Even if we could play 4-4-3, we’d still lose
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
Even if we could play 4-4-3, we’d still lose
No as shit as Dalot is you play him cause one he is quicker than Malacia and two he is right footed so it will be "easier" for him to defend Salah when he cuts in cause Dalot is right footed rather than Malacia who will be wrong footed when Salah cuts in.
Yeah, he's definitely going with Dalot as the RWB.
Probably Yoro Maguire Martinez as the back 3 too then
Probably Yoro Maguire Martinez as the back 3 too then
You mean LWB?
Yes. Unless Amorim wants to try something insane for the first time.
Like try starting Garnacho as LWB
?We can hopeLike try starting Garnacho as LWB
I actually think now in the hindsight we have got this appointment at the wrong time. We should have kept Ruud as the interim or got any other manager who is experienced who would get the best of the players for the reminder of the season.
Then started fresh next season with him and buy the full backs and CAMs he need for the system to work alongside the striker. He could get pre-season and drilled the team the way he wanted, and for players as well the whole process would have been smoother. Lets break down his system and the problems we are facing.
1) In the 3-4-3 system the wingbacks are supposed to be like wingers going forward and full backs when defending, whereas our wingbacks look like full backs when attacking and look like a deer in the headlights, one on one against opposition full backs and their first instinct is to always play it back instead of taking them on, making our formation 5-2-3 incredible boring with no cutting edge (takes me back to those LVG days).
2) The next puzzle in this system is the left and right CAMs. They are supposed to be in half spaces closer to striker, So in theory we should have a three man attack with two center backs being occupied by the central striker and two full backs being kept busy by wingbacks and then these two players create havoc between the lines and make it difficult for opposition full backs and central midfielders to hold their positions. What we have right now is Amad is occupying RW position (to compensate for Maz's lack of suitability), and left CAM is also starting wide but whether its Bruno or Eriksen whoever is playing does not have the dribbling, agility to play that role effectively, leaving us keeping hold of the ball without hurting opposition.
3) Another issue due to these CAMs not closer to ST but rather wide, it leaves the ST very isolated as he does not have anybody to combine, which looks very apparent specially as our striker does not have the ability to hold the ball well, turn dribble and take the shots away. Mostly he is outmuscled and outfought and then to add insult to injury, he does not have anybody combining and linking up with him close by.
4) One of the benefit of playing with three center backs is one or sometimes can vacate their position and and follow or pressurize CAM of other teams high up (mostly in the middle), we saw Martinez doing this against De Bruyne or Yoro against Maddison. It results in outnumbering 2 CMs of other team with our one CB and two midfielders (making it three for us).
However, we have seen us abandon this tactic in few games or players not following this, specially against Newcastle since they played 3 in the middle, we were outnumbered and our CBs did not support the midfield resulting us not only being outnumbered but also physically we were no match. We practically ended up with 5 defenders against 3 attackers, which makes is incredibly easy for them to outclass us in different areas of the pitch because of numerical superiority.
So keeping all these issues in mind, the crux is we don't have suitable players for this formation even if we intend to get all of these players for this manager then what will happen to Maz or Dalot or Garnacho. Because they are not bad players just not fit for the system. Then the new wingbacks and Cams they will be tailor made for this formation only what happens if Amorim does not work out, then we will go and buy full backs again and sell these wing backs?
The best option is to slightly amend the formation go with different variant of 4. Or if we intend to go for 3 at the back at least have Amad or Garnacho (both preferably) as wingbacks. At least we will be entertaining going forward and score some goals, we are leaking goals anyway, but knowing Amorim and his stubbornness i think we are in for a tough ride unless he becomes flexible.
Then started fresh next season with him and buy the full backs and CAMs he need for the system to work alongside the striker. He could get pre-season and drilled the team the way he wanted, and for players as well the whole process would have been smoother. Lets break down his system and the problems we are facing.
1) In the 3-4-3 system the wingbacks are supposed to be like wingers going forward and full backs when defending, whereas our wingbacks look like full backs when attacking and look like a deer in the headlights, one on one against opposition full backs and their first instinct is to always play it back instead of taking them on, making our formation 5-2-3 incredible boring with no cutting edge (takes me back to those LVG days).
2) The next puzzle in this system is the left and right CAMs. They are supposed to be in half spaces closer to striker, So in theory we should have a three man attack with two center backs being occupied by the central striker and two full backs being kept busy by wingbacks and then these two players create havoc between the lines and make it difficult for opposition full backs and central midfielders to hold their positions. What we have right now is Amad is occupying RW position (to compensate for Maz's lack of suitability), and left CAM is also starting wide but whether its Bruno or Eriksen whoever is playing does not have the dribbling, agility to play that role effectively, leaving us keeping hold of the ball without hurting opposition.
3) Another issue due to these CAMs not closer to ST but rather wide, it leaves the ST very isolated as he does not have anybody to combine, which looks very apparent specially as our striker does not have the ability to hold the ball well, turn dribble and take the shots away. Mostly he is outmuscled and outfought and then to add insult to injury, he does not have anybody combining and linking up with him close by.
4) One of the benefit of playing with three center backs is one or sometimes can vacate their position and and follow or pressurize CAM of other teams high up (mostly in the middle), we saw Martinez doing this against De Bruyne or Yoro against Maddison. It results in outnumbering 2 CMs of other team with our one CB and two midfielders (making it three for us).
However, we have seen us abandon this tactic in few games or players not following this, specially against Newcastle since they played 3 in the middle, we were outnumbered and our CBs did not support the midfield resulting us not only being outnumbered but also physically we were no match. We practically ended up with 5 defenders against 3 attackers, which makes is incredibly easy for them to outclass us in different areas of the pitch because of numerical superiority.
So keeping all these issues in mind, the crux is we don't have suitable players for this formation even if we intend to get all of these players for this manager then what will happen to Maz or Dalot or Garnacho. Because they are not bad players just not fit for the system. Then the new wingbacks and Cams they will be tailor made for this formation only what happens if Amorim does not work out, then we will go and buy full backs again and sell these wing backs?
The best option is to slightly amend the formation go with different variant of 4. Or if we intend to go for 3 at the back at least have Amad or Garnacho (both preferably) as wingbacks. At least we will be entertaining going forward and score some goals, we are leaking goals anyway, but knowing Amorim and his stubbornness i think we are in for a tough ride unless he becomes flexible.
100%
If nothing else the guys runs all day, doesn’t do much else but he will graft.
I don't see how getting smashed playing the new system helps anyone here. Just shore up the best we can, try and keep them out and experiment when it's worth it.
Why is everyone saying ‘ball knowledge’ these days? When did that start?
Does anyone have a link to the analysis that Carager did for the positioning of our wingbacks? Dalot in particular.
Found a tiktok video but it’s a short clip.
The video pretty much shows why we have been so poor going forward due to the positioning of our wingbacks.
Here is the TikTok clip :
Analysis
Found a tiktok video but it’s a short clip.
The video pretty much shows why we have been so poor going forward due to the positioning of our wingbacks.
Here is the TikTok clip :
Analysis
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Once in 30 odd seasons. Hardly a compelling argument for three at the back.
It's so bloody cringe. Something all the teenagers say on social media because they think it's the 'in' thing to say. Terrible.
Spherical wherewithal
Are the player crap? Yes.
Are we likely to have an overhaul anytime soon? No.
Does that mean the manager has to work with what he’s got? Yes.
Does that look likely based on what we’ve seen?No.
Something has to give here. I’ve seen a lot of people saying they feel sorry for him, you need to tread very carefully with this train of thought because this is absolving the manager of responsibility for performances and results. The reality is, no matter how shit the squad is the buck always stops with the manager.
Are we likely to have an overhaul anytime soon? No.
Does that mean the manager has to work with what he’s got? Yes.
Does that look likely based on what we’ve seen?No.
Something has to give here. I’ve seen a lot of people saying they feel sorry for him, you need to tread very carefully with this train of thought because this is absolving the manager of responsibility for performances and results. The reality is, no matter how shit the squad is the buck always stops with the manager.
It is stupid , he has been horrendous this season and have been subbed offf twice before half time
I would rather reset everything than have him scrape some shitty wins with a 4-2-3-1 and nothing change fundamentally. This club has been letting us down so much for so long that I am past looking at the manager anymore.
Put simply, I trust him a lot more than I trust these players.
Goalposts, I command thee to move!
Why would you want to read the analysis of a bloke that cannot stand Utd?
If the bloke was any good he would be a coach at a good club instead of being one of a collection of puppets employed by Sky Sports.
Why is it that when a manager is trying to change things for the better, he gets shit on especially when he hasnt even been with the club for 2 months yet when players have been here for years and are utter shite get a pass with every single manager?
What the hell? He is actually a very good analyst and is spot on when it comes to things about United. Also being a analyst and coach arent two similar things.
That’s a question for upper management. I’m not trying to shit on him, I want him to succeed as much as anyone but we can say whatever we want, he’ll ultimately be judged by his superiors at the club.
Are you a Liverpool supporter?
What a weird take. You don't have to like Carragher the player to appreciate Carragher the analyst
Carragher is a little bait inducing but he's a fecking fantastic pundit.
I say it very begrudgingly but he's honestly one of my favourite sport pundits.
I say it very begrudgingly but he's honestly one of my favourite sport pundits.
Have you drank any of the Kool Aid cause its NYE? If I say Carragher is good at his job I am a Liverpool supporter? Is that how shallow you are?
And yours is a perfectly normal take for a supporter of another club.
Agreed! If you look that tik tok video again he was absolutely right on the positioning of the wingbacks.
Such a childish way to view football.
Amorim keeps mentioning that he needs more training sessions with the players, the team doesn't play Liverpool until Sunday now, does that mean he can fit in some good training sessions from now until then?
I saw that actual clip on MNF before the game about our WB positioning, and how they're not used to attacking - they sit too deep naturally when they should be providing width and opportunities for diagonal balls.
Well sure we prolly have sessions Wednesday, Thursday and Friday but again that is not enough. But its better than what he has had over the past month.
Are you 12?
Good night Bondi the troll!Shallow!
What are you on?
Supporting one team is so childish
Good night RD the secret Liverpool fan!
So? The point is it can work. It’s also becoming more and more popular. Loads of teams use the formation now. Including the team with the longest unbeaten run in Europe over the last several years, Leverkusen. Tactics aren’t set in stone. They change. Wasn’t all that long ago it was seen as weird to not play 442.
At the end of the day it’s 11 vs 11. The idea that a specific formation can’t possibly work because of the geographical location of the league is just stupid.
I am not one of your classmates...go to bed!