Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

We keep saying it, because we vaguely know what we’re talking about. Did you read the thread? Also, literally no one said it would be used for dogfights.

The air-to-air missile are more effective when fired from high altitude and don’t have to work too much against gravity. Your aircraft also need to be at high altitude to fire cruise missiles to impart kinetic energy into them. Finally higher altitude allows your radar to see further. Currently it’s difficult to fly at high altitudes in Ukraine because of Russian SAMs. HARM missiles on their own are not a solution (Ukrainian MiGs already have HARM missiles)

F-16s are neither particularly fast jets nor do they carry EW suites. That means they can’t fly high and quick enough to get out of SAM range, nor do they carry EW suites like the Growlers to degrade Russian radars.

PS. European air-to-air missiles are also better. Hence Eurofighters with MDBA missiles are the best option for air dominance, short of getting your hands on F-22s.

Do you feel really confident that you "vaguely" know that the F-16s are not useful for the Ukrainians? While the Ukrainian high command and the Pentagon do not "vaguely" know this?

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

At the Pentagon, push to send F-16s to Ukraine picks up steam

Kyiv has renewed its request for modern fighters in recent days after the U.S. and Germany approved transferring tanks.
 
SAAB Gripen would be a good option. They can launch both Meteor and IRIS-T missiles and are built to operate from roadside bases with low maintanence requirements, the low production numbers is a problem though.

The only realistic option for a modern aircraft to Ukraine is the F-16.

Simply because this is a political decision, and if the USA doesn't do it, the Europeans will not do it either.
 
Do you feel really confident that you "vaguely" know that the F-16s are not useful for the Ukrainians? While the Ukrainian high command and the Pentagon do not "vaguely" know this?

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

At the Pentagon, push to send F-16s to Ukraine picks up steam

Kyiv has renewed its request for modern fighters in recent days after the U.S. and Germany approved transferring tanks.

I’m not sure if you even read what you were responding to, but if you did and that’s your response then we don’t really have much to discuss to be honest. Astonishing inability to comprehend.
 
The Greek air force is not needed for anything, and will not take part in anything anyway. So it should give all its planes to Ukraine.

You are not well informed. There is a constant problem with Turkey.
https://greekreporter.com/2022/12/31/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-10000-times-2022/
Turkey Violated Airspace of Greece More than 10,000 Times in 2022

This problem continues for many years now because Germany does not help Greece with this. Because Germany makes a lot of money with Erdogan, and there are a lot of Turkish voters in Germany, so Germany does not complain too much about "corruption" in Turkey. Turkey-Greece is a similar situation to Russia-Uklraine, and Germany makes more money with Russia/Turkey, at least it used to.
 
You are not well informed. There is a constant problem with Turkey.
https://greekreporter.com/2022/12/31/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-10000-times-2022/
Turkey Violated Airspace of Greece More than 10,000 Times in 2022

This problem continues for many years now because Germany does not help Greece with this. Because Germany makes a lot of money with Erdogan, and there are a lot of Turkish voters in Germany, so Germany does not complain too much about "corruption" in Turkey. Turkey-Greece is a similar situation to Russia-Uklraine, and Germany makes more money with Russia/Turkey, at least it used to.
Ok, let's get this done for good. Please give a complete list of everything in the world Germany is at fault for and then we can just stop this madness in this thread...
 
Ok, let's get this done for good. Please give a complete list of everything in the world Germany is at fault for and then we can just stop this madness in this thread...

It is not my fault you are not informed. Here is an interview with Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, that talks about Ukraine, Greece, Germany, Turkey. There are a lot of issues, and there are people working to resolve them.


https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/newsroom/news/-/2544986

“Greece can rely on Germany’s solidarity”
28.07.2022 - Interview
Interview with Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, published in the Greek newspaper Ta Nea on 28 July 2022.
 
It is not my fault you are not informed. Here is an interview with Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, that talks about Ukraine, Greece, Germany, Turkey. There are a lot of issues, and there are people working to resolve them.


https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/newsroom/news/-/2544986

“Greece can rely on Germany’s solidarity”
28.07.2022 - Interview
Interview with Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, published in the Greek newspaper Ta Nea on 28 July 2022.
Holy sh*t... you really don't get anything people write, do you? And you just ignore every argument?

Of course Greece needs an Air Force
And of course Germany needs an Air Force

Nobody seriously denies that, only you seem to do just out of blind hate of Germany.
 
"Yaroslavskyi also warned that “super qualified” regular Russian military troops are now assisting Wagner private military contractors in assaulting the towns surrounding Bakhmut. That was echoed by another local Ukrainian commander, Volodymyr Nazarenko, who said that Russian paratroopers were taking part in the Bakhmut fight.

“They are just coming forward, they do not take cover, they are coming all-out,” Yaroslavskyi said on national television on Monday.

Russian forces have been making slow but steady gains both north and south of Bakhmut. The last remaining routes under Ukrainian control into the city have come under heavier Russian fire in the past week, according to Ukrainian officials and commanders." - CNN.

Who the hell are "super qualified" regular Russian military troops? Thought most got obligated already. Also, does this mean the Russian MOD and Wagner are working together now for a wasteland?
 
"Yaroslavskyi also warned that “super qualified” regular Russian military troops are now assisting Wagner private military contractors in assaulting the towns surrounding Bakhmut. That was echoed by another local Ukrainian commander, Volodymyr Nazarenko, who said that Russian paratroopers were taking part in the Bakhmut fight.

“They are just coming forward, they do not take cover, they are coming all-out,” Yaroslavskyi said on national television on Monday.

Russian forces have been making slow but steady gains both north and south of Bakhmut. The last remaining routes under Ukrainian control into the city have come under heavier Russian fire in the past week, according to Ukrainian officials and commanders." - CNN.

Who the hell are "super qualified" regular Russian military troops? Thought most got obligated already. Also, does this mean the Russian MOD and Wagner are working together now for a wasteland?
Russia since Soviet times has had a sort of ranking system for it's troops, at least at a division level. So called "guards units" would get the best equipment and training (specially if they were close to Moscow or Leningrad). I think they kept up that tradition at least to some point.
But if like the story you quote, they are using paratroopers as pure infantry, then they do have some issues with personnel. Those guys should be used for high level targets, not friggin Bakhmut.
 
Holy sh*t... you really don't get anything people write, do you? And you just ignore every argument?

Of course Greece needs an Air Force
And of course Germany needs an Air Force

Nobody seriously denies that, only you seem to do just out of blind hate of Germany.

I feel like it’s pointless to argue and the ignore function will serve you better.
 
Vuhledar is in quite an interesting location. Sits just North of Mariupol so has the Russian front on its south since last year and been on the Donbas front to its east since 2014. It also has overwatch on a key railway line that connects southern Ukraine in the currently occupied territories, which would have become even more vital for the Russians to secure since Kerch bridge was hit.

 
How did this joker become president in the first place? And when did he become Putin's agent (I guess during the years he 'retired' from the politics)?
God knows, he had good PR I guess. His PR was he wont be the same as he was when he was a PM (he was crazy back then too), but look and behold he's 100 times worse now then when he was a PM. Its not just that he's crazy, he's doing a massive damage to our foreign policies, Plenković needs to go around explaining what he said, what he meant and basically that he's a lunatic.

As for being Putin's agent I think it's cause he wants to be against everything and everyone and controversial and hates Plenković's guts (and vice versa). So if Plenković is pro Nato, pro EU and pro Ukraine he'll be dead against it even if it means its doing damage and despite the fact its completely insane to have a president and PM with completely different views on global politics.
Its that and maybe he's on a Russian payroll.

He's now cited in Serbian pro-Vučić tabloids too cause he said Kosovo was abducted from Serbia. He had different views when he was a PM of course.

We had a Mesić for a president for 2 mandates too, he's prorussian too, God knows why people elected him not once but twice.
 
Can't your parliament and the PM shut him up? Increase the dose of his medicine or something?
Impeachment is possible if he acted against constitution but for that to even start there needs to be a majority of 2/3 of Parliament. Basically very complicated.
 
Impeachment is possible if he acted against constitution but for that to even start there needs to be a majority of 2/3 of Parliament. Basically very complicated.
So he is the only one who seems to be against the "West" helping the Ukraine in your government? The article was a bit confusing. What about the general opinion of your country on this issue?
 
So he is the only one who seems to be against the "West" helping the Ukraine in your government? The article was a bit confusing. What about the general opinion of your country on this issue?
I'm not sure, looking at the internet there's quite a lot people who spout similar stuff but havent kept track of some polls on the subject to know in general. Government is strictly pro Ukraine. In the parliament recently the main opposition party and other left parties plus one right wing party abstained from the vote on training of UA soldiers here and far right parties voted against it.
 
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I don’t understand the reasoning behind not supplying modern fighter jets. We’re sending MBTs?

The guess I’d make is that the West are worrying about escalation. Tanks are not going to hit targets inside Russia. Modern fighters might. There might also be issues related to the cost of replacement, cost-efficiency etc
 
The guess I’d make is that the West are worrying about escalation. Tanks are not going to hit targets inside Russia. Modern fighters might. There might also be issues related to the cost of replacement, cost-efficiency etc
Presumably this - planes have missiles on them that if they miss - could be devastating. Tanks don't have that range.
 
Political and strategic incompetence.

I get that you’re more emotionally invested than most, but do you really think that the above is true? Because it sounds very much like you are saying that YOU have the answers, and no-one else gets that. So all of the advice eg Biden is getting from his generals, from the CIA, from his diplomats abroad, is trumped by your individual understanding of the situation.

I say this as someone who really wants to see Ukraine given the most modern weaponry possible. But I also recognise my own ignorance.

Edit- by the way I mean this in a non confrontational way. There are surely factors we just aren’t aware of. I want to see Russia and Putin get absolutely humiliated here.
 
I don’t understand the reasoning behind not supplying modern fighter jets. We’re sending MBTs?

They don't trust Ukraine not to use them to fire missiles into Russia and escalate things further.

Also, most nations cant spare jets and any sent to Ukraine will be unlikely to return. Without the full support package of NATO capabilities they would be very vulnerable flying over Eastern Ukraine.
 
I don’t understand the reasoning behind not supplying modern fighter jets. We’re sending MBTs?
You know the famous experiment about the frog in slowly heating water who just stays there until he dies. This is basically the same, slowly increasing support so that Russia doesn't do anything really stupid but just lives with it.

I think it's understandable, but obviously there are massive differences in how people view this and which speed of escalation they think is right.

In general it looks like the further west in Europe you look the more cautious governments get.


Someone's been barking up the wrong tree?
Did you miss the post that it's Germany's fault that Turkey is a threat to Greece because Germany doesn't support Greece enough?
 
I don’t think fighter jets would be that effective given their missile requirements for firing above a certain altitude and Russian SAMs
 
For all the the talk about F-16s and fighters generally, there seems to be next to no chat around NATO attack helicopters (although could easily have missed it).

Feel like helicopters could generally be more useful, although appreciate they're pretty exposed targets to Russian air defence. Training might be difficult, but can't imagine it's any harder than learning to fly F-16s for an already trained pilot.
 
For all the the talk about F-16s and fighters generally, there seems to be next to no chat around NATO attack helicopters (although could easily have missed it).

Feel like helicopters could generally be more useful, although appreciate they're pretty exposed targets to Russian air defence. Training might be difficult, but can't imagine it's any harder than learning to fly F-16s for an already trained pilot.
The Russians have suffered pretty steep attack helicopter losses to Ukrainian air defense, so with even less air superiority, I couldn’t imagine attack helicopters in Ukrainian hands faring much better.