Rivals Draft - Finals: Sjor vs Pat

Who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
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vs


TEAM SJOR

Tactics

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All roads lead to Pep.....harms was first victim of his brilliance, lets see if im going to be second.

Funny to say it for a Pep team but i actually love the defensive side of this team more. Pressing machines in abundance from the midfield up but the defensive core is the thing that i adore the most. Back 3 alongside Netto and Lahm gives so much options and flexibility that id actually pay to see them just defend - Lahm can cover both fullbacks, Holcer can cover everything, Djalma can drop to a CB if needed, Netto covers the left flank. Whatever happens, what ever transition they make from 3 to 4 its going to work nicely.

New faces:
Dirk Kuyt - tireless off the ball runner in both defensive and offensive phase - great goalscoring record as well with 71 goals in 101 games.
Djalma - if i was making the ultimate Pep team with this formation, Djalma is in at RCB
Pedri - probably the best young midfielder i ever saw and a perfect fit for the system, i know its mad to drop Rivera for him but some things had to be done

TEAM PAT

Formation: 4-3-3

  • With Real Madrid's Raul replacing the young River Plate version of Hernan Crespo, I'm finally happy with my club peak for each player. Vasovic is obviously better remembered for his Ajax career, but remained at Partizan until he was 26. I think I preferred the engaged, youthful Spurs Bale to the increasingly moody and disinterested Madrid one, and there's no doubts whatsoever about anyone else in the team.
  • Manuel Neuer replacing Rustu Recber is one of the more substantial upgrades I can ever remember making, and along with Raul completes a team that has morphed into something quite modern and progressive: a defensive line that is comfortable pushing up when we're in possession; a three-man midfield that offers workrate, creativity and ball-retention; goalscoring wide forwards; and a technically excellent CF who will involve himself in the build-up.
  • The distinguished defensive organiser Vasovic led Partizan Belgrade all the way to a European Cup final in 1966, even scoring in a narrow loss to Real Madrid. Carlos Mozer, the athletic powerhouse who hit his imposing peak at Marseille, partners him.
  • Inter Milan and Italy colossus Bergomi plays at RB, and should be a valuable bulwark against dangerous roving forwards like Enzo and Weah. That means a change of flanks for Danny McGrain, who handily was very comfortable at LB, and can naturally cut inside onto his stronger foot in possession given that he has two left-footers ahead of him in Bale and van Hanegem to use the outside channels. Fun fact, that may or may not actually be true: I'm pretty sure that there's more full matches of McGrain playing LB on footballia than there is of him at RB.
  • Van Hanegem renews his telepathic, Europe-conquering partnership with Wim Jansen, who stated that the two were capable of 'blind communication' on the pitch. With the sublime Verratti capable of taking on so much of the deeper ball progression duties, and with no No.10 ahead of him, this is a relatively rare draft opportunity to unleash van Hanegem as the most attacking midfielder. His goal threat shouldn't be underestimated - he hit double figures in 6 out of 8 league campaigns between 1967/68 and 1974/75. All in all, it looks a highly capable unit both in possession and against the ball.
  • The arrival of Raul, with his technical excellence and brilliant ability to find space, adds another layer of threat and fluidity to our attack. Flanking him, Bale and Reus possess an impressive range of abilities to unlock defences, and have freedom to interchange and overload as they wish in the attacking phase. This ability to create dangerous overloads was a notable feature of Reus' performances under Tuchel especially.
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pat_bastard screw me a bit as i thought i would have fun with Rustu but even so there is a way.....plan would be to set up traps for his right side, let the ball go there and then press Vasovic and Bergomi as neither was particularly great on the ball. To ensure the press is top notch i swapped sides for Weah(good defensive wise but not great) and Kuyt who was elite at it.

Slight concerns with mustards side are:
  • while id pay to watch that side, specially midfield he really needed to swap out one of Jansen and Verratti for an attacking minded midfielder
  • Raul from my memory was more of a SS then a striker so lone role could be tricky, specially with lack of bodies in the final third(previous issue)
 
Weah's become an underrated player, he had a great combination of athleticism, intelligence and skill in his ball carrying, link-up play and dribbling. If he'd been a great finisher instead of only a good one he would have had similar impact to Ronaldo imo. tbf his record would probably look like a typical ''80s/'90s 1 in 2 for most league seasons if he had been a penalty taker.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
Weah's become an underrated player, he had a great combination of athleticism, intelligence and skill in his ball carrying, link-up play and dribbling. If he'd been a great finisher instead of only a good one he would have had similar impact to Ronaldo imo. tbf his record would probably look like a typical ''80s/'90s 1 in 2 for most league seasons if he had been a penalty taker.
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you just have to look and listen how Henry talks about him.....
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
Weah's become an underrated player, he had a great combination of athleticism, intelligence and skill in his ball carrying, link-up play and dribbling. If he'd been a great finisher instead of only a good one he would have had similar impact to Ronaldo imo. tbf his record would probably look like a typical ''80s/'90s 1 in 2 for most league seasons if he had been a penalty taker.
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Monster of a player. I picked him recently and watching old footage the visible unease and often panic in the opposition defences when he got on the ball was quite striking. As was his vigour and strength in competing for 50/50 balls and chasing down goalkeepers, even pre- backpass rule. He'd probably enjoy playing in an organised pressing system.

McGrain was a strong and robust defender but Weah will cause him problems with his pace when he's up against him out wide, but there's not many better than Mozer to thwart him when he moves centrally - one of the most powerful CBs I've seen physically, with a great individual record against Weah, who didn't score or assist vs Mozer's Marseille in 4 games, with Weah's teams only scoring twice in four games.

Obligatory video from @Joga Bonito :

 
Pat_Mustard said:
Monster of a player. I picked him recently and watching old footage the visible unease and often panic in the opposition defences when he got on the ball was quite striking. As was his vigour and strength in competing for 50/50 balls and chasing down goalkeepers, even pre- backpass rule. He'd probably enjoy playing in an organised pressing system.

McGrain was a strong and robust defender but Weah will cause him problems with his pace when he's up against him out wide, but there's not many better than Mozer to thwart him when he moves centrally - one of the most powerful CBs I've seen physically, with a great individual record against Weah, who didn't score or assist vs Mozer's Marseille in 4 games, with Weah's teams only scoring twice in four games.

Obligatory video from @Joga Bonito :

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you prick, its a video from me against me as it seems :lol:
tbf thats a Weah from Monaco so technically its a bit pointless for this specific game but yeah, i agree that Mozer would be a great fit(though he would have Enzo to deal with as well)
 
Šjor Bepo said:
you prick, its a video from me against me as it seems :lol:
tbf thats a Weah from Monaco so technically its a bit pointless for this specific game but yeah, i agree that Mozer would be a great fit(though he would have Enzo to deal with as well)
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There's at least one more of your videos getting posted here soon :angel:
 
Šjor Bepo said:
pat_bastard screw me a bit as i thought i would have fun with Rustu but even so there is a way.....plan would be to set up traps for his right side, let the ball go there and then press Vasovic and Bergomi as neither was particularly great on the ball. To ensure the press is top notch i swapped sides for Weah(good defensive wise but not great) and Kuyt who was elite at it.

Slight concerns with mustards side are:
  • while id pay to watch that side, specially midfield he really needed to swap out one of Jansen and Verratti for an attacking minded midfielder
  • Raul from my memory was more of a SS then a striker so lone role could be tricky, specially with lack of bodies in the final third(previous issue)
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On the first point, I know that the current trend is for a five man attack in the attacking phase, but I'm fairly content with my options there. Front three is a given of course, as is van Hanegem, particularly given the freedom he has as the most attack-minded midfielder with McGrain additionally likely to cut into midfield. He was surprisingly prolific at club level, as outlined in the OP, regularly hitting double figures in the league, with an unlikely-looking 17 in 25 games in 1967/68 being the highlight. He carried that ability into continental competition too: 10 goals and 5 assists in 19 European Cup matches, and 10 goals and 8 assists in 25 UEFA Cup games. With his height and grizzly bear physique he was quite a menace in the air (transfermarkt credits him with 40 header goals, and there'll doubtless be more that they don't have information on), and you'd back him to have success against Djalma and/or Lahm in that segment if we can fashion an opportunity there.

As regards that fifth man, the splendid @Synco made me revise my opinion on Bergomi's attacking abilities a bit:

Synco said:
Definitely not in an Dani Alves kind of way, but after watching him closer for the last draft, I think he may make a seriously good all-action, overlapping RB with buildup duties. Needs further research on my part, but he did love to go on these irresistable overlapping/attacking runs, and wasn't averse to higher positioning/combination play in possession either. The reasons he did this occasionally rather than constantly seem more tactical to me than an actual limitation in ability or desire.

But I'd understand if people are sceptical about this, as his role in its entirety was certainly quite different back then. (I also guess in modern days he'd most likely be a CB.)
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and made a lovely comp of him here, with a fine assist at 08:37:

https://sendvid.com/y0jkqq1l

Verratti's end product is famously negligible, but Jansen racked up a surprising amount of assists, and he loved a burst into the right channels especially. A one-stop shop showing the two Wims both scoring in one of the biggest matches of their career, defeating the reigning champions Milan en route to winning the European Cup themselves. Jansen's goal definitely wasn't supposed to be a cross either :wenger:

 
Pat_Mustard said:
On the first point, I know that the current trend is for a five man attack in the attacking phase, but I'm fairly content with my options there. Front three is a given of course, as is van Hanegem, particularly given the freedom he has as the most attack-minded midfielder with McGrain additionally likely to cut into midfield. He was surprisingly prolific at club level, as outlined in the OP, regularly hitting double figures in the league, with an unlikely-looking 17 in 25 games in 1967/68 being the highlight. He carried that ability into continental competition too: 10 goals and 5 assists in 19 European Cup matches, and 10 goals and 8 assists in 25 UEFA Cup games. With his height and grizzly bear physique he was quite a menace in the air (transfermarkt credits him with 40 header goals, and there'll doubtless be more that they don't have information on), and you'd back him to have success against Djalma and/or Lahm in that segment if we can fashion an opportunity there.

As regards that fifth man, the splendid @Synco made me revise my opinion on Bergomi's attacking abilities a bit:



and made a lovely comp of him here, with a fine assist at 08:37:

https://sendvid.com/y0jkqq1l

Verratti's end product is famously negligible, but Jansen racked up a surprising amount of assists, and he loved a burst into the right channels especially. A one-stop shop showing the two Wims both scoring in one of the biggest matches of their career, defeating the reigning champions Milan en route to winning the European Cup themselves. Jansen's goal definitely wasn't supposed to be a cross either :wenger:

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Yeah im aware of the goalscoring record from Van Hanegem and i rate him incredibly high(easily better player then Neeskens and IMO probably the best dutch midfielder of all time(even though i rate Davids very highly as well)) but was talking more about general play....for all the goalscoring records you wont find him nor you want him in pockets between defence and midfield and thats something this team needs, specially with Raul up there as he needs as much help as possible.

Bergomi is just meh, you can find attacking actions from pretty much anyone(apart from poor old Nobby(someone needs to insert that gif!)) but there is a universe between his ability on the ball and all other fullbacks on the pitch(if there wasnt, Bergomi would be up there with the likes of Cafu, Alves, Zanetti etc. if not better then some of them considering how good of a defender he was).

Surely Jansen goalscoring threat is minimal considering he plays as a defensive midfielder?
 
Will come back to Raul and I'd planned to do a video that I almost certainly won't complete before this match ends, but I'll leave this enjoyably angry post from a Real Madrid supporting poster Redondo_Pirri for now :D

Tell me who led the line for Real Madrid after Morientes got injured at the end of 2001 by himself? I'll be here waiting. Tell me where did Raul play in the 2004 CdR final and for all those games Ronaldo (fat) missed? Tell me where did Raul play when Higuain came to town specifically 07/08, 08/09? In the 95/96 season when bam bam went down to injury who led the line by himself? In his debut year in La Liga under Valdana he made a number of appearances in La Liga and consequently after this all without bam bam as well. I could go on, but it's quite obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

And again he was never ever a winger, if you watched him play you would know this. As I said looking at a team sheet shows you nothing.
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With then general trend towards two-striker systems, and Real's love of accumulating big-money strikers, it's not surprising that he predominantly played in a duo, but he did accumulate a fair amount of playing time as the lone striker, and I reckon he'd probably play through the centre in a modern three-man attack. As regards how I see it working in this match when he drops off, here's a short visual illustration courtesy of one @Šjor Bepo :



where you have Raul dropping back a few yards, and the wide attackers moving beyond him and a midfielder (van Hanegem) making a late run into the area. Raul was a wonderful poacher himself though, both in terms of finishing and finding space in the penalty area, so this isn't a full-blown False 9 role by any means.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Will come back to Raul and I'd planned to do a video that I almost certainly won't complete before this match ends, but I'll leave this enjoyably angry post from a Real Madrid supporting poster Redondo_Pirri for now :D



With then general trend towards two-striker systems, and Real's love of accumulating big-money strikers, it's not surprising that he predominantly played in a duo, but he did accumulate a fair amount of playing time as the lone striker, and I reckon he'd probably play through the centre in a modern three-man attack. As regards how I see it working in this match when he drops off, here's a short visual illustration courtesy of one @Šjor Bepo :



where you have Raul dropping back a few yards, and the wide attackers moving beyond him and a midfielder (van Hanegem) making a late run into the area. Raul was a wonderful poacher himself though, both in terms of finishing and finding space in the penalty area, so this isn't a full-blown False 9 role by any means.
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Tbf i didnt say he would be awful, i said it its a point of concern and that i personally rate him more with a partner where he doesnt have to lead the line, hold the ball up and pretty much do the all the "donkey" work for the team, i much prefer him playing in the hole where he is more intelligent then most to find little pockets of space to hurt you both via neat play as from the short video from above, passing interplay with teammates or a "late" run from nowhere to poach it.
Lets use Rashford as example, did he play as a striker lots of times for United? Of course he did but he is also miles better as a left forward.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Yeah im aware of the goalscoring record from Van Hanegem and i rate him incredibly high(easily better player then Neeskens and IMO probably the best dutch midfielder of all time(even though i rate Davids very highly as well)) but was talking more about general play....for all the goalscoring records you wont find him nor you want him in pockets between defence and midfield and thats something this team needs, specially with Raul up there as he needs as much help as possible.

Bergomi is just meh, you can find attacking actions from pretty much anyone(apart from poor old Nobby(someone needs to insert that gif!)) but there is a universe between his ability on the ball and all other fullbacks on the pitch(if there wasnt, Bergomi would be up there with the likes of Cafu, Alves, Zanetti etc. if not better then some of them considering how good of a defender he was).

Surely Jansen goalscoring threat is minimal considering he plays as a defensive midfielder?
Click to expand...

Not sure tbh. It feels a bit like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it in terms of having the protection that a DM affords as well as claiming that he can be an extra body in the box in the attacking phase. I feel like we've been seeing that a lot these days though. Rodri, the cnut, seemed to pop up in threatening positions a few times each match just about every time I watched City towards the end of the season.

More pertinently for me would be Casemiro. We all saw often he'd pore forward for us last season, albeit that was more out of desperation as we invariably needed a goal. For Real though, there was a trend for him to press forward in the build up with Kroos or Modric handling the first phase of the build-up, which is Verratti's bread and butter really. So with Verratti de facto in the holding position, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for Jansen to move forward?

Tldr: Not sure.

I will say that there's not that many midfielders I'd rather have against an intense press than Verratti. The guy is (or was :() just sublime, to the extent that I found it quite jolting last season finally seeing him getting caught out with those deep dribbling attempts.

 
Pat_Mustard said:
Not sure tbh. It feels a bit like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it in terms of having the protection that a DM affords as well as claiming that he can be an extra body in the box in the attacking phase. I feel like we've been seeing that a lot these days though. Rodri, the cnut, seemed to pop up in threatening positions a few times each match just about every time I watched City towards the end of the season.

More pertinently for me would be Casemiro. We all saw often he'd pore forward for us last season, albeit that was more out of desperation as we invariably needed a goal. For Real though, there was a trend for him to press forward in the build up with Kroos or Modric handling the first phase of the build-up, which is Verratti's bread and butter really. So with Verratti de facto in the holding position, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch for Jansen to move forward?

Tldr: Not sure.

I will say that there's not that many midfielders I'd rather have against an intense press than Verratti. The guy is (or was :() just sublime, to the extent that I found it quite jolting last season finally seeing him getting caught out with those deep dribbling attempts.

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Tbf City is a poor example as they are not playing the same sport as the rest of the world....+ more recently he is playing in a mid 2 with Stones.

Same with Casemiro, playing in a midfield 2 so he goes forward more. Cant comment on the Madrid version as i didnt watch enough. Also, why not then put Verratti as n6 and Jansen as central midfielder? :D

Yap, Verratti is amazing against the press :drool:
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Hmm would Enzo - Weah - Kuyt be a better attacking lineup?
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For me, no.
Specifically wanted Kuyt on the left side for the defensive tasks and Enzo from River played up top while Weah was more of a "floating" attacker so the modern "wide" role would suit him nicely.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Tbf City is a poor example as they are not playing the same sport as the rest of the world....+ more recently he is playing in a mid 2 with Stones.

Same with Casemiro, playing in a midfield 2 so he goes forward more. Cant comment on the Madrid version as i didnt watch enough. Also, why not then put Verratti as n6 and Jansen as central midfielder? :D

Yap, Verratti is amazing against the press :drool:
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:lol: Mostly because it doesn't look as nice, and also because Jansen will likely mostly be the deepest when we're in the organised defensive phase. Similar to that Casemiro with Real example, where he'll always be shown as the holding player in a formation graphic but there were plenty of occasions when he wasn't the deepest midfielder. Or more generally you might have an overlapping FB as your most advanced player at times, but you wouldn't stick him up at the opposition corner flag on your graphic.

Šjor Bepo said:
Tbf i didnt say he would be awful, i said it its a point of concern and that i personally rate him more with a partner where he doesnt have to lead the line, hold the ball up and pretty much do the all the "donkey" work for the team, i much prefer him playing in the hole where he is more intelligent then most to find little pockets of space to hurt you both via neat play as from the short video from above, passing interplay with teammates or a "late" run from nowhere to poach it.
Lets use Rashford as example, did he play as a striker lots of times for United? Of course he did but he is also miles better as a left forward.
Click to expand...

We'll come back to the Raul discussion when I make this video, probably long after the match ends :D. One match won't tell the whole story of course, but I'd like to watch him a bit more in that role anyway. Although Guti is playing in the match I've downloaded, so it's possible he'll be the more advanced of the two, in which case it's a bit pointless.

Now this might be a bit spiteful and petty, and I recognise how selfless he'd be both defensively and as an off-the-ball runner, but has Pep ever regularly used a player as slow and technically limited as Kuyt in his attack? Now Sterling and Pedro weren't exactly virtuosos with the ball at their feet, but both of them had excellent pace, and a touch that was markedly better than Kuyt's if I'm remembering in any way correctly.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Now this might be a bit spiteful and petty, and I recognise how selfless he'd be both defensively and as an off-the-ball runner, but has Pep ever regularly used a player as slow and technically limited as Kuyt in his attack? Now Sterling and Pedro weren't exactly virtuosos with the ball at their feet, but both of them had excellent pace, and a touch that was markedly better than Kuyt's if I'm remembering in any way correctly.
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Personally i hate Kuyt but on the same hand i dont rate Pedro and Sterling on the ball(like at all, reason why both flopped without Pep) so while both were slightly better then Kuyt in that regard, neither of them was used there because of that, both were used as off the ball runners. Technically limited id give you as i agree with it(always thought him and Glen Johnson should swap positions!) but while he wasnt Kyle Walker, he was pretty quick, specially in younger days.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
you prick, its a video from me against me as it seems :lol:
tbf thats a Weah from Monaco so technically its a bit pointless for this specific game but yeah, i agree that Mozer would be a great fit(though he would have Enzo to deal with as well)
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:lol:
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Congratulations @Šjor Bepo

GG @Pat_Mustard
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Cheers Edgar. That was a really fun draft.

Well played @Šjor Bepo ! I think I must have the worst record in finals in draft history. In one way, it's great and overdue that supporting players like Kuyt are actually able to get some appreciation in the right setup now, and it's a welcome move away from just accumulating as many GOATs as possible. On the other hand, I got annihilated by Dirk fecking Kuyt.

8VNNjXb.png
AHR7rt1.png


Lovely, innovative team though.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Cheers Edgar. That was a really fun draft.

Well played @Šjor Bepo ! I think I must have the worst record in finals in draft history. In one way, it's great and overdue that supporting players like Kuyt are actually able to get some appreciation in the right setup now, and it's a welcome move away from just accumulating as many GOATs as possible. On the other hand, I got annihilated by Dirk fecking Kuyt.

8VNNjXb.png
AHR7rt1.png


Lovely, innovative team though.
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tbh i thought you would win comfortably considering i went from Rivera to Pedri and the fact i went with fecking Kuyt :lol:
good game, nice little debate and a fun draft edgar
 
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