Give me 20 examples of a successful trequartista, stat!
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Well said.
There are some football luddites in here here.
Have they not noticed that teams like Arsenal or City may hand their team sheets in with their players in a 433, but their full back, or even a center back like Stones for City, will spend most of the game up with the midfield when in possession?
Modern football is about creating overloads and mismatches in areas of the field. If executed properly, Amorims system will do this.
It was obvious our lack of firepower with the disgraceful attacking quality we posses will eventually will catch up and affect the whole squad. I personally did not think we were bad in the back and the middle until the Newcastle game. If we want to turn things around, we need to fecking go and buy an attacker no matter what.
Initially the media were big upping him, saying he has personality, has a style of play, and was successful at Sporting.
But after the newcsl defeat, the knives are coming out. Over his head, stubborn, defeatist, etc.
But after the newcsl defeat, the knives are coming out. Over his head, stubborn, defeatist, etc.
That's what happens. It's a results business, and the results have been horrendous.
At least he’s sticking to his idea. Like he’s said if you change things because of results then it’s the end for any coach. The storm will end and the sun will rise
Wish him the best in 2025 but I don’t see where this turns around. Players not up for it and the one player we have that looked decent has now regressed like the others. Dark days.
I believe we are cursed. I'm ready to sacrifice a stable of horses to the soccer gods.
Ruben can't do much with ETH's players, who lost 16 last season, and now are on course to do worse. Progressively worse, finally a manager who has exposed them rather than paper over the cracks.
Give him 2 summers and this team will be transformed.
Give him 2 summers and this team will be transformed.
Make sure to lay off the kool aid in the new year so your brain doesn’t turn further into mush!
At the risk of casting judgement too soon, I'll say this.
In my opinion, almost all of our previous failed managers showed very quickly that they were never going to succeed, aka win the PL and/or CL. We've come 2nd before. We've won the FA Cup and League Cup. Europa League. All the minor trophies. Those were not considered successes. Success at this club is an extremely high bar.
The people that pointed it out early on were of course talked down. It's not the done thing in Man Utd support to cast negative judgement on the manager too soon. Unfortunately, in the end they were proven right. And more painfully, we wasted years, billions of pounds, and loads of talented careers to find out the obvious.
As with Amorim it's early days, but he is showing similar signs.
With managers though, it is different. It is all about decision making.
It's possible for Amorim to completely turn this moment around, but not with the route he's going. He needs to re-evaluate his strategy, because he's clearly a talented coach but he is making a lot of obviously wrong decisions thus far (possible due to age/inexperience) and if he does not course correct, he will fail.
In my opinion, almost all of our previous failed managers showed very quickly that they were never going to succeed, aka win the PL and/or CL. We've come 2nd before. We've won the FA Cup and League Cup. Europa League. All the minor trophies. Those were not considered successes. Success at this club is an extremely high bar.
The people that pointed it out early on were of course talked down. It's not the done thing in Man Utd support to cast negative judgement on the manager too soon. Unfortunately, in the end they were proven right. And more painfully, we wasted years, billions of pounds, and loads of talented careers to find out the obvious.
As with Amorim it's early days, but he is showing similar signs.
With managers though, it is different. It is all about decision making.
It's possible for Amorim to completely turn this moment around, but not with the route he's going. He needs to re-evaluate his strategy, because he's clearly a talented coach but he is making a lot of obviously wrong decisions thus far (possible due to age/inexperience) and if he does not course correct, he will fail.
I'd have to drink gallons of it to catch up with you so that's not happening.
Happy New Year anyway.
I feel like you are talking to me with this post because, until Ten Hag, I was this kinda fan: Back the manager, give him 'time,' cling to every positive as a sign of progress and a turning point.
However, after 10 years of the Man Utd boom and bust cycle, I have finally decided to look at things totally dispassionately. I am not going to project all my hopes onto the manager, nor am I going to blame him for everything that goes wrong and act like if we just got the right guy everything would turn to gold.
With Amorim, he's obviously a good coach but everything he excels at goes against the strengths of the players we have. Without some changes, either to his approach or our playing staff, it's hard to see how things get better. To me, that's just obvious.
There's a genuine chance that we go down if things continue along the current trajectory.
I dont really see how he can survive. Even if Zirkzee goes on loan with option to buy. Anthony is loaned to Betis. Casemiro goes to Saudi. We would still not raise much cash. We need LWB and RWB IMO, nobody is convincing right now. Thats without addressing the fact we cant score goals and need couple of new forwards too. Amad is the only consistent goal threat.
We then have no central midfield, and could do with a couple of sigings there. Can say the same at CB. Martinez has been shite lately and looks to be struggling. So we need 1 or 2 there as well.
News on the grapvine is there isnt alot of cash available, and we have almost nobody we can sell who would get us a decent fee. Amorim is screwed, unless he changes things and gets the most out of what hes got..
We then have no central midfield, and could do with a couple of sigings there. Can say the same at CB. Martinez has been shite lately and looks to be struggling. So we need 1 or 2 there as well.
News on the grapvine is there isnt alot of cash available, and we have almost nobody we can sell who would get us a decent fee. Amorim is screwed, unless he changes things and gets the most out of what hes got..
If there is 1 priority, it is the LWB position (or Shaw coming back uninjured). Once that starts to function, I think the rest of the team will start clicking together. We don't need wholesale changes once confidence flows. We can do the main business of getting players who fit at the end of the season.
Gone sideways only in the last couple of games. He coached a decent 2-1 or even a 2-0 win against Bournemouth.
Wouldn’t that be better for you? If he got fired? Isn’t that what you want? You’ve been moaning about him constantly for a while now.
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If we continue to flirt with relegation, Amorim will be gone. He shouldn’t be but he will be sacked because the economic hit the Glazers have to take will be of gargantuan proportions notwithstanding the FFP regulations they have to navigate.
Ultimately, Amorim’s sole goal would be to keep us up this season and then rebuild from scratch.
It is going to be a very rough ride.
Ultimately, Amorim’s sole goal would be to keep us up this season and then rebuild from scratch.
It is going to be a very rough ride.
Speaking about relegation during some of our lowest post-Fergie retirement points before this one it did cross my mind a few times that it could well be the great reset we need in a start-from-scratch kind of way... wrong, silly me. Right now as genuine threat of relegation looms over I honestly think it would just kill us as a football club once and for all.
I have a feeling that Amorim might be purposely playing bad wingbacks aka fullbacks to show Ineos that we need to try target one atleast one wingback as quick as possible in January.
We have tried Amad at wingback, Antony at wingback, Mazraoui at wing back, Dalot at wing back -
But it seems like he is purposely chosing the worst combo atm almost on purpose.
Mazraoui has played better at RCB than RB. The amount of times Dalot cuts in as a LWB and takes a shot with his right foot that hits the crowd than on target is really infuriating because it so obvious that Garnacho can do most of what Dalot can do since Dalot's crossing is not good, his shots are not good, Garnacho is a better dribbler and Dalot doesnt really provide much defensively imo for people who say Garnacho would be horrendous defensively ( which is what we need anyway to be more attacking based than defensive as seen when we played Amad at RWB).
Its just confusing as why we have played with a 5-2-3 recently. It's influenced heavily by dropping Rashford for moving out, Garnacho with probable leaks but why not play Antony as a RWB with Amad? If Garnacho keeps coming off the bench at 70 mins then cant he start a game at wing back?
The whole sudden defensive team is confusing and the only reason i can think of is that we let in set piece goals but playing fullbacks isnt going to help us much more than wingbacks.
We have tried Amad at wingback, Antony at wingback, Mazraoui at wing back, Dalot at wing back -
But it seems like he is purposely chosing the worst combo atm almost on purpose.
Mazraoui has played better at RCB than RB. The amount of times Dalot cuts in as a LWB and takes a shot with his right foot that hits the crowd than on target is really infuriating because it so obvious that Garnacho can do most of what Dalot can do since Dalot's crossing is not good, his shots are not good, Garnacho is a better dribbler and Dalot doesnt really provide much defensively imo for people who say Garnacho would be horrendous defensively ( which is what we need anyway to be more attacking based than defensive as seen when we played Amad at RWB).
Its just confusing as why we have played with a 5-2-3 recently. It's influenced heavily by dropping Rashford for moving out, Garnacho with probable leaks but why not play Antony as a RWB with Amad? If Garnacho keeps coming off the bench at 70 mins then cant he start a game at wing back?
The whole sudden defensive team is confusing and the only reason i can think of is that we let in set piece goals but playing fullbacks isnt going to help us much more than wingbacks.
I have a stable of donkeys I can offload to you for cheap.
SAF - long time ago but could have been sacked on several occasions in the 7 years it took him to win the PL.
Moyes - Obvious disaster from the get go. Clearly well out of his depth.
Van Gaal - After a rough start, we actually started looking like a decent team by the end of his first season. Second season we retained the new ability to control games and dominate possention but lost any attacking flair we had so ended up toothless. Still controlled games though, even if it bored everyone to death.
Mourinho - Undid anything positive re possession based football Van Gaal implemented because he doesn't believe in systems or style of play, and instead went ultra pragmatic. Won a couple of trophies doing it but set us back a decade in terms of playing style. More importantly, he introduced the toxic mentally we're still suffering from today. Picking players based on patronage and who he decided to not throw under the bus when it didn't work out for him.
Ole - Wanted and tried to get us playing swashbuckling football of old. Worked for a few games but quickly became evident that it relied entirely on momentum, and once that stopped the players didn't have the self believe to regain it.
Rangnick - hired to try to implement a high pressing system that the next coach could build on. Players went with it for a couple of games then downed tools forcing Rangnick to revert to something in the players comfort zone. Which still didn't work because the players already made the call he wasn't worth their time listening to since he'd be gone end of the season.
Ten Hag - Also tried to implement a style early on. Even with a full pre-season it was an even worse disaster than Amorim is currently facing. So he gave up and reverted to the former system the players are used to, because they just can't adapt.
TLDR - recent managers have all gone to shit after quickly abandoning their preferred systems to cater for the squad they inherited. Once you do that you give in to the players and accept their preferred system is the only system that works. You need to win a lot of silverware and wait for senior players to move on before you have any real authority to implement your own tactics. feck that.
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So what is the solution? The players are shit. No manager can change that as we have seen in the past 6 years.
That is the thing. Our fans think once we play 433 our players suddenly are smart or work hard or score or dont make stupid mistakes at the back.
This squad needs training and replacing. Simple
"Rag".
Martinez is one.
Maybe relegation is the best thing that could happen to the club. We’d be forced to sell all our (underperforming) high earners to meet financial rules, have to bring through a few youth teamers and then once we inevitably get promoted back there’ll be a clean slate to work from.
We are not getting relegated though
We are not getting relegated though
This is inevitable as a united manager. He knows it and we know it.
He said from day one, he wants to implement his philosophy and this will take time and the right signings. Meanwhile he will need to deal with the average squad he has to work with.
I hope we have enough funds to be a quick rebuild else it will be a very slow and painful journey for all. I think Amorim needs to shipped out 7-10 players and bring in 4-5 new players and promote our younger players. It will be major heart surgery where no one is safe. We might as well get kick out of Europe altogether so Amorim can have more time for coaching.
So start selling the players to find funds for new ones. Whether it's Zirkzee, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho or even Mainoo, everyone can go if there is a buyer who comes with a half decent offer.
Even on this forum, every time there's rumours of a player being sold, there is always a big discussion on whether we are making a huge mistake. There is no mistake with any of these players. They are all flops when judged by the highest bar and no one is truly indispensable.
Things will never change if the club DNA remains so resistant to moving players on.
The system is all the talk right now, but that's not all that goes into managing a group of players at the top level.
Unfortunately for Amorim, he has been dropped into a situation where he has to showcase his full management repertoire right off the bat. Not just limited to tactics and coaching, but also player management, morale management, pragmatism, media astuteness, etc. So far he has struggled.
One thing I will say is that fans declaring large swathes of the playing squad as average/poor/lazy/unprofessional, etc players has long been a red flag for me re the manager. That is what is currently happening with Amorim.
As long as we can avoid relegation, I feel very confident that with backing, Amorim will get United back where we belong.
He's an excellent manager and has a clear plan, it's not his fault that he's stuck with technically, physically, and mentally deficient players bought by the people systematically destroying this club.
I think the reason worry is that we can't afford to give him the players he needs, and selling is unlikely to work well, since we're trying to sell obvious duds who have already been exposed to the world.
He's an excellent manager and has a clear plan, it's not his fault that he's stuck with technically, physically, and mentally deficient players bought by the people systematically destroying this club.
I think the reason worry is that we can't afford to give him the players he needs, and selling is unlikely to work well, since we're trying to sell obvious duds who have already been exposed to the world.
What are some of you smoking?? Relegation would be absolutely devastating if it ever happens, especially with the idiots running the club at the moment. It’s basically game over for any attempt at being a top side for the next 10-15 years. We’d be in even more financial trouble losing sponsor and TV money adding to ever growing debt. How the hell would the club be ”forced” to sell our jokers with the amount money they’re earning at the club? We’d lose a lot of prestige and no promising youth player would want to join when there are PL options available. I cant even begin to imagine the mediocrity we’d succumb into if ever relegated. Stop running this narrative.
We can do that without being relegated.
Quite honest I find this talk of relegation being such a wonderful thing a bit strange. In the unlikely event it happened, there is no guarantee we would bounce back straight away.
And it would be catastrophic for our finances.
We will stay in the PL and maybe finish mid table at least.
Our squad is bad we get it but I don’t think it’s as bad as it’s showing, confidence is a wonderful thing and with it some of these players will be alright.
Martinez, Mainoo, Maz etc all are victims of an underperforming, confident empty team.
The likes of Dalot can go along with a fair few others but I have faith in some of them to pick up when Amorim gets it right.
As I’ve said previously now that the main cluster of games is out of the way and time can be allocated to carrington I think we will start to see an upturn.
Martinez, Mainoo, Maz etc all are victims of an underperforming, confident empty team.
The likes of Dalot can go along with a fair few others but I have faith in some of them to pick up when Amorim gets it right.
As I’ve said previously now that the main cluster of games is out of the way and time can be allocated to carrington I think we will start to see an upturn.
If Amorim is purposely fecking up then he needs fired. We may get one wingback in this window or the summer, but not much more.
He will never be in a position to replace the majority of this first team within the next one year. We need to deal with reality here. He should stick by his footballing principles and I will back this, but he needs to slightly adapt the working plan to the situation. The 343 doesn't need abandoning, it needs some tweaking to manage our squad weaknesses for now.
Timing is everything. If he goes too idealistic to drive complete change where it simply cannot be done at this time, he will fail.
I’m willing to ride out this season to be honest, he’s come in midseason with a game essentially every 3 days and has managed probably 5 full training sessions before this week.
We aren’t going to get relegated, we weren’t going to secure top 4 and still have a chance with the Europa league.
Really need a LWB in the transfer window at the very least.
We aren’t going to get relegated, we weren’t going to secure top 4 and still have a chance with the Europa league.
Really need a LWB in the transfer window at the very least.