League finishes since 2013:
7th
4th
5th
6th
2nd
6th
3rd
2nd
6th
3rd
8th
14th (current)
That feels like to me an upper mid-table team that’s fighting for top 4, with a few outliers.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
League finishes since 2013:
7th
4th
5th
6th
2nd
6th
3rd
2nd
6th
3rd
8th
14th (current)
That feels like to me an upper mid-table team that’s fighting for top 4, with a few outliers.
Then you don’t understand what mid table means. You must be counting about 60% of the league as mid table.
Average league position is 4.4 up until last season, so a struggle to call that mid-table. It’s a relatively narrow distinction, as we clearly haven’t been in a title race, but we’ve been consistent champions league qualifiers/challengers.
LVG and Mourinho? Don't recall either one having problems with Rashford. That didn't start until later.
No one would be delighted with a 17th place finish but we would all be delighted to see our club win a trophy, especially when its a European trophy that gets us in to the Champions League and gives us a chance of starting next season on a high by winning another European trophy in August.
No one will remember who finished 2nd this Premier League season, the story of the season will be all about Liverpool winning the title and will probably be spun by the press as the greatest underdog story since Leicester won it in 2016.
100%. 2nd place means we are very close to the top. We could win Europa in a month and I'd still say we are 3 to 4 excellent rebuilding years away from the top.
Depends how close we finished to 1st though. In 17/18 we finished 2nd 19 points behind City. Would you trade that 2nd place for a Europa?
Why is it embarrassing to win the Europa League? Even teams like Barca, and the unbeaten Leverkusen last season failed to win it
I don't agree that it's "embarrassing" but this years finalist could be 16th and 17th placed United and Spurs! The level of competition this year is awful.
Weird. When Mou and Ole finished 2nd it felt like we are grinding out results, riding our luck and we are miles behind City.
Just like Arsenal never felt remotely close to the title this season.
2nd place doesn't always mean you're competing with the champions.
Many cases where you are "best of the rest".
Would have said mid-table starts at 7th at the very highest but what I do know?
1-6 top teams (6 of them)
7-14 mid table (8 of them)
15-20 bottom teams (6 of them)
Got to have some sort of even split. Could also be 1-7 top, 8-13 mid, 14-20 bottom for a split of 7-6-7.
6th mid table? Not having it!
The Championship makes it easy with 8 in each.
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Mostly agree. Anyone could have seen that in Jose’s 2nd place finish we were in a false position and Liverpool were actually better than us and on the up. Same with Ole in some respects- the same warning signs were there in terms of performances and results (Europa League final prime example).
Point 3:
You would think fans or supporters of the team SAF managed for a quarter of a fecking century would understand a. how important culture is, and how it directly affects what happens on the pitch, and b. that it isn't something you can change overnight. Ultimately it doesn't change the fact that he'll rightfully be expected to show some progress next season, but it's baffling to me how many people posting in this thread are incapable of taking anything into account at this time beyond counting points. Arteta's success at Arsenal is down to reconfigure the dressing at the end of the day, but he showed progress on the way to getting that done, and Amorim will have to do the same.
Point 7:
I noticed this at Sporting, especially with the wing backs, which is another thing you can't get through to some posters in this thread. I've seen him use attacking inverted wingers in the "wingback" position in some matches, and more traditional fullbacks at the position in others and I assume it just depends on the opposition. Take Amad for example. When he's used as a wingback, I imagine we'll see a more traditional "10" on the right side, but when Amad is the "10" on that side you'll see a more traditional fullback in the "wingback" position. This might be the case for Bruno too. With Amad at "wingback" we might see Bruno in the "10" spot and two ball-winners in midfield. All these rigid positional terms used mean very little too, but the zenith of some people's understanding of the system is counting defenders. We currently don't have that rotational flexibility because there is literally nobody available for the "wingback" position other than players who bought or promoted to be used as traditional fullbacks.
This was a brilliant post you made, but it's going to be lost on the I can divide points accrued by number of games and that's all I need to know crowd. Lord give me strength for the sheer ignorance.
For me what Ole doesn't get enough credit for, and the driving force behind what he accomplished as far as league positions is getting Rashford, Martial and Greenwood all playing at close to the levels they're capable of. It's easy to forget now but all three were at times unplayable when they were on form, and depressingly levels above any of our current attackers, including the 2025 iteration of Rashford. If we had those three in form at the beginning of the 22/23 season, I'm fairly confident Ten Hag would still be around.
Maybe he can do a Kane
I really hope Amorim is a success here, but I can't help but see a bunch of red flags that we are repeating the same mistakes with him as we have done with every manager post Fergie.
We keep hearing how he needs time to train the players on his system. He's had over half a Premier League season and cup games to integrate his system and we look marginally better than we did from his first game. Since the rise of the system manager, for better or worse, you've seen teams be able to adapt to the managers system rather quickly (we adapted to LVG's 352 by our first preseason game). How long did it take Spurs to adapt to Ange's style of play? 6 league wins is entirely unacceptable.
So now we are going to go into the summer and target players for his system. If this doesn't work out, we'll have a surplus of #10's and wing backs who will likely be of no value to the next manager. Worse yet, because of our financial situation, we likely have to sell our brightest young players (Garnacho or Mainoo) to finance this. It's an ugly situation that if it doesn't work will set us back even further.
We keep hearing how he needs time to train the players on his system. He's had over half a Premier League season and cup games to integrate his system and we look marginally better than we did from his first game. Since the rise of the system manager, for better or worse, you've seen teams be able to adapt to the managers system rather quickly (we adapted to LVG's 352 by our first preseason game). How long did it take Spurs to adapt to Ange's style of play? 6 league wins is entirely unacceptable.
So now we are going to go into the summer and target players for his system. If this doesn't work out, we'll have a surplus of #10's and wing backs who will likely be of no value to the next manager. Worse yet, because of our financial situation, we likely have to sell our brightest young players (Garnacho or Mainoo) to finance this. It's an ugly situation that if it doesn't work will set us back even further.
Hmm, not quite sure I agree. He emphasised freedom and good team spirit, giving them considerable free rein and hoping their natural talents would shine. This worked in games where we had freedom, and we sometimes really turned on the style. However we consistently struggled with that forward line whenever we needed a coordinated tactical approach, being poor at pressing the opposition and equally poor at breaking down teams that sat really deep.
Ole's team were definitely the most attractive team we've had since Fergie, but I think his approach was ultimately a dead end and restricted those players from being as good as they could be. I don't want to absolve Rashford in particular of responsibility for his own limitations now, but he had his formative years (ages 19 to 23 I think?) under a manager who had a kind of "turn up when if you feel like it" attitude, and I don't think that helped his development.
I think it was more of a team wide discipline and professionalism issue than anything else. IIRC the year he finished second we dropped points to every single bottom 10 team. He just wasn't the manager to overcome the country club atmosphere fostered by the club at the time. Ten Hag faced the same issues and it at least seems like INEOS are backing Amorim's attempts to get rid of it.
How's Ange's "implementation" (no such thing as implementation after 6 matches) looking presently?
Trying to implement an entirely different system halfway through a season while you are playing two games a week, with all the traveling that includes, with a squad entirely unsuited to that system, while dealing with a handful of influential and overpriced divas who are looking to undermine you, the same way they've done to the coaches previous to you, is not as straight forward as you are making out.
He deserves a summer and preseason to embed his system properly. Yes we need to get him some players, the same way every club has to do for every manager.
We had a surplus of 10's long before he came along. We spent £60m on Mount while employing Bruno, Eriksen, Amad, Van de Beek, McTominay, Hannibal and Sancho. A top class wingback can be used as a good winger or fullback depending on where their strengths lie.
We need better recruitment and better signings all round - that doesn't mean we shouldn't hire players to suit the style of football we've hired a manager to play.
I would not invest substantial amount of players into his vision or ideas. What I would be doing is investing in players who are adaptable to all systems, are technically strong and have the right mentality. These players need to be club signings.
Amorim needs to learn to improve players and incorporate them into his system. He also needs to learn how to play several systems beyond this evidently failing 5-3-2 method that has only really ever worked adequately for winning trophies when Italians or Italian managers use it. He has shown nothing thus far to be entrusted with such investment. If he is still at united after 10 games next season, he will have done well. Manchester United owes nothing to Ruben Amorim and his time at the club is on the line.
I'm pretty sure there's more to the Rashford situation that lead to that interview. There were reports about the club wanting to force him out and then Amorim dropped him. It's not like he randomly decided to do the interview just because he got dropped.
Yep. I have a lot of time for Andy Mitten but him dogging out Rashford like that was awful. Completely rewrote his history at the club and goes against what other people including teammates have said. But it is what it is.
It's not unreasonable to think he can, but he is another punt. We've got to get lucky at some stage though, right? At least the price is reasonable but I'd much rather someone with a better pedigree who is more likely to demand service. Someone with a big ego. Certainly as the first choice. Like I think Garnacho would benefit from having a van Nistelrooy type who simply wouldn't accept the kind of service he provides.
Excellent post, well said.
good grief, he’s 22. You don’t ’fail’ in the 2nd tier when you’re 19-21 years old. You’re just learning.
Do we really want another project up top?
Seems like he’s the best available and realistic. We’d clearly be going for Gyokeres if he was keen, but he seems like he prefers Arsenal. Osi seems Saudi bound, then you’re left with the likes of Mateta, who has scored roughly the same as Delap and is 5 years older. Any other options are either too old or as much of a risk as Delap.
Fantastic post, this is why I beleive we have the right guy for the job.
The argument is that Amorim was succesful in Portugal and therefore he will succeed in England. An Ajax fan could have written the same about ETH. I am not impressed.
Spurs are quite an interesting case. First season - the switch from a defensive manager to very entertaining if a bit mental football was so fast and it's hard to say that season was not a success (8th up to 5th without Kane, scored 74 goals again up on a season with Kane) and you looked at them and thought if they can just shore up the backline they might become a serious team given they conceded 61 goals. Somewhat amazingly they then didn't buy a single defender and Ange refused to adapt at all.
They have still scored loads this season, they are on track to nearly double our goal tally depressingly but it's bonkers how little it seems Ange wants to address their weaknesses, as if he's too stubborn to even consider it. I saw their fan representative on the overlap saying even if he wins Europa he should be sacked and thought if ever something sums up football being bonkers that would be it. I think Ange is a plonker but if someone gets Spurs to win a major trophy in their second season (and the EL whilst not a PL/CL is the next best thing) and then gets sacked it will amaze me. It's genuinely the best possible realistic thing that club can win.
that's not how i read the post..... I understood it to be a description of how he works and what he does, not the easy "he was successful in Portugal" narrative you suggested. I think that's what INEOS was looking at, not the results in Portugal as such. Hence why I think they are aligned with Amorim and what he has done up so far.
For me 2 trophies in 2 years is pretty good. It's better than any of Arteta's years consecutively. Its just a shame he completely lost the plot in the end.
It depends how you perceive club standing. Erik's record certainly outperforms Arteta's in the period of his tenure from a competitive standpoint but as a manager he did nothing to improve the clubs standings in the league domestically or Europe.
It's the clubs standing that enables the team to be competitive so I would definitely take three second place finishes with reaching the latter stages of the UCL over an FA cup / domestic cup alongside recession in the league table. Far easier for Arsenal to attract a certain pool of talent despite historically and commercially United being the bigger entity.
No matter what we need to give him 3 players. We need a good striker no matter what, Hoijund is not the answer. We need a good RB or RWB because Dalot is not an answer. Bruno needs to be replaced so a creative player will be needed. Regardless of formation, we need 3 players. I am sure any new manager will need use good players. Give Amorim 3 players and 1 season, we can decide if we want to keep him in 2026.
I don't really agree with the idea that buying players for Amorim means we'll be left with a load of players that won't suit another manager and different system. There are ways for the club to support Amorim's rebuild without going all the way in on him. We need a striker no matter what. We need a goalkeeper. Cunha is interesting because he can fit a number of positions so isn't specific to Amorim. None of those should be hugely system specific. We do have to get him a good wingback option so that may the place where they would buy someone who won't fit if things don't work out. But even then they could go with less of a specialist. If we bought a new CB sure we might have more than we need if we ended up only playing with 2 CBs... but when do we ever have enough CBs
Getting rid of Garnacho and Mainoo would certainly suggest they are going all in on 343/5221, although I'm not convinced he wants rid of them anyway.
Ultimately we need players that are physically right for the league. Pace, power, and proper determination. Amorim has talked about this being an issue, so I think he and the club know what we're looking for.
Getting rid of Garnacho and Mainoo would certainly suggest they are going all in on 343/5221, although I'm not convinced he wants rid of them anyway.
Ultimately we need players that are physically right for the league. Pace, power, and proper determination. Amorim has talked about this being an issue, so I think he and the club know what we're looking for.
2 FA Cups vs 1 FA Cup. Hardly the stuff of titans. And he left your club in a disaster zone not even Arteta has ever managed in our worst ever seasons. There is no comparison. Noone in their sane mind would take ETH's 2 trophies against our one and claim the former is better. If we win the CL even this poor excuse regularly trotted out will cease.
The best example is ourselves, who won 3 out of 4 FA cups in mid 2010s yet noone in their right mind would consider that a success during those years. No Arsenal fan cares at all as we were a laughing stock despite those trophies, the utter humiliation and batterings in the league and Europe erased any 'success' beating the super clubs of Hull and Villa in the FA Cup. Every single one of us would take CL semi appearances with the potential to win the thing, beating top teams and being super competitive once again with some of the best players and having some respect next to our name, than the above.
If you'd rather take the 2 trophies and be in the near relegation position you're now and claim more success than I guess agree to disagree.
I am just astounded at how awful some United fans have set their standards to. I should laugh but when I post here I do it without the stupid football tribalism or trolling and I am staggered at how low expectations have fallen for one of the biggest clubs in history. And this is me, a rival fan, appalled at some of the posts here. I'll be blunt and honest.
There is no big club, across Europe, who wouldn't have sacked Amorim. I am amazed a guy like him, with no connections at all, to United garners such fierce loyalty.
My post might be a bit blunt but my honest take, hope it's taken in the spirit which it was written in.
It wasn't actually 2 FA Cups. The difference between the two is actually a League Cup.
That's what I've found difficult to wrap my head around. I read some posts and my instinctive reaction, as an Arsenal fan, is, 'This Manchester United we're talking about'.
It’s nothing to do with setting standards, though. It’s a comparison between two specific teams. Ten Hag was miles below United standard and no one would argue that, but he still achieved greater success than Arteta.
1 FA Cup and 1 League Cup with him leaving the team mid-table, breaking records for being poor along the way versus 1 FA Cup and a team challenging for honors and now in the CL semi final with a real chance at winning it is hardly more success.
I have been on RedCafe, as a lurker, since 2008, I still remember the derision the League Cup was treated by.