Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Raoul said:
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There was no legitimate referendum in Crimea. It was literally conducted at gunpoint with Russian troops walking the streets. This is why Crimea is still considered Ukrainian territory (or at best contested territory).



Precisely. The world is a dominance hierarchy and the most powerful state can do what it wants with little to no repercussions. Those below it do have to deal with the repercussions of their actions, and in the case of Russia, it will have to deal with not just the US, but a galvanized NATO who don't want authoritarian with nukes threatening their borders.
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Legitimate elections in Afghanistan occupied by US. Yeah right, as US didn't have any influence from occupying to financing campaigns and deciding who would be presented. Are you serious? do you believe that it was legitimate?

You assume that Russia will have to deal with US and NATO. I am sure that Russia will get what they are looking for. Ukraine or at least part of its territory further apart from NATO, because is the only thing that they are looking, like US retired from Afghanistan because they never wanted to stay, only influence in the area

Russia will make prevail their dominance in their area of influence, so you will be happy with the outcome
 


The Irish have basically said "Don't feck with us as we will go fishing as we fishermen do every day." If Russian Navy vessels get stuck into fishing equipment, I would be having a laugh because they are in no position to say they had not been warned by entering Irish fishing waters.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:


The Irish have basically said "Don't feck with us as we will go fishing as we fishermen do every day." If Russian Navy vessels get stuck into fishing equipment, I would be having a laugh because they are in no position to say they had not been warned by entering Irish fishing waters.
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Probably won't feel so tough when they're 150 miles out in international water and faced with several Russian frigates :lol:
 
Smores said:
Probably won't feel so tough when they're 150 miles out in international water and faced with several Russian frigates :lol:
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one russian radio transmission and at least half are crapping themselves on the boat and doing a full reversal.
 
Raoul said:
Precisely. The world is a dominance hierarchy and the most powerful state can do what it wants with little to no repercussions. Those below it do have to deal with the repercussions of their actions, and in the case of Russia, it will have to deal with not just the US, but a galvanized NATO who don't want authoritarian with nukes threatening their borders.
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Would you feel the same way when China takes this mantle ?
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:


The Irish have basically said "Don't feck with us as we will go fishing as we fishermen do every day." If Russian Navy vessels get stuck into fishing equipment, I would be having a laugh because they are in no position to say they had not been warned by entering Irish fishing waters.
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On tonights episode of Deadliest Catch: Watch how Paddy reels in his biggest and angriest Russian warship of his career.
 
nickm said:
I dunno, as a European I don't want Russia thinking they can impose their will on European democracies. Ultimately you can sit here and make what sound like smart remarks about Russia == USA because of South America or something, or you can recognise that values are at the centre of it. What values should we preserve and what values do we defend? A European Democracy is being threatened with invasion and occupation by a dictatorship. Where do you stand on that?
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I despise what Putin and his government stands for, what I'm saying is that the "West" has done the same in the recent past (unsanctioned wars / invasions / planting puppet governments etc) and that we should get off our high horse.
 
Denis79 said:
I despise what Putin and his government stands for, what I'm saying is that the "West" has done the same in the recent past (unsanctioned wars / invasions / planting puppet governments etc) and that we should get off our high horse.
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It's entirely possible to think both things are true. I think the issue at hand here is a section of people who cannot bring themselves to criticise Russia without deflecting back onto the west. When America invaded Afghanistan were the Russians silent about this because they in living memory also invaded the same nation? No, they were on their high horse and history says rightly. Maybe from their own experience of a decade long battle which wrecked their finances and ended with their tails between their legs.

I don't understand why some people are so quick and giddy to critique western policy while do whataboutery when it is Russia. One of the most common critiques which I agree on US policy making is the massive military build up which is not needed and especially when poverty and citizen suffering is rife. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had way more impact on the Cold War going the west's way than Reagan's Star Wars program because the Soviets decimated themselves in Afghanistan. It's interesting how rarely that is said about Russia when it is easily applicable. Putin has been in power for so long and militaristic policy has far dwarfed anything he has achieved to better standard of living for his own people.
 
IDK why everyone is getting so hyped. I don't think Russia is going to invade anyone.

Also I'd bet my house that if they did, NATO will not be taking any military action against Russia.
 
Denis79 said:
I despise what Putin and his government stands for, what I'm saying is that the "West" has done the same in the recent past (unsanctioned wars / invasions / planting puppet governments etc) and that we should get off our high horse.
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The phrasing in that post: dismissing "South America or whatever" while capitalising "European Democracy" says all you need to know - some democracies and countries matter, others don't, and whatever happens in lesser countries isn't meaningful in understanding "values" or Important Politics.
 
Boycott said:
It's entirely possible to think both things are true. I think the issue at hand here is a section of people who cannot bring themselves to criticise Russia without deflecting back onto the west. When America invaded Afghanistan were the Russians silent about this because they in living memory also invaded the same nation? No, they were on their high horse and history says rightly. Maybe from their own experience of a decade long battle which wrecked their finances and ended with their tails between their legs.

I don't understand why some people are so quick and giddy to critique western policy while do whataboutery when it is Russia. One of the most common critiques which I agree on US policy making is the massive military build up which is not needed and especially when poverty and citizen suffering is rife. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had way more impact on the Cold War going the west's way than Reagan's Star Wars program because the Soviets decimated themselves in Afghanistan. It's interesting how rarely that is said about Russia when it is easily applicable. Putin has been in power for so long and militaristic policy has far dwarfed anything he has achieved to better standard of living for his own people.
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It's not really whataboutery when they're also one of the players here.

If there were no involvement from the western powers/Nato do you think people would still be bringing them up? No of course not so it isn't an excuse or whataboutery.
 
People need to shut up about the US, whataboutism's or not. This is about Ukraine and the Ukranian people being surrounded and indimidated by the personal army of a dictator because them living normal lives threatens his personal corrupt position. He cannot have the Russian people seeing Ukraine prosper after their own revolution, he can't let that happen, thats the gist of it.

I don't see how a full scale invasion can help him now and don't think it'll happen and the Ukranians seem to be applying a keep calm and carry on approach, but at the same time they preparing go-bag's, escape routes and some receiving training on how to fight for their lives and homes if neccesary. Its absolutely terrifying for some, I'm sure.
 
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Smores said:
It's not really whataboutery when they're also one of the players here.

If there were no involvement from the western powers/Nato do you think people would still be bringing them up? No of course not so it isn't an excuse or whataboutery.
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Does the Russian government not have any agency of their own? Is their military hawkishness always and only a reaction to something even when they are clearly the instigators? If the West/NATO did nothing, said nothing, and Russia moved in as they did in Crimea or Georgia would they be blamed? Putin has positioned 100,000 troops on the border and assuming this is just gamesmanship it is strange how in this instance of calling people warmongers that he escapes blame. It's never his fault.
 
The United Russia, the biggest (and the only truly relevant) party in Russia has just officially asked Putin to consider supplying DNR & LNR with weaponry and ammunition.

It’s not a good sign.

*they obviously do already, but it never goes through official channels
 
harms said:
The United Russia, the biggest (and the only truly relevant) party in Russia has just officially asked Putin to consider supplying DNR & LNR with weaponry and ammunition.

It’s not a good sign.

*they obviously do already, but it never goes through official channels
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War by proxy...
 
Denis79 said:
I despise what Putin and his government stands for, what I'm saying is that the "West" has done the same in the recent past (unsanctioned wars / invasions / planting puppet governments etc) and that we should get off our high horse.
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There's not much point in despising something and what they stand for, if you aren't prepared to do something about it, or at least back those who are, even if the actors are imperfect. Otherwise, your values are pointless.
 
harms said:
The United Russia, the biggest (and the only truly relevant) party in Russia has just officially asked Putin to consider supplying DNR & LNR with weaponry and ammunition.

It’s not a good sign.

*they obviously do already, but it never goes through official channels
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Ominous indeed.
 
Boycott said:
Does the Russian government not have any agency of their own? Is their military hawkishness always and only a reaction to something even when they are clearly the instigators? If the West/NATO did nothing, said nothing, and Russia moved in as they did in Crimea or Georgia would they be blamed? Putin has positioned 100,000 troops on the border and assuming this is just gamesmanship it is strange how in this instance of calling people warmongers that he escapes blame. It's never his fault.
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To a certain type, everything is a reaction to something the West has done, and is therefore is the West's fault.
 
berbatrick said:
The phrasing in that post: dismissing "South America or whatever" while capitalising "European Democracy" says all you need to know - some democracies and countries matter, others don't, and whatever happens in lesser countries isn't meaningful in understanding "values" or Important Politics.
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Ah no... good try... but my point was actually about a kind of nihilism -eg those who imply Russia's actions are excused by America's actions in South America and therefore nothing matters and nothing should be done because everyone is ultimately compromised. What matters is the rights & wrongs, the interests and the tradeoffs, of the situation right in front of us, in Europe, and the question it poses for us as democracies in Europe looking at another democracy being intimidated by a dictatorship. What the US did in South America is irrelevant to this.

Don't read too much into me capitalising "European Democracy", if i'd capitalised "Dictatorship" too your argument would collapse, so it's probably not that great an argument..
 
Would Putin look to invade other former Soviet states if he goes through an invasion of Ukraine and succeeded?

Finland next ?
 
ChaddyP said:
Would Putin look to invade other former Soviet states if he goes through an invasion of Ukraine and succeeded?

Finland next ?
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He'd have to go back in time and get the Soviets to invade it first.
 
Raoul said:
No...because its authoritarian. I'm quite ok with the world's most powerful state being democratic.
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That's good that it's a comfort to you.

The states the US has interfered with destroyed over the ages don't take much solace in the illusion of democracy the US two party system brings.

When Ireland was invaded by Britain it was a monarchy, during the the occupation Britain became a democracy. The difference that made here was zero.
 
moses said:
That's good that it's a comfort to you.

The states the US has interfered with destroyed over the ages don't take much solace in the illusion of democracy the US two party system brings.

When Ireland was invaded by Britain it was a monarchy, during the the occupation Britain became a democracy. The difference that made here was zero.
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Yep. It's like all those South American resistance movements which took aid from the Soviet Union. Obviously life in the authoritarian/totalitarian Soviet Union wasn't as good as life in the democratic United States, but what difference did that make when it was the democratic nation which was supporting their oppression?
 
neverdie said:
He'd have to go back in time and get the Soviets to invade it first.
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i know that Finland was never officially part of Soviet Union but i think we can both agree that even though i misspoke there is in fact a deep history between Russian empire/soviet union and Finland. My question still stands , being would he eventually look to go elsewhere after?
 
Boycott said:
It's entirely possible to think both things are true. I think the issue at hand here is a section of people who cannot bring themselves to criticise Russia without deflecting back onto the west. When America invaded Afghanistan were the Russians silent about this because they in living memory also invaded the same nation? No, they were on their high horse and history says rightly. Maybe from their own experience of a decade long battle which wrecked their finances and ended with their tails between their legs.

I don't understand why some people are so quick and giddy to critique western policy while do whataboutery when it is Russia. One of the most common critiques which I agree on US policy making is the massive military build up which is not needed and especially when poverty and citizen suffering is rife. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had way more impact on the Cold War going the west's way than Reagan's Star Wars program because the Soviets decimated themselves in Afghanistan. It's interesting how rarely that is said about Russia when it is easily applicable. Putin has been in power for so long and militaristic policy has far dwarfed anything he has achieved to better standard of living for his own people.
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If Russia would raise the flag of freedom, justice and democracy when US did all that, I would said the same: " Russia better shut the feck up with all that they did, do and will do" . But it seems that usually they keep a low profile with raising the voice very low with a few declarations. They are not trying much to be the good guys, because they are not as not the west.

Is all a massive propaganda doing basically the same with different tactics. If the West would not be involved, no one would criticize the hypocritical stand, therefore is not whataboutism. Whatabaoutism is: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

The issue is pretty similar to what all the big players had been doing for decades and analogies are a pretty accepted part of any argument
 
I'm not sure some French speaking Vikings invasion of Ireland has much baring on modern day politics.
 
nickm said:
To a certain type, everything is a reaction to something the West has done, and is therefore is the West's fault.
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All of which creates a level of apathy and disbelief that winds up working in the favor of Mr. Putin.
 
Then again I don't think we've ever seen anything like Russia invading Ukraine, in terms of the modern weaponry, (dis)intelligence, and cyber-warfare Russis can employ.
 
rcoobc said:
Yeah but 14 years of drone technology and cyber-warfare since then
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Not just that, Russia's military is much stronger in basically every way than it was then. Ukraine doesn't stand a chance, even with western equipment. The only hope they have if it comes to war, is to make it too expensive for the Russian public.
 
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