We played 4231 for basically the entirety of ETH’s time in charge.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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We played 4231 for basically the entirety of ETH’s time in charge.
It's always easier to be positive after a win than a loss.
But we have City away next. Even in their current form I think that'll go the way of the Arsenal away. Solid defensively, very little threat and a fairly comfy but not "that" bad a loss, compared to some we've had there.
But there's so many teams we're just not better than right now, especially away.
I could as easily see us come 14th as 6th.
Absolute nonsense…
So you are saying there was no change in set up between the end of his first season… and start of his second?
When Casemiro was all by his lonesome….. Mount clearly bought as a second 10 to play alongside Bruno… full backs playing inverted… and wingers pinned to the touch lines.
Yeh, those set ups were a carbon copy of each other
I rather he stick with his philosophy and not look for short term success. Half of these players are average. We unfortunately need another overhaul.
I don’t know what the consensus is right now, but I like the system. I can see the vision. The mistakes and decision making is crippling us right now though, but we’re getting sustained periods where we play with intensity and we look dangerous. Dare I say it, reminiscent of what we used to be with the way we pin teams back.
The issues are mistakes, slow tempo at times, poor decision making and execution. But in the periods it clicks, I do like what I see.
The issues are mistakes, slow tempo at times, poor decision making and execution. But in the periods it clicks, I do like what I see.
I’m saying what was in my post. The clue was in the words I used. We’ve been basically playing 4231 for the entirety of ETH’s time in charge. Apart from the occasional experiment with a midfield diamond and maybe 2 or 3 games with a false nine.
I don't think wine airways been mentally weak. This has been apparent don't Ralf too over from Ole and we had a brief respite during ETHs first season.
It's like a switch, confidence and results brings more confidence and results.... and the reverse brings the opposite. It's hard to change from perennial also rans to competitors just like it's hard to do the reverse.
I like you are slightly nervous at the back 3. I really don't like it as a rule, and very few teams successfully play it - probably for a reason. Most players are way more comfortable with a back 4 for starters, there's very few players who are quality wing backs too.
Also we're very winger heavy, and they don't always perform well in their actual position. Expecting them to play inside or as wing backs is a really big ask.
However, you don't bring a promising foreign coach who has been bossing his league in, then try to impose a system on him, so we wait and hope for better. It's only a tiny handful of games after all. It very likely won't get any better away to City either.
For sure. But started earlier I think... Always was worried when this golden boy thing with Rashford took on momentum. I think, what the tweets say may very well be the case. Some of them might think they have made it already as they are at United, getting paid handsomely and live the life of a football superstar. Then they may see how some of the players handle themselves that are here for some time, Rashford, Shaw... It is only guessing as we simply can't know those things but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that there are some pretty problematic group dynamics in place.
The tactics changed a lot but the 'starting formation' (to the classic definition) didn't.
I don’t know why anyone would have issues with the formation at this point in time. We kept a cohesive shape vs Arsenal for the most part, especially the first half.
Today we were evidently the better team, but our players are prone to mistakes. We are also lacking in physical presence and quality. Weirdly, I thought today was one of the few times this season where we “felt” like a dominant side. Game was largely played in Forest’s half, and we had like +70% possession.
The system has us actually looking like a “team”, we’re just lacking the quality. In contrast, with Ten Hag - I never felt like we looked like a team, but rather relied on individual moments. If that makes sense.
Not sure whether we are really winger heavy. The notable ones in the recent past are way more in the wing forward mould than anything else, Martial, Rashford, Garnacho, Antony, Martial, Greenwood - even Sancho could be placed there. On the other hand you have Amad (probably) and Daniel James. Those are wingers who see their objective to facilitate for others. This imbalance is a problem since quite some time.
Our players don't really work as wingbacks at the minute, because the wingers are more used to be wing forwards - maybe one of the reasons that Amad is the only player who seems to work to a degree there. The fullbacks we have are not really suited to wingback roles as well given they are rather shit in the attacking department. If we brought in a player like Frimpong or Davies, we'd benefit whatever the system is. I am crying out for attacking fullbacks since forever but for some reason the fanbase clings on key-pass-Shaw and Dalot for some reason.
Regardless of how sky sports or TNT put their line ups on screen at the start of games… the systems deployed in ETHs first and second season were chalk and cheese.
He went from a mid block, compact double pivot, with overlapping FBs, and inside wide forwards, with us mainly playing on the counter. To a solo 6, wide winger, unlapping FB model, playing an attempted but terribly executed high press.
It’s why I view ETHs time so badly…. Because the only time of significant progress he achieved was having a to play a pragmatic system he didn’t like after getting spanked in his opening 2 PL games, which actually turned out to suit us really well… to then change it completely after he had another full transfer window to system that never worked once.
The only consistent run of games in that first year system recently were under Ruud. And surprise surprise, we looked miles better for it.
What's the chances we can get in a LWB and technical attacking midfielder in Jan?
Maybe smart loan deals?
Maybe smart loan deals?
He's still dealing with a woeful attack. Compared to what Ole had its crazy really.
I think we do look like a better team with a structure already, but its such early days. It's tragic already seeing people slagging him off and losing hope.
I think we do look like a better team with a structure already, but its such early days. It's tragic already seeing people slagging him off and losing hope.
First names on the team sheet: Amad, Mazraoui, Ugarte, De Ligt, Yoro. The rest can feck off.
We need these steps back to go forward.
Its still a 4-2-3-1.
Amad is not a wingback he is a winger. He has a starting position. He's also been our best player in the role given.
Mazraoui is a rcb his presence pushes Amad up, he defends wide and centre like an inverted wingback alongside two proper CBS and then a left wingback making it a 4 at the back.
Up top your left 10 also drifts wide and provides crosses amad on the right 10 in the middle striker up top there's your 3-1.
The difference is in our way of playing and how we use the ball. It's the foundation.
The formation itself provides great pitch coverage and patterns of play plus a solid base for possession.
He has our strikers scoring goals, our players owning possession of the ball, and the only real cause for concern is individual errors and set pieces. Set pieces can wait as they did for Klopp who conceded countless set pieces while trying to get Liverpool playing his way.
Individual errors are solved by drilling the team. He has a system to teach players the tactics, one team plays one team trains in rotation until they master it, once that starts to happen the team will improve.
I suppose it was too much to hope for a New Manager Bounce
I'm optimistic about him, but next summer's transfer window is the key. EtH left a squad so poor that if we don't make significant improvements in said transfer window, we will continue to flounder regardless of our managers quality.
In the past decade plus, we've barely signed any press resistant players. We've filled our squads with technically deficient weaklings that even the best managers would struggle to get a tune out of, and it's resulted in us playing some horrendous stuff. If we continue to do the same, Amorim will most likely see the same fate as the others.
This is where we need to see our new structure under INEOS come into play. Identify these players, bring them in, and give Amorim the best possible chance of succeeding here. Let's say Amorim is the real deal. That's still only half the battle. We've seen how just two players of this ilk in Mazraoui and Amad have had such a positive effect on us. Continue adding these players and we will inevitably get better.
In the past decade plus, we've barely signed any press resistant players. We've filled our squads with technically deficient weaklings that even the best managers would struggle to get a tune out of, and it's resulted in us playing some horrendous stuff. If we continue to do the same, Amorim will most likely see the same fate as the others.
This is where we need to see our new structure under INEOS come into play. Identify these players, bring them in, and give Amorim the best possible chance of succeeding here. Let's say Amorim is the real deal. That's still only half the battle. We've seen how just two players of this ilk in Mazraoui and Amad have had such a positive effect on us. Continue adding these players and we will inevitably get better.
Getting plenty of criticism from some pundits and keyboard warriors why I don't know because others have performed a lot worse than him.
I agree, we look definitely better organized then before. Players most likely haven't really fully grasped their roles and some of them aren't ideal fits for some of the roles but overall, it is rather encouraging than discouraging.
Not sure I'd sign that. We had more of the ball because Forrest led with two goals at some point so obviously was going to sit deeper. Yes, we were able to put the pressure on them over spells but certainly not all the time. Also not sure why we would have been the better side. We gave away 3 goals and a few chances and it wasn't like we missed a couple of sitters or were robbed by the ref. Both teams did okay in a cagey match with one team edging it at the end.
That has been the case since Mourinho and especially apparent during Oles time. With ETH, I think he suffered from the players not understanding or not being able to make his system work. Whether that was down to the system, the communication or the players, I don't know or care, prbably a bit of both. Amorim is supposed to put much emphasis on organisation, workrate, intensity and the creation of good(!) chances, not shots from 30m away. Whether he succeeds, we'll see, I definitely like the direction we are making, lets see whether he can keep his course.
Would only cover over the cracks had it happened anyway. The New Manager is getting a full and clear look at the situation now.
I think the confidence is so low in this team - felt even by the crowd at OT tonight - that any manager would struggle to affect the game positively. At least he makes his changes relatively early in the second half compared to EtH and Ole. He is trying to proactive, but this team has been in a deep hole for the better part of 15 months. It's going to take a while for any manager to build up confidence. He is building a style that is already clearly visible. We don't have to consider him a messiah, but a little belief would be nice.
You know, I was going to throw a thousand dollars on a gaming laptop this weekend so that I could play FIFA again, but today's defeat just saved me the dough
. I'm going to wait until United are consistently good again.
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Amad defensively hasn't been an issue except maybe like once since Amorim's come in.
I generally agree with what you're saying and understand where it comes from, but I think we have a much better chance to get something at the Etihad, compared to the Emirates. Arsenal are not only overall a much better team than City right now in my opinion, but they also bullied us physically midweek. One of City's struggles is that their team also has a bad physical level right now. Pep has tried to solve that in a few games like vs Liverpool, but also seemingly ignored it in others, when the issues have been glaring.
If we manage to be as compact vs City as we were against Arsenal, then I think we can get something out of that game, maybe even a win...because one, City won't bully us with their physicality, two, we'll be able to reach their box much more frequently than against Arsenal IMO.
Like I say, I am hopeful for the Amorim system. It clearly works with the right personnel… but I think we are a way off having that. There are a few who I think suit it. I actually like Amad as a wingback. And Mazraoui as a rcb… the wide cbs have massively responsibility in this system in terms covering wide areas defensively, and playing penetrating pass in possession. I think we massively missed the latter today.
However, with a never fit shaw, and a very immobile Martinez, I think we look very suspect defensively on the other side from wide areas. We also have no natural lwb that I can see.
I also think you get a hell of a lot more out of rashford, Garnacho and probs amad too if they had traditional overlapping fbs taking a man away.
But hey ho, let’s see how it goes.
It’s not really debatable though. It was evident by the eye test, and every significant metric, scoreline aside, corroborates what I’m saying. Mind that I’m not saying this was a vintage 07-08 United performance. I’m simply saying we were the better team - and it wasn’t just from Forest went two up. After they scored their first goal, we dominated. And the same happened in the second half.
We conceded incredibly dumb goals, but we had twice their xG, +70 possession, over twice the number of shots on target, same for passes, and their half of the pitch had the highest percentile for concentration of play. There’s really no arguing.
We just didn’t have the quality; see Dalot
Yeah I'm not stressed about it and it will be very satisfying to watch if he manages to coach us at least half way out of our current malaise by the summer.
I wouldn't have said no to a little winning spree first though - would have bought him some time too.
He hasn't adapted the formation. He's just had players doing different things in it. Like against Bodo, Malacia was overlapping with Garnacho going inside then after the sub Garnacho was on the outside with Dalot underlapping.
Same formation but he'll make tweaks to it depending on who's playing. Like against Everton where Rashford was getting beyond Zirkzee whereas against Bodo it was Hojlund who was the furthest forward.
Disagree. The pivotal period was the players not having Mou, then instead of someone coming in and making it clear the attitude and performances had not been good enough, they got Ole who never stopped protecting them and bigging them up. The damage his tenure has done, when you think about how it compounds and the time it takes for attitudes to change, is monumental. Everyone know he was not good enough, AND he tried to copy SAF’s latter years role so did very little actually in terms of leading coaching. It’s honestly a disgrace the more you think of it.
You’re just remembering things with rose tinted glasses. We got outplayed regularly but could counter well and few teams could press when Ole came in. We also spent a shit load on players who have caused issues for Ragnick and ETH and now Amorim.
Agreed entirely. Mental fortitude was not the issue under Ole. Lack of midfield recruitment and switching tactics in his final season did him in.
I agrees with this, I do see what we’re trying to implement and for parts of a game we can look like we know what we’re doing but we need to be ruthless with the players who are always making the mistakes and bad decisions.
The main reason for that was how frequently we started off playing unbelievably badly for the opening 15-20 minutes. It was so weird. Happened again and again and again.
His dip in form has coincided with his shift to playing as a No. 10.
Just look at the tactical tweak Amorim made against Bodo/Glimt, where he instructed Garnacho to stay wide on the touchline while Dalot operated in more central pockets. The immediate impact was undeniable.
Now, I’m not suggesting he’s the long-term solution in that role, and I do believe we still need a proper left wing-back. But, in the meantime, experimenting with him there could be worth considering. There's no harm in trying it until we get the right personnel.
In my personal opinion an eyetest will always be subjective but when you think we were better, I'll accept that.
I think there is quite some room to argue. Who the "better" team is, is dependent on what metrics you think are important. We have twice the xg because of Hojlunds goal was from 5m with an open goal. It goes for 0.8 on understand, which is half of our 1.65 overall. Without that, it is fairly even - especially given that Hojlunds goal did originate from a squandered chance of 0.4. Thats 1.2 from one scene with the biggest chunk down to fortunate luck. The other metrics aren't too convincing in my eyes as well - as I said, when you have a lead, you can afford to stay a little deeper and defend compactly. Of course this will lead to the other team coming closer to your goal. But as long as this doesn't end up in high quality chances for the opponent (which it didn't for us) how can it be an achievement for the attacking side? How is the number of passes and achievement?
But lets agree to disagree on this.
I agree.
I'd add the Ronaldo signing to the fatal mistakes in his final season as well.
It's impossible to be organized out of possession with too many passengers who can't press well, or are just too lazy to do so, like Ronaldo, Pogba, Greenwood, and Rashford.
And you can't become a modern day elite team in possession either with the likes of De Gea, Varane and AWB doing the build-up.
Looking back at the squad we had back then and the positions we finished in Ole's two full seasons, I have to say we overachieved. We had good attacking talent and depth in that department (Rashford, Martial, Cavani, Pogba, Greenwood, Bruno), but otherwise that squad was light years away from competing.
He's been given an impossible job here. It's all well and good to say "he needs an entire new squad" but he's had absolutely no time to work with what he's got. This seasons failure is entirely on INEOS and their decision to keep Ten Hag. Amorim has come in to a side floundering in the bottom half of the table, with all of our most difficult away fixtures still to play and a heavily congested period of fixtures right off the bat.
The entire season is now riding on us winning the Europa league.
The entire season is now riding on us winning the Europa league.
I think Ole protected his players in public, but that wasn't the case behind closed door IMO.
‘Stick to the plan’