Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I'm at the point where I think it was a mistake to hire Amorim. He is so wedded to a particular system, and our current squad is so unsuited to it, that we're going to have to take several steps back before we begin to move forward. Everyone wants to see the dead wood moved on from the squad, but Amorim is thinking of selling the few bright sparks, like Garnacho. I've no doubt Amorim is a good manager, but it will take such massive surgery to the squad to make his system work that we should have chosen someone else. It's an indictment of Wilcox and the directors that they didn't foresee this.

A team of Onana; Mazraoui, Yoro, De Ligt, Dalot; Ugarte, Mainoo; Mount, Bruno, Garnacho; Hojlund is good enough for top 4, in my opinion, with the right manager. We should have found that manager and built on the squad we have instead of appointing an ideologue who can only do things one way and needs to rip everything up. The frustration is we're not even at square one yet. We need to take several steps back towards square one before starting to move forward again.

By the time we have a squad that can play Amorim's system, what's to say that system will still work? Football is evolving all the time. I can't think of a truly great manager who was inflexible about systems. We've appointed an interesting manager who's a bad fit for the club.

I can only see two likely scenarios: he takes three years or so to build the squad he wants, but eventually delivers success; or he spends a couple of years chopping and changing the squad, but never has a team he's really happy with, and he leaves without having had any success, and leaves us with a worse squad than he inherited. The second scenario is more likely, it seems to me.
 
DJ_21 said:
Let him build his own team and we’ll see something special. He’s clearly a talented coach. He deserves better than this. He didn’t even want to join until the end of the season but didn’t want to miss an opportunity of a lifetime. Back him please!
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We have to.
It'll take 2 or 3 years, but strap in and hold on tight and lets hope he can get us out of this 10 year death slump.
 
witchtrials said:
Maybe I misunderstood your point about him leaving if he lost his place. What point were you making?
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A poster claimed that it is unfair to have expectations from our young players like Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Yoro and I replied saying, if you want to play for Manchester United week in week out, regardless of age, you have to deal with the pressure and expectations.

My point then was if they dont want those pressures, United isnt the right club for them.
 
romufc said:
A poster claimed that it is unfair to have expectations from our young players like Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, Yoro and I replied saying, if you want to play for Manchester United week in week out, regardless of age, you have to deal with the pressure and expectations.

My point then was if they dont want those pressures, United isnt the right club for them.
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Wait, you weren't saying if those players (including Mainoo) don't want they pressure they should leave - you were saying that if there was pressure on them then they would leave. That's not the same thing.

romufc said:
I guarantee you, if you benched Hojlund, Garnacho, Mainoo, Zirkzee, they will all want to leave.
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witchtrials said:
Wait, you weren't saying if those players (including Mainoo) don't want they pressure they should leave - you were saying that if there was pressure on them then they would leave. That's not the same thing.
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Firstly, your sentence makes no sense.

Secondly, the other poster said it is unfair to put responsibility and pressure on young players when experienced players are not doing well. So if you said oh dont give youngsters pressure and leave them on the bench, because we want to protect them from pressure, they will want to leave.

Why? because talented players all want to play.
 
DJ_21 said:
He did it with sporting after what 19 years? No reason he can’t do it here
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Were Sporting 3rd when he took over? I bet they were not 12th. The job to catch the top 3 teams in the PL is monumental. He did really well in Portugal but look quite clueless so far in the PL. ETH was also very successful in a minor league.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Were Sporting 3rd when he took over? I bet they were not 12th. The job to catch the top 3 teams in the PL is monumental. He did really well in Portugal but look quite clueless so far in the PL. ETH was also very successful in a minor league.
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Ye but they still didn’t win the league for 19 years and that’s in a league where it’s usually between 3 teams. We’re 12th because of the mess we’ve been in since fergie left. We’ve had clueless people making clueless decisions. We don’t expect Amorim to win the league anytime soon but we can expect that he’ll at least make us challengers and a consistent top 4 team within the next few years. All being well.
 
romufc said:
Firstly, your sentence makes no sense.

Secondly, the other poster said it is unfair to put responsibility and pressure on young players when experienced players are not doing well. So if you said oh dont give youngsters pressure and leave them on the bench, because we want to protect them from pressure, they will want to leave.

Why? because talented players all want to play.
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I will ignore your pretty feeble attempt at point scoring from the fact there is a stray letter in my sentence.

To your "second" point, it's fairly obvious that it's better for young players to have some pressure to perform but not be under extreme scrutiny and criticism, and therefore be able to protect them somewhat. No one thinks that the alternative to too much pressure is no pressure at all and a completely carefree existence. So what is your point?
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Were Sporting 3rd when he took over? I bet they were not 12th. The job to catch the top 3 teams in the PL is monumental. He did really well in Portugal but look quite clueless so far in the PL. ETH was also very successful in a minor league.
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The number of fans who are turning on the manager is a joke. How obvious is it that the players are not good enough?

There are clear differences between Ten Hag and Amorim.

Ten Hag came in and said he cant play his style, when he was hired for that reason.

Amorim has said, its his way only, shows how much belief he has.
 
witchtrials said:
I will ignore your pretty feeble attempt at point scoring from the fact there is a stray letter in my sentence.

To your "second" point, it's fairly obvious that it's better for young players to have some pressure to perform but not be under extreme scrutiny and criticism, and therefore be able to protect them somewhat. No one thinks that the alternative to too much pressure is no pressure at all and a completely carefree existence. So what is your point?
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I will say it one more time.

My point is, regardless of age, playing for Manchester United comes with extreme pressure, there is no circumstance where playing for United and there is 0 pressure.

So the point is, if fans think players should not be put under pressure because of age, it doesn't work, if you expect to play in the first 11, you have to deal with the pressure that comes with it. Simple as..
 
DJ_21 said:
Ye but they still didn’t win the league for 19 years and that’s in a league where it’s usually between 3 teams. We’re 12th because of the mess we’ve been in since fergie left. We’ve had clueless people making clueless decisions. We don’t expect Amorim to win the league anytime soon but we can expect that he’ll at least make us challengers and a consistent top 4 team within the next few years. All being well.
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Let's just hope the clueless people got this decision right. I wonder what Ashworth is thinking. It wouldn't surprise the least if also this decision was clueless, eg changing system mid-season and no wingbacks available and so on. But Amorim didn't make this mess of a squad.
 
romufc said:
The number of fans who are turning on the manager is a joke. How obvious is it that the players are not good enough?

There are clear differences between Ten Hag and Amorim.

Ten Hag came in and said he cant play his style, when he was hired for that reason.

Amorim has said, its his way only, shows how much belief he has.
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I have been arguing for ages that the players are not good enough. I am not turning on Amorim, I just point out that he is unproven outside of weak league Portugal and that it might not be enough to successful in the PL.
 
romufc said:
I will say it one more time.

My point is, regardless of age, playing for Manchester United comes with extreme pressure, there is no circumstance where playing for United and there is 0 pressure.

So the point is, if fans think players should not be put under pressure because of age, it doesn't work, if you expect to play in the first 11, you have to deal with the pressure that comes with it. Simple as..
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Once again you're talking about zero pressure. But the alternative to extreme pressure is not zero pressure.

When, say, Wes Brown was introduced to the United side of course he had the pressure of being watched by millions on TV and tens of thousands in the ground.

But when he made mistakes on the pitch he had world class players around to try to cover them. He could also be taken out of the side and be brought back in for games that were less likely to be detrimental to his development.

Most people recognise there is an art to developing young players into first team regulars, and it doesn't just involve exposing youngsters to as much pressure as possible as soon as possible.
 
RedMJ123 said:
Jim et al have made some terrible financial decisions from the off but they need to get behind Ruben. Give him what he needs.
If it means clearing out the garbage, underperforming children then so be it. Start from scratch and get back to United are about - promoting through the ranks. Invest the cash into a new scouting team as they clearly mediocre.
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As usual the solution is simple, clear out the garbage, how exactly are you supposed to do that? It's not like you can call the council and get them to take them away

If no one wants to buy them or pay the wages that we stupidly gave them what are the top brass supposed to do?

The reality is that most of the players the fans want out are going nowhere until either their contracts expire or the club accepts a low-ball offer which in some cases has PSR implications, players that we could get good fees for are the ones that a lot of fans don't want to leave, some of them may well have to so we can improve the whole
 
Building his team doesn't literally mean buying 11 players, not even half. It means using the season to find who makes the cut next season and filling in the gaps. This is the auditioning period. Even going by the more literal reading of a 'clear out', smaller teams replace high player turnover all the time without going bankrupt. If you aren't buying Antonys and Hojlunds and Casemiros for 250m it's actually more possible than we make it look. I don't know if it's the names people are attached to but it was already the most unlikable Man Utd team we've had in a while. Not a single tear shed for any of the casualties.
 
Greck said:
Building his team doesn't literally mean buying 11 players, not even half. It means using the season to find who makes the cut next season and filling in the gaps. This is the auditioning period. Even going by the more literal reading of a 'clear out', smaller teams replace high player turnover all the time without going bankrupt. If you aren't buying Antonys and Hojlunds and Casemiros for 250m it's actually more possible than we make it look. I don't know if it's the names people are attached to but it was already the most unlikable Man Utd team we've had in a while. Not a single tear shed for any of the casualties.
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It does most definitely mean buying more than half of his team. And in two seasons to have a completely transformed team.
 
Club has let him down at the first hurdle.

Getting rid of important squad players, Antony, Rashford and Garnacho (who is a chance creator at a time we create minimal chances!).

If we do bring anyone it’s late in the window. The club should’ve been negotiating from the day we hired Amorim and signed 1 Jan.
 
Donaldo said:
It does most definitely mean buying more than half of his team. And in two seasons to have a completely transformed team.
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Not in one window anyway. Ours just look a bigger task because we're finally addressing the fool's gold we call our core.
 
Donaldo said:
It does most definitely mean buying more than half of his team. And in two seasons to have a completely transformed team.
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No it doesn't, we obvioulsy have some players that are not good enough but we also have player playing in positions not best suited to them

2 decent WB's and a striker could transform this team to at least a semi-decent level

We have some potentially good youngsters to come thru that may replace some of departures that will naturally occur over the next couple of years

Evans, Eriksen and Lindelof will be gone in the summer, Maguire and Casemiro the following summer when their contracts are done
 
Football narratives change so fast. We went from winning against City to losing against Newcastle, Wolves and Bournemouth to basically outplaying Pool / Arsenal to almost losing against Saints and losing to Brighton. I think we shifted about 3 narratives in that time. What I know is:

1. We're not sacking him this year
2. We're not sacking him in the summer
3. This season's a write-off.
4. We might sack him mid next season if results don't change.

Given all of this, the only strong opinion I have right now is that we shouldn't sell all our wingers (Rashford, Garnacho, Antony) and then hire a coach who wants to play 4 ATB next. If we commit to building a squad for a 5 ATB system, then we need to think it through beyond Ruben and plan for the next coach.
 
Teja said:
Football narratives change so fast. We went from winning against City to losing against Newcastle, Wolves and Bournemouth to basically outplaying Pool / Arsenal to almost losing against Saints and losing to Brighton. I think we shifted about 3 narratives in that time. What I know is:

1. We're not sacking him this year
2. We're not sacking him in the summer
3. This season's a write-off.
4. We might sack him mid next season if results don't change.

Given all of this, the only strong opinion I have right now is that we shouldn't sell all our wingers (Rashford, Garnacho, Antony) and then hire a coach who wants to play 4 ATB next. If we commit to building a squad for a 5 ATB system, then we need to think it through beyond Ruben and plan for the next coach.
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Last paragraph is a concern of mine and our think tank over the last 10 years would no doubt have done exactly that so we’re left with more players ill suited to what any future manager wants. Hopefully INEOS think differently though I’m not convinced on the evidence so far.

And hopefully it doesn’t come to that and Amorim does make it here.
 
Teja said:
Football narratives change so fast. We went from winning against City to losing against Newcastle, Wolves and Bournemouth to basically outplaying Pool / Arsenal to almost losing against Saints and losing to Brighton. I think we shifted about 3 narratives in that time. What I know is:

1. We're not sacking him this year
2. We're not sacking him in the summer
3. This season's a write-off.
4. We might sack him mid next season if results don't change.

Given all of this, the only strong opinion I have right now is that we shouldn't sell all our wingers (Rashford, Garnacho, Antony) and then hire a coach who wants to play 4 ATB next. If we commit to building a squad for a 5 ATB system, then we need to think it through beyond Ruben and plan for the next coach.
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Rashford, Garnacho, Antony aren't failing because of the formation, they are failing because they have no versatility in central areas. Amad too is a natural wide player and is thriving in a system that requires attackers to have a minimum level of competence in every attacking aspect. I do feel there might be something to Garnacho but they can go with or without Amorim. They others would actually make for great rotation players if they weren't paid like Balon d'ors.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Liverpool wanted Amorim but apparently decided against because of his insistence of playing 3-4-2-1, because they didn’t have the players for it. Going for Slot who has similar continuity to Klopp looks an inspired choice.

We’ve got to stop picking managers with wildly different philosophies. Van Gaal to Mourinho was a classic example. Other teams have an identity and pick a manager along those lines. It’s another mess.
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That I definitely agree. No clear idea or plan how we'd play in long term.
 
My Problem is not only with Amorim but with SJR as well.
How can you sign a new manager and not back him with at least a couple of signings in this transfer window, even the Glazers were not this bad and there are always ways round this PSR rhetoric.
I guarantee you that If Garnacho and Rashford are sold they would not be replaced by tight SJR this window so we are going to limp on with a weakened squad till the end of the season.
Also if we are in a relegation battle, Amorim will be sacked and the new manager may need another rebuild.
Football is about winning and Amorim will not get 2 years to rebuild whilst losing.
He needs to win to buy time for a rebuild and he also needs to be adaptable with formations.

I also don’t understand that he only understands the 3-4-3 formations, come-on all top managers are adaptable and have supreme football knowledge and football ideas.
He should be able to read a game and adjust as required during a game.
I have not seen any in game management or in game tactics that you go wow this is a top coach.
He really needs to step up quickly or we all know how this ends.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Let's just hope the clueless people got this decision right. I wonder what Ashworth is thinking. It wouldn't surprise the least if also this decision was clueless, eg changing system mid-season and no wingbacks available and so on. But Amorim didn't make this mess of a squad.
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That’s not Amorims problem though. He wanted to join at the end of the season where he could implement his style in pre season and bring in some players. But they didn’t give him that option so now they have to make life easier for him and back him, even if it’s just 1 signing this month.
 
Andy_Cole said:
Club has let him down at the first hurdle.

Getting rid of important squad players, Antony, Rashford and Garnacho (who is a chance creator at a time we create minimal chances!).

If we do bring anyone it’s late in the window. The club should’ve been negotiating from the day we hired Amorim and signed 1 Jan.
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Ruben is getting the full effect of how poorly we are run. Even with the new bosses, we're a joke.
 
DJ_21 said:
That’s not Amorims problem though. He wanted to join at the end of the season where he could implement his style in pre season and bring in some players. But they didn’t give him that option so now they have to make life easier for him and back him, even if it’s just 1 signing this month.
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And still he decided to join mid season. He knew what he was getting into or he was very naive
 
hellhunter said:
And still he decided to join mid season. He knew what he was getting into or he was very naive
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I think it was fair for him to expect some kind of bounce but the players have been atrocious except for a few like Amad and Ugarte.

They didn't play well under Ten Hag or Amorim. I think we know the reality is the players are the issue. We need to upgrade with at least 4-5 first team players to give him a chance of success.
 
Red Rash said:
I think it was fair for him to expect some kind of bounce but the players have been atrocious except for a few like Amad and Ugarte.

They didn't play well under Ten Hag or Amorim. I think we know the reality is the players are the issue. We need to upgrade with at least 4-5 first team players to give him a chance of success.
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That's the funny part in all this. They were playing their natural positions all season and still got the old manager sacked. Their real struggles have nothing to with position. Asking to get the most out of them is almost a slap in the face to a new manager
 
He needs time, that is obvious. And we need to reshape the squad with sensible transfers, players who fit the system, and are technically proficient, while also being young enough to have serious improvement potential, yet already being at a high level for an instant impact. Not an easy task one might say, but this is where United's ethos of making stars, instead of buying them, should come to the fore. We've spent far too long buying stars who are on the wane, or players who are very raw, with little in the middle. Which makes for an unbalanced squad.

We clearly need another CB, two central midfielders, at least one wing-back, a number 10, and a center-forward. To do that we are going to have to ship a fair few players out, and prioritise where we address positions first. And in that regard, it seems essential that we address the weakest, most critical areas to our entire group functionality first. That is, central midfield.....and wingback. Wingbacks are so critical in our system to give us attacking threat, and an outlet from the back. It can't be overstated.

Midfield:

We have two starting quality CMs. Mainoo and Ugarte. Clearly they can't play all the games. Mainoo is 19, he excels at certain areas of the game (tight spaces, dribbling, one touch football, anticipation, recycling possession) and struggles with others (covering ground, defensive reading - although he has enormous potential there - stamina, and progressive passing). He needs time to develop. He needs to be rotated, and he probably needs to be third choice at CM for now. He shouldn't be an automatic first choice (which our options dictate he is). Ugarte is top quality, but not at everything, and of course needs a good partner to make an effective engine room. Casemiro and Eriksen are both past it for our purposes, while Collyer is a solid squad option at 5th choice, not as third choice. He's not there yet. I don't know what his ceiling is, but he's an interesting player for sure.

So what are our options? These are my favourites for various reasons, and I think all doable under the right circumstances - those being that we free up some PSR wiggle room by moving on Antony, Casemiro, Eriksen, Rashford, Malacia, and potentially Garnacho too.

1. Pablo Barrios (At. Madrid). This kid (yes he's only 21) is an absolute monster. He'll cost 50m+ but he'll be money well spent. If you do both the eye test and the stat/data test, you can see how superb he really is. Excelling in both the defensive and progressive elements of the game. He would be an addition that could be at the heart of our midfield for the best part of a decade, and is already good enough to deliver now. He'd be my top target.

2. Morten Hjulmand (Sporting CP). Another great all round midfielder, who is obviously very familiar with Amorim. He's Amorim's Roy Keane in many ways. He's developed as a player, playing Amorim's way, and he doesn't shrink under pressure or the spotlight. At 25 he is ready to take the next step.

3. Ederson (Atalanta). A Player I adore. Has a phenomenal workrate, and is defensively very intelligent. Yet despite that, he's also superb at carrying the ball forwards. He's a good passer and tackler, and did I mention his work rate? He may lack some creativity in the final third, but he's actually very skillful and occasionally unpredictable (in a good way), with his only real weakness for me being that he can occasionally be a bit rash in his tackles and attempts to intercept. An Ugarte/Ederson duo would be very aggressive and run most opponents off the pitch, but I could also see them both occasionally getting passed around and caught with space behind. So far all the options have a high workrate, which is an important theme for me. That said.....

4. Douglas Luiz. Out of favour at Juve but Premier League proven and a very solid, high quality, deep lying midfield playmaker, who excels in the defensive phase of the game. Doesn't quite have the legs of the other three, but he makes up for that in his positioning and reading of the game. He's also no slouch, and knows how to put in a hard tackle. He's good with the ball, and I think could be gotten for a very good price. He's still only 26, and would improve us immediately.

5. Matheus Nunes. Yes I took this one straight from The Athletic. But it makes a lot of sense. If we can navigate around the whole "he plays for City" thing (they've sold to rivals recently), he could be a sleeper hit for us. He was phenomenal for Sporting under Amorim, in a midfield two, alongside.....you guessed it......Manuel Ugarte. He was so good in that role in fact, Pep called him maybe the best midfielder in the world. Things have gone sour for him at City because they don't know where and how to play him, but as midfield two, he has so many qualities, not least ball carrying. And before anyone says we'd be too open, that defies actual demonstrated history where his defensive stats at Sporting, alongside Ugarte in the 4-3-2-1 were excellent. The main issue is bringing in a player who is obviously low on confidence, to a club that is bereft of belief. But there is an opportunity there.

Personally, if I was leading recruitment, I'd be bringing two of those players in, and rotating Mainoo between the 8 and 10 positions as he learns and hones his craft. My favourite two? Probably Barrios and Ederson. I like the profile we are going after in Dorgu for the flanks. Two footed, amazing engine, physical, attacking and defensive quality. He's still raw, probably too raw to be an instant difference maker, but he has everything to be a really top class wing back in Amorim's system.
 
DJ_21 said:
That’s not Amorims problem though. He wanted to join at the end of the season where he could implement his style in pre season and bring in some players. But they didn’t give him that option so now they have to make life easier for him and back him, even if it’s just 1 signing this month.
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True, and a wingback and or striker would be the least the club can do.
 
I am not sure if Amorim has the experience to adapt a play style to the players.
I am pretty sure he was not appointed to do that.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Let's just hope the clueless people got this decision right. I wonder what Ashworth is thinking. It wouldn't surprise the least if also this decision was clueless, eg changing system mid-season and no wingbacks available and so on. But Amorim didn't make this mess of a squad.
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Who gives a shit what Ashworth thinks. His list of potential coaches were not exactly inspiring and he was given the chance to argue for them and was unconvincing going by all the reports that came out.

I don't think anybody at the club expected this season to be a smooth ride once we committed to Amorim. Berrada and co are thinking long term and they know getting a coach in like Amorim who sticks to his guns and has a set style is the best way for us to move forward. It's up to them now to provide him with the players to turn things around. I reckon we'll sign a wing back and potentially a forward by the end of the window if Garnacho goes. I expect the majority of business will happen in the summer though.
 
I like his honesty and hopefully he’ll be given time. Not sure there’s any coaches out there that could turn this mish mash of underperforming players around. I doubt Klopp or Pep could do any better.
 
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