Agreed, quality players should be able to function in any system or style, we lack quality in the squad and the club will have to spend but perhaps couple of good specialist WBs and a striker can be a starting point, we don't need to spend 300m to make it work, it can be done with smart signings and promotion of quality youth players.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
FFP has been in place for years now. It's also being revamped for next season.
The scouts have never been the problem, it’s the previous decision makers at the top.
I'm not sure what you're expecting a response to. It's pretty obvious to most people that there is a middle ground between not being given any responsibility on one hand and leaning too heavily on the player on the other.
Just because Mbappe is ready to be the key player for his side at a certain age doesn't mean that's the right thing for every young player, and of course the pressures of playing for Monaco are different to the pressures playing in a failing United side.
Honestly at this stage - and very mindful of the memes, and kneejerkism in general - we should both mutually agree to terminate his deal.
That's not because I don't think he's not a good manager or can't succeed here (the reality is I don't know, it's hard to extrapolate from his time at Sporting). I really hope he does. But it doesn't look to me like Amorim is a tactical genius let down by his players right now. It looks like we have a flawed system that teams now know how to exploit, combined with players who aren't good enough and aren't suited to it.
I think the risks and fallout of him failing are just too big at this stage. Firstly in terms of toxicity around the club in general if we continue to flounder around 13th. Secondly if we end up churning the squad to fit a niche formation, when are don't have the money to undo that. Right now he seems intent on basically selling all of our wingers except Amad - good luck buying any half decent ones if we go back to any wide player formation.
Right now we need to focus on going from 13th to 6th-4th, and it feels like Amorim's methods are too dogmatic to get there.
That's not because I don't think he's not a good manager or can't succeed here (the reality is I don't know, it's hard to extrapolate from his time at Sporting). I really hope he does. But it doesn't look to me like Amorim is a tactical genius let down by his players right now. It looks like we have a flawed system that teams now know how to exploit, combined with players who aren't good enough and aren't suited to it.
I think the risks and fallout of him failing are just too big at this stage. Firstly in terms of toxicity around the club in general if we continue to flounder around 13th. Secondly if we end up churning the squad to fit a niche formation, when are don't have the money to undo that. Right now he seems intent on basically selling all of our wingers except Amad - good luck buying any half decent ones if we go back to any wide player formation.
Right now we need to focus on going from 13th to 6th-4th, and it feels like Amorim's methods are too dogmatic to get there.
He isn't excluding anyone out of spite. People are just out of touch on how sustainable finances are supposed to work because Woodwardnomics has conditioned us to hold on to anything half decent.
You need to raise funds to improve and bad players don't sell for 50m. The logic of getting a manager to implement a sustainable system is precisely so your every replacements don't need to cost 100m. It's not going to cost anywhere close to 400m to 'build a squad'. Just look at the profile of players we're already linked with.
edit; If we had the balls and foresight to sell Martial and Pogba back when it was clear they weren't going to hit required standard we wouldn't be where we currently are. Instead we kept bringing in managers to get the most of them, fretting over their real position and lost them for next to nothing and little to show but the odd cup.
You need to raise funds to improve and bad players don't sell for 50m. The logic of getting a manager to implement a sustainable system is precisely so your every replacements don't need to cost 100m. It's not going to cost anywhere close to 400m to 'build a squad'. Just look at the profile of players we're already linked with.
edit; If we had the balls and foresight to sell Martial and Pogba back when it was clear they weren't going to hit required standard we wouldn't be where we currently are. Instead we kept bringing in managers to get the most of them, fretting over their real position and lost them for next to nothing and little to show but the odd cup.
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Very difficult situation. Amorim does not inspire me at all and is tactically very rigid. With these poor players and no money we will end up 8-15th this and next season. Another manager might do a better job, Silva, Iraola, but I can’t see us firing Amorim soon.
And replace him with who? Amorim might inevitably have to go but considering how long we gave EtH he deserves at least a pre-season
10 players a 40m will not get you top players. Gyökeres might be 80m.
Silva and Iraola would still need different players to what we have to play the way they want. It might look less shambolic in the short term, but it would just be standing still
We're not replacing the whole squad. A misfiring team doesn't equal 11 transfers.
Agree with the general point, the team is crying out for upgrades
But disagree with what I've quoted here, that's never been the case
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Silva, Frank and Iraola are proven in the PL and would mean less of a squad change than Amorim and his fullbacks and 2 10s. The decision has been made but I wouldn't sleep so well if I were Berrada. We are a poor team, poor players not helped by the coaching.
A squad are 22 players and our starting XI need 9 new players.
I can't tell if you're honest in your belief or just trying to make the task look insurmountable.
We have 2 lucky PL wins since Amorim took over. Getting 2 new players in won't change much. I have zero trust in these players. 100m might get you one wingback and one striker if you are lucky. We spent 40m on Zirkzee...
Since Everton and Forest got punished, teams are taking it a lot more serious. Just listened to talk of the devils. It was a pretty grim listen. We are in a bad place financially. The Glazers have killed us.
2 players is absolutely more than enough to change things
Then don't spend 40m on Zirkzee. Functional clubs aren't spending 100m plus on a strike duo that can barely start league games. Under the old regime there was the fallacy that a Zirkzee cost 40m so a starting caliber striker should cost 100m. That's that woodwardnomics.
We should also not be scared to replace big names who don't project to be of standard instead of growing attached and wasting time maximising them. Replacing the spine of the team would be more beneficial long term than spending another half billion swapping roleplayers and talking about not being able to win anything with a faulty core. The core keeps getting a pass for not being able to get basic things done. "Hey but at least they tried. Let's go jump on only the likes of Dalot for our attack not fashioning a single clear cut opportunity in an entire half"
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I mean, both haven’t been great but I’m more excited about Amorim’s ideas and system than EtH’s. Contrary to what some would have you believe, EtH did have a plan it was just a really really poorly implemented one.
I fully support Ruben. I do really want to see how the wingbacks will operate and what we look like with a striker that can actually score goals and contribute to the overall play. The next few transfers have to be absolute successes. Otherwise, this could be another project that goes badly.
Possibly - sure.
Our only - genuine - hope is that the people who hired him know what they're doing.
I'm getting seriously tired of saying this - but the people who offered him the contract are far more important for United's future than he is (unless he actually turns out to be some kind of grand genius who's both able and willing to do the entire job for them).
I won't pretend I'm not bothered about results so far...I'd hoped for better and expected better after some of those initial signs of promise.
But I can't comprehend the idea that we agree to just call it a day, Amorim walks away for a job (soon) some place else and we start looking for someone else. Whether that's an Iraola, a Silva or whoever might be on-trend.
The last 18 months has been seriously grim. All the more if, like me, your experience as match day regular was peak SAF. Now I think more about that, about the way you scanned fixtures, your anticipation, hopes, fears - not many of those in truth - and basic expectations, the harder it is to deal with this new reality. It's not that we aren't winning games, it's that we can't score, can't offer any semblance of control, leak goals when and how you can predict it's going to happen, and are getting turned-over. Again and again. By teams who, not so long ago, you would never imagine beating us in anything but a freakish game.
Sure, there's a risk involved in the Amorim project. It could get toxic and prolonged flailing around in the lower mid-table really feels like staring into the abyss, thinking 'how far are we going to fall?' (realistically, we aren't getting relegated), until you step-back, realise it's already a terrible situation and recognise he needs to get a chance to show what he can do with some key improvements to the squad.
It doesn't really matter who we could bring in as a replacement - let's say Iraola as he's on-trend (and doing brilliantly: he'll probably go to Spurs) - and what system we might shift to, because we have a deep-seated problem, made much worse by the ETH / Arnold / Murtough madness. There are simply too many players, horribly ill-equipped to compete against so many other teams, who just out-compete us as they are generally technically sound, faster, more physical, more able to step it up, adjust and maintain a pace and an intensity. Just stop and think about the number of failed signings we're still relying on, who are never going to do it.
We're not progressing very far without dealing with that problem and giving a coach - regardless of who it is - a better chance by addressing this. In a creative, ruthless, way. Make a start by getting rid of Casemiro, Rashford, Antony, Malacia, Shaw, Lindelof, Eriksen, Mount (maybe), Martinez (maybe) and Maguire (2026) - at the same time as being bold with key sales (I'm open to the idea that Garnacho both won't fit the system and isn't going to be the talent we hoped for) - and please get it right, or at least make it better, by bringing in wingbacks, another midfielder and an experienced striker with a proven record.
That doesn't fix everything but add it to the potential for some emerging younger players and it gives Amorim a chance to make a sustainable difference.
But I can't comprehend the idea that we agree to just call it a day, Amorim walks away for a job (soon) some place else and we start looking for someone else. Whether that's an Iraola, a Silva or whoever might be on-trend.
The last 18 months has been seriously grim. All the more if, like me, your experience as match day regular was peak SAF. Now I think more about that, about the way you scanned fixtures, your anticipation, hopes, fears - not many of those in truth - and basic expectations, the harder it is to deal with this new reality. It's not that we aren't winning games, it's that we can't score, can't offer any semblance of control, leak goals when and how you can predict it's going to happen, and are getting turned-over. Again and again. By teams who, not so long ago, you would never imagine beating us in anything but a freakish game.
Sure, there's a risk involved in the Amorim project. It could get toxic and prolonged flailing around in the lower mid-table really feels like staring into the abyss, thinking 'how far are we going to fall?' (realistically, we aren't getting relegated), until you step-back, realise it's already a terrible situation and recognise he needs to get a chance to show what he can do with some key improvements to the squad.
It doesn't really matter who we could bring in as a replacement - let's say Iraola as he's on-trend (and doing brilliantly: he'll probably go to Spurs) - and what system we might shift to, because we have a deep-seated problem, made much worse by the ETH / Arnold / Murtough madness. There are simply too many players, horribly ill-equipped to compete against so many other teams, who just out-compete us as they are generally technically sound, faster, more physical, more able to step it up, adjust and maintain a pace and an intensity. Just stop and think about the number of failed signings we're still relying on, who are never going to do it.
We're not progressing very far without dealing with that problem and giving a coach - regardless of who it is - a better chance by addressing this. In a creative, ruthless, way. Make a start by getting rid of Casemiro, Rashford, Antony, Malacia, Shaw, Lindelof, Eriksen, Mount (maybe), Martinez (maybe) and Maguire (2026) - at the same time as being bold with key sales (I'm open to the idea that Garnacho both won't fit the system and isn't going to be the talent we hoped for) - and please get it right, or at least make it better, by bringing in wingbacks, another midfielder and an experienced striker with a proven record.
That doesn't fix everything but add it to the potential for some emerging younger players and it gives Amorim a chance to make a sustainable difference.
If that's all you've taken from our games under Amorim, then you dont know football.
The internet gives a voice to all types I suppose. In previous eras we were much more confined to hearing opinions that more closely reflected our own, because you would choose who to surround yourself with. If, for example, this was 20 years ago and someone I knew was saying we should sack Amorim after 15 games, well....it's such a ridiculously hyperbolic, knee jerk reaction, that they probably wouldn't be the sort of person I'd be hanging around with; because to make such a suggestions, with any element of seriousness, one probably has to have some fairly seriously defective character traits or thinking pathways. These days, however, with the internet, you get these crazy opinions thrown in your face from all corners, and you start to wonder if people have always been this mental or if the internet has brought it out in them. Are people more emboldened by the anonymity these forums provide, to spout such nonsense? Would they feel too foolish to say this out loud to people who actually knew them, for fear of rightful ridicule? Or are they as clueless and tone-deaf in real life as they are online?
Just the idea that we should terminate Amorim's contract after a difficult beginning, when he has a herculean task on his hands, and the thought that such a move would lead to a better outcome in the medium or long term, is truly baffling. I think, the intelligent people I've discussed this with on this forum, all recognise that the club has gotten itself into such a state over the last decade, that at some point results almost have to be shelved in pursuit of a complete cultural, technical, and tactical reset at the club. Short term pain for long term gain. Again, with these same people, the agreement seems to be that these first six months under Amorim will be very difficult, because of the change in approach, the retooling of the squad, the bad habits that have to be drilled out of the players, the financial restrictions, the low confidence, the broken, toxic culture that needs resetting; and of course the highly competitive and ruthless nature of the modern Premier League. It's bandage ripping off time. We need to take that pain, instead of trying to paper over the cracks, to build a brighter, more sustainable future.
And even though I know people can be reactionary, it's almost quaint that I can still be unpleasantly surprised by the sheer level of impatience, lack of situational awareness, absence of critical and strategic thinking, and hysteria that creeps into so many posts in threads like these. I do thank those that continue to fight the good fight, by being realistic, practical, patient, and erudite in their understanding of not only football, but also leadership as a whole; but sometimes this place feels like going on a Trump forum to extoll the virtues of vaccination or renewable energy. You just know you are going to be bombarded with mouth frothing, untethered, delusional fantasies. The type where the author points the finger, but never provides any tangible solutions that stand up to any level of reasonable scrutiny.
Christ.
Just the idea that we should terminate Amorim's contract after a difficult beginning, when he has a herculean task on his hands, and the thought that such a move would lead to a better outcome in the medium or long term, is truly baffling. I think, the intelligent people I've discussed this with on this forum, all recognise that the club has gotten itself into such a state over the last decade, that at some point results almost have to be shelved in pursuit of a complete cultural, technical, and tactical reset at the club. Short term pain for long term gain. Again, with these same people, the agreement seems to be that these first six months under Amorim will be very difficult, because of the change in approach, the retooling of the squad, the bad habits that have to be drilled out of the players, the financial restrictions, the low confidence, the broken, toxic culture that needs resetting; and of course the highly competitive and ruthless nature of the modern Premier League. It's bandage ripping off time. We need to take that pain, instead of trying to paper over the cracks, to build a brighter, more sustainable future.
And even though I know people can be reactionary, it's almost quaint that I can still be unpleasantly surprised by the sheer level of impatience, lack of situational awareness, absence of critical and strategic thinking, and hysteria that creeps into so many posts in threads like these. I do thank those that continue to fight the good fight, by being realistic, practical, patient, and erudite in their understanding of not only football, but also leadership as a whole; but sometimes this place feels like going on a Trump forum to extoll the virtues of vaccination or renewable energy. You just know you are going to be bombarded with mouth frothing, untethered, delusional fantasies. The type where the author points the finger, but never provides any tangible solutions that stand up to any level of reasonable scrutiny.
Christ.
Babe, @simonhch has dropped a long post!
Thank you for that.
Yeah it wrecked Forest
If Amorim moves away from his style or system, that’s when the writing will be on the wall. We have to purposefully fail (learning from these setbacks) before we succeed. The players haven’t learnt anything thus far.
It’s the worst situation Ruben has been put in. Regardless whether he is good or not, the shit show thrown to him and the team in this winter transfer window outside pitch is out of control. What have ineos been doing?!
He can turn it around. At least this is a man with intelligence, emotion and connection with the players. The opposite of EtH.
His yelling at United players is not something we should be concerned about. I have seen dressing room videos of him in Sporting's locker room really giving it to them in the past.
His yelling at United players is not something we should be concerned about. I have seen dressing room videos of him in Sporting's locker room really giving it to them in the past.
I really like Amorin. He’s acknowledged the shite in the squad and doing his best to shift them on. Antony out, Casemiro not playing and Rashford given the treatment he deserves. He’s got a poor squad and we are pretty much where we should be in the table whilst adapting to a new system. We have to stick with him but at the same time, the long term plan has to be 343 otherwise we are back to square one should Amorin leave or get sacked. Big call from management but they must stick with it or we are kicking the can further down the road.
This has soothed my brain.
We have to give him time. First step is to build a “Chelsea level” squad within two years and after that we need be patient for another couple of years in order to be competitive for gold in PL.
All managerial changes delays our success. I think we would’ve been at a better place if example Rangnick was still in charge. ETH was an exception. Worst manager in United history. He had to leave. He left a messy squad.
All managerial changes delays our success. I think we would’ve been at a better place if example Rangnick was still in charge. ETH was an exception. Worst manager in United history. He had to leave. He left a messy squad.
Please don't post talk sport videos the worst media going. Most of the stuff they say is deliberately inflammatory for clicks.
Jamie Jackson arguably the most gutter tier journalist there is out there at the moment as well. No idea how anybody takes him seriously
Wasn’t my point. Just meant since both got a fine . Teams haven’t been spending as freely as previous seasons. Forest have spent well. We are terrible with transfers
Whatever you think of him, Jamie's still a core part of the Manchester press pack. The fact he feels bold enough to come out and say Amorim could be gone by summer is significant, even if we don't entirely believe it.
These journalists trade in access. Their lifeblood is the club. If they get cut out they're worth little to nothing to their employers. I seriously doubt Jamie would be saying this stuff if he thought there would be massive blowback from within Man Utd for doing so. He does not want to be blacklisted. From that I think its an idea going around that, at the very least, his sources aren't warning him about giving air to.
Saying Amorim could be sacked before the summer means nothing though. It’s stating the bleeding obvious. If we don’t win another game all season and he has a massive fall out with Jim then he will 100% be sacked. I can state this without any inside knowledge at all. We all knew it was possible he might not last the season long before Jamie Jackson got involved.