Exclusively it seems. Your perspective doesn't seem to be particularly holistic to say the least.
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
- Start date
Exclusively it seems. Your perspective doesn't seem to be particularly holistic to say the least.
I think we will see more and more stuff like that in Russia soon.
Never claimed that I do not have a bias. It is a disastrous conflict that I am personally devastated that it is happening. I'm equally devastated for Russian oriented Ukrainians as I am for west oriented Ukrainians. History will judge the events of past 9 or so years.
I’ve seen a clips of Ukrainian army using old equipment. One of them was a First World War machine gun. May even have been a Vickers. Would still be deadly if it’s been kept in good condition.
Can only imagine what information the Western intelligence agencies have on these potential Russian infightings.
Let us hope Prigozhin takes that personally and starts a revenge war inside Russia. Better for everyone if they start killing each other.
Could he do that if he wanted? I doubt those convicts would follow him into a war against Russia
Prigozhin has also many senior mercenaries who were fighting in Africa and Syria for years. I'm pretty sure he has enough loyal men to take some kind of revenge (if that attack was indeed a message to him). But he could also fear Putin too much and do nothing of course. In any case, this hurts Russia.
From Twitter replies; the cafe jumped from a window.
What a pity. Made a mess of the road.
Your post I quoted talked about 'feck all those Russians' and that every single one of them should face repurcussions. That sounds a lot more extreme than just sports, though I also don't think sports and politics should be mixed.
What Israel is doing in Palestine is also ethnic cleansing. Systematically removing/killing innocent civilians while bringing in their own people to change the demographics of the area to accomplish their ultimate goal of taking over that land as their own. Hell, they control Palestinian civilian infrastructure so they don't have to bomb them to destroy them.
Also, lets not forget the US intentionally bombed Iraqi water treatment facilities in the 90's, which lead to a clean water crisis and that killed hundreds of thousands of children.
Americans and British weren't in The Hague because they control it. It's ridiculous to try and defend them with saying they technically aren't convicted of it because they never would have.
Standard response when someone calls out hypocrisy.
Well that's because of the power dynamics in the West compared to Russia, and ofcourse the people being attacked are European and not brown or South East Asian commies.
It has nothing to do with race. Its primary down to geopolitics and the location of Ukraine vis-a-vis Europe. If Putin were to take Ukraine, he would continue agitating into eastern Europe which would result in another cold war scenario, or worse. That is obviously going to take precedence over some far away, geopolitically less relevant conflict on another continent.
I'm not going to try and defend Israel who persistently commit appalling human rights violations (although it's not technically a war because they already won that and stole the land.) Nor would I try and defend a British or American war crime. The sheer scale of the Russian transgressions is mind blowing though. It's not just some immoral decisions at certain levels, it's their entire strategy. Either way, wherever the bar is, it doesn't matter whether the US should have been banned in the 90s or not - Russia should now. They are actively engaged in genocide. If you disagree with that you're effectively saying "there is no bar".
Very good.
Israel's war against the Palestinian people is also just not some immoral decisions at certain levels, their entire strategy is ethnic cleansing and apartheid. And, Russian attempts at genocide, and their countless war crimes, was not necessary for the ban: The International Olympic Committee recommended a ban of Russian and Belerusian athletes on the 28th of February 2022, four days after the invasion. Note that Belarus isn't even active in the war, though of course they're very friendly with Russia. FIFA and UEFA also banned the Russian national team and all Russian clubs from their competitions on the same date. The clear picture of how far the Russians were willing to go started with Bucha, and while there were reports of big civilian casualties a week into March, it wasn't until the latter half things really started to come out, and then pictures and video footage after the retreat on April 1st.
Going to war itself was enough for Russia, and that is a standard we clearly don't set for ourselves or our allies, so for the vast majority of people it has very little to do with principles. I don't know what the right answer is, but whatever the decision is it should at least not be an easy one. There's also not just a binary choice of ban or no ban, clearly there's a big difference between a Russian playing tennis and a Russian national team competing. You also have the alternative of letting Russian athletes compete, but not under the Russian flag, just as how Russian athletes who didn't get connected to the 2014 doping scandal were allowed. I'm not convinced I see how it helps Ukraine to ban Ian Nepomniachtchi and Daniil Dubov, two opponents of the war, from playing chess. Sergey Karjakin, a supporter of the war, is in contrast banned.
I don't disagree that it's complex, there are double standards, Israel is bad, all that good stuff.
You are distracting from the main issue though which is that countries committing genocide should quite rightly be able to be banned from showing off their sporting prowess in international competitions. "Sport should be above it all" is complete bollocks and this sort of line of arguing doesn't help expose that. Israel not being banned should not preclude Russia from being banned if it is the right thing to do. Which it is.
I've never said that sport should be above it all, because it's just sport. This is about if and how we should punish Russian civilians for action by the Russian state and military. For those who are not in the "feck all Russians" camp, then the two main questions are 1. would it help? and, if yes, 2. are we willing to punish innocent people to achieve this. The answer to 2 would probably depend on what punishment we're talking about (halting or ruining careers, so not quite on the level of Japanese internment camps) vs how much it would help (also not much).
I swear to you that this war between Wagner and the Russian MOD will reach another level of feck-up that is far more destructive for one country's own military power than the way the Imperial Japanese Army and the Imperial Japanese Navy fecked each other during WW2.
I think its about money.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shale-ukraine-idUSBRE90N0N620130124
Ukraine has large reserves of gas and oil around the Donbas, not to mention the pipelines running through it.
That's what makes this even worse for that cnut - he's really fecked it because Europe has moved away from there number one product.
He's been siphoning the money from the sales for years into his pals pockets, just a hope that the Russian people will wake up before Poland steps in because the hatred towards the Russians is still very much alive.
I was in Czech Republic two weeks ago with two poles, two slovaks and a few chechnyans and a yank - but he doesn't count. But they were all like "its coming, we've had enough of them" they were telling me story's they've heard from Ukrainians that frankly were evil and sick.
Yeah, this is definetly not the end of it. Wagners hate russian military. I watched shooting range videos, where Wagners shot the pictures of Gerasimov and Shoigu. Or other videos, where Wagners threatened russian soldiers with death if they interfere with them. The fact that only Wagners made the only worth mentioning progress in the Donbas just increases their arrogance and hatred towards the incompetent military in their eyes.
And they also know Kremlin will never acknowledge their work, they just use them. As soon as Bakhmut started to fall because of weeks of Wagner's human wave tactic, Russian military starved them of equipment and joined the fight in the most preferable situation. If they take Bakhmut, it's a safe bet the media will only mention the brave military and not Wagner.
If it was about money, he would've invested in Donbass infrastructure already. He's been in control of a huge chunk of it for what, 8 years?I think its about money.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shale-ukraine-idUSBRE90N0N620130124
Ukraine has large reserves of gas and oil around the Donbas, not to mention the pipelines running through it.
That's what makes this even worse for that cnut - he's really fecked it because Europe has moved away from there number one product.
He's been siphoning the money from the sales for years into his pals pockets, just a hope that the Russian people will wake up before Poland steps in because the hatred towards the Russians is still very much alive.
I was in Czech Republic two weeks ago with two poles, two slovaks and a few chechnyans and a yank - but he doesn't count. But they were all like "its coming, we've had enough of them" they were telling me story's they've heard from Ukrainians that frankly were evil and sick.
It's not about money, it simply can't be — even if Putin didn't understand just how severe the sanctions from the West would've been for the invasion, the damage done by them would've outdone any potential profit from those gas reserves. And it's not like Russia lacks gas reserves on its own territory — developing the infrastructure (not only the factories/mines but also towns for the workers etc.) around it is a bigger issue.
Explaining Putin's actions through the lense of realpolitik (and capitalism) is a mistake that led to people (me, often, included) predict his future actions wrongly again and again.
I think it sends entirely the wrong message to include them in sporting events, particularly as we have let it slide so many times, including when they bought the winter Olympics and the World Cup. It's the same as when they're chairing the UN Security Council - the system shouldn't work like that.
I don't know whether you've noticed but economic sanctions can also "halt or ruin careers". The main purpose is to make the ordinary folks feel the pain so that they don't side with their leader. It's an age old tactic in primary schools tbh - "if someone doesn't own up we'll all have to sit here during break until they do". The goal isn't to punish the innocent, it's to emphasise collective responsibility and engender self-regulating social groups.
I really don't think it is. Russia already has like 1/4th of entire world's gas reserves. The main reason is quite clearly the imperialism. While basically every ex-soviet country was delighted to escape from that "union", Russia have always been quite visibly disappointed by the collapse of it and blamed the west for destroying it. They have never hidden their ambitions of restoring it. Ukraine started rapidly shifting away from Russia in the last decade, and since Ukraine is obviously a major cog in the wheel for their imperialistic goals, Putin had to do something.
You are right. I think it is just that Putin had it all, he had absolutely everything, even his own palace, his opposition was in prison. What else an insatiable narcissist can get in this life? Perhaps posthumous fame, like Peter the Great. And he thought he found an easy way there, since Europe has weak leaders.
Let's not act like this will the catalyst for other countries being punished for their transgressions and therefore it's important to do this so that it creates a precedent. Ironically right now the mayor of Bali, Indonesia said that he wouldn't welcome the Israeli team for the U-20 world cup and Indonesia were then striped of their host status for the tournament. So yea, it's only going to be used for Russia or countries that aren't friends of the West.
Bold, That just it - he was thinking he'd turn the Ukraine over in 3 days.
3 of 5 (West/South pointing) Russia's pipelines travel via Ukraine
More on just how much is in Ukraine land.
Europe doesn't have weak leaders, they are just not dictators like Putin. They have to take a lot of voices and needs into account, and decisions have to be agreed on, not just dictated by one person, because Europe is mostly democratic. So saying that European leaders are "weak" is at best ignorant.
I get your point and I'm definitely not in the 'feck all Russians' camp. Actually I've even been attacked over PM because I think most of the population is brainwashed and not really to blame for their wrong morale.
But I'm still for banning Russian athletes. That has two reasons:
1. Russia will definitely exploit their participation for propaganda and we shouldn't give Putin that platform. The freedom of those Russian athletes stops at the point where their self realization poses a threat to Ukraine and that's definitely the case here.
If Russian athletes are allowed to compete, it has to happen in a manner that can't be exploited by Russia, for instance by not competing under the Russian flag in similar fashion to the refugee teams a little while ago and maybe even by wearing a Ukraine arm bind or something like this.
2. Ukraine will boycott the tournament if Russia participates. And since they deserve our support in this case and give us the choice between them and Russia, it is an easy decision for me.
We have very different conceptions of why economic sanctions are used. Both economic sanctions and banning athletes are likely to strengthen the government's support, because it's seen as an attack from the outside.
Last edited:
Well that's shit isn't it?
I do remember that famous phrase my mum always told me growing up - two wrongs make a right.
Really? And that is based on extensive research is it? Or is it just an opinion about how you would feel?
If we go back to my primary school class analogy I generally took the view that you shouldn't snitch to the teacher but it didn't mean you couldn't have a conversation with the kid afterwards. Let's face it, the teachers never really expected anyone to tell, that wasn't why they were doing it.
Sure, there's loads of research on sanctions. The effect I'm talking about would be the rally around the flag effect, I suppose.
If you read research on sanctions it's very split. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it leads to the country becoming more authoritarian, and sometimes it leads to democrization. But, very rarely do researches talk about this being a result of a change in population sentiments, and the few times it comes up is in already relatively free countries. Rather, economic sanctions lowers the income of the state, and the authoritarian leaders therefore have to weigh up doing what they want versus the income loss expected from sanctions.
Further, a substantial part of the effect of sanctions is the threat, and as long as the threat is credible they have already partly failed if they have to be implemented, because they were already part of the calculus.