Never say never, people said in 1974 that we were too good to go down but then we went down.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
Never say never, people said in 1974 that we were too good to go down but then we went down.
I won't need to. Not a hope in hell that we are getting relegated - as much as some people on here are willing it to happen.
Yep, relegation discussions are always so mind boggling.
He should be working on shooting drills never mind kidnapping
Folks are almost willing/daring it to happen. It's similar to Gary Neville in commentary worrying about potential red cards/penalties over nothing offences.
I'm actually legit afraid we'll drop into a relegation battle. This never was even a remote thought in the decades of being a United fan.
How times have changed
Just wanted to let you know that this did not go completely unnoticed. I gave a small giggle.
Gone in 60 seconds
I'm actually legit afraid we'll drop into a relegation battle. This never was even a remote thought in the decades of being a United fan.
How times have changed
If we lose to Newcastle and Liverpool we could find ourselves only 2 points above the relegation zone which would make our next game (Saints at home) a 6 pointer
Yep. It's a real possibility if performances don't improve.
We need the recruiters to nail the next two transfer windows. There can be no misses, because I don't see us getting anywhere with a handful of these players.
Just for saying he likes Ruben's car?
Top man
Not a single doubt in my mind he will be the man to make us respectable again if given the tools to do so
A 6 pointer against a team 16 points below us?
I wouldn’t laugh off as an impossibility United being relegated. We all agree there’s a very good chance we’ll avoid relegation, but it’s only a very good chance, not a certainty.
I promise you, we will not get relegated. 100% certainty that we won't.
Fair enough. Are you 100% certain that we will be more than four points from safety?
I’m 98% certain, based on my meticulous calculations of course, that we’ll avoid relegation, but it’s very easy to envision a further downward spiral. We need to start winning games again but there’s no one on the fixture you’d say that’s a sure win right there.
Yeah, we'll be more than four points clear of 18th. No problem. Not that this is anything to brag about of course. Agreed, that we are capable of losing to anyone. However, as bad as we are, you have to be another level of bad to actually go down.
Fun times if we get relegated but win the Europa league. Then get to possibly win the champions league next year from the championship.
Pragmatism is required to get through this period.
Whilst you have to look to the future, you also have to navigate the short term to keep results flowing - otherwise you have no future or faith from the fans.
When Klopp started at Liverpool they were rank, but he kept picking up results (especially at home) to tick along before he could implement the big changes he wanted.
Amorim may well find himself under intense pressure if he keeps losing, so the idea of looking to the future may be a mute point.
Incidentally i think he is a top manager.
Whilst you have to look to the future, you also have to navigate the short term to keep results flowing - otherwise you have no future or faith from the fans.
When Klopp started at Liverpool they were rank, but he kept picking up results (especially at home) to tick along before he could implement the big changes he wanted.
Amorim may well find himself under intense pressure if he keeps losing, so the idea of looking to the future may be a mute point.
Incidentally i think he is a top manager.
If we are going to do this then let's do it. The only thing I have left right now as a Manchester United supporter is patience. This last run of games is no different from the Moyes season or any other manager. Players have continued to let us down on every level.
A fantastic game and they puff their chests out thinking they are the cream. It's then followed by them putting in absolute dog shit effort for the next 8 games, relying on individual moments of talent to compensate for individual pub football feck ups. I feel more thought during the week is spent on the goal celebration then studying the defender they must get past to score the goal.
No killer instinct or chemistry results in a lack of the "run of the mill" goals that put games beyond the opposition. We get a game to 2-2 in the 85th minute after our usual crap game, usually with a former player having a blinder against us, then we have our players celebrating by pointing to their temple, creating the trinity pose or a cringe attempt at the tommy gun. Acting like the match is an historical Premier League classic instead of a lucky draw against a Brentford/Southampton/Crystal Palace etc.
The rest of the game we probably give up two winning opportunities to the other team and end up losing or getting away with something innocuous like a tight offside being called to bail us out for a draw, but the football media will believe it to be an injustice to the game while the club and playing staff say nothing and roll over.
It's been an uphill battle since our pre season slap in the nuts under Moyes. If we were an Italian club we would have been relegated and promoted twice at this point because we truly are a shambles. We deserve to be where we are right now and every person that follows this club needs to acknowledge that and have some fecking patience. We had it with the last six managers but this time the focus of the club seems to be solely on the football while catching up with other big European clubs. Yet here we are playing what some consider six pointers in December. If we finish 12th but have laid some groundwork where's the harm. Let's be realistic. We are joke to the point that conceding directly from a corner twice in a week does not bring a collective chuckle, only a disappointed headshake because it is what we do and have done for over ten years. We are the football equivalent of Alan Partridge instead of being seen as a sleeping giant.
A European cup final goes to penalties were every player on the field takes one and our keeper, who doesn't save from the spot surprises no one and then steps up to miss his penalty. Multiple player of the year awards yet never adapts or improves to the point where he begins to costs us points more than wins them. Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Martinez and the rest are on the same path. We are the comic relief for the sport. Every team seems to have an easily executed plan to beat us. It's never anything special outside of playing their normal game and chances will be put on their plate.
You will feel better by having some patience and letting these changes happen. At this point you just got to say feck it. Fourteenth at the turn of a season with a coach who told us to our faces to accept these results because there is no other way if we want to get out of this quagmire. He explained when he came that the situation or timing was not ideal but it is an opportunity. I feel to put a system in place in a competitive environment instead of a preseason, that should really be about conditioning, is a benefit. Poor results are a medicine worth taking because domestically, nothing is happening for us this season. Starting from scratch on the first team football is not a bad idea. And if we want that new stadium with a world class training complex we need a team that competes and puts us back on the map.
A fantastic game and they puff their chests out thinking they are the cream. It's then followed by them putting in absolute dog shit effort for the next 8 games, relying on individual moments of talent to compensate for individual pub football feck ups. I feel more thought during the week is spent on the goal celebration then studying the defender they must get past to score the goal.
No killer instinct or chemistry results in a lack of the "run of the mill" goals that put games beyond the opposition. We get a game to 2-2 in the 85th minute after our usual crap game, usually with a former player having a blinder against us, then we have our players celebrating by pointing to their temple, creating the trinity pose or a cringe attempt at the tommy gun. Acting like the match is an historical Premier League classic instead of a lucky draw against a Brentford/Southampton/Crystal Palace etc.
The rest of the game we probably give up two winning opportunities to the other team and end up losing or getting away with something innocuous like a tight offside being called to bail us out for a draw, but the football media will believe it to be an injustice to the game while the club and playing staff say nothing and roll over.
It's been an uphill battle since our pre season slap in the nuts under Moyes. If we were an Italian club we would have been relegated and promoted twice at this point because we truly are a shambles. We deserve to be where we are right now and every person that follows this club needs to acknowledge that and have some fecking patience. We had it with the last six managers but this time the focus of the club seems to be solely on the football while catching up with other big European clubs. Yet here we are playing what some consider six pointers in December. If we finish 12th but have laid some groundwork where's the harm. Let's be realistic. We are joke to the point that conceding directly from a corner twice in a week does not bring a collective chuckle, only a disappointed headshake because it is what we do and have done for over ten years. We are the football equivalent of Alan Partridge instead of being seen as a sleeping giant.
A European cup final goes to penalties were every player on the field takes one and our keeper, who doesn't save from the spot surprises no one and then steps up to miss his penalty. Multiple player of the year awards yet never adapts or improves to the point where he begins to costs us points more than wins them. Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Martinez and the rest are on the same path. We are the comic relief for the sport. Every team seems to have an easily executed plan to beat us. It's never anything special outside of playing their normal game and chances will be put on their plate.
You will feel better by having some patience and letting these changes happen. At this point you just got to say feck it. Fourteenth at the turn of a season with a coach who told us to our faces to accept these results because there is no other way if we want to get out of this quagmire. He explained when he came that the situation or timing was not ideal but it is an opportunity. I feel to put a system in place in a competitive environment instead of a preseason, that should really be about conditioning, is a benefit. Poor results are a medicine worth taking because domestically, nothing is happening for us this season. Starting from scratch on the first team football is not a bad idea. And if we want that new stadium with a world class training complex we need a team that competes and puts us back on the map.
If he's a top manager he needs to start giving the fan base some hope. A win tomorrow would certainly do that.
I think he may well have underestimated how crap we are, and the scrutiny that comes with being an United manager.
In principle it's right to suffer short term pain for long term gain - but he'll struggle to implement his vision if he can't pick up results.
I trust in Ruben and look forward to better results to match the better and more controlled performances we have been seeing. We need to beat Newcastle and somehow draw the Liverpool game if possible.
What do you smoke… yes we are poor but relegated? Everyone is so dramatic right now. We did well in some games and started to control them, we did well agaibst City and actually ok against Spurs. Then we had two shit games no idea why but I am sure things will improve again. Just look how many stupid goals we concede
I don't know how we are going to fund the rebuild necessary for Amorim to build a squad that fits his style. Same for any manager that isn't just aiming to squeeze the best out of a poor bunch. We are in a really terrible place.
Promoting talents in our youth team is the only way in these circumstances.
We need to bin off the players on high wages doing nothing and implement a wage structure, then smart recruitment and selling young products at good prices rather than giving them away.
Or of course, If City don't get punished, just cheat.
We can fund it by not spending £60m+ on every player we sign. We need to be smarter and find bargains
Yeah agree.
I also think the points will start coming in soon. Despite everyone piling in on us we're not actually playing that bad. If we can cut the silly individual errors we'll get going. To some extent anyway.
Making smart sales. It's likely the only way. Rashford's going and I've said before, Garnacho has to go as he's no role on this system. Nor is he good enough to be a square peg in a round hole. Those two should fetch £80 million.
I think this is the only way. We need to swap out Rashford for a left wing back. I'd move on Zirkzee whilst he has some value and invest in a better striker.
Yep. The thing is, it's really not that complicated. It's maddening how much of a mess we make of transfers.
Let Zirkzee, Rashford and Garnacho go. We'll barely feel it on the pitch. Then go sign two proven Prem League players with it.
I know FFP doesn't exactly work like that but that's the jist. To get us back in the top four or at least around there really isn't that difficult.
I don’t really get these calls for “pragmatism”. We could line up in any formation, with any combination of players from our squad, and easily lose all three of our next three fixtures. We know that because we’ve seen how poor this lot are in multiple similar fixtures in the past, in multiple different lineups and formations. Plus we’ve no Bruno or Ugarte in the “easiest” of the three.
We all want results to pick up. Amorim most of all. But I’d be disappointed if he gave up on his philosophy and principles to try and half arse a point here and there in games we’ll probably lose regardless. Far better to keep drilling the team in the approach he wants long term so we start to click a little sooner than we would otherwise. Even if we lose all three games. Some of the fans will throw their toys out of the pram but feck those guys. Seriously. I couldn’t give a shit about impatient children, nor should Amorim.
I'm actually legit afraid we'll drop into a relegation battle. This never was even a remote thought in the decades of being a United fan.
How times have changed
As shit as we may currently be, I don’t think we have to worry about picking up 18 points from what’s left. A bottom half finish is on the cards though unless we stop the rot soon. Which without the hyperbolic talk of relegation is still a disaster.
It’s a disaster but no more of a disaster than finishing just outside the European placed. So mid table or bottom half is basically the same. Hence I’d rather Amorim stick to his principles even if we lose our next three games (which I think will happen whatever approach he takes).
I'm keeping Garnacho personally because I think he has the tools (Speed, Stamina) to fit in the system eventually. Rashford i'd move on ASAP as his already low value is dropping every second. I'd also cash in on Zirkzee ASAP while he has any value left. I would also cash in on Bruno, Dalot, Malacia, Antony, Mount, Shaw, Onana, Bayindir and get whatever tiny bit of cash we can from those sales.The rest we have to take losses on. Realistically, we're looking at two seasons of bottom half finishes before a real upturn starts because of how much waste there is in the current squad.
I am rather hopeful to be honest. Of the matches we have won, I've seen evidence of us winning it due to his Amorim's system working rather than purely individual brilliance. Out of the matches we've lost, more often than not it's due to individual mistakes. The last match v.s Wolves would have been a very different game if we manage to convert some of the early possessions and chances into goals. Even late in the game when Wolves had their entire team within their own third of the field the players are still finding ways to break them down and creating chances.
This gives me hope that once the players are more familiar with the systems, and we improve some key positions with good players that fit the system we would be doing much better.
And I'm willing to put up with losing matches for the time being rather than Amorim doing an Erik with "Man Utd can't play the Sporting way", and eventually end up back at Square 1 in a couple of season.
This is actually my biggest grouch with ETH - he gave up his system and way of playing and halfway through last season we were clearly playing with no systems with results going nowhere. I voted to sack him then on the CAF poll and has never changed my vote.
Amorim would quickly lose my confidence if he were to give up on his system and get us playing Ole ball again.
I don't think the board will give him the time needed. Not because he's a bad coach, but the club already burned its fingers once with Ten Hag and that experience will have a negative effect on Amorim.
Further more, Ratcliffe's already is 72 years old. I can imagine he wants to see success in his lifetime or at least want to see some return from his investment.
Further more, Ratcliffe's already is 72 years old. I can imagine he wants to see success in his lifetime or at least want to see some return from his investment.
Seems likes a great personality and character. Very likeable coach.
So far almost everything he says seems spot on, how he handles the media, very charismatic.
As a player, this should be the kind of coach you run through brick walls for. Not sure about our diva's though.
So far almost everything he says seems spot on, how he handles the media, very charismatic.
As a player, this should be the kind of coach you run through brick walls for. Not sure about our diva's though.