Who do your reckon is better?
Senna vss Shoemaker vss Prost
- Thread starter vijay
- Start date
vijay said:
Senna
I would go with Senna as well.
Agree. Schumacher would not have been where he is now, If not for Senna's untimely death and Hakkinnen running away,
It's not just that, it's just that Senna embodied everything that makes F1 what it is. He didn't always have the best car but you always knew that Senna would be a danger.
Schumi
I'd go with Schumacher, Senna, Prost - in that order.
Looking Busy said:
A cheat you mean?
Yeah same as Keane16.
Senna and Prost were hard to decide tho.
Senna and Prost were hard to decide tho.
Senna...
him and fangio had car controll the others could never match...
also he had stones like bricks... he used to go almost as quick inthe wet as in the dry (without any driver aids)
him and fangio had car controll the others could never match...
also he had stones like bricks... he used to go almost as quick inthe wet as in the dry (without any driver aids)
So what were you guys doing the day Senna died.
I remember that day vividly. I watched him go off the track. Next thing, he's dead.
A sad day
Ill never forgive Schumacher for driving into Hill in Australia. Cheating cnut as far as I'm concerned. He's not as good as Senna, although he did prove something that rainy day in Barca.
I remember that day vividly. I watched him go off the track. Next thing, he's dead.
A sad day
Ill never forgive Schumacher for driving into Hill in Australia. Cheating cnut as far as I'm concerned. He's not as good as Senna, although he did prove something that rainy day in Barca.
I remember senna and prost taking each other off in japan a couple of times...
schumacher showed how good he was for me when he was stuck in 5th gear for 20+ laps of a grand prix... still not in the same class as senna though.
schumacher showed how good he was for me when he was stuck in 5th gear for 20+ laps of a grand prix... still not in the same class as senna though.
Keane16 said:
What I meant was that he had personality and flair. The thing that swings it for me is Senna's will to win. I remember seeing himself commiting to hitting the wall just the otherside of the finish line at Monaco to make pole. That's commitment for you
Senna. In terms of driving, I don't think Schumacher is in the same league as the other two.
Looking Busy said:
I rememeber seeing him intentionally ram Prost off the road at 150mph, for the simple reason that he didn't agree with the fact that he was there.....the result of which was that Senna won the World Championship. That's cheating for you.
Keane16 said:
And Schumacher taking Hill of in Australia? That's not cheating. I believe the result in there was that Schumi won the world title that year as well
Looking Busy said:
Agreed
vijay said:
Fanzio
I'd say Schumacher although if I'm honest I've never seen Senna or Prost but Schumacher has won the world championship more times than any other driver so thats why he gets my vote, also I've only been watching F1 since 1998 and in that time he is the best driver I've seen even when Hakinnen was in F1.
Mick is an animal. He's lost some fire though, that's very clear. Would he get it back with increased competitiveness from the motor?...I reckon yes.
Just watched Senna....excellent view.....how do you lot think Senna would of done in the F1 car of today?
Great film.
Senna detractors can always claim he's overrated by his death but I think it works both ways because the further away his death gets the more people will always assume this is true automatically. One thing you can't say about Senna is that he was only called the greatest once he died. He was being called the greatest from his third title untill his death. I was watching some old BBC footage of Imola only yesterday (I too saw Senna recently) and Murray Walker refers to him as such only a few hours after his death so the idea a lot of his praise is later romantic revisionism is bollocks. I could be wrong, but I don't think either Prost or Schumacher were being touted as the GOAT after their third championships, and Senna's still the 3rd highest GP winner (and with almost half the race entries of Schumacher or Prost) and the youngest ever triple Champion.
The problem with films like Senna though is they tend to be hugely (hello pogue) hagiographic. Prost was painted like a dastardly hook nosed villan to Sennas gorgeous saintly hero (despite being a pall bearer at his funeral and a patron of his charity) and Senna's mean streak, including punching Eddie Irvine and generally being dementedly ruthless and arrogantly righteous, was completely airbrushed, or skipped over gently. If anything Top Gear's 10 minute tribute last year was more balanced and well weighed.
Still a fantastic film though. I watched it on a plane out last week, and then watched it again on the way back, despite there being 3 other things I hadn't seen and wanted to.
The problem with films like Senna though is they tend to be hugely (hello pogue) hagiographic. Prost was painted like a dastardly hook nosed villan to Sennas gorgeous saintly hero (despite being a pall bearer at his funeral and a patron of his charity) and Senna's mean streak, including punching Eddie Irvine and generally being dementedly ruthless and arrogantly righteous, was completely airbrushed, or skipped over gently. If anything Top Gear's 10 minute tribute last year was more balanced and well weighed.
Still a fantastic film though. I watched it on a plane out last week, and then watched it again on the way back, despite there being 3 other things I hadn't seen and wanted to.
Schumacher for me. He took F1 to another level beyond just a racing driver.
Senna was a more exciting driver but he wasn't the complete package. Senna was a magician at pulling something from nothing in qualifying, but his race pace was never something extraordinary and his pole to win ratio was 1/3 which isn't spectacular. He was a fantastic driver in a great era but he's not the greatest for me.
He also lacked the team building qualities of Schumacher. He never sought to rebuild McLaren after they started to lose pace, only to look at the next best which happened to be Williams. He was in effect stuck at McLaren in 1993 because of a clause in Prost contract.
Schumacher changed the way drivers could compete. You couldn't be some pudgy bloke with moustache from the West midlands, getting out of the car ringing with about 40 billion pounds of sweat. He trained meticulously 3-4 hours a day for his first career 'even more if reports are believe for his comeback' and had dieticians and all sorts constantly checking his health to make sure he was 100%.
He was also extremely dedicated to making sure he had everything he needed when getting in the car. He doesn't leave any stone unturned. A guy from Pirelli on the weekend was talking about Vettel and his approach to racing and how fantastic it was with all the questions he asks from the tyre guys, but he also mentioned that there was only one other driver on the grid that matches Vettels approach to racing and he was "older and alot more successful".
While Senna was super human, Schumacher was a living breathing machine. He had his flaws like anybody else, but he did more to overcome them and make sure that he was victorious most of the time. Schumacher probably could have had another couple of titles in 07 and 08, but I think the effort it took to get the 2006 car on top again burnt him out.
Given his recent form, I'm looking forward to watching him compete next year because he's hitting fantastic form. I wouldn't put it past him being there or there abouts next year.
Senna was a more exciting driver but he wasn't the complete package. Senna was a magician at pulling something from nothing in qualifying, but his race pace was never something extraordinary and his pole to win ratio was 1/3 which isn't spectacular. He was a fantastic driver in a great era but he's not the greatest for me.
He also lacked the team building qualities of Schumacher. He never sought to rebuild McLaren after they started to lose pace, only to look at the next best which happened to be Williams. He was in effect stuck at McLaren in 1993 because of a clause in Prost contract.
Schumacher changed the way drivers could compete. You couldn't be some pudgy bloke with moustache from the West midlands, getting out of the car ringing with about 40 billion pounds of sweat. He trained meticulously 3-4 hours a day for his first career 'even more if reports are believe for his comeback' and had dieticians and all sorts constantly checking his health to make sure he was 100%.
He was also extremely dedicated to making sure he had everything he needed when getting in the car. He doesn't leave any stone unturned. A guy from Pirelli on the weekend was talking about Vettel and his approach to racing and how fantastic it was with all the questions he asks from the tyre guys, but he also mentioned that there was only one other driver on the grid that matches Vettels approach to racing and he was "older and alot more successful".
While Senna was super human, Schumacher was a living breathing machine. He had his flaws like anybody else, but he did more to overcome them and make sure that he was victorious most of the time. Schumacher probably could have had another couple of titles in 07 and 08, but I think the effort it took to get the 2006 car on top again burnt him out.
Given his recent form, I'm looking forward to watching him compete next year because he's hitting fantastic form. I wouldn't put it past him being there or there abouts next year.
Sums up my view entirely really.
Watch his 92 race at Monaco, The 93 Grand Prix at Donnington to name but a few and tell me he wasn't a complete driver. Look at his performance with the cars of that era in the rain in particular too.I used to love watching Senna as a kid and he was definitely a sporting hero of mine so maybe my view is a little biased....
Whilst Senna was no angel when it came to playing dirty Schumacher was a cheat and a blatant one. He was also a very sore loser. I disagree about him being a "team builder" as surely a lot of Ferrari's successes are down to the fantastic work of Ross Brawn?
Hypothetical I know but I firmly believe Schuey would of not won as many World Championships had Senna lived on.
The fact that most of his peers (except maybe Prost :P) and most of the F1 drivers now say he was the greatest pretty much says it all.
Every F1 fan should watch Senna the movie as it is a fantastic film.
Considering Schumacher finished only 1 point ahead of Hill in 94, and then by crashing him off the track, it's fair to say that Senna, in the same car, polling 1st in all 3 races that year before his death, could've well won the 94 championship once he'd sorted out the car. He would've also likely won the 96&97 ones that went to Hill & Villeneurve if he'd stayed at Williams, because he was a far superior driver to both of them, probably combined. That would've (hypothetically) put him on 6 titles, taking the one away from Schumacher in 94 & leaving him (hypothetically) on 6 too. At the very least an alive Senna would be level on titles with Schumacher in hypothetics. Add in the fact that he was naturally and aesthetically the better driver and it clinches it.
It's hypothetical, but I'm sticking to it.
It's hypothetical, but I'm sticking to it.
Is this after the FIA did everything in their power to reduce the massive point total he amassed that season? Excluded from 2 races for some bullshit penalty... Damon had 2 extra races that season! 4 if you include the British GP and Spa!
What bullshit? They were proven to have been using an illegal fuel valve that re-fuelled quicker than all the other cars. It was patently obvious they were cheating. If anything the British GP incident was Karma for their skullduggery.
Factor in the fact that Senna was robbed of the '89 title (or at least a fair chance at it - yes he crashed in Australia, but he was angry & considered pulling out anyway, who knows how it would've gone had the result in Japan stood..It was raining too) and he's now ahead on hypothetical titles.
Factor in the fact that Senna was robbed of the '89 title (or at least a fair chance at it - yes he crashed in Australia, but he was angry & considered pulling out anyway, who knows how it would've gone had the result in Japan stood..It was raining too) and he's now ahead on hypothetical titles.
Watched the Senna film the other day and I am now convinced he was the greatest.
You mean cars with active suspension etc? Senna had fantastic drives like you mentioned. He was for me a better outright driver then Schumacher, but he didn't have many things schumacher possessed which lead to some very poor results. Alot like Hamilton except with a switched on brain 85% of the time not 50% of the time.
Senna was no different at all to Schumacher and it's exactly the reason Michael was like he was. He was an old school driver much like Prost and Senna, shoved into a new age PC system. In the end however, he made 2 massive errors of judgement in his career. Jerez and Monaco. I don't expect to get any support on my theory of Adelaide 94, but putting it bluntly, Hill was as stupid as Michael was when it came to that.
As for the success, look at the current Mercedes GP team and tell me Brawn was the mastermind? Ferrari was a team which was made up of fantastic names like Bryne, Brawn, Todt and Stepney, but it was driven by the main cog that was Michael Schumacher. You put any other driver in his position and none would come close to what he achieved. Even Alonso won't touch his level of intensity and effort.
I love this quote "Never think that success is down to your own performance alone. If you start listening only to yourself you take the first step back towards the bottom. The flowers of victory belong in many vases."
Do not forget that Senna was 34 when he died. He probably had 3 seasons left at best and 1 and a half in his absolute prime. Schumacher also did the vast majority of his winning in the late 90's early 2000's.
Senna would have been lucky to get another 2 titles. 1994 and 1996 were probably his best bet. In saying that, if he didn't die the FIA wouldn't have gone out of their way to penalize Michael like they did so it's questionable whether he would have won in 94. In 95 Schumacher was much like Vettel was this year with that second title so I doubt Senna would beat him but 96 would have been a shoe in. So he would have won 4 maybe 5 titles.
Even Schumacher admits that Senna was a better driver, but he lives by a Philosophy that Fangio took. "You must strive to be the best, but never believe you are the best"
It really isn't though. Yes it is nostalgic, but it's clipped together with doctored quotes and plot line that takes everything good away from that time in f1. It tries to paint Senna as a demi god with Prost as the bad guy. It should have been about Senna and his amazing career, not Senna v Prost. I would also have loved to have seen more of his life outside F1 like his charity support and early life. Things that made me admire him alot more then your average driver.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching it, but it's not fantastic for factual content.
I must say I love this debate. I don't think there is any right or wrong answer, everybody has an opinion on the matter. I don't like that people tarnish Michael with the cheat brush especially looking at everything he's done however. They are the two best drivers in my opinion to exist.
Cool.
The 2 race ban after Spa for the skid block was a crock. Yes exclude him from Spa, but they took advantage of the penalty and ban him for 2 races to spice the title up. I also don't think that drivers should be penalized. We all know that the money is made in constructors so do what the did in 07.
Sums up my view entirely really.
I used to love watching Senna as a kid and he was definitely a sporting hero of mine so maybe my view is a little biased....
Whilst Senna was no angel when it came to playing dirty Schumacher was a cheat and a blatant one. He was also a very sore loser. I disagree about him being a "team builder" as surely a lot of Ferrari's successes are down to the fantastic work of Ross Brawn?
Hypothetical I know but I firmly believe Schuey would of not won as many World Championships had Senna lived on.
The fact that most of his peers (except maybe Prost :P) and most of the F1 drivers now say he was the greatest pretty much says it all.
Every F1 fan should watch Senna the movie as it is a fantastic film.
Observation:
To be fair to marchi, he said "Senna was far from the complete package" and you saying "Senna was the complete driver". Those are two different things. I think marchi admits in his initial post that Senna was the most talented driver but not the complete package. There's a difference here.
PS: I'm not getting involved here. I don't believe one can really say who was better if they didn't compete against one another. I can for example say Senna was better than Prost, because they competed against each other at the height of their careers.
Marchi did you watch the extended edition of the Senna Movie?
I like this debate as well as it provokes interesting discussion and I like to hear other people's views on it.
Both drivers deserve a place in the pantheon of F1 greats though. Even if I disliked Schuey in his pomp you'd have to be an utter moron to not acknowledge his talent.
I like this debate as well as it provokes interesting discussion and I like to hear other people's views on it.
Both drivers deserve a place in the pantheon of F1 greats though. Even if I disliked Schuey in his pomp you'd have to be an utter moron to not acknowledge his talent.
Senna.
I haven't seen too much of Senna or Prost and to be honest, even if you have, you don't know all the facts unless you're told (like how the driver is in terms of feeling the car and helping the team improve it). But I've been reading a Senna biography in the last couple of weeks that gave me a good insight into his character.
I have to say, from everything I know, Senna was probably the best pure driver. Just put him into a car and tell him to race his brains out - He was the best at it. But as a package, a race winning, title winning, package, he wasn't the best.
That's probably partially why he won so many pole positions (just go out there and be the quickest) but far fewer races, when you need to think a little more and sometimes race a little less, save your car and rubber, etc. And it cost him races, maybe titles. He might have had those abilities, but his racing instinct overpowered them - not always to his benefit.
So, Senna for pure driver, not for actual driver. Schumacher or Prost? I don't know. Obviously Schumacher in my time, but I can't compare him to Prost.
I have to say, from everything I know, Senna was probably the best pure driver. Just put him into a car and tell him to race his brains out - He was the best at it. But as a package, a race winning, title winning, package, he wasn't the best.
That's probably partially why he won so many pole positions (just go out there and be the quickest) but far fewer races, when you need to think a little more and sometimes race a little less, save your car and rubber, etc. And it cost him races, maybe titles. He might have had those abilities, but his racing instinct overpowered them - not always to his benefit.
So, Senna for pure driver, not for actual driver. Schumacher or Prost? I don't know. Obviously Schumacher in my time, but I can't compare him to Prost.
Senna. No question about that.
Prost & Schumacher have both said as much.
Prost & Schumacher have both said as much.
I don't know why, but I've always had the suspicion Schumacher did this to be diplomatic. They asked everyone and they all said Senna and he sort of went along with it..That's completely hypothetical and in my head, and going off a 2 second clip of him saying it, but I'm not so sure he really does put Senna above himself.
Incidentally there's a great interview with Prost about Senna here: Ayrton Senna by Alain Prost The one thing that's always annoyed me about Senna docs is their near universal insistence on painting Prost as a cnut when he was clearly a nice and intelligent man and Senna as a straight talking saint when he was clearly a little batshit & very self righteous. Prost comes off very well, honest & considered here.
Senna
watching footage of him is incredible, he pushed the car to extremes and the control he had was superb. he embodied everything of an incredible racing driver
watching footage of him is incredible, he pushed the car to extremes and the control he had was superb. he embodied everything of an incredible racing driver
Senna was the best racer, Schumacher was the best F1 driver & Prost was the best politician.
Thats not to belittle any of them, Senna was an incredible racer who raced from the heart, if he saw a gap he was never gonna back out of it and on a single lap he was just out of this world.
Schumacher built a team around himself that nearly won out of the box but once it clicked he dominated F1 to the point of bordem, brilliant work ethic and when the chips were down he usually delivered. I'm not gonna hold his comeback against him because anybody over 40 in F1 who can match and beat guys half his age is obviously very talented. Schumacher for me gets credit for moving from an on form top team to a off form top team and relishing the challenge.
Prost had a beautiful style and a proper head on his shoulders, he knew how to get his own way most of the time and he raced with his head and not his heart.
You could pick any of the three and most peoples choices will be based on their age with the odd exception of F1 nuts.
Thats not to belittle any of them, Senna was an incredible racer who raced from the heart, if he saw a gap he was never gonna back out of it and on a single lap he was just out of this world.
Schumacher built a team around himself that nearly won out of the box but once it clicked he dominated F1 to the point of bordem, brilliant work ethic and when the chips were down he usually delivered. I'm not gonna hold his comeback against him because anybody over 40 in F1 who can match and beat guys half his age is obviously very talented. Schumacher for me gets credit for moving from an on form top team to a off form top team and relishing the challenge.
Prost had a beautiful style and a proper head on his shoulders, he knew how to get his own way most of the time and he raced with his head and not his heart.
You could pick any of the three and most peoples choices will be based on their age with the odd exception of F1 nuts.