the Inside Left role and that would be counter productive for the team. If you instruct Henry to lead the line all through it takes away his speciality imo. You need someone who can occupy the CBs and let Maradona do the dribbling.
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Sheva was notorious for disappearing in games and popping up with a goal. Not quite the hassling striker to keep the defenders busy. He preferred to let them forget him than to keep them busy.

It's good that Gerrard and Prosnecki aren't traditional wingers as Stob isn't using traditional wingers.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't think either are in their best positions. Maradona is not a hybrid Inside Right AM type player at all. And Henry is not the type of striker for this set up. I'd prefer someone like MvB, Shevchenko or Drogba type.
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I agree with your assessment. What I tried to say was that Maradona and Henry are the best forward, #10 on the field which eventually will tip it in Stobz favor in terms of quality. I also think that Maradona should be central, not in that position and I'm not sure how Henry would lead the line in this setup.

In the previous game it was Henry off Dean for Stobz and I think it looked much better.

I think Stobz could do better with a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 or even a magic square as neither of his midfield/attacking options are used to play that much on the wing(bar Henry @ Monaco) with fullbacks providing the width.

From that formation I can't see Stobz utilizing the left flank at all - Demyanenko doesn't have forward instructions, Prosinecki is somehow inside left that cuts inside in the position where Maradona should be, Gerrard is instructed to cover left side but his forward runs are again somewhere in the hole behind the strikers... It looks a bit odd.

On the other hand Invictus's side has most players in their natural positions and natural movement, with the exception of Camacho who is a top LB playing on the right which is position that he's capable(albeit not his best) to cover.
 
Why is Gerrard on the left and Coluna is on the right? I would've switched them as the starfish is obviously better as a right-sided midfielder
 
Stobzilla said:


Something along these lines was going to be my original submission, are we thinking this one is better ?
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Yep!

If you keep things as they are (:angel:):

Ok, so you look at the opposition's attack, and a couple things make you wonder:

1. Henry was at his best for Arsenal where he was the heart of the team, and got things his way - often dropping deep or wide and carrying the ball forward - those teams were built for him. For France, he was good, but not a consistently devastating presence because of Zidane - who liked to put on a show, and didn't always pass the ball to Thierry. To make things complicated, here he has one of the greatest ball hoggers of all time in Diego. How will that impact Henry? To kind of counterbalance that, he did play in a team built around Messi, but Guardiola's tactics were special and Barcelona's team ethic cannot always be transposed elsewhere because of the uniqueness of their style of play.

2. To make things even muddier, Prosinečki will try to do his own thing to - affecting not just Thierry, but Maradona - and between the trio they will have a tendency to clog central areas. Then you add Mr. Hollywood Steven Gerrard to the mix, and you wonder if there are too many cooks to spoil the broth. Ideally when you have a GOAT tier footballer like Diego, you need to build the team around him - and try to extract the maximum out of his skillset. Are his team-mates selfless enough to let him take matters into his own hands? Or will they just detract from his qualities?

Our team has a supporting cast that can do well even without seeing a lot of the ball:

Gento played in a team with Di Stéfano and Puskás, and still excelled. Something that the likes of Kopa and Didi couldn't do.
Vieri does not need a lot of touches to score since he is playing the classic target man role - geting on the end of Rivera's through balls, Liedholm's long passes, and Gento's crosses.
Bene played in a team with Flórián Albert as the kingpin, and thrived in the secondary role.



This leaves Rivera and Liedholm to create magic from the center - especially Rivera who was a master of manipulating the tempo and setting up chances for his team-mates; and a great goalscorer at his peak too.

 
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