Right, lets get a few things straight.

WeasteDevil

Guest
A lot of people on this forum are calling for some type of change, either the manager (crazy suggestion) and players (would need a serious clear-out to provide any real change).

Do any of you people realise how much this would cost in monetary terms, not just in terms of general stupidity?

It's farcical, the only real way to change things is over several years (at least 5 to 6). It's called transition, which is what we are going through at the moment, because most of our most important players over the last decade are going to have to be replaced at some point in the near future. And this includes:

Keane,
Beckham,
Scholes,
Giggs,
Butt,
and the Nevilles.

How much do you people think that is going to cost? Because the older they get, the less we will be able to get in terms of transfer fees.

Shipping them out all (or several of them) at once would cost a huge amount of money, and imbalance the team.

I say, if a shakeup is what is required (and I don't think that it is), then the only option would be to sell off one or two of those in the list (eg. Giggs and Gary Neville) just to give the rest a good kick up the arse.

It doesn't make sense though at the moment. All we should do is buy or produce some promising youngsters who will hopefully be able to fit into their shoes in the future.

Big changes are not only irresponsible, but also very costly and disruptive. NO! We are in transition, and some of you will just have to put up with the fact that we might not win anything on the domestic front for a few years. Is that acceptable to you?
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>I say, if a shakeup is what is required (and I don't think that it is), then the only option would be to sell off one or two of those in the list (eg. Giggs and Gary Neville) just to give the rest a good kick up the arse...Is that acceptable to you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Over my stone-cold dead body!!! :mad:
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Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

Over my stone-cold dead body!!! :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, it was only an example - Beckham and Gary Neville then.
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Ok, it was only an example - Beckham and Gary Neville then.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:eek: that's just the hard place instead of the rock. who could go? i'd say no one, but is that sentimentality talking?
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Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

:eek: that's just the hard place instead of the rock. who could go? i'd say no one, but is that sentimentality talking?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nobody, read again what I said:

I say, if a shakeup is what is required (and I don't think that it is), then the only option would be to sell off one or two of those in the list...

It doesn't make sense though at the moment. All we should do is buy or produce some promising youngsters who will hopefully be able to fit into their shoes in the future.
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Nobody, read again what I said.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i did and i got it...was merely asking who "could" if we suddenly had to sell. it's like fecking Gin Rummy :(
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Originally Posted by WeasteDevil:
Big changes are not only irresponsible, but also very costly and disruptive. NO! We are in transition, and some of you will just have to put up with the fact that we might not win anything on the domestic front for a few years. Is that acceptable to you? <hr></blockquote>

Yes, no team's going to carry on winning forever. We'll come out stronger at the end.
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Originally posted by mancred:
<strong>Another fantasy land topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What land are you in then? Moanersville?
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Generally I agree with you Weastie, but it's hard to debate this without ressurecting all the threads during the past week.

You'd have to be naive not to accept that all teams have go through a period of transition.

As for SAF, basically he was the proverbial lucky general up to and including 98/99 - we came perilously close that year to winning zilch. Remember also that the clear out of 1995 coincided with the emergence of some very talented youngsters, followed by some shrewd squad additions.

That luck and touch in the marketplace appears to have run out at the time the game is moving on and being redefined by other Managers.

There are lots of things that concern me (including tactics and attitudes on the pitch), but the main things are :

- lack of young players coming through, home grown or imported (O'Shea being the obvious exception);

- a lot of players sat on big contracts who, inexplicably, have 'waned' since they signed up and

- at the risk of infuriating you and our good mate fergiesarmy I cannot see SAF's touch or good fortune returning quickly.

A lot of people here talk about selling players as if they'll go because they are not wanted anymore, but I'm not sure it will be that easy.

If we have an unproductive season and need to sell to make room for new talent, then people won't be queuing to buy the Nevilles, Fortune, Chadwick at contracts equal or better than the ones they are on, simply because we are in a 'buyers market' and conditions get ever tougher.

We may have to look at selling some of our crown jewels to 'balance the books'. Which will not please supporters who have no concept of the phrase 'period of transition' when applied to a Club of Manchester Utd's size.

At the end of the day, we do not have the Spanish government bankrolling us. Doesn't bother me unduly, as long as there are 11 players out there in Utd colours playing the game the right way.
 
I totally agree that we are not performing, something is wrong, and that things need to be addressed.

I also agree that one of the crown jewels should be sold. I suggested this at the end of last season, and my suggestion was Giggs. It hurts because he is my favourite player, but it must be accepted that for the good of the team as a whole, he is the one that would currently bring in the most revenue in relation to his long term value. Here I mean, how long his pace can last, because without his pace, his only future option is to turn into a Sheringham like player.

It will upset a lot of people yes, but maybe is something that has to be done.
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>I totally agree that we are not performing, something is wrong, and that things need to be addressed.

I also agree that one of the crown jewels should be sold. I suggested this at the end of last season, and my suggestion was Giggs. It hurts because he is my favourite player, but it must be accepted that for the good of the team as a whole, he is the one that would currently bring in the most revenue in relation to his long term value. Here I mean, how long his pace can last, because without his pace, his only future option is to turn into a Sheringham like player.

It will upset a lot of people yes, but maybe is something that has to be done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, especially after the AGM rumours suggest he won't have much money to spend in January, we will probably need to sell an expensive player to fund the expensive transition and to serve as a warning to the other players. I also agree that Giggs is a fairly logical choice, he's just had his testimonial so it might be time for him to try Italy, which might actually suit him. He'd have many suitors, with one Italian club praising him in particular after the Wales victory.
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Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
I agree, especially after the AGM rumours suggest he won't have much money to spend in January, we will probably need to sell an expensive player to fund the expensive transition and to serve as a warning to the other players. I also agree that Giggs is a fairly logical choice, he's just had his testimonial so it might be time for him to try Italy, which might actually suit him. He'd have many suitors, with one Italian club praising him in particular after the Wales victory.</strong><hr></blockquote>


there aint many good left wingers available at all so to get rid of giggs is crazy wed be better off getting some decent cover instead.
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Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

Over my stone-cold dead body!!! :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

comeandgetsome.gif


Well, you asked for it, dear. <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> only joking :D

I don't think it would be a surprise if we had to sell players to raise transfer funds. And I would not be against that at all. I am prepared to go a few seasons without trophies while we rebuild. I said that in another thread.
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Originally posted by Fergiesarmy:
<strong>


there aint many good left wingers available at all so to get rid of giggs is crazy wed be better off getting some decent cover instead.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If we did sell him I think it would have to be because we could buy Duff with the money, shame it wasn't done during the summer before he negotiated a new contract after his successful World Cup.
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Originally posted by sidsutton:
<strong>

I don't think it would be a surprise if we had to sell players to raise transfer funds. And I would not be against that at all. I am prepared to go a few seasons without trophies while we rebuild. I said that in another thread.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i dont think our squad is strong enough to be thinking of selling any of our key players, the only ones we could afford to let go at the moment are some of the fringe players but we wouldnt get enough to buy goater for them

:(

its time to spend some of that 300 million me tinks

<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
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Originally posted by Fergiesarmy:
<strong>

i dont think our squad is strong enough to be thinking of selling any of our key players, the only ones we could afford to let go at the moment are some of the fringe players but we wouldnt get enough to buy goater for them

:(

its time to spend some of that 300 million me tinks

<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

In reply to the editorial piece at the top, I gave my opinion that we sell some of the established stars who at least appear to be resting on their laurels, and buy younger players who have the hunger and want to prove themselves. I wonder if some of the current squad are now content with what they have achieved. It would only be human nature after all.
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One thing that I have been thinking about with respect to maybe selling off a player or two of ours, is how much do we REALISTICALLY think they are worth. I thought about starting a thread about it, but not sure whether to do it here or the Transfer Forum. Anyone interested in discussing it?
 
Originally posted by sidsutton:
<strong>

In reply to the editorial piece at the top, I gave my opinion that we sell some of the established stars who at least appear to be resting on their laurels, and buy younger players who have the hunger and want to prove themselves. I wonder if some of the current squad are now content with what they have achieved. It would only be human nature after all.</strong><hr></blockquote>


so who would you think of selling remembering the way the transfer market is going and what you think we could expect for them these days when players like rivaldo go for nothing?

personally i wouldnt want to get rid of any of the homegrown talent some of them havent been at thier best but i wouldnt want to lose them!

keano, ruud, ole would be wrong also imo

you wouldnt get squat for blanc

weve only just got rio

that only leaves barthez and veron of any real saleable value and i cant see who would want to buy them at them the moment.

so the only answer imo is to loosen the purse strings get another striker and proper backup for giggs and beckham
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Originally posted by Fergiesarmy:
<strong>


so who would you think of selling remembering the way the transfer market is going and what you think we could expect for them these days when players like rivaldo go for nothing?

personally i wouldnt want to get rid of any of the homegrown talent some of them havent been at thier best but i wouldnt want to lose them!

keano, ruud, ole would be wrong also imo

you wouldnt get squat for blanc

weve only just got rio

that only leaves barthez and veron of any real saleable value and i cant see who would want to buy them at them the moment.

so the only answer imo is to loosen the purse strings get another striker and proper backup for giggs and beckham</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm torn on the issue of selling the home grown players. At what stage does loyalty to a player become a negative effect on the team and you play them for who they are rather than what they produce?

Players who I would like to keep(for various reasons) would be Keane, Rio, Scholes, Ruud, O'Shea. I'd listen to offers for almost everyone else. Now I know it is unlikely in the extreme that Beckham would be sold so soon after signing a new contract, but it is just my opinion. I base it partly on the fact that in order to raise money in the transfer market, you're probably gonna have to give up one of your top players. No doubt becks would get the largest transfer fee of anyone in our squad.
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Originally posted by sidsutton:
<strong>

I base it partly on the fact that in order to raise money in the transfer market, you're probably gonna have to give up one of your top players. No doubt becks would get the largest transfer fee of anyone in our squad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

but we would probably end up spending a large chunk of the same fee on buying a player to replace beckham.
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Originally posted by Fergiesarmy:
<strong>

but we would probably end up spending a large chunk of the same fee on buying a player to replace beckham.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, the money from the fee would go back into replacing Becks and strengthening the squad. If we bought wisely and invested in younger players I think we could do it. We seem to have gone away from picking up the "rough diamond" players on the cheap and making them into our own polished gems. This is all easier said than done, of course. :)
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I think there is too much talk of drastic action on this board these days, whether it is weastedevil (with whom I usually agree about certain things) or others thinking that there is a crisis at Manchester United.

Unlike weastedevil, I don`t think that MU fans have to accept not winning silverware or playing in the mediocre style that the Red Devils showed last season at times or have slipped into this season for some games.

I don`t think MU fans are that cliched `glory hunters`, `day trippers`, `muppets` or whatever tired adjective a few posters use at the drop of a hat here, if they express their concern or even anger at the low (for Manchester United) standards that are becoming too frequent.

The fact that Sir Alex has mentioned that fans have a right to be angry when the team turns in mediocre, passionless performances says it all for me.

However, I also think that some fans are getting too worried about the current situation. No club stays at the top forever because players age, lose their drive and thus their playing edge, the manager brings in players who may look good in other teams but don`t fit into his team, etc, etc.
But I am still not convinced that lack of drive or players getting older is the reason for MU`s having some mediocre games by its own high standards.

I don`t think that selling Becks or Giggs to cash in on them while they are still capable of commanding good money is any kind of answer to anything that is wrong at MU. You would have two gaping holes to fill imo because top class players don`t lose their ability over one season. Giggsy`s form has been patchy and Becks has not been as good as previous seasons but in previous seasons the team had a different set-up and different players that gelled beautifully.

I do agree with weastedevil`s point about transition. Before last season it looked as if it would be business as usual for MU but Veron was brought in although we really didn`t need another midfielder and his presence unbalanced the side, particularly as he did not fit in well and still has not (although I think he has been inconsistent, not poor in his performances).

Jaap was sold because he was foolish enough to reveal things about Sir Alex that would have been better off never seeing the light of day in print, Denis Irwin retired, Coley, Sheringham and Yorkie moved on (although in Dwight`s case it was no loss as he never looked as if he was going to put in any commitment such as that shown in the Treble year)and we had injuries that put out players that would have held the team together more.

This season has not been great so far but I think that it has hardly been bad apart from the derby and one or two other games. Before I tended to blame the tactics Sir Alex has used but Murt demonstrated recently that the team is not really playing a different formation compared to previous seasons.

One of the answers is to start putting more of the promising youngsters on the bench, giving them that valuable entree to and experience of playing pressure football in the first team. I applaud Sir Alex for doing that in the European Cup - it was a great move and now it should be the case in the line-up for Premiership games.

As for buying new players - do we really need to buy more players that look greatin Europe but would take too long to adjust to the Premiership a la Veron?

I think we need to buy a defender of proven quality and flexibility but I would like to see one of our young lads given striking responsibilities from time to time in the first team. However, with Ole in the team I cannot see why there should be any complaints about strikers. Sir Alex must utilise him more and stop taking him for granted.
 
I just wrote a long text in reply to you GG, but the computers fecked it up and I can't get it back, and I'm not writing it again! <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />

I mostly agreed with you BTW.
 
Originally posted by pjaya:
<strong>great post giggsgirl! ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I said that in my original post that this website somehow lost. <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />
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The players I wouldn't sell would be: Rio, O'Shea, Scholes, Becks, Rudd. And to some extent Ole and Butt. All others could go for a reasonable fee. In Giggsy's case, we could play Richardson 'till the end of the season. If he underperforms (for some reason I don't think he would) then buy Duff in the summer.
As far as signings go, we should get young players 20-25 of age. Not too expensive (ala Rio, Veron). Maybe Ronaldinho for 15 mil would do just fine.
 
<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
 
slaggin' off players, slaggin' off managers.. same ol' thing.. what's the difference when someone says SAF is losing it and giggs is losing it?

i seriously doubt any of us have rights to say who should go and who shouldn't.. they've all been great for us.. give them until the end of this season before making any sudden moves.

if anyone can play in the big games for us, it's players like giggs and G.Nevilles.. give them the chance they deserve.. just the same way many of you are saying give SAF a chance..

i don't see any harm in it. do you?
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>A lot of people on this forum are calling for some type of change, either the manager (crazy suggestion) and players (would need a serious clear-out to provide any real change).

Do any of you people realise how much this would cost in monetary terms, not just in terms of general stupidity?

It's farcical, the only real way to change things is over several years (at least 5 to 6). It's called transition, which is what we are going through at the moment, because most of our most important players over the last decade are going to have to be replaced at some point in the near future. And this includes:

Keane,
Beckham,
Scholes,
Giggs,
Butt,
and the Nevilles.

How much do you people think that is going to cost? Because the older they get, the less we will be able to get in terms of transfer fees.

Shipping them out all (or several of them) at once would cost a huge amount of money, and imbalance the team.

I say, if a shakeup is what is required (and I don't think that it is), then the only option would be to sell off one or two of those in the list (eg. Giggs and Gary Neville) just to give the rest a good kick up the arse.

It doesn't make sense though at the moment. All we should do is buy or produce some promising youngsters who will hopefully be able to fit into their shoes in the future.

Big changes are not only irresponsible, but also very costly and disruptive. NO! We are in transition, and some of you will just have to put up with the fact that we might not win anything on the domestic front for a few years. Is that acceptable to you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good post that. Yes it is and it is reality.

Real did it with Redondo (probably one of the best bits of business i've ever seen), Barca with Rivaldo, Juventus with Zidane, us with Stam etc.. These sales all share a common factor which was all the players were ageing, yet seemingly irreplaceable members of the squad, the sale of whom would be unthinkable to the fans. Transition is inevitable. It's the timing that's the tricky bit though.
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I know I am biased, having loved Giggsy with a passion since he burst onto the MU scene but can anybody give me a point by point explanation of why Giggs should be sold? I would be interested as I see no need to sell him but obviously there is another side to the story. Please!
 
I'm not at all sure that an overhaul of the players is needed. Have they really lost their hunger and desire? Not at all sure that is the case or the problem. You look at the spine of our team and it has all changed in the last couple of years (with Fabien/Ricardo/Carroll, Larry/Rio, Seba and Ruud/Diego)...not to mention the change we've had in our formation the last couple of years. So, I think there can be other factors at work here that could also explain the drop in our performances.

When you look at the quality in our side, on paper, we're really not that far short. We need a pacey striker, preferably one that can run at defenders and we need a back-up for Silvestre. I think we've got enough in other areas to get by (not perfect but enough)...as long as we don't continue to be incredibly unlucky with injuries.

We have to remember too with these lists that we're constructing of who we think should go...it's not that easy to sell players these days. We've signed a lot of these players up on lucrative long-term contracts and a number of them are currently on salaries that other teams would probably be unwilling to pay.

Also, it's up to the individual player now as to whether or not he wants to leave. Take a player like Scholesy for example (who I hope would NEVER be on our transfer list)...local player, unassuming, ultimate professional who goes in does his job, goes home to his family and seems perfectly happy with his lifestyle. He has never seemed to have had any desire to live abroad or to play for anyone other than us. And for those of you who have Giggsy on your list of players to sell, would he want to leave? He's had several opportunities to leave but has always chosen to stay with United. I think when he signed his last contract with United, in his mind he decided that he'd spend the remaining prime years of his career with us. If we did ever try to sell him, ultimately it would be Giggsy's decision as to whether or not he'd go.
 
Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>

oh another loss to city...maybe bolton again too....</strong><hr></blockquote>

we won't win feck if you bring in a new manager this january either. bring in more players? at the current rate we could be bringing another useless player for either the EPL or the CL.. our scouts seem to be doing sh*t for work.

keep the staff, keep the managers, keep this exact squad. get a few more back up - no super stars - this january and fight it out. season over, sell off the whole team, rebuild all they want i'll still support them.

the point is we always come good half way through the season. no reason to panic yet. comes April if we're not running for atleast 2 trophies then we think rebuild. NOT NOW.
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no i do not think that not winning anything for a few years is acceptable especially when you consider the type of commitment the club/shareholders and fans are putting in the club. Things do have to change, and i beleive that being the richest club in the world gives us the edge to change things when we want to change things.
 
not if you have some 22 year old hungry for success youngster instead of him!
 
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