Relegation ends the club, it simply doesn't survive in its current form but even me, a raging pessimist thinks we'll be fine on that front if only for the simple reason that Ipswich are utter wank. We have a 10 point buffer to them and a massive GD difference and we have them at home in a few weeks.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
This whole relegation debate is funny. We wont get relegated 100%. Why nobody is talking about Tottenham getting relegated - right, because nobody sells papers as noone is interested.
Go touch grass mate. Every single post you’re flapping
Can we sack garethw?
There were a lot made for him but none were valid for his horrendous eye for a player.
It’s not significant at all. My dog barking at cats is more significant.
I am hoping! That’s pretty much all we can do. For what it’s worth this “lot” have had one transfer window going after what looked like ETH approved targets and so I will withhold judgement until the end of the summer.
If we get three quality first-teamers in I think you’d be surprised how far we can go, but three hits is tough.
The Southampton comeback probably saved us from relegation. If we end this window without any loans or incomings then we are fecked for this season though. I'm sure the attack could limp us thru but not getting any wingback would be the greater feck off. Would allow maz to go back to cb where he was better. Allows more attack from wide. Would make a huge difference. We would be able to see more of what amorin wants to be moving forward
But this club seems even worse than before. Window fast approaching and just the one outgoing loan
But this club seems even worse than before. Window fast approaching and just the one outgoing loan
jeez, it's not for the players to decide what system they want to play! The day we start sacking managers after a couple of months because the players (many of whom have massively underachieved for years) don't like playing in a different formation is the day I give up on football.
People are talking about a different formation as though the players are being asked to do something massively different to what they are used to - it's just a different system, not a different game. We have a lot of players whose natural instinct is not to work hard, fight for every ball, and run till they drop - that should be the bare minimum for any player that pulls on the United shirt, and if Ruben is weeding them out then that is fecking great. results are not the most important thing just at the moment.
The club is operating within its means. It didn't before and now we're broke, sad but true!
Not many teams play with wingbacks so not easy to sign one in January, but totally agree that we need one. What we are served each week is the new normal: 1 p per game on average.
I think that the talk that players refuse to change and adapt is a bit silly. Fans often talk of players as if, by being excellent athletes, they are machines. They are not. United players are not giving up. That has become the narrative and I get tired of it. The problems lie elsewhere!
One very real possibility is that since this current crop of players have come to Manchester United, they may be overrated and not as skilled and talented as promoted. I watch every match, and I can see that few players have the first touch that I see on quality teams such as Liverpool or Real Madrid. Amad generally has a very good first touch. Mainoo's is fairly good. Fernandes' first touch is very inconsistent; it can be sublime or extremely bad. Receiving the ball, then making the next move quickly is essential to playing excellent football. For the most part, United's players are simply not very good, or at least, not consistent at this.
Also, Watch the passing. An accurate pass has become an endangered species. Again, a few players are better at this, and again, Amad and Mainoo are probably the most consistent at making good passes. Fernandes, again, is very inconsistent. He can send a great ball to someone's feet or head from 30 yards and look magnificent, then 10 minutes later make a horrible pass in United's own half that leads toward the opponent having a threat on goal. Watch the top teams: they pass the ball with much more accuracy.
Look at how many poor attempts on goal we see. Garnacho has scored goals, but it also looks like he is trying to send a ball out of Old Trafford sometimes. Antony is finally gone; he was worse. Fernandes again is very inconsistent.
Defensively, Maguire is slow and his best defense is grabbing people. He can be effective, but he is prone to poor judgement. Martinez plays hard, but sometime recklessly, both giving away unnecessary free kicks and getting himself out of position. Yoro looks promising. De Ligt has his good moments, but you can see why Bayern and Juventus were willing to part with him, also. Watch him move. He does not move fluidly and smoothly like other big defenders like Rio used to or like Van Dijk.
I don't think that I need to say anything about the goalkeepers or strikers.
I don't think that the problem is lack of effort, lack of trying, not wanting to play. I just don't think the players are as talented as advertised. Then the last 3 managers have thrown the players under the bus rather than accepting responsibility. Fans regularly turn on the players. I'd say that it sucks to play for United at this moment.
We play a lot of teams whose players are definitely not as talented as ours. And almost without fail they work harder than us. Have you seen our running stats over the last few years? Forget Real Madrid and Liverpool, we struggle to compete with Southampton and Ipswich.
I don't think this is about talent as much as this is about attitude, athleticism and application. We have signed too many players that are lacking in those areas and the idea that a manager that has only been here for a couple of months should carry the can for that is madness. You talk about the last 3 managers throwing the players under the bus, but it's the players that are still here - the managers (2 of them anyway) have been sacked.
In summary I disagree with pretty much everything you've written.
I have to disagree with this sentiment. The implicit idea is that players are like cogs in a machine. It simply does not work that way. Each individual footballer has their own talents and skills. Even conditioning is not naturally the same for every individual. For example, not everyone can train to run a 3-hour marathon. People are physically different, even elite athletes.
Amorim's system demands that especially the wingbacks run forward and back very much. Not everyone is capable. They must be capable defensively and good enough on the ball to function as winger in attack. They need to be able to score occasionally and pass effectively. Not just anyone can do this. The #10s are also expected to do more than the typical running in his system.
Here is what I have seen since he has come. Basically in defense, United is expected to be in a 5-4-1. The wingbacks drop back to play as left back and right back, and the #10s drop into wide midfield roles. In attack, United is expected to be in what amounts to a 3-2-4-1. The wingbacks move up into more traditional right and left wing roles, and then there are two #10s who have moved up from a wide midfield position. The 3 centre backs and the two midfielders are supposed to remain disciplined enough to prevent quick counterattacks, while allowing the possibility for going forward at times.
I think that perhaps an underexpected problem for Amorim is that the pace of the Premier League is much faster than he anticipated. It might be a bit easier to play his system in Portugal than England. It will take much better athletes to do what his players at Sporting were doing in Lisbon.
I respectfully and vehemently disagree. I think that this is simply falling into the media narrative.
Having poor players is a pretty fecking valid excuse tbf.
Lack of effort, trying and not wanting to play... at least one, if not all of these are rife in this squad and the last 3 managers have not accepted responsibility...?
For what exactly, and what is your suggestion on where the issue is?
My view:
The club is toxic, utterly toxic and one man alone cannot clean this up.
Its taken years to get like this and we did have someone who had the balls to lay it bare, but he got sacked, then someone else comes in who folds and starts towing the line, eventually gets sacked as the PLAYERS all down tools, stop training, refuse to play, etc so then that manager gets sacked... and here we are, a new guy who has shown he can do the job and is trying but again PLAYERS.... the one group who cannot get sacked, just sold if they feel like going elsewhere if the offer is what they want or stick around and stink the place up (hi Marcus)...
This club is exactly where it deserves to be and we have someone who is trying to dig it out, almost on his own it would seem at the moment from the outside looking in.
The sooner we can sack players for not performing the better, seems ok for managers and everyone else, why not players too?
This is the first internally generated sack race I've seen at the club. Literally not even an hint from the club and fans are talking about it being imminent.
I like Amorim — he is an excellent communicator and very charismatic. But United hiring a manager who’s married to one formation is a quite crazy to me. Especially if it means you're about to go buy wing-backs (which is a very niche role).
United have done this dance of buying players specific to a coach (or their formation) before. Remember Moronho? He showed up, showered Raiola with tens of millions in two seasons, and left with players United have since kicked to the curb. He booted LVG signing Blind because he was too “slow” as a center back for his system—then we went ahead and splurged on Maguire for his “ball-playing” skills, only for Caftards to then be pining for Blind’s ball playing at Ajax.
Then came Ole’s "British first", which panned out well IMO in terms of playing personnel (aside from the insane transfer fees and wages). Next came Rangnick, who convinced everyone for half a season that United should only buy players recommended by the sporting director. Of course, that all went out the window the second Ten Hag rolled in with suitcases full of his Eredivisie favorites for record fees.
And here you are again, apparently ignoring every single lesson from the last 11 years. If United buy guys like Mendes (no matter how good he is at the moment) just because he once worked with Amorim and a wingback, then the future doesn't look great for the club.
If you're just going to let him rebuild the entire squad (again) around a specific formation, you’re pretty much setting yourselves up to regret it when the next manager inevitably shows up and wants a whole different set of toys.
So yea, while Amorim might have the potential to be a great coach, he most likely isn't the best fit for United. The lack of fit raises doubts about his future in my mind.
United have done this dance of buying players specific to a coach (or their formation) before. Remember Moronho? He showed up, showered Raiola with tens of millions in two seasons, and left with players United have since kicked to the curb. He booted LVG signing Blind because he was too “slow” as a center back for his system—then we went ahead and splurged on Maguire for his “ball-playing” skills, only for Caftards to then be pining for Blind’s ball playing at Ajax.
Then came Ole’s "British first", which panned out well IMO in terms of playing personnel (aside from the insane transfer fees and wages). Next came Rangnick, who convinced everyone for half a season that United should only buy players recommended by the sporting director. Of course, that all went out the window the second Ten Hag rolled in with suitcases full of his Eredivisie favorites for record fees.
And here you are again, apparently ignoring every single lesson from the last 11 years. If United buy guys like Mendes (no matter how good he is at the moment) just because he once worked with Amorim and a wingback, then the future doesn't look great for the club.
If you're just going to let him rebuild the entire squad (again) around a specific formation, you’re pretty much setting yourselves up to regret it when the next manager inevitably shows up and wants a whole different set of toys.
So yea, while Amorim might have the potential to be a great coach, he most likely isn't the best fit for United. The lack of fit raises doubts about his future in my mind.
It is but there are other managers out there that could have got this squad playing much better Football than Ruben currently has us playing
Yeah that's not really true
1. How do you know that?
2. Who?
Not really an excuse to be performing well below their quality, no. He has quite a few good players.
Rather than ask the overrated names to step up people are asking the manager to give them training wheels. What more do they want? Ten Hag said it and Amorim is showing it. It's a new manager that can't implement his football. It's the same types who went at SAF for having a clear out when he got here. Before someone goes there, no, he isn't SAF. But Garnacho and Rashford also aren't Giggs and Beckham. We'll get over it.
We finished 8th last season. And we massively overperformed. Understat for example had us on 15th on xPTS, with 44.42.
We do not have many good players. And our biggest problem is that many of our senior players are nowhere to be seen (Shaw, Rashford, Casemiro, Mount, Eriksen), either because they are constantly injured or completely finished. We are relying on and placing an absurd amount of pressure on a load of young players, it's no wonder we are where we are.
ETH underperforming doesn't mean Amorim isn't as well
There are other managers out there that wouldnt have the squad playing terribly in a setup they cant play and certainly wouldnt have lost 7 of their first 10 games
I would never have gone for Ruben as his tactic doesnt fit our squad, I would have gone for someone like Nagglesman
With the same set of players being the common denominator in both scenarios. Consider the 3rd scenario Amorim and Ten Hag underperforming doesn't mean the players aren't also cack.
Amorim himself says he's doing a poor job so far. Don't really understand why that's so hard to accept. Doesn't mean I want him out or lost faith, but he's struggled massively so far
It was a huge risk to hire someone using an unfamiliar system using specialist roles (wingbacks) and not proven in the PL.
The obvious difference being that ETH had been here 2 1/2 years while Amorim has been here 2 months with no pre-season.
I always find it funny when posters state with such utter confidence that a coach is "underperforming", or that other coaches would do a better job. I mean, yeah, hypothetically in the short term I'm sure other coaches could get better results with this squad in the time Amorim has been in charge. Maybe even Moyes. So what? It's such a ridiculously simplistic and short-sighted perspective.
Would you rather have taken Moyes if it meant 3-5 more points at this stage?
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On the contrary it's well accepted. He also said it himself we will use the rest of the season to suffer so we can be further ahead next season. That's what we want people to accept. No one is in denial about what is playing out. Why is sack even being mentioned in a dead rubber season we already knew would come with growing pains? I know those Europa league positions are tempting but we can sacrifice a little while longer.
Not engaging in any sack discussion, that would be utterly silly unless shit really hits the fan.
Sorry if I picked the wrong person for my point, I just think people are giving him a bit too much of an easy time because there are so many mitigating factors
Completely agree. Trying to turn United into another version of Ajax or Sporting is just as mental as the "galactico" phase under Woodward. It's just another form of mental.
A big reason for that was a crisis of injuries at the back and a style of play that was not sustainable.
Weve since then improved or squad especially at the back (where goals conceded were a big issue). This squad is very much capable of finishing top half, to suggest otherwise is exaggeration for me. We have good players generally speaking, for 433 or 4231 except the striker position itself and probably a right winger.
Well we’re not broke as we have a new billionaire owner. Unless he’s also a parasite like his pals the Glazers.
Amad isnt good enough?
Oh yeah I forgot about him! Probably the last person I should forget given the season..
Yep. We're also about to sell/loan 2 of our only goal threats after selling another (McTominay) in the summer.
Many of our players are overrated here and wouldn't make top 10 first XIs.
Makes sense if its Ten Hag's alt account
