Depends on the manner of the defeat, I would hope.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
What was the environment before he took over?
What has he changed it to?
And why is it wrong?
Maybe. It could get ugly on sunday.
Our fragile little divas are going to start shacking in the tunnel aren't they. I don't expect a single player to turn up.
But hey, I hope at least Rasmus manages to land a clean suplex on Vvd and Bruno manages to not get sent off in the first half!
I think he's going to be sacked, too much heavy lifting constrained into such a short period of time.
The problem is even if he survives this season, he's going to have to massively improve the next campaign and effectively having signed a 2.5 year contract it means every new signing has to hit the ground running straight away and I'd anticipate that INEOS will want a European spot to cite progress alongside the Glazers given the commercial ramifications.
So essentially can you go from potentially finishing 13-15th to top four in under 12 months? just can't see it happening with the demands of the system and further acquired players making the necessary adaptions to the clubs environment and the leagues competitiveness for players who are signed from abroad.
It's also not necessarily a mark against Amorim's management, the club have essentially hired an advanced coach who has a complex philosophy with players who don't have the intelligibility and technical capacity to implement his ideas. INEOS have absolutely shot themselves in the foot with the timing and hindsight likely suggests that an interim would have been the correct decision. The fact they didn't go with an interim and a fulltime manager to salvage the season is already indication that Amorim's position is under scrutiny. He is mentioning things taking time but no one in the hierarchy from Berrada, Wilcox of Jim has reflected agreeing with his comments. The silence from the hierarchy speaks volumes about the acceptance of the current state of affairs.
But as said I do sympathise slightly with Ruben's predicament, perhaps alongside LVG it would be the only sacking in the last 10 years where the manager didn't necessarily deserve it given the circumstances.
The problem is even if he survives this season, he's going to have to massively improve the next campaign and effectively having signed a 2.5 year contract it means every new signing has to hit the ground running straight away and I'd anticipate that INEOS will want a European spot to cite progress alongside the Glazers given the commercial ramifications.
So essentially can you go from potentially finishing 13-15th to top four in under 12 months? just can't see it happening with the demands of the system and further acquired players making the necessary adaptions to the clubs environment and the leagues competitiveness for players who are signed from abroad.
It's also not necessarily a mark against Amorim's management, the club have essentially hired an advanced coach who has a complex philosophy with players who don't have the intelligibility and technical capacity to implement his ideas. INEOS have absolutely shot themselves in the foot with the timing and hindsight likely suggests that an interim would have been the correct decision. The fact they didn't go with an interim and a fulltime manager to salvage the season is already indication that Amorim's position is under scrutiny. He is mentioning things taking time but no one in the hierarchy from Berrada, Wilcox of Jim has reflected agreeing with his comments. The silence from the hierarchy speaks volumes about the acceptance of the current state of affairs.
But as said I do sympathise slightly with Ruben's predicament, perhaps alongside LVG it would be the only sacking in the last 10 years where the manager didn't necessarily deserve it given the circumstances.
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18 months? It's til the end of the 2027 season.
Definitely. Even when they were under Hodgson, supposedly their darkest period in decades, we only beat them 3-2 at home with the Berbatov hattrick. Some kind of a respectable defeat with a decent team performance would be acceptable.
Same for the FA cup game, although there I'm mostly worried about conceding a bunch from set pieces.
Thanks for correction
The man has had four training sessions to teach his system. Four.
Folks need to calm down with the "try something different" shtick.
Folks need to calm down with the "try something different" shtick.
Way to surrender the moral high ground so easily at the end there, buddy
Looks like that line is going to stick around for the next couple of years.
Any good manager understand what he is dealing with and accordingly change his ideas.
His stubbornness to use his system even though we dont have players for that is sucidal in my opinion and similar to Ange at Spurs.
He needs to analyse what we have and accordingly set the system and in a next window he can get the players which suits his system.
Tbh, on sunday i feel we will put much better performance as players would like to show that they care and i feel he will play Rashford as in this match.
So much contradiction in one post.
Players showing they care and Rashford to start off with.
So how then is it sensible to send the team out to play a new system against good teams, if they've barely trained it?
That's what I don't understand, the idea that we need lots of spare time to train and practice something is fair enough in theory. It doesn't make sense to just jump right into that and play it no matter what if we aren't near ready for it though. A tough, congested run in one of the hardest leagues in the world isn't the time or place for something new and so challenging that we're going to badly struggle.
It's not all on Amorim...he asked to come in at the end of the season apparently which would be sensible. The club decided to bring him in now, I doubt the plan behind that was to do whatever we like regardless of results and finish in a worse place than we actually have to.
I can't see why we are not in the mix atleast. I mean even this season, it's not like we were way off. A win against forest would've gotten us 5th/6th I think?
Key signings in areas that need massive improvements, removal of deadwood, get adequate backups and more training to gel with the system should see massive improvements.
Let me correct this for you:
"Managers should be very wary of Manchester United going forward."
The players are not performing, no of us know exactly why this is, we just speculate but the evidence is clear.
One man cannot change whatever the problem is in 2 months, he has come in at the worse possible time of the year.
So many United fans think the club should be doing better than we currently are.
We are exactly where we deserve to be based on the results and there are 11 players on the pitch that are directly responsible for this, as well as the coaching staff.
Chelsea went from 10th to winning the league in one year. Leicester went from 14th to winning the league in one year.
With successful transfers, no Europe, and Amorim succeeding with implementing his system, top four is at least a possibility in theory. Stranger things have happened.
Nah, I fully back Amorim sticking to what he knows best. Coach what you know. There's no danger of us going down anyway, so playing some horrible, ugly brand of football in the hope of pinching a win or two is not it. Going against his ideas is only going to delay the end goal.
I don't see this as a similar case to Postecoglou at Spurs at all. Obviously we have been far from perfect, but our main failing has been dealing with set pieces/crosses. Postecoglou's Spurs are just naive and are actually more akin to what we saw from ten Hag's United of last season. Every game we could see structural issues (massive open spaces in the middle of the pitch) that were constantly ignored week after week.
To be fair things can change extremely quickly. I know it's not looking great but it's been a difficult run of fixtures for a team trying to adjust to a new system that is already lacking in a lot of areas in the first place.
When the fixtures become kinder we might be able to move up the table and finish in a more respectable position to make it easier for him. I hope so anyway.
When the fixtures become kinder we might be able to move up the table and finish in a more respectable position to make it easier for him. I hope so anyway.
How many of these players are going to be needed for the end goal? The consensus on here is that we need almost an entirely new squad, so what's the harm in being a little pragmatic, prioritizing results for now until he gets in some more intelligent and talented players in the summer? Ideally we'd all have wanted him to start the season, but INEOS fecked it up. If he doesn't start picking up results after the Liverpool game I fear they're going to throw him under the bus.
That exactly how I am hoping it will unfold. Relatively easier schedule and players more familiar with the system should definitely help us move up the table. That is why I wouldn't mind us going out of the FA cup against Arsenal. It'll free up the fixture list and allow us to concentrate on the two competitions that matter this season now: the league and the Europa league. We have an excellent chance of winning Europa as from this season on teams from the CL are not going to drop in after the group stages.
We need to improve in the league too to build confidence. So far it has been a disaster of a league season. We lie in 14th place, haven't scored in 8 of the 19 games we have played so far, have scored 21 goals in total and have a -5 goal difference. Have won less than 30% of our games and lost around 50%. There is no way it remains equally bad or gets worse from here. The only way to go after the Liverpool game is up.
The main argument I see is that if we're planning to use 343 going forward then it's going to helpful to instill the culture now so our players can adjust to it over six months rather than being expected to adapt even more quickly in the summer.
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I think that he is prioritising results, in the only way he knows how. He said it very openly himself, he only has one idea. It either works or it doesn't. We are very weak in certain positions and even in areas where we are not, there is very little depth for our better fits. The Southampton game just has to be a win.
All in all, I find the lack of patience absolutely staggering.
Who would we get after Amorim anyway?
You’ll see the same terrible uninspiring names thrown around.
That‘s a positive take on it, but I don‘t think anything is gained by our losing streak. It makes getting performances out of the players that much harder. They are paralyzed. What are we gaining? We already knew the limitations of this squad.
We just fecked up, getting Amorim next summer would have been better. Ruud had the situation under control, we might have qualified for European football. That seems a long way off now.
I‘m hoping the game against Pool will bring up the best in the squad, as games like that can do.
I'm completely on board with keeping him on into next season unless we're relegated, but I don't find the lack of patience that surprising. We're on the brink of a potential 5-0 defeat to Liverpool after suffering successive home defeats. It's really bad right now on the football pitch, we should be able to admit that.
Right on, people talk about reverting to a system forgetting that Amorim was brought in because the previous system failed, Ten Hag was brought and given a carte blanche to launch a said system which he abandoned the moment he saw that the Casemiro - Bruno - Rashford axis gave him cheap goals, those players fell off a cliff, he tried to introduce a style and failed badly. Hell, we even had Rangnick and the same players downed tools like they are doing now.
The reason why results have taken a nosedive isn't because the system is new and complicated. We were pretty solid until Newcastle but we're losing silly goals due to individual errors and missing easy chances. Why people can't acknowledge this, I don't know.
The bottom line is we haven't been successful with any system, we are just in the middle of a congested and tough run with teams that can beat anyone on their day. People need to hold it together for the next two weeks because it's still going to get uglier than it is now.
We shouldn't have lost to *all* of Spurs, Bournemouth, Forrest, Wolves and Newcastle. But at the same time we haven't really had a week in between to train.
It's a completely different system and a lot of the players we have know they're out the door. As fans I think we should collectively ignore the league game results as long as there's no relegation threat and hope we can perform a Europa miracle. I'm more interested in which players make the step up in this tricky period, if Amorim turns to youth. And also what our summer plans will be, how much budget we will have etc.
Hey, why stop there? Maybe we are on the brink of a potential 12-0 defeat to Liverpool? I get your point though obviously
Oh absolutely, it is really bad no doubt. Amorim alluded to something the other day, which I must admit I had noticed too. He said that in having only had four training sessions, the players have forgotten certain elements of his idea. It's true. Even in games that we lost, (Arsenal, Forest, Spurs), despite being far from perfect, there was some sort of a style/foundation. Pretty much from the Bournemouth game onwards, that has been lost a bit. Hopefully, now that the schedule will soften slightly, more time on the training pitch will provide the players with a clearer picture moving forward.
Arteta has been shit for 3 years, look at the outrage of the fans at that time
So we could potentially get slightly better results if Amorim immediately dropped his system and switched back. The benefits being a slightly higher league position. We then launch into pre season with Amorims system.
Alternatively we stick with Amorims system and struggle through this period of awful results hoping that eventually it will start to click in the later stages of the Season. The benefits being that Amorim will know which players cannot work and which positions need strengthening. On top of that the players have a 6 months head start.
Personally I think short term pain, long term gain is the way forward. People have cried and pleaded for a club reset and now we're here some are getting cold feet. Ultimately we ride out this season, throw all our eggs in the Europa basket and go into the Summer knowing the exact task in hand. We brought Amorim in to change the clubs identity, let the man cook.
Alternatively we stick with Amorims system and struggle through this period of awful results hoping that eventually it will start to click in the later stages of the Season. The benefits being that Amorim will know which players cannot work and which positions need strengthening. On top of that the players have a 6 months head start.
Personally I think short term pain, long term gain is the way forward. People have cried and pleaded for a club reset and now we're here some are getting cold feet. Ultimately we ride out this season, throw all our eggs in the Europa basket and go into the Summer knowing the exact task in hand. We brought Amorim in to change the clubs identity, let the man cook.
Don't think Manchester United results can ever be ignored, every loss is magnified, analysed and plastered over every outlet because we're technically still the biggest club in the land. That's after losing one or two games. We're on a horrendous run now that can't be continued past the Liverpool game, I think. Even a few draws whist showing "something" on the pitch wouldn't hurt. Continuously losing games of football in the league isn't going to help anyone or anything.
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Agreed. He needs at least 2 transfer windows as well to get his own players in. Write off the Liverpool game and (or at least try and keep the scoreline semi respectable) and focus on the (on paper) easier run of games after. And yeah if we can move a few pieces around so he can get a wingback and a striker in January as well even better.
Fans want a reset and can't contemplate the levels of pain that come with it. Some think you just say reset and you suddenly start playing well. The coach is new, he doesn't know the players intimately and they don't know him, so it's inevitable that he will think that he can trust some like Malacia, Casemiro and Eriksen and they cost us points. He will learn and we will benefit from that.
I wish this was someone trolling but you're right. We have a mid-table squad.
I do still believe we'll win the league before you guys do.
Hey, why stop there? Maybe we are on the brink of a potential 12-0 defeat to Liverpool? I get your point though obviously
Oh absolutely, it is really bad no doubt. Amorim alluded to something the other day, which I must admit I had noticed too. He said that in having only had four training sessions, the players have forgotten certain elements of his idea. It's true. Even in games that we lost, (Arsenal, Forest, Spurs), despite being far from perfect, there was some sort of a style/foundation. Pretty much from the Bournemouth game onwards, that has been lost a bit. Hopefully, now that the schedule will soften slightly, more time on the training pitch will provide the players with a clearer picture moving forward.
That's interesting. Really, we have been relatively solid in games, in fairness even if the players have forgotten elements. It's the set pieces that are currently killing us the most, needs to be urgently sorted.
One thing that is bothering me about Amorim. He is (rightly) dead-set on sticking to the formation and tactics, but those tactics are heavily reliant on really strong and progressive wingbacks. Yet, he keeps playing Dalot and Maz who are not that. Instead of moving Amad up he really should have kept him as RWB and gambled on some one like Amass at LWB.
Amorim says it's his way or no way but he's not showing it. Hope these poor results show him that he has to stick to his guns but he has far less room to try things out now with how many games we've lost.
Amorim says it's his way or no way but he's not showing it. Hope these poor results show him that he has to stick to his guns but he has far less room to try things out now with how many games we've lost.
Your talking sense attitude won’t go down well on here.
It's been going on for too long. Remember Henrik Larsson?
Exactly right. Set pieces aside, Arsenal didn't really look like scoring against us. Despite not looking dangerous ourselves, we looked very composed in possesion and had a very decent share of the ball. Particularly in the first half. We completely controlled the game against Forest. 71% of the ball and bossed every single statistic. Individual errors and set pieces our failing again. Even against Spurs, there were elements of our play that were really very good and I don't even mean during our little fight back.
As much as the win at City has been played down by some people (Gary Neville, no less), it was no fluke. We looked really composed and possession was practically 50/50. We were comfortably the better side in the second half.
It was obviously at a very early stage, but something was being formed. We need to regain that.