Is it bold to presume we are capable of getting 12+ points in the remaining 19 games? I don't think we will need much more, don't see both Wolves and Ipswich finishing on 35+. One of them, yeah, both I doubt.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Locked during matches
- Thread starter sewey89
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Can anyone point me to the positives of Amorim's appointment since he came in?
He has strong english and excellent media management but aside from that I'm struggling.
- On a historic run of poor form.
- Managed to dry up what was already a pretty barren attack
- Demoted our highly sought after set piece coach, replaced him with his mate and served a disasterclass since
- Publicly denigrated the ability and quality of the squad
- Alienated our key attacking players this season (I know some of you like the Rashford treatment)
- Set/allowed expectations that Utd would lose games
He has strong english and excellent media management but aside from that I'm struggling.
- On a historic run of poor form.
- Managed to dry up what was already a pretty barren attack
- Demoted our highly sought after set piece coach, replaced him with his mate and served a disasterclass since
- Publicly denigrated the ability and quality of the squad
- Alienated our key attacking players this season (I know some of you like the Rashford treatment)
- Set/allowed expectations that Utd would lose games
it's ok budWhat was it then because I hope it wasn't to languish in midtable or potentially be relegated?
You said it yourself, there may be stuff going on behind the scenes we are unaware of, and there probably is.
Rashford has been dropped before, for both footballing and personal reasons, and he's not kicked on, and in at least one case IIRC was brought back too soon, thus not learning any type of lesson. He's a confused footballer. Doesn't finish. Doesn't take the ball past people. Doesn't link up play well. Sulks, and looks generally miserable despite earning millions. Like Sancho and Lingard, there's a toxicity to him that at some point a manager just has to deal with. These coddled players aren't world beaters who have license to act however they want. They've had a hand in throwing a succession of managers under the bus.
Well unless you’ve spoken to the decision makers at the club, we can’t say. My guess is to start working on making the club better in the long term, but that’s just a guess.
We hired him because we (belatedly) accepted we were going nowhere with ETH and it made sense to give his replacement as long as possible to work with the players before his first full season in charge. We also probably needed to move quickly in case someone else tried to hire him while we were pissing around with interims.
He's as safe as he can potentially be given the circumstances, however it does not mean he will be completely immune. After Liverpool and Arsenal we have a few winnable games: Southampton (H), Brighton (H), Fulham (A), Palace (H) and Spurs (A) in the next 5. He has to win at least 7-8 points in these at bare minimum, e.g. if he loses all 5 or gets only 2-3 points his job will definitely not be safe anymore.
Maybe it was a more long-sighted view to actually bring about tangible change to a club that has repeatedly made bad decision after bad decision over the last decade, with an acceptance that a reset is needed in order to make... you know... actual positive long term change that sets us up better for the future?
The "process", whatever it has been, thus far has failed. It's fine to admit that and start again whilst also not expecting to finish in the top 4 this season and forward planning for that.
How far we are dragged into a relegation battle depends on a lot of factors. It is not decided before the turn of the calendar year however much the anger around it swells your nether regions.
There's a lot to be learned, a lot of progress that can be made, and a lot of football to play.
When Amorim was appointed, it was understood that he would need time to implement his own system. This wasn’t about parachuting in a manager to work with a squad already tailored to his approach, nor was there an expectation for him to prioritise short-term results over long-term development—unlike Ten Hag, who in his first season focused on results rather than building a foundation for a sustainable playing style.
The struggles we’re seeing now should not come as a surprise. Personally, I believe adding a couple of quality wing-backs could make a significant difference in helping Amorim’s system take shape. These aren’t prohibitively expensive positions to fill; you don’t need to spend £70-80 million to bring in high-level players. The solution is well within reach. Offloading a few players or even sending someone like Rashford out on loan to reduce the wage bill could provide the funds needed. It’s a manageable fix to a pressing issue, and I’d be surprised if the club’s executives haven’t already identified some quality wing-backs to target in this transfer window.
This season’s league position isn’t the most important thing. The priority is to secure enough wins to eliminate any risk of relegation, then focus entirely on embedding Amorim’s philosophy and building for next season. I was willing to accept Ten Hag sacrificing results in his first season to develop a modern, possession-based style, but he instead prioritised results. That approach left us with a system that couldn’t evolve into one capable of winning the league or competing for the Champions League. While it delivered a solid first season on paper, it set the club up for failure in the long run.
Amorim, however, is taking a different path, and INEOS fully understand this—it’s why they hired him. This long-term vision is the difference, and it’s what we need to back moving forward.
The struggles we’re seeing now should not come as a surprise. Personally, I believe adding a couple of quality wing-backs could make a significant difference in helping Amorim’s system take shape. These aren’t prohibitively expensive positions to fill; you don’t need to spend £70-80 million to bring in high-level players. The solution is well within reach. Offloading a few players or even sending someone like Rashford out on loan to reduce the wage bill could provide the funds needed. It’s a manageable fix to a pressing issue, and I’d be surprised if the club’s executives haven’t already identified some quality wing-backs to target in this transfer window.
This season’s league position isn’t the most important thing. The priority is to secure enough wins to eliminate any risk of relegation, then focus entirely on embedding Amorim’s philosophy and building for next season. I was willing to accept Ten Hag sacrificing results in his first season to develop a modern, possession-based style, but he instead prioritised results. That approach left us with a system that couldn’t evolve into one capable of winning the league or competing for the Champions League. While it delivered a solid first season on paper, it set the club up for failure in the long run.
Amorim, however, is taking a different path, and INEOS fully understand this—it’s why they hired him. This long-term vision is the difference, and it’s what we need to back moving forward.
Yup. And if he wins four out of those five (which is definitely possible) then we’re pushing for European football and relegation threat basically disappears. Which is why the inevitable moaning if/when we lose our next two games is so pointless.
I have to admit that the Rashford situation seems odd to me too. Amorim had been here for less than a month as he drops Rashford from the squad. How much might Amorim have tried in these weeks before deciding Rashford was unusable? And as you say, Rashford even scored goals under Amorim in the 2 first matches, so it was not all bad.
There is no doubt that Rashford has a problem with his motivation, but I don't see how Amorim can come to the conclusion in just a few weeks that the best thing for the team will be for Rashford not to be in the squad. But as you say, things may have happened that we don't know about.
Just starting dropping these players, tell their agent to find them a new club. Amorim should start handing younger players a chance.
You're example of LvG is the reverse of what you want to happen here. LvG fell back to what he knew after a failed experiment of a 352 system, of which he fell upon just before the WC because he had no choice. He had success with it and tried to implement it here, it didn't work so he fell back to what he knew. You are asking Amorim to move from something he knows to something unfamiliar.
This is a situation Amorim has been thrown into. He is and has always been upfront in his belief in his system - I'm not sure why it is a surprise to you that he "seems inflexible". It isn't news. He and Ineos would have known we didn't have the players for it, yet Ineos still gave him a take it or leave it offer. Amorim didn't want to move mid season. In that situation everyone involved must have known how this was going to go down in the short term, and Amorim even told us so in his first press conference.
It's kind of difficult to understand why anyone would then use this situation with a stick to beat him with. The guys sticking to what he knows and why he was brought in.
Yes, he said they have only really had about 4 training sessions since his arrival. I fully expect we will see an improvement in the coming weeks.
Do you really want to introduce the young talents at a time when the club is in a historic crisis? I think it would be too much responsibility to put on them right now.
If he wasn’t, which certainly appeared the case considering we were what? 4-5 points off top four when he arrived, with Ruud starting us on a roll, then it might honestly be the most monumentally stupid decision the board has made since Fergie, and feck me that’s saying something.
If the plan was to absolutely crash this season for some idea of short term pain, long term gain, they have literally put the club’s financial future at risk.
It’s clear to me they hoped Amorim would hit the ground running and make something of this season, else they’d have kept Ruud and brought Amorim in June to start his rebuild.
How is it that difficult to understand?
Rashford isn't putting the same effort in as others - on the pitch or in training. He gets dropped from the squad for the City game (over a month after Amorim takes charge so he has had plenty of time to asses). A couple of days later, rather than getting his head down, Rashford tell the press he is "ready for a new challenge".
Do you really want that guy in your squad? Especially given he is one of your top earners.
As Andy Mitten said....
“Every previous manager has had issues with Marcus Rashford. I’ve spoken to them, I know them. They’ve told me in confidence going back years and years and years.”
We want a manager who will come in and change the culture. When he makes moves to do so, we question him.
Yeah, it looks bleak right now (all the shite "records" he's setting is obviously not a great look, let's say, cosmetically) - but it is very much possible for him to turn this around.
I'm on board with the "open heart surgery" idea myself. Whether he's the one to do it (or rather help doing it - because the people above him are more important in that regard) remains to be seen, of course. And I don't blame anyone for being skeptical/not overly patient. We, as United fans, have no very solid reason for trusting either Amorim or the people who hired him - we're very much in uncharted waters as far as I'm concerned.
But for now - he needs more time, simple as that.
I think you can come to the conclusion pretty quickly if you are Amorim. The trouble for Rashford is that all his problems with EtH and other managers was well publicised. Unless Amorim was living under a rock then he would have been aware of how Rashford is or could be.
It looks as if it didn't take long for Rashford to prove his conceptions of him to be more right than wrong. In which case, if you are Amorim, why bother trying to go down the same path as the previous managers. His out.
True. Forest, Bournemouth and Newcastle at home were fixtures against teams in the close-to-peak-playing category. Unlucky to play them, especially at home.
Obviously, any games against City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are free hits. Zero expectations. Any points are a bonus.
Villa, Spurs, Brighton are lower in the table, but when we play them, these would be classed as a CL side, a EL side and a bogey-team, so can't expect anything there either.
Our only hope seems to be the lower half of the table and that they don't turn up with a close-to-peak player like Cunha.
Maybe you’re right. He was such an ass though. Always enjoyed Ole’s consistently positive outlook. That 6-8 month period of Marcus, Martial and Mason was fun.
What guarantee have you got the Ruud would have done any better? He won 3 games against absolute dross teams. Two against LCFC which he himself is now seeing just how bad they are. As much as we love him, his managerial pedigree is nothing compared to Amorim.
We know these players are weak willed. You really want to give them a caretaker manager who they know has a limited time at the club? You think that will motivate them?
More likely they would down tools, safe in the knowledge that a new manager would come in over the summer and their slate would be wiped clean.
We all knew he needed time and that is what he must be given. As someone on here has previously stated, the remainder of this season is a pre-season.
We simply do not have the quality of players for him, or any manager to work with. Look at that squad! It's a joke!
This time next season is when I will judge him. Rashford is irrelevant, he said he wants to leave, told a journalist before telling his manager. That's unacceptable.
We simply do not have the quality of players for him, or any manager to work with. Look at that squad! It's a joke!
This time next season is when I will judge him. Rashford is irrelevant, he said he wants to leave, told a journalist before telling his manager. That's unacceptable.
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No guarantee, my point was that Ruud was already seeing results and a turnaround in confidence, including a decent draw v Chelsea. He was also using tactics the players were used to.
Amorim didn’t want to come until the Summer himself and neither ETH nor Ruud looked in risk if relegation. It seems an insane gamble if they brought in Amorim mid-season to risk relegation whilst implementing a completely different system.
Exactly. A performance like yesterday won’t win us many games (but we won’t have to play a midfield of two pensioners anymore, hopefully), but I still think playing like we did against Forest and Bournemouth - despite losing both these games - will get us points more often than not.
As long as he learns from what we see, I don't really mind this short term crap.
Eriksen/Case we should never see as the pair again.
He has to risk at least one more attacking WB, Amad, Antony, Garnacho, whoever, we just need something more.
I honestly would love to see Ugarte/Bruno as the pair, with Bruno becoming more of a playmaker from deep (thus negating his awful finishing and desperation to try first time killer balls and playing to his strengths and workrate, he would still get the ball in advanced areas - just look at Case last night) and then put Mainoo/Amad as the 10s. They are beautifully technical and clever players who we want on the ball as much as possible in those advanced areas.
3 CBs + Ugarte is enough defensive protection and then put Dalot RWB and Antony LWB. Both are limited but graft and will be more forward thinking on those sides. Maz as RCB is another sensible move in my opinion. I can't help but think he's come in and tried to get things settled by hoping to nick wins or draws by being quite defensive and it's really not worked. He's got a free pass, let's see a lot more attacking threat from this team.
Eriksen/Case we should never see as the pair again.
He has to risk at least one more attacking WB, Amad, Antony, Garnacho, whoever, we just need something more.
I honestly would love to see Ugarte/Bruno as the pair, with Bruno becoming more of a playmaker from deep (thus negating his awful finishing and desperation to try first time killer balls and playing to his strengths and workrate, he would still get the ball in advanced areas - just look at Case last night) and then put Mainoo/Amad as the 10s. They are beautifully technical and clever players who we want on the ball as much as possible in those advanced areas.
3 CBs + Ugarte is enough defensive protection and then put Dalot RWB and Antony LWB. Both are limited but graft and will be more forward thinking on those sides. Maz as RCB is another sensible move in my opinion. I can't help but think he's come in and tried to get things settled by hoping to nick wins or draws by being quite defensive and it's really not worked. He's got a free pass, let's see a lot more attacking threat from this team.
You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made the decision to hire Ruben in mid-season, they must have known that our current squad does not fit the tactic he uses and there would be no money in January to sign players that could play that way so we would be basically writing off our season.
I reckon they knew/believed he would go to City with Viana + did not want to PR headlines of how City stole him from United.
You are right. I have said it many times when managed by ETH or Ole. We are just not an organized, well structured team. We have not played as a collective for a long time. Teams with lesser players usually look better organized than us. They may be collectively weaker because of lack of talent, but you can see what they are trying to accomplish. Most are compact, hard to score on and press from the front.
We would have to rely on moments to win games from players like Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho who have it in them the ability to do special things. We cant keep replying on that or we will continue to be a Europa league team with the highest wage bill in the league.
After 2.5 years under ETH, not many people could point to many games where the team really played "Ten Hag football".
It is like The Art of War book by Sun Tzu. You can beat a stronger opponent in war with the right strategy. It is exactly what teams like Bournemouth and Forest do to us.
Yes indeed. And to be fair to Amorim, he wanted to delay joining United because he probably knew that he had an almost impossible task with the current squad.
I know many still completely dismiss it - but xG looks alright, I think?
As in - better under A. than under ETH.
Not much, granted - but still, worth noting.
Spit the dog and Sky were stirring hard against Amorim last night.
Sad to see so many are swallowing the bait.
He’s had barely any time on the training ground with the squad, we’re currently playing his system in starting line up and a few basic principles only.
He said we would suffer when he got here, was very clear about that. If people stop and think a bit more they might realise that in doing so he’s demonstrated how astute he is.
Give him some credit and let him get on with the job.
Sad to see so many are swallowing the bait.
He’s had barely any time on the training ground with the squad, we’re currently playing his system in starting line up and a few basic principles only.
He said we would suffer when he got here, was very clear about that. If people stop and think a bit more they might realise that in doing so he’s demonstrated how astute he is.
Give him some credit and let him get on with the job.
I'm getting a little worried for Amorim, don't think anything is imminent but something not squaring for me. There is another thread about how Ratcliffe is a money hungry greedy bastard.
Then you come in here and the attitude is very. "Who gives a toss? If we lose every game and bomb out of every competition. The most important thing is playing 3 at the back and converting Dalot into a LWB!"
Isn't there financial incentive to finishing high in the table, winning cup competitions? What's more important for Jim? Money or 343?
Then you come in here and the attitude is very. "Who gives a toss? If we lose every game and bomb out of every competition. The most important thing is playing 3 at the back and converting Dalot into a LWB!"
Isn't there financial incentive to finishing high in the table, winning cup competitions? What's more important for Jim? Money or 343?
Ah the Alexis Sanchez move...
Trust the process. I have 100% trust in the manager. We have poor squad but in some games we actually didn't play poor. We conceded probably 3/4 goals from set pieces, or individual errors. Not to mention goals with lucky deflections landing perfectly to opposing attackers, two or three goals with fouls against our goalkeeper not given etc. Not to mention we are an absolute abomination when converting chances we have probably 2/10 conversion rate at best. And teams of course raising game when facing United (Wolves played like it is the last game of their lives). Give manager some players of his choosing in January and results will pick up. A summer without distractions, a solid summer transfers, and a year without any european football and we could start to see something resembling what Amorim wants.
Worked out a treat for us
Yes - and we have done the very same thing many times in the post-SAF era, against better teams (last obvious example being the FA Cup final).
The question is whether we should abandon this approach altogether - and just focus on becoming the team others need to beat (by pulling a successful underdog tactic of some kind or another).
Or - should Amorim do what pretty much everyone (except maybe LVG) have done...namely to ditch the actual (preferred) tactic in favour of a more pragmatic one every so often...more and more often...until it becomes the default?
Simplistic - yes, I know.
But if you ask me, we should absolutely suffer whatever hits it takes to make us a well-drilled team.
Well, as long as the guy doing the drilling knows what he's doing (of course). But I must say that I like Amorim - I don't fully trust him, but I like him. Not least because he's said pretty much explicitly that it's going to be painful - that we're going to struggle to a considerable degree before things take a turn for the better.
Ole lost 5-0
Rangnick lost 4-0
Ten Hag lost 7-0
Rangnick lost 4-0
Ten Hag lost 7-0
It did prior to Wolves game. The last two games, not really.