Would you expect a fiat to drive at the same speed as a Ferrari? No is the answer. So you can’t expect miracles from these players that let down ETH also. ETHs tactics was being blamed… now Amorims is being questioned?
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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I honestly thought we were ready as a fan base to accept how bad we have become and commit to a rebuild, I guess I'm naive. It makes me sad that people are turning on him already. I said the same at the start of EtH's time here, how are we going to become a dominant modern side without trying to play that way? He needs to stick to the system while being given time and suitable players.
It started going bad when he moved amad further up the pitch, we lose an attacking threat on the right by doing this. It’s no surprise that when Amad was playing RWB we scored goals. Amorim just needs to make a few adjustments to see him through the season.
Everyone including Pep and Klopp has gone through this. Seems unavoidable. Have to just grit your teeth and hope Amorim learns his lessons quickly.
I agree. And so does the OT crowd as they was chanting his name of the pitch despite the loss to Newcastle. Unfortunately footballs a results business and the owners may press the panic button if we don’t see any improvements and we slip further down the table.
Yeah, I understand the frustration but I feel this will be an incredibly difficult season and a lot of pastings will occur. The rebuild will be done over time.
I said a few weeks ago that the league season was a write off.
It was never going to be possible to achieve a top five finish with a completely new system and a set of players not cut out for it.
This season will mainly be about working out who has a future here and who doesn't. I don't really expect to see any major change in results and performances until we've had a proper pre-season and signed some players that actually fit in.
It was never going to be possible to achieve a top five finish with a completely new system and a set of players not cut out for it.
This season will mainly be about working out who has a future here and who doesn't. I don't really expect to see any major change in results and performances until we've had a proper pre-season and signed some players that actually fit in.
What we are going through is off the scale. It‘s as bad as a Mourinho burn down.
You have to hope Amorim is learning and will change things to get us to put some points on the board. But yeah, we are shiit.
You have to hope Amorim is learning and will change things to get us to put some points on the board. But yeah, we are shiit.
I don’t get how Berrada isn’t getting much blame? Amorim wanted to finish the season of with sporting. Surely it would have been easier for everyone if we let RVN carry on until the end of the season as he was building momentum and had a good relationship with players. Then Amorim comes in as a champion having won the league with sporting and he can sign players and implement his system during pre season. We’ve basically written of the season before we’re halve way through…
Why wouldn’t you trust Amorim to perform as well as Ruud if he is such a brilliant manager, though?
Massive mistake, but that‘s hindsight. Going forward we need to be patient. Write off this season, work hard on recruitment and development of players.
Why is it a massive mistake? All the problems he's facing now wouldn't have fixed themselves by the time he arrived in the summer, in fact they'd probably be worse with an interim in charge. He might as well face them now, sort them all out, go into the summer with a clean slate and a plan and go again next season. Imagine coming in over the summer fresh from a holiday and having all this shit to deal with in the first few weeks of a new season?
We are losing almost every game, that‘s why not. We are gaining nothing by getting him early.
I think midfield is our problem yet again supported by terrible goalscoring form. When midfield falls apart, our shaky defense is prone to individual mistakes. Oh yes and set pieces and crosses, what's with that? Can someone find the worst set pieces defending team, I am pretty sure we're in top 3 in that stat.
I was also going to post this too but I was worried in case people didn't understand the humour and take it seriously (Like it usually is on this forum).The season is obviously a write off already (it was at any point between Ten Hag staying in June and leaving really for me)
But after Liverpool (pretty certain loss) he needs to take the pressure off by picking up reasonable points in:
Southampton H,
Brighton H,
Fulham A,
Palace H by February 2nd.
Assuming we lose to Arsenal in the cup he'll then have 2 weeks until Spurs (A) on 16th Feb.
I guess they would take a warm weather training break. By some miracle maybe with a couple of new signings.
You would hope things start looking better from that point.
But after Liverpool (pretty certain loss) he needs to take the pressure off by picking up reasonable points in:
Southampton H,
Brighton H,
Fulham A,
Palace H by February 2nd.
Assuming we lose to Arsenal in the cup he'll then have 2 weeks until Spurs (A) on 16th Feb.
I guess they would take a warm weather training break. By some miracle maybe with a couple of new signings.
You would hope things start looking better from that point.
As I've said to others, why? It is naive in my opinion. What's the advantage of playing a certain way if it's producing negative results and the majority of people accept that a rebuild is required..
I understand trying it out for the first few games to see what players are all about, but if professional footballers are not looking in any way decent playing a certain formation (including meeting the physical demands of that formation) after 10 or 11 games, why persist with it? You're basically just forcing players that aren't suited to, or good enough for the roles within that formation to play a system in a team they won't be involved in down the line.
If it's just a couple of players struggling, I get it. But when the majority of the team are not performing well, it's pretty pointless to continue with it in my opinion. If we won't be keeping them, there's no point in sending them out to play in a way that leads to them all underperforming and losing games. If we're to be keeping most of the players, again, why send them out to play a formation they are unsuited to or uncomfortable with?
I get that you can build automatic patterns into the play over time, but that's fine tuning. If the foundation still looks shite after 10 or 11 games then it's a massive problem.
How about the simple fact that he’s changed the whole system and approach to what the players was use to and doing so mid way through a season.
I said just this and agree with you totally, it looks to me that only Wilcox actually knows what he’s doing and the rest are making it up day by day, especially David Brailsford!
I really don‘t think my post was unreasonable enough to warrant such a strawman argument.
I don‘t expect miracles and I explicitly stated that our squad is a Fiat and not a Ferrari.
What I do expect is that the Fiat doesn‘t slow down to walking speed again after having been in second gear already.
I want Ruben to succeed. But it should be possible to have a conversation about the Fiats acceleration without being met with passive aggressive posts in bad faith like yours.
We were losing almost every game under Ten Hag, what’s changed? RVN won a couple but how long was that going to continue for with a substitute teacher in charge? And look who we played.
Happy New Year to you. Hope the videos were at least interesting.
Completely agree.
Maybe i am wrong, but it felt like there was very little in terms of structure in the Ten Hag system. We didnt see the repeatable patterns of play that we do from other teams. I think this is why there is so much pain. They are going from next to no structure to a coach that wants to instill one.
I think there are several reasons. First, as we've been seeing patterns of play are not "fine tuning" but rather much closer to the foundations. Players need to know where to stand, where and when to run, where their team mates will be, etc. without having to think about it or the system breaks down. That only comes with practice.
Second, I think more players will remain and be a part of our team going forward than most, at least for the next couple seasons. Obviously the older players and a few of the others will go but a good chunk of the players, especially the younger guys will stay in my opinion. We can't afford to completely change the squad.
Third, what kind of message does that send to the players? When do you decide to go back to the old system? I'd personally be more likely to buy into a vision if it's consistent from the start and not wishy washy when things get tough.
Sometimes I think I can agree with your first point, as I was convinced in the first few games that I could see a defined style and some decent play, we even created chances and scored a few goals. It was night and day from what we were seeing under Ten Hag, and what I would maybe at a push have called a foundation.
However, in the more recent run of games, that's fallen to shit. We've not been very good, he's been making some poor selections, we're conceding goals easily and not scoring. It's gone the opposite way of building on a platform and is looking a bit Ten Hag esque, plan A from the start with no plan B if it goes tits up. A few of the teams we've played during this horrible run are having decent seasons, but they aren't outstanding teams, and Spurs and Wolves aren't great at all.
My question to you would be, how long is it acceptable to just run with the same formation but constantly changing the team sheet whilst getting poor results?
How long might we expect to keep playing a formation before we actually start seeing some positive results from it?
I realise you might have not have an idea of numbers on this and just believe in the principle, but those questions matter to me because I'm concerned we just plough on blindy but actually don't end up any better off for it and waste even more time in the long run.
I'm not an advocate of going back to any old style just to make some players more comfortable. I do believe in playing to the strengths of your best players though, and adapting to weaknesses in the opposition set ups. I don't think it's clever to play a system just because you like it. If you're losing games and need more than a couple of new players to make a system work (and by all accounts we're unlikely to be able to buy the players we need any time soon), some level of sensible adaptation is required.
Out team isnot a true relegation candidate at the moment but we are in relegation form. if we slide into relegaion zone like the bottom three i wont be suprised if INEOS pulls the trigger because relegation danger is zero tolerance in my view.Abramovich used to fire a lot of coaches but they still won trophies.
ETH played Counterattacking in his first season? Don't think so, United had 5th most possession after City, Liverpool, Brighton and Arsenal.
The problem was ETH went against your teams strengths at the beginning of last season. Mount, Bruno and Casemiro midfield was always suffering. Also, injuries never helped build cohesion.
I’m not convinced. It’s pretty much guaranteed that they had detailed discussions on his tactical plan, and continue to do so. I’m sure this eventuality has been discussed considering he said early on that it was going to be rough for a while. So you have to assume that they have discussed all this and are happy for him to carry on. Given their reluctance to sack Ten Hag, I expect that this time the buck will stop 100% with the players. Ratcliffe has already said they’re all for sale, so I think that gives an indication as to their thinking on the players.
I’d be very surprised if he doesn’t get at least 1 summer window.
I know Sporting fans said that Amorim can be stubborn by playing players that are not in form, but bro, Dalot will be the end of you.
That can not persist, I'm sorry. No goals, no assist. He won't learn overnight how to cross with his weaker foot, nor learn how to drible all of a sudden. The diagonal switch of play should be one of the most powerful weapons in this system, however, having Dalot there is like shooting the ball into a dead-end alley.
That can not persist, I'm sorry. No goals, no assist. He won't learn overnight how to cross with his weaker foot, nor learn how to drible all of a sudden. The diagonal switch of play should be one of the most powerful weapons in this system, however, having Dalot there is like shooting the ball into a dead-end alley.
Tbh both of them have made mistakes. ETH was a poor man manager and recruiter of players. Amorim so far, seems too stubborn.
Three at the back is an awful system if you don’t have the right CBs and wingbacks.
You need defenders comfortable passing and that can bring the ball into midfield. You also need wingbacks that can deliver a final ball and score. If you don’t have this your team will just be very defensive and pass aimlessly at the back.
The 3 or 5 at the back systems that have worked are below, just compare the quality in attacking qualities compared to what we have.
Moses Azpilicueta Luiz Cahill Alonso
Walker Alderweireld Dier Vertongen Rose
James Christensen T.Silva Rudiger Chilwell
Forget that they are also way better defensively but the ability on the ball of these 5’s is very high and allows them to progress the ball well but also deliver quality in attacking areas. If we had any of these back five’s, we’d look so much better.
This is especially important because we know our attack is ridiculously poor so playing the 5 we have makes even less sense for a goal shy team if they are unable to move the ball well enough from the back or deliver accurate passes in the final third.
I understand where he’s coming from about suffering now to get better but also not thinking the back four system will be much of an improvement but playing Dalot at LWB is almost sabotage at this stage.
I’m still in support of him but after the Arsenal game, we need to see serious improvement. He will be able to conduct the training sessions how he wants and we’ll likely be in only two competitions. If things continue to go poorly he has to change the system, especially if he doesn’t get any January signings.
You need defenders comfortable passing and that can bring the ball into midfield. You also need wingbacks that can deliver a final ball and score. If you don’t have this your team will just be very defensive and pass aimlessly at the back.
The 3 or 5 at the back systems that have worked are below, just compare the quality in attacking qualities compared to what we have.
Moses Azpilicueta Luiz Cahill Alonso
Walker Alderweireld Dier Vertongen Rose
James Christensen T.Silva Rudiger Chilwell
Forget that they are also way better defensively but the ability on the ball of these 5’s is very high and allows them to progress the ball well but also deliver quality in attacking areas. If we had any of these back five’s, we’d look so much better.
This is especially important because we know our attack is ridiculously poor so playing the 5 we have makes even less sense for a goal shy team if they are unable to move the ball well enough from the back or deliver accurate passes in the final third.
I understand where he’s coming from about suffering now to get better but also not thinking the back four system will be much of an improvement but playing Dalot at LWB is almost sabotage at this stage.
I’m still in support of him but after the Arsenal game, we need to see serious improvement. He will be able to conduct the training sessions how he wants and we’ll likely be in only two competitions. If things continue to go poorly he has to change the system, especially if he doesn’t get any January signings.
I'll try to go point by point here. How else do you establish a foundation as you put it without practicing it in training and games? As you say, there was an immediate positive impact on our play when Amorim came in but I'll admit the last two games have been a bit of a backslide in terms of scoring goals and obviously the results.
I disagree that it's fallen to shit though. Against Newcastle it was bad, no doubt, but there are some reasons why that was the case that aren't related to Amorim or his system. As for the Wolves game, I know I'm in the minority but I don't think we deserved to lose and I thought we played alright until the red card. Those aren't necessarily excuses though, we should be playing better, I just don't think those results mean it's gone to shit. It's performances that I'm more concerned with I guess.
I'll assume "positive results' means winning games consistently and placing in the top 4 or 5 spots. I'd say that in the position the club is in currently, it's okay to spend the rest of this season and the entirety of next season learning the system and shaping the squad, with performances continuing to improve over time. Then the results would have to come. Of course if relegation is genuinely on the table things change.
I do understand your concerns, I don't want the club to just have blind faith in whoever the manager happens to be either. I guess I just have some trust that there is a unified vision for how the team will progress. I'm also a believer in playing our way and controlling games rather than being reactionary to the opposition as a style which is maybe at the core of our disagreement.
Needs a good performance vs Liverpool. Sadly I think a loss is inevitable but if we play well and avoid our usual brainless mistakes then that will be a positive.
I really want this guy to be the one!
That's ridiculous. He's seeing what players can play his way (Not many by the looks of it) This means that the club can be working on finding players that will fit and working on deals to get the ones that can't out if the club. There will be no doubt who can and can't play this way come the end of May.
If we had waited until the summer, Amorim would have needed weeks to find this information out and then you'd be working off a small window to get all comings and goings sorted.
On the bolded bits, you have to ask yourself though, how were you able to see a defined style and a decent play in the early days
and then in recent games it has fallen to shit?
How did this team smash Everton 4 nil, then proceed to lose at home to Forest, beat city away, and then lose the next 3 league games on the trot, 2 of them at home, how did all of that come to be? What if they beat Liverpool away in the league and then proceed to lose at home to Southampton and Brighton?
What does that tell you?
For me the answer is obvious, it's the players, they can decide to turn up one day and then just coast along the next game, if a team works very hard against them they don't match them and tend to be out fought and out worked, if they are met with an adversity they crumble easily unless someone does something brilliant, they make unforced errors all the time, they lose focus easily, there is enough quality in this squad but they are cnuts because they just accepted being shit and they aren't even trying to change that, they get paid handsomely and they have no pride and are happy to be talked about as the joke team in the league.
Thats because alot of us believe that rebuild can be slow but cannot be so bad that it gives us results thats not seen since 1962. Im sure he can rebuild judiciously. Im not asking his head to roll, but you can't tell me he is blameless.
The stubbornness is baffling isn't it. And now he's done away with the one thing that was working in Amad at RWB. We've not scored since. Has he seen that the Sporting job is available again and is trying to get out of here?
People keep saying that we haven't scored since Amad was moved from RWB, but we did against city where Amad played as a 10 and was man of the match, scoring one and creating a penalty, and everyone was saying that's his best position going forward.
The problem is a lot more basic and fundamental than formations or who should play where, no matter the formation or the tactics, this team, on paper, should not consistently lose winnable games, you might lose once in a while to a team you are supposed to beat, in our case, of the 9 losses in the league, we were not supposed to lose at least 5 of them, Brighton, Forest, Spurs, Newcastle at home, Westham & Wolves away (not lose does not equal must win), I would get it if the team dropped silly points in draws and an occasional loss of winnable game, but consistently losing games that are winnable on paper is a problem in the basics, now, if you predicted that this team will lose at home 4 nil against Southampton, no one will dare you are exaggerating, because we simply can't trust these players now, I promise you, if Amorim changes the formation back to 4231, plays Rashford at LW, Hojlund upfront, Bruno at the 10, any 2 of Ugarte, Cas, Eriksen & Mainoo, Martinez & MdL in CB, Dalot & Maz as FBs, they will still perform badly and you will then blame Amorim for not sticking and persisting with his style.
For me, what I want from Amorim is either he finds a way to get these cnuts performing better somehow, or just say it publicly they are all crap and need to be replaced, these players need to be put on blast as they are just not doing enough to try and play at the minimum level expected of them.
Best to call off Sunday's game in Anfield, safety first and all that...