It's not that black and white. If he signed a proven goalscorer, I'm sure his win rate wouldn't be as low as it is now, but I don't think it would be a significantly higher win rate. We'd still be boring to watch most games and we'd likely continue to lose the midfield battle vs athletlic teams who outnumber our 2 man midfield.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
This a truly bizarre response, mate.
Firstly, the very first thing I say is that I don’t think he should be sacked.
Secondly, I never say that Arteta wasn’t inexperienced.
Thirdly, my point is that not only is Amorim inexperienced, but that he has no prior connection to the club. Unlike Arteta who lifted two FA Cups as Arsenal’s Captain. Therefore, I find the fierce loyalty Amorim has fostered (which is full display here) a little puzzling.
Finally, Arteta won the FA Cup as Manager within six months of being appointed, beating City and Chelsea along the way. Also, though we finished 8th, that’s because we were bottom half when he was appointed. Had the league started when he was appointed that December, we would have finished 5th. Whereas, had the league started when Amorim was appointed last November, United would be 16th with only one place separating them from the relegation spots.
Why on earth is this the response to a neutral fan saying “maybe one of the biggest clubs in the world deserve more than writing off an entire season in November”? That’s a compliment, if anything.
Amorim the media darling and most rated (is he?)Portuguese manager in the premier league is performing the worst of the 4.
Nuno, Marco and Vitor are having great seasons. Amorim not so much.
Just adding more fuel to the fire.
The Europa league is a must win for him to turn it around. He can do it!
Nuno, Marco and Vitor are having great seasons. Amorim not so much.
Just adding more fuel to the fire.
The Europa league is a must win for him to turn it around. He can do it!
We’re two points off 17th place. That’s not just mid table. If any of the three promoted teams had been somewhat decent this season we would be facing a genuine relegation battle.
Which is unsurprising seeing as we have a manager who has won just 27% of his PL games since November.
It’s actually outrageous just how bad he’s been. And how he’s managed to gaslight so many into believing that this is the genuine level of this squad.
And for what it’s worth, I really like the guy and desperately want him to succeed. Just like I wanted ETH to succeed. But he’s been an unmitigated disaster so far. And anyone that won’t accept that is truly in denial.
The best takes on him so far are generally coming from the opposition fans, because they’re not being emotionally swayed by him as a person and they are looking objectively at how bad a job he is doing.
I know the current situation is different and we have to take that into account but it’s still very weird for a manager to be 14th in one of the biggest clubs in the world and still have a job.
Hope is a powerful drug.
Where would you rank our forward line (with Amad injured) in the PL?
For the umpteenth time, losing lot of games is not a proven path to awesomeness. I understand that people are arguing against the notion that Amorim needs to change his ways and grind out results, but just because managers adapting their methods to the existing team has not worked out in the past, doesn't prove the opposite.
It is all a theory. I would love to give Amorim time, not because he is Lisan al Gaib, but only because its a logical thing to do. Managers cannot wave wands and create magic. They need some time. And he deserves it, just like ETH or Mou did.
Is it really (much) worse than Fulham's?
We won't bank on us winning the European cup and I think Ineos thinks likewise. European cup and entry to Champion league will be a bonus. Ineos will plan the transfers accordingly regardless if we win. We will see us buying young players with potential and maybe 1-2 established players e.g. striker. I think we are set of defenders and don't need reinforcement. ideally I want 5 signings - GK, RWB, CM, AM and ST. It will improve our overall quality and having adequate backup. If we can't sign 5 then we need at least 3 and it will be a striker (must!), AM and RWB/CM.
It's worse but they are one of the lower bars.
Yes it is a low bar but they are well ahead of us in the table, how do you explain that?
I think this is a great post. Our squad isn't as bad as being made out and the results haven't been acceptable. Blaming that all on Ten Hag or the upper management is wearing a little thin with me.
Amorim seems a top guy. He is candid, honourable and, unlike Ten Hag, has charisma. He's also very young for a manager. We're all pulling for him to succeed personally. A resurgent United led by a young, hip manager with a good personality would be incredible. We all want the next big thing in management and Ruben seemed primed to fit that bill. Especially as others in contention like Alonso or Arteta wouldn't come to us and Nagelsmann seems an awkward sod.
Maguire's improved under Amorim. de Ligt maybe. Amad for a while (but really, that started under Ruud). But who else? The players aren't looking better individually. I've seen some moments that intrigue me about the possibility for the future, especially in us keeping possession better, though I'd say that it's sometimes looking quite slow and Van Gaal-esque possession and ultimately seems a bit useless. There's definitely been other glimpses of something positive, but I'd say we were playing better in Amorim's first few games than his more recent ones. Also, his first big signing in Dorgu looks technically quite poor so far.
I'm still very much inclined to back him. I'm worried that we're targeting niche players for a niche manager and then will go back to 4321 under a new manager and that'll leave some players a bit redundant. If we back this horse, we're going to have to back him big but maybe we'd be well minded on signing players who can fit a more conventional system (i.e. signing wing backs who can play as wingers/full backs, signing number 10s who can play wide/up front etc.).
I am troubled a bit by the notion that 'once Amorim gets his players, he will cook'. That may well be true, and I sincerely hope it is, but I was definitely hoping for more of our current lot to shine and more youngsters to be introduced by now. Good management isn't just about bringing in specific players to fit an exact style. It's about quality coaching, encouraging positivity and some adaptability. He did fantastically at Sporting but there's a huge difference between the Prem and the Primeira. We really don't know if he's good enough at this level and have certainly not seen enough evidence thus far. I think, in the cold light of day, the honest fact is that a lot of our hope in Amorim is based on what he did at Sporting and how he seems like a good man. Plus the feeling that we just need to commit to a vision. That doesn't mean he's the right guy with the right vision and doesn't guarantee that the picture will come together with all of his pieces in place. For me, it's perfectly valid to look at this without sentiment and not to dismiss those who have massive concerns as knee-jerkers or whatever.
I'd be absolutely delighted if we came back to the promised land with this guy at the helm. Probably even more than if an Ancelotti type did it. He's a man we can be proud to have representing us. But assuming it's just a case of bringing in his players, totally uprooting our squad and going on blind faith is looking more and more frivolous and potentially very costly. I really really hope that the likes of Wilcox and Vivell know what they're doing.
First off, we haven’t had bad managers. We have lots of issues, and they don‘t disappear magically when the next manager gets to work.Okay Amorim out brigade. I want to know who you want instead.
I'm not talking caretakers either. Permanent manager who would take the current squad and have them winning every week within a couple of months. They are only allowed one first team signing as well, and if they don't have united winning within 6 months they get fired.
The squad has improved over the last three years, but not enough. Biggest glaring issue is the striker position. We‘ve had three expensive wingers as well who did not work out.
Those two problems are enough to throw a team down the table.
When Amorim came in, I said he would have the same problems as Ten Hag. He does.
Formation and tactics aren‘t a main reason why we are where we are, although Amorim could have won more games with more pragmatic adaptive tactical decisions.
But he hasn‘t shown enough for me to trust him with a new season. Not enough wins, not enough improvement.
We need a new manager and a couple quality signings. One signing won‘t be enough unless no guaranteed starter ever gets injured.
Bigger talent than Neves in your opinion?
This summer our so called best in class people in the football structure need to really show their worth.
1) If Amorim is the way forward, back him with signings. We don't want him to be sacked come next Dec and we throw away another season.
OR
2) Decide that Amorim may not be the right manager to bring us forward by end of the season. Identify another more suitable manager to start next season afresh.
They need to be decisive and competent to make the call. They have throw away this season by extending ETH contract. We don't want another same mistakes next season.
1) If Amorim is the way forward, back him with signings. We don't want him to be sacked come next Dec and we throw away another season.
OR
2) Decide that Amorim may not be the right manager to bring us forward by end of the season. Identify another more suitable manager to start next season afresh.
They need to be decisive and competent to make the call. They have throw away this season by extending ETH contract. We don't want another same mistakes next season.
Rashford is gone mostly because of his wages. If Casemiro had a market he'd have been gone too.
SJR has already said that we are broke.
Classic hindsight is 20/20 argument. It would be better if you said both ETH and Amorim aren’t good enough. Waiting around for ETH to come good was a mistake after the FA Cup win, and it would have been a mistake to allow him to continue.
Circular argument. If we haven’t had bad managers, why would you sack Amorim? Furthermore, why do we need another manager if he’s not bad?
You’re saying the squad has improved. Where? No quality LB, Antony & Hojlund are busts, Maz and Deligt are squad players in top sides, Yoro is too young as of now, Mount and Malacia always injured. 600m spent (ETH has a transfer veto, at the very least said yes to all incoming transfers over 5 windows).
Why would you give EtH a pass with a 3rd, 8th and 12th, a horrendous Europe record and 600m, yet not give Amorim the same grace after one measly signing?
The squad has improved, no question, especially the defense. There are numerous issues however.
A manager doesn‘t always work out or hits a dead end. Look at the Forest manager for example.
Why give Amorim a pass for doing worse? He was hired to improve us.
To be fair, if Amorim doesn’t win the Europa League, I think there’s a huge chance the majority of fans will be scathing in their criticism of the decision makers when they eventually sack Amorim in October.
They’ll be calling not firing him after the season a much worse decision than allowing ETH to stay and some crap “hindsight” arguments too. At least ETH had just won an FA Cup.
At this point in time, ETH is light years ahead of Amorim at managing Manchester United, yet ultimately he was a bit wank.
Allowing him such a fecking horrendous start, and let’s be brutally honest here, it’s absolutely MILES worse than even the most pessimistic fans expected, with no redeeming factor other than charisma and trophies in Portugal would be called criminal. ETH was sacked mid season and Amorim hired, to improve us. Instead we have the form (1 point per game) of a team that would usually be in danger of relegation.
This is a squad that shouldn’t be anywhere near relegation form, despite the bizarre mental gymnastics from some fans. It’s crystal clear the change in formation has made our already weak front line, much weaker, and made our defence, even with 2 extra defenders, much weaker also, this had lead to many less victories per game, and many more defeats.
The ONLY silver linings currently are our form in big games, and the Europa League.
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If we are buying Cunha while having a lot of players who are no10 or can play on that position (Bruno, Garnacho, Mount, Zirkzee, Mainoo) i wonder does he see Amad as long term solution on right wingback?
Feel sorry for Amad if so, unless it’s a drastic change in how that role will be played.
It should be. Didn't he say in one of his interviews (and the way how he played in Sporting) that he prefers wingbacks playing as wingers. But while team was learning his system he needed more defensive and natural full backs there.
Or maybe i was reading between lines.
Question for any stats minded folk. What is our expected points under Amorim and are we overperforming, underperforming or on par?
I recall last season we were oveeperforming our expected points by quite a lot.
I recall last season we were oveeperforming our expected points by quite a lot.
We should be 8th on xp and 48 points, not sure what we should be just for Amorim’s time v ETH/Ruud.
City should be top.
Last season we should’ve finished on 52 points according ti xP.
You summarised most fair criticisms, one thing you picked up on, which I don’t see discussed on here is when speaking of the job of a new manager is to get the best out of the squad inherited. Most united fans seem to live under the spectre of Fergie, where they’re expecting any new managerial appointment to ultimately usher in another dynastic era, and therefore prepared to wait for any new manager to buy in his own squad.
Whereas every other club, in every tier of football, the expectation is primarily to get the most out of the current group of players, even Bayern and co. would say to a new hire, more or less “here’s your players, get on with it’.
With us it’s like we can’t judge until any new appointment has spent half a billion on new players.
Thanks that's suggestive of what I've suspected, that underlying performances are better than results. Obviously need to see just for Amorim to be sure
Different positions, hard to tell.
Neves is a cm, established player already. Mora is an Am, maybe even a second striker, the things he is doing at 17 are incredible.
No 17 old player has scored 8 goals in the Portuguese league in half a century or something. Not even CR7 was this lethal at this age. He has ballon dor potencial.
Obviously he is still green, needs to improve his decision making. He has improved a lot defensively but he is still a kid, improving day by day.
He has moments of absolute genius, his creativity and technique are amazing but he is not at Yamal’s level of consistency and maturity yet. Not even close.
The best for him would be to stay at Porto a couple of years as a first starter to improve even more.
I don’t think he is ready for the premier league, he is too small, needs to bulk up a bit, the intensity would be too much for him at this point, but I might be wrong, the way he is improving is astonishing.
Hopefully he will be smart enough to not follow Felix footsteps.
But I’m sure the the big sharks won’t wait long but I’m sure AVB will play hardball at least for him to stay another year.
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And we’d be out of Europe.
Do people who claim "squad is not as bad as it looks" actually understand the issue?
We have good defense and somewhat decent midfield.
Our attack is horrible and this is dragging us down.
Hojlund is easily the worst striker in the league, with the second worst being two steps ahead of him.
Garnacho is wildly inconsistent.
Mount is a fecking joke.
Our bright spot Amad is injured.
Zirkzee who showed glimpses of quality is injured.
Our attack force is bottom 3 quality right now. We rely on midfielders and defenders to score.
Also, our GK is bottom half quality.
We have good defense and somewhat decent midfield.
Our attack is horrible and this is dragging us down.
Hojlund is easily the worst striker in the league, with the second worst being two steps ahead of him.
Garnacho is wildly inconsistent.
Mount is a fecking joke.
Our bright spot Amad is injured.
Zirkzee who showed glimpses of quality is injured.
Our attack force is bottom 3 quality right now. We rely on midfielders and defenders to score.
Also, our GK is bottom half quality.
Agreed. If money really is tight then the entire budget needs to be used on a new front 3
Imagine we had
Cunha, Cherki and Gyokeres in our squad and how much that would likely improve us.
We'd need to sell Rashford, Antony, Sancho and Garnacho and we'd still need one midfielder but that as a front 3.... boom
Who do Fulham have up front that allows them to be 9th ?
I think if you look at the stats closely, we concede more under Amorim, despite playing more defenders. So he’s inexplicably made one of the areas we are strongest (as you agree), weaker.
Are you gonna argue this set of defensive players should concede so many goals and chances simply because our striker is crap?
Bottom line is that Amorim has made us better in big games and worse in the majority of games (smaller teams). Most likely that’s simply due to his formation.
The appointment is starting to show how bad it was. He may or may not be a good coach (doesn’t look like it in PL standards) but the squad was totally unsuited to his style. The club were committing to buying a full squad almost to accommodate him - was never going ti work.
Wrong manager at the wrong time and the results are painful for United fans. Utterly painful.
If he’s not sacked at the end of the season, they we are in deep trouble. He will be gone a few months into the season and the squad will be a fit for no manager.
Muniz and Jimenez shit on Hojlund all day long, is this a serious question?
I'll take them both over Hojlund and Mount every day and twice on sundays.
We concede mainly through individual errors. You seem to foget how every team just tore through us in ETH era. We don't concede many chances- usually it takes the opposition 1-2 shots to score. Just look at Newcastle's 4 goals - might aswell have been 4 own goals.
It's so damn obvious that we lose games because we don't score, I can't believe you even want to argue.
You absolve him of any responsibility for the teams performances, absolutely none of it is down to him is that what you are saying?
Not sure what the source for that is. I imagine it's Footystats, which has United at 48 xPts. But they are 9th, not 8th. Understat has United at 45 xPts and 12th.
You have to exercise a lot of caution with these type of models. Footystats has Manchester City at the top of the xPts table with a 20-point-gap between expected and actual. Meanwhile the Understat model has them 4th and with no gap between expected and actual.
Hojlund scored as many league goals last season as Jimenez has this season. Without penalties. Does he really shit all over him?
I'm not looking to use it as a big argument either way, but more about the overall trend. Which I conclude is that we are slightly underperforming our expected points this season compared to overperforming them last season.
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Hojlund had one purple patch and his overall game is terrible. And we're not comparing last season, are we?
This season a 33-years old striker puts our "young superstar" in his backpocket.
If Hojlund managed 10 goals ans 3 assists in the league so far this season, we would've been much higher in the table.
He had a few average performances, few bad and some atrocious ones.
Again - what do you expect to happen to a team with shit number 9 and shit goalie?
We’re comparing them as players. Jimenez has scored four more open play goals in the league this season. They’ve outscored us by ten and have an extra ten points.