Sheep Draft - Cutch vs Kazi

Who would win based on player peak?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Skizzo

Full Member
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Location
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LONGEVITY
- 10 outfield players each considered to be a legend of the game in their respective countries.
Lets take a minute to reflect on the longevity of some of these careers:

Club
Nilton Santos - 723 games at Botafogo
Stanley Matthews - 700 career games
Zanetti - 19 years at Inter
Bozsik - 19 years at Honved
Gento - 18 years at Real
Charlton - 17 years at Man Utd
Sadurni 16 years at Barca
Krol - 12 years at Ajax

Country
Zanetti - 145 caps
Gamarra - 110 caps
Simeone - 106 caps
Charlton - 106 caps
Bozsik - 101 caps
Krol - 83 caps
Nilton Santos - 75 caps
TACTICS
- A solid defence with 2 of the most complete fullbacks ever to have played the game, and in the centre a complete footballer alongside a complete defender.
- The creative hub is Jozsef Bozsik with the tireless Diego Simeone in close attendance providing the running, endeavour and tactical nous.
- The width further forward is provided by 2 legendary flying machines providing an outlet in behind for Bozsiks metronomic passing and also creating space for Bozsik carrying the ball forward. Matthews and Gento will run at and commit the opposition defenders and do what they do best, getting quality delivery into box for one of the most natural goalscorers to have played the game Just Fontaine to profit.
- Also in the thick of things none other than Sir Bobby Charlton, Man Utd and Englands record goalscorer.

Team Cutch
My-team-formation-tactics.png

Team Kazi
Landa%27s-Boys-formation-tactics.png


General style of play
  • Happy to absorb pressure against teams who hold possession well, otherwise Iniesta will take hold of the game
  • Generally attack in short, quick bursts when blood is smelt
  • Counter quickly
  • Overall superior fitness of the team will allow them to be patient and take control in the latter stages / strike late on in a tight game
Attack
Spearheaded by a brilliant all round striker in Jurgen Klinsmann. I mean, who gets second place at the Ballon d’Or while playing for Tottenham? Iniesta, one of the great playmakers will be supplying Klinsmann with most of his chances. His pace and strength will work a treat with Iniesta’s through balls from midfield. Klinsmann was also great at finding space within the box and poaching, Bale from the wing will give him plenty of opportunities to do just that. Landa on the left will be making himself a nuisance for their backline; making runs to help make space for Klinsmann, getting involved in build-up play and looking to get on the end of chances, he 1 in 2 scoring rate for Chile is very good. Robson (who had numerous 15 goal seasons) and Schweinsteiger will also be busting a gut to be that final piece in a successful attack, although their first priority will be to help and protect Iniesta in setting up attacks and creating chances. Klinsmann can make magic happen from craps, even if we are struggling to control and create. I will also try taking advantage of set pieces. All of my back four are threats from set pieces, as is my centre forward, and most of the others aren’t bad either. I’ll also add that Bale has an extremely underrated strike-rate with the dead ball. He used to be known as a free-kick specialist, you know.


Defence
Probably my strength, led by the legend Scirea. He’ll be organising that fierce backline. Thiago Silva is proving to be the most talented defender of his generation, and with Scirea next to him, they’ll make quite a pairing. My full-backs are probably best known for playing in central areas. This has its advantages and disadvantages. But overall, it makes my wide areas more defensively solid and versatile, having two guys who are fit to adapt and excellent at reading a situation. Schweinsteiger and Robson provide excellent protection at the heart. On most occasions, I’ll be looking to have another bank of four in front of the back four, with one guy ahead to lead the counter and Klinsmann up top. That second bank of four will always consist of Schweinsteiger at Robson, and then two of Bale, Iniesta and Landa depending on which one of them is left highest up the pitch and/or way out of position after an attack. Preferably, Bale will always be on the right of the four with Landa/Iniesta on the left. Although, positions can change depending on the situation, e.g. if Landa is high up the pitch and Iniesta is central, Schweinsteiger can move over to the left of the four and Iniesta can drop in next to Robson. They’re all known to have great stamina, so I have the confidence that they’ll always cover each others backs. Shout-out to Cech, who is the man you want at the back of a defensive team with his brilliant concentration, decision making and general keeping skills.

Cutch / Why I will win
  • You’ve been quoted as having the ‘best team in the draft’ (Raees 2015, p.84) and an ‘amazing’ team (NM 2015, p.84). Your team is pretty good, but it’s met its match here. Perhaps not man for man (although I’d disagree here, give me Bale over any of his attackers) but definitely stylistically. My team will outwork you, out-heart you and most crucially, outscore you.
  • I see your major strength coming down the wings with Matthews and Gento. But they are coming up against the type of full-backs wingers never want to come up against. They’re coming up against centre-backs. Centre-backs with bite. Centre-back with greatest positional sense and awareness than your average full-back. Ramos one on one eats up most wingers, he’s too fast and too strong. And you gotta be one clever motherfecker to get past de Boer.
  • Your team’s old. Will they really be able to keep up with my modern team. These guys are supreme athletes. Nilton Santos is one of the great left-backs, but will his 1950s ass really be able to keep up with Gareth Bale? A Gareth Bale that probably bench presses 140kg and runs 100 metres in 10.5 seconds? There is too much talent and too much pure athleticism for my lot not to overwhelm you.
  • I have the best playmaker on the pitch. You have a lot of talented players, there’s no doubt about that. But there’s no one who’s going to create chances as frequently and as consistently as Iniesta. There’s no one on the pitch that can touch him in that regard. You may have a man on him, but he’s the kind of playmaker that’ll not only make plays, but make space for himself to allow him to make those plays.
  • Klinsmann vs your centre-backs, or more specifically, Gamarra. Ruud Krol is undeniably a legendary sweeper, but I believe that if Klinsmann keeps himself stuck to Gamarra, he’ll have him one on one when the opportunities arise.
 
Cutch PLAYER PROFILES


SALVADOR SADURNI

A nobody that needs upgrading. Spent 16 years at Barcelona from 1960, 3 times winning the Zamora trophy.

JAVIER ZANETTI
19 years at Inter Milan and an astonishing 145 caps for Argentina. One of the finest fullbacks of all time. Physical powerhouse and a model of consistency.

CARLOS GAMARRA
Paraguays inspirational leader and most capped player. One of the most respected defenders ever to come out of South America.
A defender so good at reading the game that his wonderful displays in Paraguay's backs-to-the-wall 1998 World Cup campaign were not blighted by a single foul.

RUUD KROL
One of the best defenders of his generation, Krol defined the Dutch ‘Total Football’ philosophy. Quick and agile, Krol is perhaps best remembered for his explosive runs down the left wing combined with his accurate delivery, however such was his talent that he could play anywhere across midfield or the back line and excelled as a libero at the 1978 WC.

NILTON SANTOS
Legendary Brazilian left back selected in the FIFA world team of century in 1998. A defender so complete he was nicknamed ‘The Encyclopaedia of Football’. Revolutionised the position of attacking fullback and inspired generations of Brazilian that followed in that position. Outstanding in attack with his pace, world-class dribbling and crossing.

Zito
“When you played the ball as much as he did, the position didn’t really matter ... Nilton Santos wasn’t a defender or a full-back. He was just a star, it was as simple as that.”
JOZSEF BOZSIK
Forget the likes of Pirlo and Alonso, Jozsef Bozsik is considered the finest deep lying playmaker in the history of the game. The brains of one of the best sides of all time, Hungary’s Mighty Magyars that dominated the 1950's.
There are few historical players who would have been more valued in the modern game. For Bozsik possessed the gift that is the most valued in contemporary football and the hardest to find, that of time. He had the ability and composure to wait for the right option and to execute what few others could even see. In an era where such qualities are at a premium, Bozsik would have been peerless.

DIEGO SIMEONE
The perfect foil to accompany Bozsik, Simeone was known to be a tenacious and complete two-way midfielder, who was capable both of winning balls and starting attacking plays, and also scoring goals himself. He was primarily known for his leadership, technique, tactical versatility, intelligence, strength, stamina, and workrate, although he was also noted for his vision and passing range.

SIR BOBBY CHARLTON
Arguably the finest player to come out of English football. Man Utd and Englands all time goalscorer. A legend of the game. A gentleman of honesty and integrity. Personified the Busby Babes – the triumph, tragedy and the ability to rise from the munich air disaster to restore the glory days to the club. His game displayed grace, speed, athleticism and a thunderous shot

George Best
"I've never seen anyone go past players as easily as he did''

Sir Matt Busby
''There has never been a more popular footballer," "He was as near perfection as man and player as it is possible to be."
FRANCISCO 'PACO' GENTO
Trophies, trophies and more trophies. That’s the story of the career of A player many believe to be the best left-winger of all time and the only player in history to win six European Cups. Gento had lightning pace, fantastic dribbling skills and perfect accuracy in his crosses, and he played in one of the truly great Real Madrid teams. Along with Di Stefano, Kopa, Rial and Puskas he was part of a stunning forward line that led the team to win five consecutive European Cups. He was scorer of a not too shabby 182 goals in 602 matches.
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=174556/index.html

SIR STANLEY MATTHEWS
One of the greatest players of the English game. He was the first player to win both the Football Writers’ Association Footballer of the Year and European Footballer of the Year awards. His quick feet and quick speed earned him the nicknames, “The Magician”, and “The Wizard of the Dribble.”

Pele
''The man who taught us the way football should be played''.

Berti Vogts
''It is not just in England where his name is famous. All over the world he is regarded as a true football genius''.
JUST FONTAINE
Fontaine was a born finisher, smooth and strikingly two-footed. There are similarities with the greatest goalscorer of them all, Gerd Müller: both were squat men with formidable strength, particularly in their tree-trunk thighs, and both had a supernatural awareness and serenity in their patch of land, the 18-yard box.
One of France’s greatest ever strikers, best known for scoring an unbelievable 13 goals at the 1958 World Cup. But he was no one tournament wonder. Fontaine’s goal scoring record during his club career in France was an incredible 165 goals in 200 appearances, helping himself to two league titles along the way. He was strong with both feet, great in the air and could have added even more to his extraordinary stats had injuries not cut short his career.
 
Cutch's team is amazing, but I really like Kazi's writeup here which is keeping him alive for the time being, looking forward to see how this will continue
 
Fantastic write-up @Kazi :lol:

I see your major strength coming down the wings with Matthews and Gento. But they are coming up against the type of full-backs wingers never want to come up against. They’re coming up against centre-backs. Centre-backs with bite. Centre-back with greatest positional sense and awareness than your average full-back.
Brilliant!
 
I actually don't think Kazi stands a chance here with scan voters, I'm not sure why the midfield trio is so close to each other in the graphic and scan voters love the esthetic formation.
Plus, Kazi you say Cutch's attack is underwhelming, that's true, but I don't think the trio of Landa-Bale-Klinsmann is better at any way.
The only route to goal I see here from Kazi is via Iniesta with a through ball to Klinsmann or Bale, or maybe maybe a bursting run forward from Robson..
I'm not really sure what's Cutch's best route to goal, which makes me wonder if he will score here.

A 0-0 draw looks really likely here, with Cutch controlling the match but Kazi having a close chance or two
 
Interesting write up from kazi. Cutch had drafted a excellent team.

  • Your team’s old. Will they really be able to keep up with my modern team. These guys are supreme athletes. Nilton Santos is one of the great left-backs, but will his 1950s ass really be able to keep up with Gareth Bale? A Gareth Bale that probably bench presses 140kg and runs 100 metres in 10.5 seconds? There is too much talent and too much pure athleticism for my lot not to overwhelm you."
IMO, older players are much better dealing with the game than the current players,today's player had been aided lot a with tech,better pitch and better ball etc those days you don't have those but still player performed.
 
I actually don't think Kazi stands a chance here with scan voters, I'm not sure why the midfield trio is so close to each other in the graphic and scan voters love the esthetic formation.
Plus, Kazi you say Cutch's attack is underwhelming, that's true, but I don't think the trio of Landa-Bale-Klinsmann is better at any way.
The only route to goal I see here from Kazi is via Iniesta with a through ball to Klinsmann or Bale, or maybe maybe a bursting run forward from Robson..
I'm not really sure what's Cutch's best route to goal, which makes me wonder if he will score here.

A 0-0 draw looks really likely here, with Cutch controlling the match but Kazi having a close chance or two

I'm sorry but in what world are Paco Gento, Just Fontaine and Stanley Matthews with Sir Bobby Charlton coming from deep an underwhelming attack? :lol:
 
I'm sorry but in what world are Paco Gento, Just Fontaine and Stanley Matthews with Sir Bobby Charlton coming from deep an underwhelming attack? :lol:
Underwhelming was a bad use of my vocabulary :lol:
What I ment is that he's defense is really capable against that attack in terms of personnel imo, nothing bad about the attackers obviously
 
Underwhelming was a bad use of my vocabulary :lol:
What I ment is that he's defense is really capable against that attack in terms of personnel imo, nothing bad about the attackers obviously

Do you think Frank De Boer, a player notably lacking in pace, has the tools to handle Stanley Matthews, one of the fastest and finest widemen to have played the game? Will Ramos keep his discipline against the flying Gento. Where is the protection then from my 2 galloping fullbacks going forward also joining the attack? Javier Zanetti inparticular has the freedom of the park.
 
These 2 statements from Kazi:

Overall superior fitness of the team will allow them to be patient and take control in the latter stages / strike late on in a tight game
Your team’s old. Will they really be able to keep up with my modern team. These guys are supreme athletes. Nilton Santos is one of the great left-backs, but will his 1950s ass really be able to keep up with Gareth Bale? A Gareth Bale that probably bench presses 140kg and runs 100 metres in 10.5 seconds? There is too much talent and too much pure athleticism for my lot not to overwhelm you.

What a load of rubbish. That is all.
 
Do you think Frank De Boer, a player notably lacking in pace, has the tools to handle Stanley Matthews, one of the fastest and finest widemen to have played the game? Will Ramos keep his discipline against the flying Gento. Where is the protection then from my 2 galloping fullbacks going forward also joining the attack? Javier Zanetti inparticular has the freedom of the park.
Personally I rate dBoer quite highly, I hate how underrated he gets in these drafts. The way I see it, Zanetti & Santos are Kazi's problem, I get the concept that CBs who can play as limited full backs might be good against wingers, and I'll add to that the fact that I think Scirea & T.Silva are really smart and strong in a way they can both mark(not mark-out of course) Fontaine while occasionally help with a winger if he beats his marker, but as you say, Puppi and Santos' bursting on that wing is something I'm not sure he'll be able to handle. The thing is, Kazi is in a bit of a mess here - order Bale & Landa to track back a lot to cover for the full backs and try limit their influence on the game but lose most of his chance to have any threat here..

To be fair, I'm not too sure about Schweinsteiger's role here. I disagree with the latest consensus that Schweinsteiger can make any midfield tick, he has a lot to do here with Sir Bobby which will stop him from moving as forward as much as he wants.

Anyway, need to do some more thinking.
 
To be fair, I'm not too sure about Schweinsteiger's role here. I disagree with the latest consensus that Schweinsteiger can make any midfield tick, he has a lot to do here with Sir Bobby which will stop him from moving as forward as much as he wants.
He doesn't necessarily want to though, see the World Cup final as an example. That's Schweinsteiger at his best for the nationalteam.

2014-07-13_Deutschland-Argentinien_zweite-HZ.png

Even with Khedira instead of Kroos or Özil, it was usually Schweinsteiger alone at the back and both Robson and Sir Bobby offer more defensively than his midfield partners for Germany ever did. The game against Brazil is the perfect example, he has no problem doing all the running and the dirty work while Khedira runs forward all the time, Schweinsteiger's absolutely fantastic doing that actually.

Brasilien-Deutschland.png
 
He doesn't necessarily want to though, see the World Cup final as an example. That's Schweinsteiger at his best for the nationalteam.

2014-07-13_Deutschland-Argentinien_zweite-HZ.png

Even with Khedira instead of Kroos or Özil, it was usually Schweinsteiger alone at the back and both Robson and Sir Bobby offer more defensively than his midfield partners for Germany ever did. The game against Brazil is the perfect example, he has no problem doing all the running and the dirty work while Khedira runs forward all the time, Schweinsteiger's absolutely fantastic doing that actually.

Brasilien-Deutschland.png
Interesting, but I just don't see Kazi's team playing anywhere near how Germany played in the last WC, far from it really.
 
I don't like the argument that old players aren't fit enough ergo modern day player is better.We see that shit from the less knowledgeable posters on the caf.. we should rise above that in draft matches in my opinion.

Guys like Didi for example were tanks and Gento is ridiculously athletic .. so quick and agile. He'd make Ramos look silly.
 
Interesting, but I just don't see Kazi's team playing anywhere near how Germany played in the last WC, far from it really.
Why? The set-up is pretty similar. Bale adding runs in behind the defense and goals like Müller does for Germany, Klinsmann is an obvious upgrade on Klose. Fair enough, Landa is a bit of a problem, but Özil/Schürrle/Götze from the left wing weren't really key roles. Robson played the game similar to Khedira/Kramer just so much better and Iniesta as the central playmaker instead of Kroos/Özil.

What's so different? Germany at the World even played with 4 centerbacks a few times :lol:
 
Why? The set-up is pretty similar. Bale adding runs in behind the defense and goals like Müller does for Germany, Klinsmann is an obvious upgrade on Klose. Fair enough, Landa is a bit of a problem, but Özil/Schürrle/Götze from the left wing weren't really key roles. Robson played the game similar to Khedira/Kramer just so much better and Iniesta as the central playmaker instead of Kroos/Özil.

What's so different? Germany at the World even played with 4 centerbacks a few times :lol:
Germany has it's way of possession and quick and very impressive transitions from back to front, I don't see Kazi maintaining possession in any way like Germany does, Robson is a completely different player than Kroos is, Lahm is really important to Germany's setup too and I just think Kazi won't have any player keeping possession from the back and starting the attacks out of defense like Germany does, Scirea can obviously do a job here, but Germany is filled with players good on the ball, Kazi doesn't have it as much. With that, plus Landa's obvious weakness(which screwed Kazi sideways), I just can't see Kazi controlling the pace of this match.
 
The one criticism I have in @Cutch 's team is Bozsik's role. He was much more of a withdrawn attacking midfielder, similar to Didi, maybe a bit comparable to Xavi. He was slow, loved playing short passes with the game surounding him. He could put a shift in, no doubt, but I don't think you'd want him to play so deep. I don't think Simeone is the perfect partner for him here, but I'd at least limit Simeone to more of a holding role behind Bozsik, especially when you want your fullbacks to make runs forward. Nilton will run through that midfield anyway all the time. I know you went for Makelele, he would have been fantastic.
 
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Germany has it's way of possession and quick and very impressive transitions from back to front, I don't see Kazi maintaining possession in any way like Germany does, Robson is a completely different player than Kroos is, Lahm is really important to Germany's setup too and I just think Kazi won't have any player keeping possession from the back and starting the attacks out of defense like Germany does, Scirea can obviously do a job here, but Germany is filled with players good on the ball, Kazi doesn't have it as much. With that, plus Landa's obvious weakness(which screwed Kazi sideways), I just can't see Kazi controlling the pace of this match.
Robson was better on the ball and as direct as Khedira/Kramer are. Scirea, Silva, Schweinsteiger, Iniesta are all comfortable in possession. I don't think Germany was as possession oriented as you make it sound anyway. We were quite happy to sit back and soak up pressure against France after we took an early lead for example. Of course Lahm was important for our team, but he didn't define our playing style. I'm not even sure we had one, we mixed it up a lot.

That's a bit off topic now anyway, the point was Schweinsteiger fits in there perfectly. He can adapt to all the midfield roles and all the different styles, but I'd say the one he's playing here is pretty much his best one, or at least one in which he had some of his most iconic performances.
 
Robson is better on the ball and as direct as Khedira/Kramer were. Scirea, Silva, Schweinsteiger, Iniesta are all comfortable in possession. I don't think Germany was as possession oriented as you make it sound anyway. We were quite happy to sit back and soak up pressure against France after we took an early lead for example. Of course Lahm was important for our team, but he didn't define our playing style. I'm not even sure we had one, we mixed it up a lot.
I do think Lahm's influence is more important to that side than you make of it, but I guess you have better idea of Germany's shape throughout the years. I agree with you that the ability to mix it up is one of Germany's strengths as opposed to Spain's "Plan A and that's it", I just don't see Kazi's team mixing it up against a team like Cutch's.
 
I do think Lahm's influence is more important to that side than you make of it, but I guess you have better idea of Germany's shape throughout the years. I agree with you that the ability to mix it up is one of Germany's strengths as opposed to Spain's "Plan A and that's it", I just don't see Kazi's team mixing it up against a team like Cutch's.
That's more down to Cutch's team than Schweinsteiger's role in Kazi's though ;)
 
The one criticism I have in @Cutch 's team is Bozsik's role. He was much more of a withdrawn attacking midfielder, similar to Didi, maybe a bit comparable to Xavi. He was slow, loved playing short passes with the game surounding him. He could put a shift in, no doubt, but I don't think you'd want him to play so deep. I don't think Simeone is the perfect partner for him here, but I'd at least limit Simeone to more of a holding role behind Bozsik, especially when you want your fullbacks to make runs forward. Nilton will run through that midfield anyway all the time. I know you went for Makelele, he would have been fantastic.

Bozsik was a deep lying playmaker though, and a half back for Hungary so this is the part of the pitch you would want him operating. Startin attacks from deep with his range of passing but also carrying the ball forward from here. I thought about positioning Simeone alongside but didn't want it to look like I was limiting him to like a holding Makelele type job. He would be quite conservative in this particular setup though and obviously filling in for Bozsik when he's on the attack so that they don't go too hung ho.
 
I very much understood and liked that depiction. An acknowledgement that Simeone was b2b and could influence both phases, but also making it clear he has to keep an eye on both phases and act accordingly. I do think he is the sort that actually would work in that role, he wouldn't have a bias towards either job, his only objective was winning.

Edit: err, just noticed the formation was changed slightly, particularly re: Bozsik. I agree with Balu @Cutch, I preferred the slanted/staggered triangle posted on the main thread.
 
Damn I'm getting hammered.

I didn't say Cutch's attack was underwhelming, I said his team would get overwhelmed by a mixture of talent and athleticism possessed in my team.
 
Stuff of legends man. Best writeup, I've seen till now. Brilliant

Kazi said:
I mean, who gets second place at the Ballon d’Or while playing for Tottenham?

You’ve been quoted as having the ‘best team in the draft’ (Raees 2015, p.84) and an ‘amazing’ team (NM 2015, p.84).

But they are coming up against the type of full-backs wingers never want to come up against.

Your team’s old.

I really like Kazi team here. Unfortunate he had to come against Cutch. Cutch, Viva and NM are fielding final ready teams and pity those who come against them. Not just you, but these 3 will steamroller any opponent till finals. I hope they get to face each other and we can be rid of one team at least next round.
 
The whole age/fitness thing is maybe a bit of a cheap shot, but I was struggling to find weaknesses in Cutch's team. Although, it'd be interesting to see how the midfield battle would play out, and other individual battles such as Bale vs Santos.
 
Went for Kazi. Cutch has the best team in the draft, but his midfield lacks graft and may get caught cold by an aggressive, compact, counter-attacking unit. That may or may not happen here, but it's more likely than a 3/20 chance.
 
Yeah I'm buying it. Defend deep so there's no space behind De Boer and Ramos for the wingers to exploit. Landa and Simeone end up arguing in Spanish, scrapping and both get sent off. Cutch's midfield loses all balance, while Kazi's loses nothing. Klinsmann produces a superhuman line-leading performance reminiscent of West Germany v Holland in Italia '90. That enables Bale to outstrip Nilton on the counter to secure the only goal of the match. Textbook smash-and-grab.
 
All of my back four are really good on the ball - Ramos almost plays as a regista most of the time for Real these days in games they're dominating. As soon as they win the ball back, they all have the ability to find Klinsmann with that long ball over the top.
 
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Yeah I'm buying it. Defend deep so there's no space behind De Boer and Ramos for the wingers to exploit. Landa and Simeone end up arguing in Spanish, scrapping and both get sent off. Cutch's midfield loses all balance, while Kazi's loses nothing. Klinsmann produces a superhuman line-leading performance reminiscent of West Germany v Holland in Italia '90. That enables Bale to outstrip Nilton on the counter to secure the only goal of the match. Textbook smash-and-grab.
:lol:
 
Landa scored 8 in 16 for Chile! That's a better strike rate than Messi, Ronaldo and Maradona.
 
Cracking OP from Kazi and I love the balance of that midfield, particularly Captain Marvel with Iniesta - Cutch's team is fantastic though, you were unlucky to draw him really.

For Cutch I don't see too many weaknesses at all and I like Boszik in that role. Awesome team.