You can have the wingbacks invert, but if they do then the wide attacker has to stay wide to give balance and stretch the pitch. Really bold strategy to have zero width, with five defenders and two sitting midfielders. Gave us nowhere to go and made it so easy for Newcastle to run all over us.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
You're probably right, it's just melting my brain how bad we've become.
Absolutely not. Amo pointed out post match that the positive moments in the second half came from the players, not his system. That's the level of performance you're advocating? We need to allow the methods to bed in and then see where it takes us, and get away from winnning entirely through individuality. This argument - also made by a journalist last night ffs - that we should return to some system that the players are comfortable with, even though those systems got previous managers sacked, is insane.
They hired him knowing he would play these tactics.
It'll be a mistake to start them together as a pair against any team in the prem or championship
Ruben has walked into a club in a state of significant upheaval on and off the pitch, he wanted to wait, Ineos said they wouldn't, subsequently he's working with a mish mash of the result of several transfer windows, none of which he had a say in, so he's trying to juggle all the things other managers have to deal with whilst trying to implement a new system with some players who clearly won't be here in twelve to eighteen months and he's doing this on the fly, show me a manager who wouldn't struggle under these circumstances. I believe we have a shot with this guy to become contenders once more, to those who wanna chuck that in for mid table mediocrity under someone like Potter or God help us Sir Gareth, get some ambition in your souls.
Must admit I've been really underwhelmed by him. Sure, he talks a good game and there's not a whole lot I disagree with him on regarding the state of the club but tactically he's frustratingly closed minded.
Question is, do we really need to play this set up now if half the team is going to be moved on in the summer anyway?
He'll bring in individuals who can play his style in the summer.
Question is, do we really need to play this set up now if half the team is going to be moved on in the summer anyway?
He'll bring in individuals who can play his style in the summer.
Aye, but they clearly hoped the tactics would continue at least to put enough points on the board to push for Europe, else they’d have waited until the Summer.
They didn’t hire him giving a thumbs up to possible relegation, he’ll be out of the door before that seriously becomes a possibility.
How many times he has to make early substituions? Before half time today, a few at half time particularly on Malacia and early second half changes. It is quite a lot. Most of the times, play got improved but always too late to turn things around. It shows that he knows how to fix the play but it also show that he is experimenting too much and seems lack of studies on how the opponents will play. The Arsenal goals were clear evidence.
That's a good point but I don't think De Ligt suits Amorims system.
That is a good point.
Far less likely to score than what? The team/formation we used before Amorim took over. Are you serious? Look at the GF tally in the table.
We do look worse at the back, especially at set pieces. Although that is is being skewed slightly by us playing generally strong teams under Amorim. Whatever, it seems weird to me to get hung up on the idea that we need a less defensive, more attacking lineup.
May as well bring Ole back for the good vibes and the 451 if Amorim is sacked before the season ends. The bed wetters would love it
Take off your tin foil hat ffs.
I'll stick my head above the parapet and prepare myself for the inevitable abuse but I would sack Amorim and I would do it now. The alarm bells are, at this point, deafening already and I just don't see anything within Amorim's United to suggest that he is the answer or has any positives that make him in any way appropriate to continue as Manchester United manager for any longer than necessary.
I'll start by saying a couple of things. Firstly, Ratcliffe and INEOS and the Glazers are two cheeks of the same backside and both need to go. We don't need to go on about the Glazers but their clever move to have Ratcliffe and INEOS as the face of things keeps some of the flak off them and it was a superb move on their part. Ratcliffe is a penny pinching parasite that appears to be sucking the life out of the place to satisfy his spreadsheets and, frankly, he's showing himself to be a pretty unpleasant and unlikeable character in doing so yet also showing himself and INEOS to be clowns. Secondly, yes, this is a poor United squad, many are unlikeable and many shouldn't be at the club and hopefully many move on or are moved on in the summer, though I do wonder who would look at almost all contracted players and want to a) pay a transfer fee for them that sees United recoup some/all of our initial outlay or b) pay these players what we've been paying them on a weekly basis, it's how and why we've had an extra couple of years of Harry Maguire, who turned down West Ham to continue at United on the extortionate wages we've paid him.
But I don't want to digress too much and back to my point, I'd sack Amorim. Simply, he's one dimensional, he has no plan b, his plan a looks awful, there's no signs of improvement and therefore little to hold on to, there's almost no attempt at winning games, the results have been awful and his post match comments get more and more bizarre with every passing game.
The 343 isn't working, the players don't suit it and therefore the results and manner of the results is awful. Let's indulge the "yeah, but he doesn't have the players to suit his formation" crowd. He doesn't, that much is true. The performances and results have added to what we already know. So, why are we persisting with this? It's not working and the results are poor, why are we doubling down again and again on a formation that isn't working? Is it stubbornness? And now lets play a hypothetical game of FIFA. Let's say that one or two leave in January and six or seven more of this team are going in the summer, I won't name names because I would personally be happy to see all bar three leave, why are we persisting with a formation that isn't working when many of this current crop aren't even going to be here come the start of the 2025/26 season? It comes across as lunacy to me. There were, early on, small signs of improvement with the formation, that has fell off a cliff and with each passing game we are regressing to the point where it now looks like career suicide sending out teams with no intention of winning the game, like last night. It wasn't even a Jose Mourinho type getting everyone behind the ball and grinding out results, it was essentially just sending the players, many unsuitable for the roles and formation, out in the hope that something magically clicked. It's borderline career suicide, as though he's tossed it already and is just now waiting for the inevitable P45 and suitcases full of cash. There's no attempt at winning games under Amorim, it's all about the formation, at all costs, and results are meaningless to him, which is crazy because results, confidence and morale go hand-in-hand and if anything, his kamikaze attempts at football management are sapping confidence and morale as much as Ratcliffe's relentless cutting of cash and relationships.
There isn't a plan b and you can mention that he doesn't have the players but given that there is no attempt at any point during his tenure, so far, at a plan b or doing something different when we've inevitably been behind, I can't grasp on to the hope that if he gets three of his mates over from his former club (I've heard this one before) that he's suddenly going to have a plan b that he's been keeping to himself ready to unleash on the Premier League. The Zirkzee hooking last night was, simply, damage limitation to ensure it ended at two and not six, which was a distinct possibility. I think, at this stage, it's wishful thinking to think that this improves based solely on some random signings from Sporting. I've never seen a manager or coach so dialled into one formation with the incredible arrogance and stubbornness not to change or do something different to attempt to win a game of football.
I'd put it down as a bad idea, move him on, it's not worked and go again. The problem is it's going to make the City clique look incompetent and I can't see them taking it on the chin and facing the backlash.
I'll start by saying a couple of things. Firstly, Ratcliffe and INEOS and the Glazers are two cheeks of the same backside and both need to go. We don't need to go on about the Glazers but their clever move to have Ratcliffe and INEOS as the face of things keeps some of the flak off them and it was a superb move on their part. Ratcliffe is a penny pinching parasite that appears to be sucking the life out of the place to satisfy his spreadsheets and, frankly, he's showing himself to be a pretty unpleasant and unlikeable character in doing so yet also showing himself and INEOS to be clowns. Secondly, yes, this is a poor United squad, many are unlikeable and many shouldn't be at the club and hopefully many move on or are moved on in the summer, though I do wonder who would look at almost all contracted players and want to a) pay a transfer fee for them that sees United recoup some/all of our initial outlay or b) pay these players what we've been paying them on a weekly basis, it's how and why we've had an extra couple of years of Harry Maguire, who turned down West Ham to continue at United on the extortionate wages we've paid him.
But I don't want to digress too much and back to my point, I'd sack Amorim. Simply, he's one dimensional, he has no plan b, his plan a looks awful, there's no signs of improvement and therefore little to hold on to, there's almost no attempt at winning games, the results have been awful and his post match comments get more and more bizarre with every passing game.
The 343 isn't working, the players don't suit it and therefore the results and manner of the results is awful. Let's indulge the "yeah, but he doesn't have the players to suit his formation" crowd. He doesn't, that much is true. The performances and results have added to what we already know. So, why are we persisting with this? It's not working and the results are poor, why are we doubling down again and again on a formation that isn't working? Is it stubbornness? And now lets play a hypothetical game of FIFA. Let's say that one or two leave in January and six or seven more of this team are going in the summer, I won't name names because I would personally be happy to see all bar three leave, why are we persisting with a formation that isn't working when many of this current crop aren't even going to be here come the start of the 2025/26 season? It comes across as lunacy to me. There were, early on, small signs of improvement with the formation, that has fell off a cliff and with each passing game we are regressing to the point where it now looks like career suicide sending out teams with no intention of winning the game, like last night. It wasn't even a Jose Mourinho type getting everyone behind the ball and grinding out results, it was essentially just sending the players, many unsuitable for the roles and formation, out in the hope that something magically clicked. It's borderline career suicide, as though he's tossed it already and is just now waiting for the inevitable P45 and suitcases full of cash. There's no attempt at winning games under Amorim, it's all about the formation, at all costs, and results are meaningless to him, which is crazy because results, confidence and morale go hand-in-hand and if anything, his kamikaze attempts at football management are sapping confidence and morale as much as Ratcliffe's relentless cutting of cash and relationships.
There isn't a plan b and you can mention that he doesn't have the players but given that there is no attempt at any point during his tenure, so far, at a plan b or doing something different when we've inevitably been behind, I can't grasp on to the hope that if he gets three of his mates over from his former club (I've heard this one before) that he's suddenly going to have a plan b that he's been keeping to himself ready to unleash on the Premier League. The Zirkzee hooking last night was, simply, damage limitation to ensure it ended at two and not six, which was a distinct possibility. I think, at this stage, it's wishful thinking to think that this improves based solely on some random signings from Sporting. I've never seen a manager or coach so dialled into one formation with the incredible arrogance and stubbornness not to change or do something different to attempt to win a game of football.
I'd put it down as a bad idea, move him on, it's not worked and go again. The problem is it's going to make the City clique look incompetent and I can't see them taking it on the chin and facing the backlash.
Sorry, I must remember wrong. So many managers and tactics during the last years that my head must be spinning.
Ruben Amorim's plan for Utd greatness.
1) Decide you want to copy over the football system from your previous team because 'idea'.
2) Acknowledge that the current Utd squad is unsuitable for your preferred system.
3) Acknowledge that you don't have enough time to retrain the available squad in your system.
4) Accept that you don't have the financial capability to remould the squad.
5) Play preferred system anyway.
6) Acknowledge this will lead to lots of losses and poor performances.
7) Lose games as anticipated.
8)....
9) Profit.
1) Decide you want to copy over the football system from your previous team because 'idea'.
2) Acknowledge that the current Utd squad is unsuitable for your preferred system.
3) Acknowledge that you don't have enough time to retrain the available squad in your system.
4) Accept that you don't have the financial capability to remould the squad.
5) Play preferred system anyway.
6) Acknowledge this will lead to lots of losses and poor performances.
7) Lose games as anticipated.
8)....
9) Profit.
A big win against Everton has skewed those stats, we’ve lost 5 in 6 games since then and look more and more toothless with every passing game. You surely see that ?
He has to tweak the wing backs. We've lost 4 in a row now, all of those matches pretty winnable and he's playing 5 defenders every time. Mazraoui is particularly bad as a wing back but Amorim seems to have settled on that despite using him more effectively in his first few matches.
I get that the hand he's been dealt is far from ideal but the line up selections have been getting worse over the last few games. Newcastle last night was by far the worst but it's becoming a theme which is a bit concerning.
I get that the hand he's been dealt is far from ideal but the line up selections have been getting worse over the last few games. Newcastle last night was by far the worst but it's becoming a theme which is a bit concerning.
Nah. I feel so fecking sorry for the lad. He’s not the problem. He’s playing in a broken team for a broken club.That expression is perfect.
Fantastic post. Removing him seems rash but Christ if all of the logic points towards it.
Who lasts longer, him or Maresca?
I feel like Enzo is more likely to get the sack but Ruben is more likely to quit.
I feel like Enzo is more likely to get the sack but Ruben is more likely to quit.
Neither do I, look I had not long been awake and read it wrong. I apologise
Take your head out of the sand.
I think United bought players for the club last Summer was my point, not players specifically for ETH.
The way some of you want to hire and fire managers we'd end up with old ones coming back in a disguise after going through everyone else available after giving them two months.
Despite the hysteria on the Caf, Amorim won’t be going anywhere soon. It’s pretty clear the club has bought in to him as a long term plan.
Starting to doubt he's the guy. Or atleast that he's come in at the wrong time. Hindsight and all I strongly believe we should've allowed Ruud to see out the season and the have Amorim come in for next season.
Starting Casemiro and Erikson is such a huge mistake to be honest. Also this Maz and Dalot on wingbacks is so, so defensive and boring.
Starting Casemiro and Erikson is such a huge mistake to be honest. Also this Maz and Dalot on wingbacks is so, so defensive and boring.
I’m sorry but this is part of the reason we are where we are.
I was at the game last night, as I am each game, although there are little pockets of conversations saying that he got decisions wrong; the majority of the fans are clear that the issue is the players.
You say sack him, what do we do then? Go out and get Southgate, play defensive, get through the season and then all moan about the negative football and start the cycle again?
I am surprised at how quickly people have turned. Each manager has the same cycle, the hope and then the outright agenda driven pressure. Amorim was the brightest young coach out there, we got him in for his style, let him try to instil it. I don’t for one second think we will be relegated. We will have a poor season (it was poor before he even arrived) but I do believe that we will start to see the style we have all wanted for a long time.
Klopp took 4 years (Liverpool were better than we are now when he took over), arteta is in his 5th year (arsenal were better than we are now)
Stop the pressure for another manager to be sacked, it gets us nowhere.
Amorim has to get this group playing with confidence and intensity somehow, doesn't matter who, be it slow horses like Maguire, Cas and Eriksen or the young bucks like Ugarte and Yoro, the whole team has to play with absolute intensity and be confident, Yesterday's game, Newcastle didn't do anything special in particular, they just played with intensity and confidence, and it seemed they had it easy which is the case since our players can't even bother to work hard in game at OT.
The players are fit, yes they are not great athletes but there are plenty of players who aren't athletes and work their socks off during a game.
Everyone is talking about back 3 and tactics and whatnot, yet the issue is the same as before, these cnuts don't want to work hard as a team, they don't track runners, they don't press, they don't close down an oppo player, you will see one player running hard and the next 2 or 3 players are just watching, zero coordination.
For Amorim, the time of being nice has passed, he has to start going nuclear on these cnuts in press conferences and even hook them off in the first 10 or 15 mins if he has too, select youth players if he has too, these cnuts need a wake up call and they need to realize they are the joke of the league and the worst team.
The players are fit, yes they are not great athletes but there are plenty of players who aren't athletes and work their socks off during a game.
Everyone is talking about back 3 and tactics and whatnot, yet the issue is the same as before, these cnuts don't want to work hard as a team, they don't track runners, they don't press, they don't close down an oppo player, you will see one player running hard and the next 2 or 3 players are just watching, zero coordination.
For Amorim, the time of being nice has passed, he has to start going nuclear on these cnuts in press conferences and even hook them off in the first 10 or 15 mins if he has too, select youth players if he has too, these cnuts need a wake up call and they need to realize they are the joke of the league and the worst team.
You'll be surprised how quickly "long term plans" can change when faced with an existential threat. He needs to start winning games to truly be secure in the job.
Take your head out of the sand.
I think United bought players for the club last Summer was my point, not players specifically for ETH.
I agree with Pogue, this conspiracy theory bollocks does my head in.
EtH had just signed a new contract, why would they be in mind for Amorim, why not just sack EtH in the summer if you’re buying players for Amorim?
It makes literally zero sense what you’re implying
Absolutely!
If we don’t start picking up soon, he’ll be gone, not a chance in hell we risk relegation for some idea of short term pain long term gain.
Are there any potential changes you think would improve things?
I don't see how we score goals. I'm not necessarily advocating for a more attacking lineup, but I would like to see a way of us getting up the pitch and scoring. We seem like a team just going out to get beat at the moment.
If we're less likely to score it's more the Garnacho and Rashford situation than the system, and they're not the answer either.
are we pretending we are looking like we are going down now then? Okay
You’re making a lot of noise about this. So can you actually point to any of the goals that we’ve conceded since Amorim came in being down to the formation we are playing?
Because all I’m seeing is players like Martinez not being able to win headers or not wanting to clear a ball that is heading for goal (Forest). I’m seeing Onana getting lobbed from corners, passing to the opposition or letting in shots that are heading straight for him. I’m seeing Bruno getting sent off for petulance.
I’m seeing midfielders in Case and Eriksen that really don’t have the gas tanks for Premier League football anymore or Mainoo that has come back looking off the pace.
At the other end of the field I’m seeing forwards that don’t have the ability to control the ball and link up play.
How is this system or formation related? Won’t these issues still be there in a 433?
Moyes was also a long term plan, with a six year contract to back it up. The club even released a statement when things weren’t going well backing him and emphasising it’s a long term project. He was gone before the end of the season.
I've slept since the result and performance yesterday and really feel this morning like the situation with Amorim is purely about stick or twist
We want change at this football club, from the top down, and it seems the only way to do that is for us take a real different approach to that "change"
Amorim isn't going to change that much - he has an idea and the backing of the owners. He will die falling on his sword if he has to because to take this group of players and cater to them just to get a few temporary results isn't what he was brought here for, that's clear. He himself said there would be suffering initially. The owners heard this. The players heard this. In terms of an approach and an outlook, you may say that is right, you may say that is wrong, but it's clearly the approach that is being taken. These players are being exposed right now, and I don't feel like Amorim is going to unexpose them by bowing down pressure and doing something he doesn't believe in. He may well be stubborn enough to get the sack eventually, but I don't think he will change either way. If he gets sacked before his "idea" is implemented and succesful then he has license to blame the club and the owners.
I once worked for a company that was making a shift from print to digital media, they brought in a new CEO who was supposed to radicalise the business in a two year plan and make it profitable. No one thought it would work, but he got everyone aligned to the fact that it would. Those who wouldn't align, or didn't believe in it were pushed out. There was a two year period of uncertainty including one where huge multi-million euro losses were made, but the business is now thriving and the CEO is still in place, and the company is celebrated as one of the best digital first product marketplaces in Europe after being all but written off as something as a relic from yesteryear only a few years ago.
This could actually work if we are prepared for short to medium term pain.
We want change at this football club, from the top down, and it seems the only way to do that is for us take a real different approach to that "change"
Amorim isn't going to change that much - he has an idea and the backing of the owners. He will die falling on his sword if he has to because to take this group of players and cater to them just to get a few temporary results isn't what he was brought here for, that's clear. He himself said there would be suffering initially. The owners heard this. The players heard this. In terms of an approach and an outlook, you may say that is right, you may say that is wrong, but it's clearly the approach that is being taken. These players are being exposed right now, and I don't feel like Amorim is going to unexpose them by bowing down pressure and doing something he doesn't believe in. He may well be stubborn enough to get the sack eventually, but I don't think he will change either way. If he gets sacked before his "idea" is implemented and succesful then he has license to blame the club and the owners.
I once worked for a company that was making a shift from print to digital media, they brought in a new CEO who was supposed to radicalise the business in a two year plan and make it profitable. No one thought it would work, but he got everyone aligned to the fact that it would. Those who wouldn't align, or didn't believe in it were pushed out. There was a two year period of uncertainty including one where huge multi-million euro losses were made, but the business is now thriving and the CEO is still in place, and the company is celebrated as one of the best digital first product marketplaces in Europe after being all but written off as something as a relic from yesteryear only a few years ago.
This could actually work if we are prepared for short to medium term pain.
You both have taken 2+2 and got 5.
I’m not claiming they were bought for the new manager. I’m claiming they weren’t exactly bought for the old one either, and that in many respects with one of them being favourite of his (Ugarte, a player ETH seemed not to rate), and two of them being CB’s; well for a man who plays a system with five at the back they actually ended up being more suited to the new manager.
So no conspiracy theory here, I think the club bought players for the club last Summer.