I can understand you feeling apprehension, however still think there should be a little excitement
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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I can understand you feeling apprehension, however still think there should be a little excitement
Didn’t he have a massive meltdown when ETH played him LB against Liverpool extra time FA cup?Antony's defensive stats from FBref. Would he make a really good Amorim LWB like Nuno Santos?
I think you are misusing these stats a little.Antony's defensive stats from FBref. Would he make a really good Amorim LWB like Nuno Santos?
They are purely saying he does these things more often, in absolute terms, than other wingers/attackers, right? Not how well he does them, or his actual success rates etc - there is no indication he would be a good wing back from these stats alone.
Journalists say alot of things, the proof is generally in the pudding.
Amorim has never had that profile and the two profiles you described are 2 different type of players anyway.
Did they not play for Chelsea and Spurs respectively? They talk alot of shite but they did play at the top level
His career here and at the top level is on the ropes, if RA tells him that's the only way he gets into the team he will give it a try. This period on the bench and ETH getting the sack must have been very humbling experiences for him.
It all depends, Wingback and LB are two different roles and this is also an exciting period to be involved with tye club and that euphoria might just catch on to Antony, who must surely be worried about his career at this club, in this league or at this level. If he leaves he is going to Turkey, Holland or Saudi Arabia. I think he will take any lifeline offered to him now.
He did, but the situation at the time may have been a contributing factor there rather than just the fact he was asked to play fullback. Antony had had such a tough season (both on and off the field) with barely any bright moments at all, but he came off the bench in that game and was finally having a good match. Obviously scored the equaliser, and his all-round play was also good. There was likely a small part of him hoping that this might have been the turning point for him, having such a positive impact in such an important game. Then not too much later he's moved to fullback instead, which must have been a punch in the gut for him. Being so visibly unhappy about it wasn't a good look but I think it's somewhat understandable. The important thing was that after the original complaints he went to fullback and tried his best there and, from memory, continued having quite a good game.
In saying that, a similar thing happened in a different match (against Arsenal I think) which was less understandable.
Of course, a wingback role in Amorim's system is likely going to be quite different than a fullback role.
That's all good but we don't have world class full backs or wingers. So for a set of current players, I don't have any particularly strong feelings about having to downgrade someone to a WB status. But having said that, we don't have many world class players in any position so god knows what the new manager will be able to achieve.
Why is yet another manager talking about playing like SAF? We really need to let the ghost of Fergie go.
Who said Amorim wants to play like SAF?
He spoke about the spirit of Fergie didnt he? Not playing like him? We do need that attitude. We played like a bunch of quitting losers under Ten Hag, no resilience or fight.
He said we have been playing in SAF's shadow (imitating his tactics and wing based approach) rather than his spirit (win at all costs, never give up). Which I think is a perfectly astute observation.
Without those red circles I wouldn't have had a clue what was going on.This photo is crazy.
This is all it is until a ball is kicked and reality kicks in!
Who said he's a manager either
It’s not about what we have, it’s about what we’re building. In such a system, I see it as either more defensive, or a system with two subpar players in the team. Even if they are not subpar, they are made to be by a role that limits any particular prowess they may have - which is asking a great forward to defend too much or a great defender to attack too much.
Case in point can literally be seen on this page where a player who has been considered a failure in Antony is now suddenly seen as a viable option because the job has changed from winger to wing back. There’s a home in a team for average players with this role, certainly in a way that there isn’t if you just played with a full back and a winger.
Also, for continuity sake - it’s a weird formation and what happens if we sack this manager in a year? Do we now need to go and find another needle in a haystack 343 manager on the market? Or do we have to see these wing backs as they are neither good enough to play full back or winger for the next manager? What about our youth teams? Do we start developing wing backs now? After all, the message seemed to be about developing some sort of club ‘game model’, and as old school as it sounds - this is just not Manchester United’s, for me.
I believe that is not the idea under Amorim´s tactics.
In an obviouly different scale (clubs and leagues are very different) I can give you the example of what happened in Sporting.
When we were champion in 2021 (after a 19 years drough), Nuno Santos was one of our wingers/10´s, playing most of the matches in the starting 11. He was ahead of Trincão, for instance.
This year he was (until the injury) in our starting 11 as a wingback. For Sporting standards he was far from being a "failed player".
Quenda is a 17 y.o. wonder kid that has been a very successful winger all his (short) career. Both in the youth Sporting and national teams. He has always been THE player to watch and he is already being called for the Portuguese national (A) team.
Amorim started using him this year with the Sporting first 11 as a wingback since the beginning of the season. Only and always as a wingback. He has been a very consistent and valuable player in the team and that is why all eyes are on him for a big transfer in the near future.
None of them are failed players (and there are other examples). Are they world class ? Nuno Santos def. no; Quenda will most likely be. But world class players don´t stay in Sporting for long. We produce them but can´t afford keeping them.
My issue is, what is a ‘world class wing back?’ I’m not saying that everyone who plays as a WB will of course be average or rubbish, but I do wonder whether they would be optimised.
Liverpool could easily choose to play Salah as a wing back, for example, and that would be, by definition - a world class player playing at wing back. My point is, it is very unlikely to be the best position for a world class player, my view is that their prowess would always be limited by the role.
Take Quenda. He has, as you say, always been a fantastic prospect as a young winger. He’s been compared to Rafael Leao. If he genuinely becomes that good, he would instantly be in the wrong position, surely? Would you want Rafael Leao playing as a winger or a wing back? I can’t see players like Vinicius, Salah, Leao, Mbappé playing wing back. I can see players like Antony playing there. I can see a player like Shaw playing there even, who is a world class left back with good offensive qualities, but when relied upon as the primary wide threat, I’m not sure they look as good anymore. He’s a supplementary offensive option. But Rashford is going to score you 30 goals from the left (figuratively speaking).
I understand what you mean: a wingback will never "stand out" the same way a pure winger is. He will not have so many goals, he will not be dribbling as much, etc.
But you have to decide what is best for your team, and the players have to adapt to that and not be only concerned with the spotlight they have when they score. The don´t become worse players because of that - quite the contrary.
I know very well Rafael Leão (also a product of our academy) and he does not have the mindset of Quenda (not even at his current age - 25yo). He could never be a good wingback because he switches of quite easily. I believe Quenda will be much better than Leão and he will be able to always play the role the team needs, either as wingback, winger or even false 9 as he sometimes did in the youth national team. Players only get better when they know how to play for the team and that is one of the main things Amorim brought to Sporting.
Another example is Nuno Mendes (now at PSG). He was a young 17 yo FB when Amorim called him for the first team and started using him as a wingback. Nowadays he plays at the national team either as wingback, FB, LCB or even winger, depending on the game and the coaches always use him as a starter (both at PSG and Portugal national).
Those are the players you want for the team
But you have to decide what is best for your team, and the players have to adapt to that and not be only concerned with the spotlight they have when they score. The don´t become worse players because of that - quite the contrary.
I know very well Rafael Leão (also a product of our academy) and he does not have the mindset of Quenda (not even at his current age - 25yo). He could never be a good wingback because he switches of quite easily. I believe Quenda will be much better than Leão and he will be able to always play the role the team needs, either as wingback, winger or even false 9 as he sometimes did in the youth national team. Players only get better when they know how to play for the team and that is one of the main things Amorim brought to Sporting.
Another example is Nuno Mendes (now at PSG). He was a young 17 yo FB when Amorim called him for the first team and started using him as a wingback. Nowadays he plays at the national team either as wingback, FB, LCB or even winger, depending on the game and the coaches always use him as a starter (both at PSG and Portugal national).
Those are the players you want for the team
It gets much warmer in my freezer!
Great post! Look forward to how Amorim can transform some first teamers or youth prospects into multi-role performers.
But which is which!?
How offensive can you get?
Yeah get what you mean. It is a bit of a worry but at the same time as fans we're probably quite inexperienced in how it works given few managers play that way.
I guess you have to look at the whole. Your wingback won't be as good as a winger but them you have two No.10's on the pitch. Which should balance it out.
It is more about ego isn't it? If someone says to Rashfors or Garnacho, play wing back, they will take it as a knock to their ego.
However; in the Amorim system, the wing backs could get alot of goals, especially the one side which we chose to have a more attacking one.
The main thing is they would have to defend, which is the issue with most attackers, they dont want to.
But I have seen Arsenal with Saka and Martinelli play 6 at the back with both of them in the last line of defence at times.
Surely, if you put your ego to one side, wing back could be quite good as they will be space to run in, chances to create goals and also run 1 v 1 against players.
This is not a completely new system as it has been used for ages. Brazil in 02 were using a similar system and they weren't taking wingers like Salah and playing them wingback, you remember their fabled R3? A player like Salah would be playing in one of the roles behind the striker.
If you look at Brazil they had Roberto Carlos and Cafu as their wing backs but at their clubs these were world clubs fullbacks. When Tuchel won the CL with Chelsea he was using a similar system and did he put players like Hazard (if he was still there) at wingback?
If you look at Klopp's system at Liverpool it had similar traits. Salah and Mane were the wing forwards, the difference being that Firmino was deployed to feed them not the other way round. Arnold and Robertson were pretty much wingbacks in that team and he had Milner, Fabinho and Henderson as workhorses to cover gaps left by the wide backs. The only difference here is that one of the midfielders is a defender.
If you look at his player preference for the wide CBs you will see that he reportedly demands a lot of technical quality as they would be the ones tasked with build up duties. I also wouldn't worry about adaptability of the players to the system, look at Pedro Porro who played wingback for him. Suggestions of Antony being converted to a WB are more to with the desire to make the best out of a bad signing so that we at least get some use out of him.
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Yeah definitely.
Problem is as you say our wide players do have that ego. Garnacho it would be a hard sell to. Rashford no chance(and probably rightly so at this point in his career). We saw Antony have a full sulk when asked to play fullback for 20 mins.
On top of that it's probably the one position that is new to a player, requires some learning. It's not like they grow up, come through the youth teams, with that position being a thing.
It'll be interesting this. Interesting to see if it works when you haven't just got the best set of players that maybe overrides tactics etc.
This is disingenuous because it's comparing him against other wingers, not full backs or wing backs which would force his stats down the percentiles signifcantlyAntony's defensive stats from FBref. Would he make a really good Amorim LWB like Nuno Santos?
Well yes because he played as a winger for us 99% of the time. As such his defensive contributions are significant. So his transition to a wing back could make sense
Very.
This year Sporting numbers:
PT League: 11 games, 11 victories: 39-5 in goals;
Champions league: 4 games, 3 w, 1d; 9-2 in goals
Yep, well the thing is this manager can easily say.. Garnacho, you play wing back or you dont get into the system. He isn't technical enough to play in any other position.
Rashford, I agree no chance but he can play the 9 which helps him get in the team somehow.
Yes, they dont train when growing up but you can easily get players to train on that, Garnacho is 20, he isn't some experienced player.
The thing is, Amorim can say to the players not willing to adapt, you have had 2/3 years playing in your preferred position / system and they got the manager sacked by being so poor.
Thereafter, if the teams starts winning football games, they will stop moaning and either buckle up or leave.
Lets be honest Garnacho is not going to go anywhere better than United and start, its going to be a big downgrade.
He will effectively be playing as a winger.
If that happens, we'll see how much power the players truly have in this club under this new INEOS leadership.
Ideally, it should not be a concern for Amorim at all, he'll have a vision of how he wants to play, have a list of players he wants to keep and positions he wants to strengthen and have the upper management fulfill them. Let Wilcox, Ashworth and co sort out the ins and outs. Don't burden Amorim with dressing room politics
And if they couldn't offload the unwanted players, they could always sit on the bench. It's not like we don't already have a 90m winger sitting there right now.
Just got an alert for an Athletic piece titled “Manchester United fans, it’s OK to be excited about Ruben Amorim”
I’ve not even read it yet, but the title gave me a chuckle because it made me think of this thread. So many people scarred and traumatised they’re struggling to muster excitement.
Ten Hag was a bust - but I’m not letting that get in the way of another fun ride - I’ve got one more in me! If Ruben ends up a bust, we send him to a coal mine in Bolivia and go again. The game is the game.
I’ve not even read it yet, but the title gave me a chuckle because it made me think of this thread. So many people scarred and traumatised they’re struggling to muster excitement.
Ten Hag was a bust - but I’m not letting that get in the way of another fun ride - I’ve got one more in me! If Ruben ends up a bust, we send him to a coal mine in Bolivia and go again. The game is the game.
I’m with you on this one. I’m buzzing about Amorim leading us into a new era. Excited to see him develop us and use a new system and style.
I don't think he'll get far pulling that with the coach.
I think from the list of managers that INEOS had shortlisted and were linked to replacing ETH in the summer (Southgate, Frank, Tuchel, Nagelsmann) , a back 3 game model is how they envision the club to play moving forward, at least in the near future.
If Amorim doesn't work out, they'll probably go out and get another back 3 manager. And I don't think they're as rare as you implied.
What even is Manchester United at this point?
Was excited, then saw it was written by Carl Anka