I mean, City literally won the league not long ago without a striker.
And how on Earth can any United fan think this? We won in 1995-96 when Eric was our top league scorer with 14. In 1996-97 our top league scorer was our super sub.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
I mean, City literally won the league not long ago without a striker.
And how on Earth can any United fan think this? We won in 1995-96 when Eric was our top league scorer with 14. In 1996-97 our top league scorer was our super sub.
Reminder, after 6 months he won them their first post Wenger silverware.
I think the blinkers are on the other way around. Football matches are about winning not playing well or "making progress".
Yes. "Progress" is normally a series of incremental improvements and a few key signings can get a team to the top. Some on here seem to be in denial about how bad we've been this season and putting all their faith that the summer transfer window is going to revolutionise our team and have a transformative effect on the team. If that is going to happen then we practically need to bring in 4 or 5 first team starters and I just can't see us doing that.
And nothing since.
I hope we will give him at least another season. I’m actually impressed that he gets results vs Arsenal, City and Liverpool. Under Ten Hag I always felt that those games were guaranteed losses (most of the time they were).
It was a different situation. Amorim came mid-season and we were 13th or 14h on the table when Erik was sacked. The team was falling apart and for the large part of the season we struggled with a lot of injuries. We still might win Europa League and qualify for the UCL next season.
And why do we need to hire someone who has connections with Utd? We already tried that with Solskaer and it failed. My point was that Arsenal gave a lot of time for Arteta to develop and you still don't want to sack him despite him winning 0 trophies in 5 years.
If you don't win UCL this season or at least EPL next season, what's your excuse to keep him for so long? Ten hag won 2 trophies in 2 seasons which was more than Arteta in 6 years. We need to give Amorim a full season with the full backing for us to properly assess things.
No manager in the world will work until we fix our recruitment.
We need to stop buying potential or whatever and invest in players who are class right now.
One world class striker will change this team.
We need to stop buying potential or whatever and invest in players who are class right now.
One world class striker will change this team.
Did Arteta cut you up in traffic, or something?
Yes, 12 months into the job (having already won the FA Cup) Arteta had Arsenal in 15th... in December. That is a data point. A far more significant data is that we finished the season in 8th while completely overhauling our squad.
I'm not sure why I have to explain this, but league table position becomes more significant the closer you get to the end of the season. So United being in 14th position with 5 games to go is very significant seeing as your Manager was appointed in November. Whereas as Arsenal being in 15th with half a season to go is far less significant. Yes, even if that happens to coincide with the utterly arbitrary 12 month date you've selected.
Interesting stat. With that in mind, it is a bit bizarre we seem to be going all in on Cunha for the 10 position but scrimping with Delap up front. You'd think the big money should be going towards the striker if it's an either or situation.
Your posts are bizarre. Arteta is a brilliant manager and Arsenal are extremely lucky to have him.
Keep:
- Deserves a preseason.
- It is not his squad.
- Deserves to strengthen key weak positions such as striker, AM/CM, keeper which might add 20 points.
- Young and hopefully learning.
- Is there an obvious and better candidate?
- 6 months is too small a sample size.
- Only averaging 1 point per game.
- Inexperienced outside Portugal.
- His system is not really working and might not work in the PL.
- Our overall play is not progressing, still weak at the back despite 3 CBs, and blunt in attack.
- Often concede the first goal.
- Limited succes in developing players except for Yoro and Amad.
Yet noone in their right mind would argue Ten Hag left you in a better position than Arteta has. In a month if Arteta wins the CL even this excuse will go. Every single sane United fan would exchange your position with our position for one less FA cup.
Arteta barely hung on to his job after his 1 win in 10 games showing and only survived by the skin of his teeth. He'd been 100% sacked had we ended up 15 to 17th. I have never seen any top club across Europe fallen this low that such results are accepted, and excused.
Your defeats are all down to him. Again, Arteta figured out very quickly when he came our dire team would not survive 5 games with his possession football and he adapted to the utter 11 behind the ball borefest till we got the players suited for our style of play. But here we see Amorim doubling down on an already niche formation when even a blind man can see your team, heck no team in the league, is suited to his demands. Its just poor management. Even you must surely agree the better tactic is to play a normal formation till he gets his players in. Instead of insisting on playing his 3 or 5 at the back when none of your players are suited for it.
Quote me as this is what will happen if he survives the summer:
You'll spend another fortune buying players for a formation noone else plays. And if he gets sacked people will write essays excusing the next write off season and blame the new players stuck in a system the new manager doesn't want.
I 100% agreed you with mate that he'd need backing before being judged, my posts here were saying the same thing a few months ago. BUT now....My point is, as someone who watches your games regularly, I am shocked at how accepting United fans have become to the rubbish on display. If you were 8th or 9th even 10th you could excuse it. But mate come on, you could genuinely end up SEVENTEENTH. Ie the bottom of the league after the 3 teams are relegated. This is unacceptable for clubs like Villa/Newcastle/even West Ham, never mind United.
My complaint isn't about Arteta. It's about Arsenal fans. Read the above again.
You being in 15th after a year under a manager, after your worst start to a season ever is a "data point." A data point apparently redeemed by finishing....8th. Same position you'd finished the season before.
Where as Amorim being 14th after 6 months and in the semi's of the Europa League is somehow much more of a disaster. Definitely not a data point in this case.
I wouldn't go that far, he's a good manager, turned the team around. But he won one cup 5 years ago. That isn't brilliant.
But you've missed my point. I'm not talking about Arteta as such. I don’t care how he performs. I'm complaining about Arsenal fans and these different rule books they have for their manager and ours.
I think Arteta can be argued to be still on the path to success right now but I also agree that if he doesn't win anything this season/next season there will be serious questions as to whether he is the man to finish the job. Hes done a brilliant job IMO but at some point you have to win trophies from his position.
Yep, good recruitment is vital. The first thing is to buy players with the right mentality and solid fundamentals. Players who can pass, work under pressure and run will be solid in almost any system and under any manager.
Arteta was also appointed mid-season and Arsenal were in 11th place when he took charge of his first game.
United don't need to hire someone who has a connection to the club. No club does. The question that I and others have asked is how Amorim has managed to foster suchh loyalty with such a bad record at United despite having no links to the club. It's not even a wind-up, it's a genuine question.
- Moyes was handpicked by SAF.
- LVG had an impressive CV
- Mourihno had an even more impressive CV
- Ole was a club legend
We don't need an "excuse" to keep Arteta. The board and most fans think he's doing a good job. You might disagree and that would be entirely understandable. What I find more difficult to square in my mind, is someone suggesting Arteta should be sacked for the job he's doing while simultaneously backing Amorim.
How can the requirements for Arteta be so high (must win the CL or PL within the next 12 months) and yet so very low for a Manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world?
You're conflating loyalty towards Amorim with reserving judgement.
Most United fans are reserving judgement until the other huge problems that have been going on for years are improved. Watching the football and what's going on off the pitch, recognising that whoever got the job in November needs time.
Whoever got the job in November, I'd have the same opinion towards. Let them have a pre season and get some forwards who can score in.
It's not loyalty. It's closer to pragmatism.
Being 15th a year after being appointed isn't a data point that needs "redeeming". It's just not that significant because there was half a season left to play.
Yes, Amorim being 14th after 6 months is a disaster. He was appointed in November, played 22 games, lost half of them and United will finish the season just above the relegation spots having displayed literal relegation-worthy form since he took over.
I've bolded the salient points, because you seem obsessed with arbitrary dates that you're picking. Arsenal's position in the table 12 months into Arteta's tenure has very little relevance for anybody. Apart from you, to whom it seems to matter a great deal - for some reason.
I get what you're saying, but it looks a lot like blind loyalty to me (and I'd wager a fair few other outsiders).
I think reserving judgement would be more like @Regulus Arcturus Black's take...
Literally contradicting yourself in the same post
Are you alright there lad?
Mate Regulus has been the antithesis of ‘reserving judgement’, have you seen his posts in this thread? He’s been consistently negative.
I'll defer to your knowledge of his posting as a whole. I was just referring to his take that I quoted. It seemed fairly balanced to me.
Amorim has had ~6 months with a team he took over that were near the relegation zone, Arteta had Arsenal in 15th 5 months into a season where he started the season with the club, and had a preseason. I'm not sure I really understand why one is terrible and the other isn't?
Because you are comparing apples and oranges. Arteta has had a title winning squad for a couple of seasons and he didn't win anything. Even if he couldn't win EPL why didn't he at least win another cup or something? Man utd in its worst season last season won by FA Cup by beating City. This season which is even more worse we might win Europa.
Arsenal was never in such crisis as Utd was in these last 2 years. Amorim has a job to rebuild the club and reach Europe or top 4/5 next season. Arsenal has a great squad that is capable of winning big trophies. You might excuse City's unbelievable dynasty but this year they were clear favorites to win after City's big decline.
I am not saying that you should sack him but he's running out of excuses if he doesn't win a big trophy this or the next season. For Amorim, if he has a similar season to this one, obviously there won't be any excuses.
But give him one full season and if he fails, I'll tell you Amorim out.
Because they had only been 14 games played and therefore positions in the table are less significant. And it feels like pre-seasons have taken on mythical qualities within this thread. They're useful, but seeing as new Managers often experience a bump when taking over mid-season, they're not even guaranteed to be a statistical advantage.
I think we may be going round in circles. If you think that Arteta's league position 12 months into his tenure is highly significant, nothing I say will you convince you otherwise.
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Arsenal were 15th for 5 rounds out of 38. That was because they had a 7-game run of extremely bad form (2 points out of 21). Not a good thing, but it happens. There is no particular significance to this stretch of games just because it coincided with Arteta's 1-year anniversary at the club or whatever.
If I recall, there were concerns at the time. Understandable, since things seemed to be getting out of control. But they followed that 7-game run of bad form with a 7-game run of great form (5W2D) which calmed people down a bit.
If I recall, there were concerns at the time. Understandable, since things seemed to be getting out of control. But they followed that 7-game run of bad form with a 7-game run of great form (5W2D) which calmed people down a bit.
Who built that title-winning squad?
Arsenal were in the bottom half of the table when Arteta was appointed and we hadn't qualified for the CL in years.
I don't think it's about Arteta running out of excuses. I don't think it's about Amorim running out of excuses, either. I find all of that pretty reductive.
My opinion is just that it's odd to say you can't judge Amorim at all until he has a summer transfer window and a pre-season. That is truly odd, because it makes it seem like the only parts of being a Manager that truly matter occur when the football season isn't happening.
Totally agree
But it happened 12 months after Arteta was hired. Therefore it's highly significant : )
Nah, thanks for pointing that out - I felt like I was knocking my head against a (somewhat arbitrarily placed) wall.
He was also responsible for saddling us with Onana and Mount 2 absolutely useless buys. One is permanently injured and the other is a complete liability costing us so many goals single handedly
Nope.
He took over when we were 4 points off top 4.
And Wolves, who hired a new manager in the same week have made up 18 points.
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I don't think it's highly significant at all, I just don't see how you can judge Amorim for a similar situation, yet say it wasn't a big issue for Arteta.
Mythical pre-season and Goldilocks transfer window full of established world class attackers that will easily propel the remaining players up the table to a top 4 finish.
Not sure who I'll feel worse for next year the manager who is expected to pull a rabbit out of his hat in pre-season or the new 19 year attacker playing his first time in the prem that the fans come after because he's letting down said manager who apparently can't do no wrong until he has the perfect squad at his disposal.
I like Rashford. He is more talended than most of the players in our squad.
In my opinion, Amorim did not handle Rashford well. This is another reason I have little confidence in Amorim.
Having Rashford, Antony, Sancho on loan, while we don't have many attacking options available, does not seem very smart to me. Being very stubborn is excusable when you are winning, but when you are not...
In my opinion, Amorim did not handle Rashford well. This is another reason I have little confidence in Amorim.
Having Rashford, Antony, Sancho on loan, while we don't have many attacking options available, does not seem very smart to me. Being very stubborn is excusable when you are winning, but when you are not...
I imagine it's more important to a manager to have a team playing badly, but who listen and do everything he asks - rather than have a bloated squad with egotistical primadonna's, shrouding the club in drama but finishing ever so slightly higher up the table.
Rashford has 4 goals in 17 appearances for Villa. He apparently lost favor with Amorim for both things related to his training as well as his outside of football activities.
Rashford gave an unauthorised interview saying he wanted to leave, not much Amorim can do after that. Rashford had to go.
Don't understand the "he can't develop young players" argument.
Yoro looks class.
Collyer looked awesome before injury.
Amass looked incredible, hopefully we see more of him.
Fredricson had a perfect game on his debut.
Heaven looked amazing.
Garnacho seems less selfish lately and certainly would have had 4-5 more assist if Hojlund wasn't so bad. Also if Mount wasn't so bad.
If anything, our young players (bar Hojlund) look exciting and capable of achieving a lot.
Also, Amass and Fredricson looked very comfortable in 3-4-3, suited in effortlessly.
I feel we are creating the "heritage" Mou was talking about.
If we win the title in 4-5 years with core of Amass, Mainoo, Yoro, Collyer, Heaven, Garnacho, Obi, Amad etc. this season is the moment we started building towards that.
So the argument I'm reading against Amorim, that he doesn't improve and develop young players, is complete and utter bullcrap.
Yoro looks class.
Collyer looked awesome before injury.
Amass looked incredible, hopefully we see more of him.
Fredricson had a perfect game on his debut.
Heaven looked amazing.
Garnacho seems less selfish lately and certainly would have had 4-5 more assist if Hojlund wasn't so bad. Also if Mount wasn't so bad.
If anything, our young players (bar Hojlund) look exciting and capable of achieving a lot.
Also, Amass and Fredricson looked very comfortable in 3-4-3, suited in effortlessly.
I feel we are creating the "heritage" Mou was talking about.
If we win the title in 4-5 years with core of Amass, Mainoo, Yoro, Collyer, Heaven, Garnacho, Obi, Amad etc. this season is the moment we started building towards that.
So the argument I'm reading against Amorim, that he doesn't improve and develop young players, is complete and utter bullcrap.
Literally every thing is wrong about this post
Imagine pining for Rashford after seeing him take the club for absolute piss the last few years
I am fine with selling any player, if we replace him with a better player.
Having 3 attacking players out on loan is not selling, it is just cippling the team with zero gains (except perhaps some money gained, but we have been wasting so much money that this does not really improve our financial position).
I have just watched the highlights Man City - Aston Villa and Rashford was great. None of our attackers are as good. And Emery plays him as striker, which many people here said that he is not good at. Well, my opinion is that we need a manager who finds solutions to problems and inspires the players, not a manager that fights against the players and weakens the squad and has to get "his own players" to improve anything.