Agreed. It would take a brave management team to sack before their final seasons, Ole and Jose. after what they'd managed to achieve. LVG got the right amount of time. Moyes too. ETH was given way too much time. Should have been sacked by Christmas last season.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Hmmm you get a few teams every season that over perform…I fully expect Forest to go back into mid-table next season and conveniently never used to bash United again.
Not sure what United could actually learn from Forest as the comparisons/situations are so vastly different.
Interestingly 0.5% of the voters thought that we would finish below 10th.
Before Amorim started:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/doe...-able-to-fix-this.485324/page-2#post-32570052
Lets not pretend some of us have drastically changed their views on the squad, we just knew what we were talking about.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/doe...-able-to-fix-this.485324/page-2#post-32570052
Lets not pretend some of us have drastically changed their views on the squad, we just knew what we were talking about.
Doesn't take a brave management team. It takes a big club with actual ambition to return to the top to make the big decisions. United owe nothing to Amorim. If he doesn't win games, he is cooked. It is as simple as that.
But do you think we'll get those upgrades any time soon? We'll probably improve on our striking options, because it'd be hard not to, even for the imbeciles running the club. However I can't see them improving the squad to an extent that this manager has us at least sailing steadily in the top 6 at minimum, given how much he's currently struggling.
Yep, they are 11th on xpts on understat. It's akin to our over performance from 15th to an actual 8th last season.
One thing that can't be excluded is his potential ability to analyze the team after the season and understand how he needs to change things. This possibility is the only reason why I'm not totally in favor of sacking him, the moment ETH lost me was when he botched his second preseason and made no adjustments to obvious flaws in his setup before that I gave him the benefit of doubt.
I think it will be a couple of years until we'll be challenging top 6 again. Too much work to do with little money until the big contracts have gone.
I think we should/would have finished a lot higher if not for…
I also believe that even with the above he should be getting us playing better by now in his formation. The fact that we haven’t improved at all is a huge concern.
- Going into the season with ETH, this was a huge mistake and one a lot saw coming
- Loads of injuries to what would have been important players this season, annoyingly nearly always the same players
- Changing formation to one we do not have the players currently to play it, especially with our injuries
- Decision made to try and move on players who do not suit the new formation without replacing them
- A new manager who will not change formation irrelevant of the above points
I also believe that even with the above he should be getting us playing better by now in his formation. The fact that we haven’t improved at all is a huge concern.
One of the most grim sentences I've seen in a while on here.
If you have a squad that cannot score goals eventually you will start sinking like a stone, which is what's happening with us. We are reliant if we get one then we have to keep a clean sheet and somehow we conspire amongst our players to make sure that does not happen.
Ten Hag drilled the players hard in passing, in his first pre-season.
He set up the team to play the ball forward fast, instead of passing safely.
With Amorim I‘m seeing a mix: sometimes we play it safe and other times we play forward more quickly.
The players have to make it work. Their poor decision making and lack of purposefulness is what is holding us back the most.
We looked better the beginning of the season: we were more compact.
Ruud has us compact too.
There is no tangible improvement yet with Amorim. He‘s failing, but we are giving him more time to try because he undoubtedly is a good coach.
It is probably correct, we are a terrible team. I doubt we can afford Cunha, Mateta and a decent CM.
But probably accurate without an excellent summer window.
Let me soothe your sole. With a couple of good head coaches Chelsea went from 15th when Mourinho was sacked to champions the next season. And no Chelsea didn't have a great team in 15/16 and in 16/17 the only great signing they made was Kanté. I won't tell you that we will be champions but if your manager isn't useless, a team with our squad can make a big jump.
I don't even like our squad but many fans are lying to themselves when they underrate every single player while overrating every opponents.
That is ridiculous. Forest has a better squad than us?
.No, we are underperforming, massively.
This squad is better than last year‘s squad. Certainly good enough for 4th-8th place.
There‘s a good chance ETH would have finished fourth without the injury crisis.
I just.... I don't even know where to start with any of that, my word.That is ridiculous. Forest has a better squad than us?
No, we are underperforming, massively.
This squad is better than last year‘s squad. Certainly good enough for 4th-8th place.
There‘s a good chance ETH would have finished fourth without the injury crisis.
It's like some people's eyes and brains genuinely work in a different way - like living in opposite world. It's so far from reality that I don't even think I can begin to start to craft any kind of reply that would scratch the surface of the unreality encased in those four sentences.
So I'll just bid you a pleasant evening
I'm baffled that anyone can look at that and think "yeah that should be getting top 6 level results". What are they seeing that we aren't?
And I'm baffled by anyone pretending that the 2 months before the second week of February. We failed to gain points when we had Amad, Rashford, Antony, Collyer, Mainoo and Martinez. This reframing of that period is strange.
Which results in that time frame were particularly surprising?
And you say those names like they are special, they aren't. We hope Amad might be, Rashford sits on the bench for Villa, Mainoo has fallen off a cliff (but is still only 19), Martinez isn't a good defender, Antony?!.
All of them, the performances were underwhelming for the vast majority and the exception were against Arsenal and City. And I named these players because injuries and players being out today was brought up as if it was something that applied to the entirey of the past 3 months.
Also while you weren't sold on that team, you thought that 8th was our spot. So logically you expected better from this team than a 31% win rate.
Yep I overrated us, but did see it as more likely lower than 8th than higher so I'm just not surprised at all by it.
I don't agree with this man but I have to respect how much reputation he's gambling on United not finishing 2 positions ahead of where they are.
And do you think that this overrating has anything to do with the coaching? Because your initial argument was and still is correct, we lack goal scoring, so nothing changed on that front.
I don't think anyone in August thought that Höjlund would turn into a poor Championship striker or that Mainoo and Garnacho would stop developing. Garnacho has missed numerous chances as well, clearly independent of who our manager is. A total shitshow of a season and of course bad luck with injuries.
Minimal. Reading back my pre season posts I said we were relying on another Rashford purple patch for goals. Instead we've lost him completely. No coach can overcome a complete lack of attacking quality.
I'm not sure whether the Rashford situation is a mark against Amorim or enforced given we need the money.
Fair enough, I fundamentally disagree especially when we have and had attacking quality unless one believes that Amad, Garnacho, Rashford and especially Bruno are so bad that no coach can have an average attack with them.
Our second total shit show season on the bounce, thought it couldn't get worse than last season. We really can't afford a third on the bounce which is why we simply must not give another imposter syndrome manager free reign to shape another team in his image. I'm not saying Ruben is an imposter but we've had a few aside from Mourinho and LVG already and it'll do monumental damage to us progressing for another decade.
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Have we now come to the conclusion that after 117 days on the job that Ruben Amorim is unfit for the job? How many days will we give the next manager, 60? And the next, 45? And the next, 90 minutes plus stoppage time?
I think this is key.
The premier league is a physical league and needs a physical spine. Foreign managers I think miss this key aspect.
The "small" skillful players are good in foreign leagues as they are more "tactical" (the leagues that is).
If you look at past consistent league winners in the premier league you will see the spines have physical players.
I don't think that these things are independent to who the manager is. Developing players is a big part of a manager's job, putting them in a mental state that is conducive to confident and efficient performances is also his job.
That's where I'm kind of lost with many fans, basically managers are useless, they have no responsibility, results and performances have nothing to do with them. In that case the best move is to not have one.
The mistake was extending ETH's contract.
I agree that there's no guarantee that Amorim will come good, but 117 days is a ridiculously short period of time to reach the conclusion that he is unfit for the job. If we're going to start sacking managers after their first 100 days doesn't work out, we're going to be sacking managers every 100 days for a very long period of time.
There's at least 8 teams with better than those 4 as a collective. Rashfords on Villa's bench.
We've scored the 15th most goals. We'd expect more, yes but there's a limit to these players. Garnacho missing chances isn't on Amorim.
It's not fully on Amorim, but a big part of his job is to coach and improve our players. Garnacho and Hojilund have somehow gone backwards. Mainoo also. Surely you have some concerns over this aside from "they're all shite".
It's not that they are useless etc. Quality of players is just far more important. Do you think Slot would be anywhere near the title if Salah had been injured all season instead of fit every game? Has Guardiola suddenly become a worse coach or is more likely down to losing Rodri and other key players getting old?
My biggest issue with Ten Hag was recruitment. That's what's ruined us far more than his awful system.
Of course a missed chance isn't on Amorim or ETH, but the chronic lack of chances created is on the coaching staff. In the end we won't see eye to eye, I think that collectives are enhanced through coaching.
Agreed, and I find it hard to identify one area where Amorim has improved us. 90% of our PL games start with us conceding, something is very wrong. But I also think it would be very difficult for any manager to finish top 8 with this squad. It was an additional risk to hire a manager intent on playing 3421, let's see if he survives the summer.
No your point is that they are useless. And yes there is a fair chance that after 9 years, Guardiola doesn't have the same ability to coax more from his players in difficult times, it's fairly normal for managers to regress with age or after a long time in the same place.
Managers are also sometime out of form, it can take them a few years to get it back.
On that basis you're at the other end of the scale where Slot is the main reason Liverpool are top and Russell Martin/Juric is the reason they are bottom.