Roger v/s Rafa

Vinay

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I feel that talentwise there is no one who really can compare with Roger Federer. When at his best, really there has been no one who could produce the kind of stroke range he does and with the highest quality almost everywhere (one might argue that perhaps his backhand smash might be just not as good as that of Rafter, for instance, but, what else?).

Nadal is a very effective combattant with a sound tactical sense. Can't quite do the same thing with a tennis ball that Roger does. But what brings him almost par with Roger is nothing but his mental power, I believe. This is the only that that Roger would lag behind against Rafael Nadal. If Roger had it a little stronger in his mind, it should have already been one Grand Slams and another in the making this year for him. I feel that twice he 'gave up' against Nadal in the French open finals of the last year and this year's.

So, the idea is that Roger has the best quality of tennis, but, what allows Nadal to compensate and almost more than just compensate are his mental strength and attitude on the court.

Anyone's views on this?
 
The fact that Roger has won so much without a killer serve is also testement to his stroke play.

He's still not quite a Borg or a Sampras as he still doesn't have the French. As far as I understand it, there's far less time to react to shots on clay than on grass so maybe he's more of a mental player than an instinctive player.

Mental player...haha.

Like he said yesterday, it really could have gone either way and maybe Rafa's tougher week and a bit of luck played a huge part. He also said he was chuffed to get in the fifth title before Rafa overtook him for good. Class player, class lad.
 
nadjun07.jpg
 
Was wanting Federer to get his 5th, but Nadal really had me pulling for him. I've never watched him play really, but I'll start watching him now. Too bad Roddick can't get it together and go the distance. :(
 
On the baseline whether it's clay or grass, Nadal seems to have the upper hand.

For me yesterday only reason why Federer won was because he had the experience to pull off those crucial points. On both of those tie breaker sets, Nadal played better than Federer. Let's not forget Nadal is not even 21 right now, I would be surprised if Nadal doesn't win the Wimbledon at least once in coming 3 years.

Anyway this Nadal-Fed rivalry is great for the sport, long it may continue.
 
Was wanting Federer to get his 5th, but Nadal really had me pulling for him. I've never watched him play really, but I'll start watching him now. Too bad Roddick can't get it together and go the distance. :(
Roddick's just not good enough. It's pretty clear as soon as you figure out his serve, there is nothing much left to do.
 
He's still not quite a Borg or a Sampras as he still doesn't have the French.

Sampras never won the French, he never even managed to get past the semi-finals. Federer has made it to 2 finals in a row.

Borg never won the US Open, he lost in the final 4 times! Federer has won the US Open 3 times in a row, and counting.
 
The fact that Roger has won so much without a killer serve is also testement to his stroke play.

He's still not quite a Borg or a Sampras as he still doesn't have the French. As far as I understand it, there's far less time to react to shots on clay than on grass so maybe he's more of a mental player than an instinctive player.

.

No killer serve? His serve is actually very good, as is his 2nd, and thats one of the reasons why he won against Nadal.

If Federer continues to play and win like that, he will overtake them until he finishes his career. To watch him is a pure joy, best player ever imo
 
Rafa has a few minor advantages over Roger. He is the best player on the tour in terms of foot speed, stamina, mental strength, doggedness, power from the baseline, and consistency from the baseline. This is enough to beat most opponents. However, Roger is excellent in all these characteristics, just not quite as good as Rafa. Roger has several major advantages, like service, variety of shot, touch, racket ability, disguise, anticipation, tactical ability, volleying, experience. He also has the priceless ability of all great champions to raise his game when it matters most. That's what won him the match yesterday.

Many writers say the gap is narrowing, and that may be true, but the gap is still there. They say Rafa will win Wimbledon one day, probably in the next 3 years. That's far from obvious to me. Possible, yes, likely, maybe, certain, far from it. Roger will still be at his peak for a few years, and beyond that a lot can happen - Rafa declines or is injured, he's just unlucky in a few big matches, a new, better player emerges, or something else. Likewise, Federer may never win the French.

Rafa is easily the best clay court player since Borg, and maybe even better. But he'll do well to match Borg's record at Wimbledon. His lefthandedness and playing style provides a contrast to Federer and there is a lot to admire in his approach to the game.
 
Sampras never won the French, he never even managed to get past the semi-finals. Federer has made it to 2 finals in a row.

Borg never won the US Open, he lost in the final 4 times! Federer has won the US Open 3 times in a row, and counting.

Granted, I just meant his achievements haven't matched theirs yet and winning the French would go a long way to changing that.
 
Granted, I just meant his achievements haven't matched theirs yet and winning the French would go a long way to changing that.


I am a keen tennis player and am old enough to remember Rod laver.

Also,I have been to Wimbledon every year for the past 18 years,and there is no doubt about it.

Federer is the greatest of all time....he invents shots and plays which are just so different.Never has a tennis player been so good.....he is just unique......no one else comes close......Federer can do anything yet still constantly surprises.
 
I am a keen tennis player and am old enough to remember Rod laver.

Also,I have been to Wimbledon every year for the past 18 years,and there is no doubt about it.

Federer is the greatest of all time....he invents shots and plays which are just so different.Never has a tennis player been so good.....he is just unique......no one else comes close......Federer can do anything yet still constantly surprises.

You have the same feeling and evaluation of Roger as I have, Gillespie! He's a tennis genius. Literally. He can do it all.

Someone was saying that Nadal has the best speed of movement in tennis. I'd surely contest that - Roger moves lightning quick. There's one thing about his moving that makes it so unnoticeable; there's a grace and a facility with which he does his moving - he is as if hovering over the court, floating a few mms above. This can go easily unnoticed compared with the dogged running of Nadal. That movement style, along with his stroke play (inventiveness, craftiness, variety, mastery etc.) make Roger the tennis genius he is.

However, when he is at the French open, I sincerely think that he does not do justice to that talent and there is a mental block of sorts that prevents him being better over a best of 5 against Nadal on clay so far. He started explosively last year and then literally disappeared. This year, he showed only a third of the effort he needed to put in by taking that second set against Nadal. If he had that same attitude throughout three sets, he'd have beaten Nadal, I have no doubts. It's the mental battle he loses against Nadal at Roland Garros (what better testimony to that than the simply phenomenal number of unforced errors he had in this year's final!) Roger is better on clay court than most other clay court specialists (Moya, Ferrero, Kuerten if he were still here, I feel).

I feel that the day he actually wakes up on the day of the French open final and says to himself "I'll simply kill that weird-looking lefty", that's the day he'll beat Nadal at Roland Garros. That's the Nadal attitude - he has no regard whatsoever for his opponent when on the court. His attitude to a winning point against him is "How did that bastard manage to do that to me? How dare he?" That is what is making a difference between him and Roger at the French open. I keep repeating at the French open, because Roger has broken his duck on clay against Nadal this year at Hamburg - one of the reasons why I thought this year's final would have been a different affair.

So, let's hope another clay court victory or two against Nadal next year would give Roger that stronger belief in himself to beat Nadal at the French open. He's the one guy who deserves to win this Grand Slam more than anyone else.
 
Many writers say the gap is narrowing, and that may be true, but the gap is still there. They say Rafa will win Wimbledon one day, probably in the next 3 years. That's far from obvious to me. Possible, yes, likely, maybe, certain, far from it. Roger will still be at his peak for a few years, and beyond that a lot can happen - Rafa declines or is injured, he's just unlucky in a few big matches, a new, better player emerges, or something else.

I'd agree with you. With all his talent, Nadal was a little lucky this year at Wimbledon, I feel. Youzhny got injured at the wrong time - otherwise he was all over Nadal. Djokovic was in no shape to play Nadal after playing something like 9 hours of tennis in the previous 48 or so hours. And yet, he managed to take a set off Nadal. On grass there are others who are more dangerous to Federer than Nadal, I feel. Credit to him, though, he gets stuck in and never has lost a game in his mind until the winning point is won against him.

Likewise, Federer may never win the French.

This is a possibility, but more remote than Nadal winning Wimbledon. I feel Roger deserves to win Roland Garros more than Nadal deserves to win Wimbledon as yet...
 
He's still not quite a Borg or a Sampras as he still doesn't have the French. As far as I understand it, there's far less time to react to shots on clay than on grass so maybe he's more of a mental player than an instinctive player.

Sampras has won much less in his long career on clay than Roger has already won on clay. That's why there is such a debate about Sampras being the best player of all times. Sampras never had half the strokes of Roger.

You probably mean Agassi and Laver? :D
 
Sampras never won the French, he never even managed to get past the semi-finals. Federer has made it to 2 finals in a row.

Borg never won the US Open, he lost in the final 4 times! Federer has won the US Open 3 times in a row, and counting.

I knew about Sampras and knew that Borg never did the Slam. But, I was not sure which one of the Australian or the US he did not win.

The kind of records that Federer will make will take some beating. And we forget to remember probably that he was 22 and had not yet won any Grand Slam tournament. In the last 4 years he has been phenomenal. Was arguably able to do two Grand Slams in a row...
 
I'd agree with you. With all his talent, Nadal was a little lucky this year at Wimbledon, I feel. Youzhny got injured at the wrong time - otherwise he was all over Nadal. Djokovic was in no shape to play Nadal after playing something like 9 hours of tennis in the previous 48 or so hours. And yet, he managed to take a set off Nadal. On grass there are others who are more dangerous to Federer than Nadal, I feel. Credit to him, though, he gets stuck in and never has lost a game in his mind until the winning point is won against him.



This is a possibility, but more remote than Nadal winning Wimbledon. I feel Roger deserves to win Roland Garros more than Nadal deserves to win Wimbledon as yet...
Nadal played 3 days in a row before facing Novak as well and 4 before Fed. And as far as I am concerned Nadal was the better player over the forst 4 sets, Fed pulled it off in the end as I thought he would, Nadal needed to win one of the tie breaks.

And Nadal has clearly given more competition to Fed on grass than the other has on clay. Also let's not forget this was his 4th Wimbledon , wasn't it? Fed took much more time to crack the clay court.
 
I knew about Sampras and knew that Borg never did the Slam. But, I was not sure which one of the Australian or the US he did not win.

The kind of records that Federer will make will take some beating. And we forget to remember probably that he was 22 and had not yet won any Grand Slam tournament. In the last 4 years he has been phenomenal. Was arguably able to do two Grand Slams in a row...
That's also a testimony to the lack of competition in last 4 years. I don't buy the argument Fed has made the competition look shit. Borg had Connors and Mc Enroe to contend with, untill the emergence of Nadal, Fed had no once capable of even testing him.

Lets not forget Borg retired when he was 26, the age Federer is now.
 
I knew about Sampras and knew that Borg never did the Slam. But, I was not sure which one of the Australian or the US he did not win.

Borg didn't ever win the Australian open either, though he only played in it once. Hard courts wasn't one of his strengths.

Federer has won the Aussie Open 3 times in 4 years now. Another record which proves his greatness is that he is the only player ever to win 3 of the 4 grand slams 3 or more times.

Australian Open - 3 times
Wimbledon - 5 times
US Open - 3 times

I fail to see why he has to win the French to be seen as the best.
 
You have the same feeling and evaluation of Roger as I have, Gillespie! He's a tennis genius. Literally. He can do it all.

Someone was saying that Nadal has the best speed of movement in tennis. I'd surely contest that - Roger moves lightning quick. There's one thing about his moving that makes it so unnoticeable; there's a grace and a facility with which he does his moving - he is as if hovering over the court, floating a few mms above. This can go easily unnoticed compared with the dogged running of Nadal. That movement style, along with his stroke play (inventiveness, craftiness, variety, mastery etc.) make Roger the tennis genius he is.

However, when he is at the French open, I sincerely think that he does not do justice to that talent and there is a mental block of sorts that prevents him being better over a best of 5 against Nadal on clay so far. He started explosively last year and then literally disappeared. This year, he showed only a third of the effort he needed to put in by taking that second set against Nadal. If he had that same attitude throughout three sets, he'd have beaten Nadal, I have no doubts. It's the mental battle he loses against Nadal at Roland Garros (what better testimony to that than the simply phenomenal number of unforced errors he had in this year's final!) Roger is better on clay court than most other clay court specialists (Moya, Ferrero, Kuerten if he were still here, I feel).

I feel that the day he actually wakes up on the day of the French open final and says to himself "I'll simply kill that weird-looking lefty", that's the day he'll beat Nadal at Roland Garros. That's the Nadal attitude - he has no regard whatsoever for his opponent when on the court. His attitude to a winning point against him is "How did that bastard manage to do that to me? How dare he?" That is what is making a difference between him and Roger at the French open. I keep repeating at the French open, because Roger has broken his duck on clay against Nadal this year at Hamburg - one of the reasons why I thought this year's final would have been a different affair.

So, let's hope another clay court victory or two against Nadal next year would give Roger that stronger belief in himself to beat Nadal at the French open. He's the one guy who deserves to win this Grand Slam more than anyone else.
I agree with this post.

Basically Federer has won everything apart from a couple of French open finals. Thats as close to perfection as it gets. And whats even better is that, he actually did get to the finals those two times, not looked like a complete novice on that surface. Hes faced one of the best clay court players probably ever and come off worse.

As for the comparison, Federer is well on his way to being the best ever. Nadal is well on his way to being a clay great who can push for being one of the games greats, he has it in him. Its a fabulous rivalry because its the better player who is catching up head to head. From Federers point of view he needs the French to set his supremacy in the history of the game in stone, which IMO he will do, whereas Nadal needs to build on his early success and tread on Federer's backyard(hard and grass) and make a case for him being the best on that in the next few years.

Just as players, Federer is the best i've seen easily, and i think the best sportsman i'l probably ever witness. Its been a pleasure to watch his brand of tennis the last few years, its a step above the rest. Nadal works hard, has a lot to his game, but he isnt a Federer. Roger needs to win the French, and like the poster above i think he can and probably should have already. IMO at his best, and by that i mean mentally as well as physically, he should be Nadal on clay. It sounds like a huge claim, but thats how good his game is. I do agree that he gave up a couple of times in those finals, but it had more to do with the surface, his mindset etc rather than Nadal. This last final was begging for Federer to take control in the third after he had levelled it, and unleash his top game on the clay of paris, but it didnt happen, he tightened up, he got rattled, his timing went off, hence that fight died down.

Funny thing is, almost the same thing just happened on grass, but in the fifth from somewhere he pulled out his best for 15 mins, got over his mental block and turned everything around. That is true greatness, now needs to bring that on clay, he clearly has it all in him.
 
I fail to see why he has to win the French to be seen as the best.

You have a point.

But, really, people will say (the same way as for Sampras) that he never won the French open... He'll be (somewhere) behind the likes of Agassi and Laver and others who have won all four Grand Slams.

Not winning the French will mean that his achievement will be somewhat questioned. Not by you or me and others who appreciate his overall tennistic value, but there will be those. If he wins a couple of French opens, it will be beyond any doubt with anyone!
 
You have a point.

But, really, people will say (the same way as for Sampras) that he never won the French open... He'll be (somewhere) behind the likes of Agassi and Laver and others who have won all four Grand Slams.

Not winning the French will mean that his achievement will be somewhat questioned. Not by you or me and others who appreciate his overall tennistic value, but there will be those. If he wins a couple of French opens, it will be beyond any doubt with anyone!
Nah. Sampras never won the French, he is regarded better than Agassi.
 
Sampras is still the best player of all time. Simply because his all around game was 10/10.

Federer's a bit like Chelsea, all the right resources but not the attacking force he should be.

The Nadal-Federer competition isn't good for the sport, it makes it a tad boring and pointless for the rest.
 
Sampras is still the best player of all time. Simply because his all around game was 10/10.

Federer's a bit like Chelsea, all the right resources but not the attacking force he should be.

The Nadal-Federer competition isn't good for the sport, it makes it a tad boring and pointless for the rest.

Sampras never had the shot making of Federer's. Pete is a little behind Roger in talent and tennis skills.

Having said that, your comparison of Federer and Chelsea is a tad appropriate (I can understand why you say it), although, I don't like it one bit. Federer has too much flair, too much art, too much of creativity for him to be compared to such a dull team as Chelsea.

The likes of Djokovic, Gasquet and Murray are not very far behind at all of Roger and Nadal. I'd expect them to get chinks into the armour of the latter two with increasing regularity sooner than later.
 
Granted, I just meant his achievements haven't matched theirs yet and winning the French would go a long way to changing that.

I don't know Roger already has 11 grand slams and he is still 26.Roger can still dominate the sport till he is 30.

I am a keen tennis player and am old enough to remember Rod laver.

Also,I have been to Wimbledon every year for the past 18 years,and there is no doubt about it.

Federer is the greatest of all time....he invents shots and plays which are just so different.Never has a tennis player been so good.....he is just unique......no one else comes close......Federer can do anything yet still constantly surprises.

You have the same feeling and evaluation of Roger as I have, Gillespie! He's a tennis genius. Literally. He can do it all.

Someone was saying that Nadal has the best speed of movement in tennis. I'd surely contest that - Roger moves lightning quick. There's one thing about his moving that makes it so unnoticeable; there's a grace and a facility with which he does his moving - he is as if hovering over the court, floating a few mms above. This can go easily unnoticed compared with the dogged running of Nadal. That movement style, along with his stroke play (inventiveness, craftiness, variety, mastery etc.) make Roger the tennis genius he is.

However, when he is at the French open, I sincerely think that he does not do justice to that talent and there is a mental block of sorts that prevents him being better over a best of 5 against Nadal on clay so far. He started explosively last year and then literally disappeared. This year, he showed only a third of the effort he needed to put in by taking that second set against Nadal. If he had that same attitude throughout three sets, he'd have beaten Nadal, I have no doubts. It's the mental battle he loses against Nadal at Roland Garros (what better testimony to that than the simply phenomenal number of unforced errors he had in this year's final!) Roger is better on clay court than most other clay court specialists (Moya, Ferrero, Kuerten if he were still here, I feel).

I feel that the day he actually wakes up on the day of the French open final and says to himself "I'll simply kill that weird-looking lefty", that's the day he'll beat Nadal at Roland Garros. That's the Nadal attitude - he has no regard whatsoever for his opponent when on the court. His attitude to a winning point against him is "How did that bastard manage to do that to me? How dare he?" That is what is making a difference between him and Roger at the French open. I keep repeating at the French open, because Roger has broken his duck on clay against Nadal this year at Hamburg - one of the reasons why I thought this year's final would have been a different affair.

So, let's hope another clay court victory or two against Nadal next year would give Roger that stronger belief in himself to beat Nadal at the French open. He's the one guy who deserves to win this Grand Slam more than anyone else.
Spot On, in 2006 he had his best chance to win the French Open but blew it on set points several times.
 
Sampras is still the best player of all time. Simply because his all around game was 10/10.

Federer wins a higher percentage of games and matches than Sampras, and his ATP ranking points are much higher than Sampras's ever were. Sampras had issues with his backhand and his return of serve, which is why Federer is more successful at breaking serve.
 
Federer is on different level to anyone now or in the past. Even Jordan or Gretzky didn´t dominate their sports like Federer does. And there is no team-mate to save him when things are going wrong. He has to dig out of anyning alone.

He is the best. Fact.
 
Federer is on different level to anyone now or in the past. Even Jordan or Gretzky didn´t dominate their sports like Federer does. And there is no team-mate to save him when things are going wrong. He has to dig out of anyning alone.

He is the best. Fact.
He has hardly had to dig out of anything at all. Except Nadal, nobody has pushed him to limits.
 
I don't think Rafa is as near to Roger as people think, he does have one particular advantage though, which is his heavy topspin forehand to Roger's backhand side, Roger struggles to deal with the high ball on his backhand side.

rafa consistently did this in both the french and wimbledon finals, and this was one of the reasons he put roger under pressure. Rafa is dogged, but he doesn't have one single shot that Roger isn't better at except for the inside out high bouncing forehand. If roger can figure out how to deal with that, then i don't think lots more wimbledon titles, and possibly french titles are out of the question.
 
I don't think Rafa is as near to Roger as people think, he does have one particular advantage though, which is his heavy topspin forehand to Roger's backhand side, Roger struggles to deal with the high ball on his backhand side.

rafa consistently did this in both the french and wimbledon finals, and this was one of the reasons he put roger under pressure. Rafa is dogged, but he doesn't have one single shot that Roger isn't better at except for the inside out high bouncing forehand. If roger can figure out how to deal with that, then i don't think lots more wimbledon titles, and possibly french titles are out of the question.

Absolutely right. This observation had escaped me when commenting about why Roger did lose against Nadal in the French open this year. It was a lot about this heavy top spin shot on his forehand, indeed, coupled with the uncountable errors by Federer!

I thought Roger should have tried more often to draw Nadal more to the net and look to pass him. That would surely destabilise Nadal more...