You are ignoring just how utter crap Rashford has looksled this season and especially in his few outings under Amorim. So this is not just a mentality thing
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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You are ignoring just how utter crap Rashford has looksled this season and especially in his few outings under Amorim. So this is not just a mentality thing
I won't let anyone gaslight me about United again after the EtH debacle. I'm going to trust my eyes and my eyes see vast improvement. My eyes see progress, my eyes see way way better football and way more control of football games. I'm actually excited to watch us play week in week out again.
What I will say is, he needs to bring in players in key positions quickly and settle the first 11 so we have more stability in that regard. Give this man what he needs and we will truly become a force again. We have good players but some of them aren't starting 11 caliber, they are good squad players but we need elite players in certain positions to fully get to that next level. I'm very optimistic, we definitely picked the right man for the job.
What I will say is, he needs to bring in players in key positions quickly and settle the first 11 so we have more stability in that regard. Give this man what he needs and we will truly become a force again. We have good players but some of them aren't starting 11 caliber, they are good squad players but we need elite players in certain positions to fully get to that next level. I'm very optimistic, we definitely picked the right man for the job.
By first team, you mean:
- Backup GK
- Backup CB
- Makeshift 18 year old CB
- Makeshift LB
- Backup CM
- Lindelof who hasn't played all season
- 38 year old Evans
- Bayinder who hasn't played all year
- Anthony
I don't think so, lack of effort will get him benched but not dropped completely. He wasn't dropped like this prior to City and his effort levels then wasn't too dissimilar
If he's dropped completely like this, I think there's something deeper going on in the background. Maybe Amorim thinks his presence is too disruptive and wants to cut him off? Obviously he wouldn't say this to the media and air out our dirty laundries.
I think the Bournemouth game would be telling, if he is somehow dropped again, then I think he'll continually be dropped until the January window opens and be promptly shipped off first thing in the morning.
If he is reintegrated to the squad, then we might see Amorim use him sparingly to build form for a summer move
Either way, the bridge has been burned. The only question is has it been burnt to ashes or is it still smoldering.
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i don't really understand the questioning of squad rotation for the new manager. how do you expect him to understand the players and how they will play/react in a match situation if he doesn't put them on the pitch? he has to get to know the players and that isn't done as easily in training but in pressure situations against opposition
I'm tired of Rashford - if he wasn't an academy, local lad no one would give two shits about him
I think that only happens if you have an upper management that is not supportive of you.
Ideally, you shouldn't need to grovel back to them if you have the proper support structure, even Ten Hag didn't need to. Those people simply won't be employed anymore and hopefully HR will get someone in that can both get work done and show professionalism
Our squad's fitness and conditioning have been absolutely destroyed by the previous regime, as evidenced by all the muscle injuries over the last few seasons.
Ruben's heavy rotation at this point is completely necessary given this context, so I won't complain about it at all.
Ruben's heavy rotation at this point is completely necessary given this context, so I won't complain about it at all.
Why would an awful united squad make the spurs one any more "first team"?
Don't know why people are moaning about rotation, our players are brittle. The only two who seem to be able to keep up with the load are Bruno and Dalot. Every one else is injury prone or has had injuries previously, so makes sense to rotate them.
That analogy is pretty bad but, sticking with the employment thing, an employer can reward quality and quantity of output. As in, both the effort of what they do and the outcomes that effort achieves. Sales people can get a bonus for the number of calls and the number of sales. It’s completely normal for employees who don’t make the minimum effort required to be called out by their boss. And that’s a separate issue to whether they do their job well when they can be arsed to do it at all.
Getting back to football, effort is the bare minimum expected. And it’s perfectly reasonable to bench players who aren’t putting in the expected effort, whether or not they are more talented than other players picked ahead of them who are meeting expectations in terms of effort.
It is the strongest team that spurs could currently field, no?
Yes but that's missing the point again and trying to narrow the team's problems down to Rashford not putting in enough effort.
The problems are more deep routed than that and saying "this isn't good enough" doesn't work if you don't look at all the things that aren't good enough and apply the same to them.
If you freeze out a player for a lack of effort, or a bad attitude, then, unecessarily pick others who, regardless of the reason, you know won't perform any better. All you are doing is confusing everyone and weakening people's trust in you.
If Amorim is going to be ruthless and uncompromising with standards (which I think is what we need), it has to go across the board. Not "you're nowhere near good enough but you try hard so it doesn’t matter"...that's for school children, not managing a team of elite level athletes.
He can be supportive of players and give them a chance to work and improve of course, but I think in this instance, immediately after the big public who har about dropping players and needing everyone to "suffer" and reach standards that are set, it wasn't the time to do that. It was the time to pick as many players as possible who set or get close to those standards.
Instead it was some half way house where certain players kept their place who could have been rested, and others were replaced with basically the lowest level performers in our squad. I don't get why you play and risk Ugarte over Casemiro but drop Amad for Antony.
Still very much in the impressed by Amorim camp overall but I think he got it wrong last night and missed a chance to positively reinforce his own message.
When a coach is talking about standards it’s normally first and foremost about attitude in training and giving your all to be the best version of yourself. And that’s obviously something rashford isn’t doing at that point - so Amorim is totally right to not select him.
That other players also may have bad performances doesn’t change that. You can’t say an Anthony for example isn’t good enough so therefore Amorim should not select him as he is part of the squad with that Amorim has to work with. As a coach you can’t just say half of the squad isn’t good enough and they won’t play again. Your job is it to make the most out of the potential in front of you. And therefor everyone has to work as hard as possible. I think Amorim handles this perfectly.
I like Marcus but that’s the end of the road for him if he isn’t capable of packing down. He will be our ozil
My bet is that we gonna win Europa League this season with Amorim in charge
I disagree though. You can and should say that - or maybe not so much say it as you wat to try and support your players, but certainly apply it. Otherwise the only criteria you have for improving the standard of your squad is how hard they try. You can fish a bunch of randoms out of the stands who will try extremely hard for £100,000 a week and get you relegated to League 2.
Again this approach works for school children or managing a general group of people doing stuff people are generally capable of doing. These are elite level athletes, paid tens of thousands a week to play for one of the biggest football clubs in the world. It is not unfair at all to expect them to be quite good at football and to have a cut off point of how not good you will tolerate them being. In fact its pretty vital to have this.
Yes Amorim has to work with the players he has, but he has better players than the ones he picked the other night. I can buy that there are mitigating factors like being concerned about fitness levels. There might be all kinds of data in the background or other work he's done with the players that completely explains it, but I don't buy that someone's work rate or attitude is an important standard but their abiliy on a football pitch isn't, and that you can therefore address one and ignore the other.
Im confident too. Unless some cnut Spanish club kicks us out
You have a point that ability is of course also a factor but I think as a first step you have to look at the attitude of the players available. Just make sure that everyone pushes to the limit is a good start.
There will come a point though where Amorim has to make a call and judge who is good enough qualitywise, there you are right of course. And I am sure he will get rid of players that are not good enough in his eyes. But I would imagine he will do this in a more quiet way. I think it’s sensible what he is doing, that’s my point only. If he would trim the squad right now he won’t have enough players. He will wait for the transfer windows to get up the quality.
Exactly why I'm not all that fussed about losses at this time, so long as there's no debacling
He was very transparent about his thinking and plan from the start and growing pains are part of the process of building a winner.
The difference between the hiccups now is that you can see a cohesive vision in place and actually being executed even in the early days.
It will definitely get ugly at times, given the unbalanced squad, but the gaffer deserves patience and time to really mold the squad to his liking.
Honestly the Spurs game was the first time I continued to watch a game after being down 3-0 since Fergie. I don’t know someone it feels different and I knew getting one goal would make it interesting. I loved he went for it even though we were down 3-0 and it worked sort of. Made it entertaining. Losing 4-3 is helluva lot better than losing 3-0, which is what I would expected under Ten Hag.
Dominated.
Since he has arrived at United:
• Arrived to meet a Midtable Manchester United in the Premier League
•Luke Shaw came back from injury and back to injury again (And Mount and Lindelöf)
•Unfavourable Position in the Europa League upon his arrival (thanks to Ruud for +3 points)
•Dan Ashworth left on mutual consent
•Marcus Rashford on the verge of leaving
• Team Leaks
•A very tight and busy Schedule.
• Arrived to meet a Midtable Manchester United in the Premier League
•Luke Shaw came back from injury and back to injury again (And Mount and Lindelöf)
•Unfavourable Position in the Europa League upon his arrival (thanks to Ruud for +3 points)
•Dan Ashworth left on mutual consent
•Marcus Rashford on the verge of leaving
• Team Leaks
•A very tight and busy Schedule.
Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong in that. I think its a bit more tricky when dealing with our squad and its recent history of losing confidence and belief so easily, both in general and in a manager.
As a manager you don't want to be doing anything that fuels the things that tend to trigger the downward spirals. One of which is playing people who the rest of the team has to try and carry, or who's weaknesses get picked off by even average opponents. Its a league cup game and in the right situation is when you can actually take those sort of risks because its of less improtance. I just don't think we're in that moment with Amorim or as a team.
We're in a moment where setting a consistent bar for the players is IMO very important, because it changes the narrative from whether they want to believe in the manager to whether they are good enough to play for him. It gives them a target to set themselves against and in time builds their confidence, because they know if they are in the team its because they are good enough to be there and not just because they didn't play in the last game. But it doesn't work if that all goes out the window within a week to serve up a comedy show.
Its a fair point that it risks trimming the squad, but its weighing up the benefit and risks of resting players. With the mental fragility of our squad, arguably losing a league cup game will have a much bigger impact on the next league performance (and performances after that, and subsequent attitudes in training, etc.) than which players you rest.
last game against City under ten Hag: 26% possession (Wembley)
first game against City under Amorim: 48% possession (away)
last game against Spurs under ten Hag: 39% possession (home)
first game against Spurs under Amorim: 54% possession (away)
sure, there's individual factors that influence these games that make them difficult to compare, but on paper, that is a seismic shift ... during the season no less, with a packed schedule. Impressive.
first game against City under Amorim: 48% possession (away)
last game against Spurs under ten Hag: 39% possession (home)
first game against Spurs under Amorim: 54% possession (away)
sure, there's individual factors that influence these games that make them difficult to compare, but on paper, that is a seismic shift ... during the season no less, with a packed schedule. Impressive.
Exactly why I'm not all that fussed about losses at this time, so long as there's no debacling
He was very transparent about his thinking and plan from the start and growing pains are part of the process of building a winner.
The difference between the hiccups now is that you can see a cohesive vision in place and actually being executed even in the early days.
It will definitely get ugly at times, given the unbalanced squad, but the gaffer deserves patience and time to really mold the squad to his liking.
Yeah I don't disagree with that from a tactical perspective. The clarity and consistency of how we set up and try to play is a really big positive for me.
City game was a good example of the early benefits. Its been a long time since we can play relatively poorly and still look disciplined enough to deserve to win a game at the same time.
A similar level of performance under ETH would mean the opposition having about 25 shots on our goal and our players all looking physically dead for the last 20 minutes due to chasing shadows all game.
The difference is we indulged ETH and bought half the Dutch league, As a club if we mean business then we should make three marquee signings in January that both help him with his system. We should sell Garnaucho who offers nothing in this system, Rashford, Antony and Eriksen this January, I’d sell Malacia too but we won’t because he’s just come back from injury. We should get £120m for all of them with Garnaucho fetching £60m or half of that.
We need to make sure we get either
V Gyokeres or V Osimhen at number 9(£60m) , Ederson or if limited money go get Pogba on a 18 month contract and A Gomes for £5m as his contract ends on the summer and we need a proper left wing back like Alt Nouri or N mendiz. For £40-45m.
I think Pogba could be awful but he’s got a massive point to prove, knows the club and played his best football for Juventus in a 343 or 3421. For nothing and £120-140k per week he’s worth the punt?
We need to make sure we get either
V Gyokeres or V Osimhen at number 9(£60m) , Ederson or if limited money go get Pogba on a 18 month contract and A Gomes for £5m as his contract ends on the summer and we need a proper left wing back like Alt Nouri or N mendiz. For £40-45m.
I think Pogba could be awful but he’s got a massive point to prove, knows the club and played his best football for Juventus in a 343 or 3421. For nothing and £120-140k per week he’s worth the punt?
Pogba? You’re having a laugh. He doesn’t give a shit about this club. Should never have brought him back last time - Fergie was right. No way will we sign him.
It’s weird that there seem to be so few decent striker options around. I’d take Gyokeres but only for the right price. Osimhen I’m not convinced with, plus he doesn’t seem to be taking his career seriously by moving to the Turkish league when he should be heading into his prime.
It’s weird that there seem to be so few decent striker options around. I’d take Gyokeres but only for the right price. Osimhen I’m not convinced with, plus he doesn’t seem to be taking his career seriously by moving to the Turkish league when he should be heading into his prime.
Let's forget about Rashford, whether he stays or he leaves doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't impact how this team is currently playing. Back to Amorim, I support his rotation. By rotating the players, he can see the players are taking notes on how the position should be played, are they following the philosophy, how they cope with phases of the game, what is the effort when we are down or up. When the season is over, he can do a full review on who he will keep and who will be sold. Frankly speaking, I am only keeping Amad, Ugarte, Bruno, Yoro Mazrouai, maybe Mainoo based on their current performance and potential. Everyone else is on the chopping block.
It's the middle of the season and if we only picked players who are good enough to play for united we'd be fielding a team of around 7 players.
He has no choice but to use players who aren't good enough because that's what he's inherited, otherwise it'll be like ten hags first season were key players were ran into the ground.
Long term you are right ability matters but in the context of right now they are completely different. If you can't be arsed giving 100% when you've got a clean slate under a new manager you are rightly being shown the door.
He has managed to make a team that looked so mentally week, to feel like giants. You can tell that no matter who they play, no matter the score, they never lose hope.
His system is clear to see, and it outlines the deficiencies in most players we have. We need better LWB, as Dalot is often placed in a situation 1 v 1 when we create an overload on the right, and switch the game with a diagonal. However, we need a player there that can drible and cross. Dalot ain't it. We have more possession and we concede less clear cut chances. The fact that most goals we conceded were due to individual errors tell you that it's not the system.
I can not wait and see what Amorim can do with some better players. The signs are positive.
His system is clear to see, and it outlines the deficiencies in most players we have. We need better LWB, as Dalot is often placed in a situation 1 v 1 when we create an overload on the right, and switch the game with a diagonal. However, we need a player there that can drible and cross. Dalot ain't it. We have more possession and we concede less clear cut chances. The fact that most goals we conceded were due to individual errors tell you that it's not the system.
I can not wait and see what Amorim can do with some better players. The signs are positive.
Let's not forget Amorim hasn't even had a preseason to train his team, let alone bring in a single player, yet the progress is there.
Give him one full transfer window and a preseason for training, and this guy will have us challenging for the title.
Imagine what Amorim could have done with £646m and three transfer windows, which Ten Hag had..
Give him one full transfer window and a preseason for training, and this guy will have us challenging for the title.
Imagine what Amorim could have done with £646m and three transfer windows, which Ten Hag had..
If he can make the team functional and not playing counter attack and insha allah, i dont think he needs 600m.... even half of that seems to be more than enough. Which is sad. Why did we keep Ten Hag before sacking him early in the season, I never know. I would argue Mc Tominay would have been a good option to have as well in his team. We are approaching Klopp/Pep team level of hardwork from the players and its really good to see.
No matter how many times Amorim explains it, a scattering of cafites still can't wrap their head as to why there's so much rotation right now. It's not difficult.
There is no pre-season. Every player is expected to be fit enough to run a lot, press a lot and have higher physical standards. Since they can't train because they're playing every three days, as many players as possible have to get minutes in the first-team so that everyone can be up to speed with the physical demands of Amorim's system as soon as humanly possible. The only way to do this is with heavy rotation immediately and sacrifice some early results in favour of the collective. Furthermore, since it's difficult to get time on the training ground to do tactical work, fringe players must get their fair share of minutes too so that they can get that work in where they can't get it in training.
There is no pre-season. Every player is expected to be fit enough to run a lot, press a lot and have higher physical standards. Since they can't train because they're playing every three days, as many players as possible have to get minutes in the first-team so that everyone can be up to speed with the physical demands of Amorim's system as soon as humanly possible. The only way to do this is with heavy rotation immediately and sacrifice some early results in favour of the collective. Furthermore, since it's difficult to get time on the training ground to do tactical work, fringe players must get their fair share of minutes too so that they can get that work in where they can't get it in training.
This video sums up the improvement under Ruben. Its night and day in just a few weeks. If our attack was half decent we wouldn't be having such mixed results
Based on his experience I doubt if he has ever seen transfer budgets come even close to 25% of ours.
He would have shot his wad, spazed out and landed overnight at the local infirmary if he saw those numbers presented.
I even think he’s going to fix that awful way Utd have of announcing the Utd line up on social media
I was driving to work yesterday morning and the sports news came on, the result wasn’t announced it was “Amorim denies Spurs defeat was of Rashfords absence “ Amorim must be shit sick of the Rashford United questions.
Premier League doing another AMA on Ruben Amorim on their Twitter - that seems obsessive already. I honestly doesn't remember, but I don't think there was as much public pressure on Pep or Klopp when they first came to Premier League? The current obsession on Ruben seems unhealthy.