Last edited:
Reserves Draft Final | Tuppet vs Joga/RedTiger
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
Team Tuppet
'Il gioco all'Italiana'
'The Game in the Italian style'
Tactical system
From the beauty and flair of magic square system of Brazi 82, we move to the system that actually beat them. The pragmatic and efficient Zona Mista, which made Italy world champions in 82 and Trapp’s Juventus the best team in Europe.'The Game in the Italian style'
Tactical system
Zona Mista (‘mixed zone’) combines the strength of zonal marking and Catenaccio.
Defense
In Zona Mista, there are four defenders. My Libero, Morten Olsen, is free to roam and assist the other defenders. Olsen will be the leader of the backline, organizing his defense, covering for Ferrara and Perfumo, while orchestrating play from deep. Considered one of the best libero since Backenbauer era, he is used to playing various positions due to his versatility and all-round ability.
The defence was marshalled by Morten Olsen, who almost accidentally discovered the libero role in his thirties and took to it so well that arguably only Franz Beckenbauer has performed better in that position. Olsen, who played international football into his forties, read a game as if he had written it.
Patrice Evra is my terzino fluidificante sinistro (the attacking wingback) – one of the best attacking fullback in premier league era, he won everything there is to win at club level. He would be my main outlet of width on the left side, in a role that is tailor made for him. Evra will surge forward to create chances down the left, but not as often as Bruno Conti on the right.
The two stoppers, Roberto Perfumo and Ciro Ferrara mark their zones. Ferrara will mark the right zone in his terzino destro (stopper) role. The classy Italian provides expert positioning and is equally capable playing the ball out from the back. Regarded as one of the best defender of his generation he was able to play anywhere in backline. He was captain of the brilliant Zidane/Davids/Ferrara Juventus team of the 1990’s reaching three consecutive Champions League finals and is totally at home in his RCB role having played as a fullback on many occasion.
The two stoppers, Roberto Perfumo and Ciro Ferrara mark their zones. Ferrara will mark the right zone in his terzino destro (stopper) role. The classy Italian provides expert positioning and is equally capable playing the ball out from the back. Regarded as one of the best defender of his generation he was able to play anywhere in backline. He was captain of the brilliant Zidane/Davids/Ferrara Juventus team of the 1990’s reaching three consecutive Champions League finals and is totally at home in his RCB role having played as a fullback on many occasion.
Roberto Perfumo is my Centrale (stopper), My defensive line is marshaled by of one of the greatest central defenders and charismatic leaders of all time, and the second greatest South American defender of the 1960s : 'El Mariscal' Roberto Perfumo - the legendary Argentina captain who was famous for his toughness, positional intelligence, anticipation and covering skills. A physically imposing defender, with great technical abilities Perfumo will not shy away from hard-tackles, dominant on the floor and in the air, his experience playing with another great libero in Passarella would come handy when Olsen would go up field to support attack.
The former Argentine legend, captain of the national team, Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup winning defensive stalwart Roberto Perfumo - who was known as 'El Mariscal' or The Marshall of defense, for his ability to single-handedly control the entire defensive line, lead the back four with his tactical insight and vocal presence, and having the knack for always being in the right place at the right time to avert danger. His positioning skills and intuition for defense were a sight to behold, and infact, he was considered the best central defender in South America behind only Elías Figueroa for the bulk of the 1960s, and the greatest Argentina defender of all time after two time World Cup winner, Daniel Passarella. It's no coincidence that he's an ever-present figure in almost every Argentina all time XI.
Maradona on his fellow Argentine legend:[Perfumo] is regarded as Argentina's most elegant, shrewdest, toughest defender. His only rival is Daniel Passarella. Maradona's verdict? 'Forget Passarella. Perfumo was our real Kaiser.'
Despite of having relatively lesser known defenders, individually my defense is at least equal or actually better than Joga's defense. Perfumo is widely regarded as better defender than Ruggeri in almost all Argentinian boards I can find, while Ferrara is the more talented one from the Vierchwood-Ferrara partnership. As a partnership its even better and is more complimentary.
Amedeo Carrizo is my goalkeeper. Carrizo was a special breed of goalkeeper – A pioneer of the position, Carrizo was the first goalkeeper to wear gloves, the first one to leave the penalty area to defend his goal and the first one to use goal kicks as a strategy to start counterattacks. Regarded as the best south american goal keeper of all time by IFFHS (and 9th overall) he provide solidity to an already brilliant defense.
Midfield
The midfield consists of four midfielders. Toninho Cerezo is my mediano di spinta, the defensive midfield enforcer. Considered a legend in his position Cerezo marries the tireless running, endless stamina and defensive nous of an anchor man to vision and passing range of a deep lying playmaker. Winner of 2 back to back Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental cups, he won everything there is to win at club level, including a horde of individual awards like bola de Ouro (Best player in Brazil) in 1977 and 1980, and Bola de prata (Best player in his position) in 1976, 1977 and 1980. After moving to Serie A with Roma where he picked up a couple of Copa Italia (1984, 1986), he then moved to Sampdoria where he became a legend, leading team to Serie A win in 1990-91 and to Cup winner's cup in 1991, along with 2 Copa Italia in 1988 and 1989.
Arguably his best performance came when he joined Sao Paulo from Sampdoria in Intercontinental cup 1993 final against Milan, where he won man of the match award -
São Paulo had already won the 1992 Intercontinental Cup when in 1993 they faced AC Milan with a chance to become only the fourth team to win the title back to back. This was the Milan of Baresi and Maldini who would win the Scudetto the coming season conceding just 15 goals. The 38 year old Toninho excelled. A first time cross field pass to a young Cafu to set up the first, followed by a timed run to score the second at the back post himself and capped off with a defense splitting pass for the third. São Paulo won 3-2.Arguably his best performance came when he joined Sao Paulo from Sampdoria in Intercontinental cup 1993 final against Milan, where he won man of the match award -
Rainer Bonhof is my centrocampista (Central Midfielder) - a complete footballer, skilled in tackling, short and long distance passing and shooting. An iconic player for Germany over the years, Bonhof was pivotal to Germany's success in the 70s. A tireless player, Bonhof owned the left hand side of the pitch with his runs up and down all day long. Not giving any space to the opposition, Bonhof also had the ability to take the control of the game with his passing and movement that led to some great buildups, and one of which led to him assisting Gerd Muller for the winning goal in the 1974 World Cup. Alongside Cerezo, he will make a watertight duo that will not only suffocate most great attacking midfielders out there, but also be the engine to control the game from that area of the pitch and come forward when needed.
Bruno Conti is my ala destra, a right winger blessed with lightning pace, exceptional passing and dribbling ability and a creator and scorer of important goals. He will own that right flank, also cutting in from the wing acting as a support striker for my centravanti, Seeler. Conti was instrumental in Italy’s World Cup triumph in 1982, proving to be one of the best players of the tournament.
He was “Core de Roma” or the Heart of Rome when Francesco Totti was still in elementary school, but Bruno Conti continues to be an idol in the minds of the giallorossi faithful.
Zbgniew Boniek: “I’ve seen Conti from on the pitch, on the television and from the stands – it’s almost impossible to stop him. Among other things, he has a very precise and powerful shot”
Bobby Charlton: “If I was the national coach of any team in the world, I would want Bruno Conti with me”
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “Italy were deserved winners. The tournament’s best player? For me it’s Bruno Conti; it was an honour for me to swap shirts with him after the final. I’ll keep it as a memory of a fantastic champion”
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “Italy were deserved winners. The tournament’s best player? For me it’s Bruno Conti; it was an honour for me to swap shirts with him after the final. I’ll keep it as a memory of a fantastic champion”
My midfield is completed by the most important player on my team, Valentino Mazzola. Valentino Mazzola is my fantasista, a box-to-box inside forward. Defensively sound, creative and a goalscoring threat - Mazzola was Grande Torino's leader and heartbeat. He is considered to be the first great modern all-round footballer. When not in possession, Mazzola will be seen dropping deep supporting the midfield or pressing the opponent's defenders - to regain the ball high up the pitch with my talented attackers will prove lethal in the last third. Since we are playing in Italy 82 formation, here’s what their coach Enzo Bearzot had to say about Mazzola -
“The greatest Italian player of all time was Valentino Mazzola; he was a man who could carry his whole team.”
Italian international Amedeo Amedei once said –
“I was lucky enough to see Valentino’s extraordinary talent close up, there has been no more complete player in Italy before or since.”
“I was lucky enough to see Valentino’s extraordinary talent close up, there has been no more complete player in Italy before or since.”
The term complete player gets thrown around a lot and it makes very hard for us to comprehend that a player such as this was actually alive in flesh and blood. Its easy to question the validity of claims of these mythical players who can defend in their own box, set up goals and could still be top scorer !! Thats the problem of Mazzola and Di Stefano of the world. But just think about why they are considered the greatest player ever, not because they scored at manaical rate like Pele or Romario, not because they dribble around 10 players to score goals like Maradona or Messi, no this completeness is precisely the reason for their legendary status. The problem is worse for Mazzola since we don't have much footage, as such I leave you with these 2 quotes from reliable sources.First off is the Gianni Brera, the legendary Italian sports journalist -
"He could take off like a sprinter, ran like a middle distance runner and shot with either foot like a striker. He could leap like an acrobat, won the ball back for the defense and then set up attacks, which he often finished off himself. He was both a playmaker and a match winner."
Second is the oft repeated quote from his team mate Mario Rigamonti, which shows both the ability and status of Mazzola in Grande Torino team -
He alone is half the squad. The other half is made by the rest of us together.
In my mind Mazzola is the best player on the pitch, playing in his best position and is given responsibility to run the game as he like, I think that could be the edge that my team need to win in a tight game.
Attack
Zona Mista employs a two-prong attack.Uwe Seeler is my centravanti, a spectacular goalscorer, and a scorer of spectacular goals - the main focus playing upfront. The Hamburg legend and one of the greatest German players of all time, only overshadowed by Gerd Müller when it comes to German strikers. He was renowned for his brilliance in the air, one of the strongest headers of all time. But he also had an astonishing record with his feet in the air, scoring many overhead kicks.
He was the dominant player in the pre-Bundesliga era and carried that over into the first ever Bundesliga season, when he finished as top scorer scoring 30 goals in 30 games. But he wasn't just a limited goalscorer and showed his adaptability and fantastic all around game once he partnered Müller for the national team and formed a magnificent strike partnership, linking up play from midfield to attack, which lead to both together scoring 13 goals in 6 games at the World Cup 1970 (10 by Müller, 3 by Seeler). Key to Zona Mista is the counter-attack mentality – thus, Uwe Seeler is the perfect centre forward to lead my offensive line, Rated as 7th most prolific forward by RSSF he is able to finish the chances he receives with lethal accuracy and consistency.
Florian Albert is my seconda punta - a playmaking, creative forward who plays wide to the left and drifts inside to act as a forward. The Ballon D’or winning light footed magician is considered as one of Hungary’s greatest ever players, possessing immense technical ability - stunning ball control, superb vision and accurate passing.
In his support striker role, Albert created many goals for his team-mates, but he also possessed great speed, dribbling ability and an accurate shot which made him a significant goal threat in the most important games. Albert was the star of the 1962 and 1966 World Cup winning golden ball and best young player award in 62, while in team of the tournament in 66, providing a master class against Brazil, in one of the greatest world cup games. Albert was a hero for Ferencvárosi TC (winning 4 Hungarian league titles, while being top scorer 3 times). He was also the top scorer in 1966 European cup (Champions league predecessor), while winning the Fairs cup (Now UEFA cup) in 1965 beating the likes of Manchester United (of Law, Charlton, Best) and Juventus.
Onward
Adopting the Zona Mista tactical system, we aim to soak up pressure and hit teams on the break - we will have a high counter-attack mentality. Therefore, the goal-scoring efficiency of Uwe Seeler, Florian Albert and Valentino Mazzola is paramount. The main creative thrust of the system is from Mazzola (the fantasista), Cerezo (central midfielder), and Conti & Albert in the wide offensive areas. Uwe Seeler will have a sublime supply of ammunition, through Conti’s delivery from the right wing, Mazzola’s through balls, Albert’s artistry on the left, and Cerezo's accurate passes from deep. When counter attacking, this gives us the possibility of flooding the oppositions' area with a total of five attacking players (Conti, Seeler, Mazzola, Bonhof/Evra and Albert).Team Joga/RedTiger
Team Instructions
Formation: 4-2-3-1
Playing Style: Attacking direct style with a bit of possession thrown in
Defensive Line: Normal
Preferred Zone of Action: Balanced, with a slight inclination centrally
Player Roles
Edwin van der Sar - Goalkeeper - Shot-stopping/defense organising/ball-playing goalie
Stefan Reuter - Right back - Balanced
Vierchowod - Center Back - Covering
Ruggeri - Centre Back - Stopper
Maxime Bossis - Left back - Balanced
Uli Stielike - Defensive Midfielder - Ball playing destroyer
Soren Lerby - Central Midfielder - Box to Box dynamo
Gianni Rivera - Attacking Midfielder - #10
Mario Kempes - Left Forward - Inside left
Allan Simonsen - Right Forward - Wing Forward
Jimmy Greaves - Striker - Spearhead
Defence:
An imposing and rock-solid rearguard which starts off with van der Sar, who would be charged with organising the defense, distributing the ball astutely and being the reliable last line of defense - for which his CL and PL clean-sheet records (a whopping 1311 minutes without conceding a goal) are testament to.
A top tier stopper, the fiery Oscar Ruggeri was a truly colossal figure at the back with his impeccable game aerially and his indomitable physical game on the deck. Goes without saying that he wasn't 'just your average stopper' and was actually a decent player on the ball, and a match-winner in his own right - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot. Ruggeri will exhibit his same trademark game here which he did in the 1986 victorious WC campaign, where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final. A classic Italian defensive pillar, Pietro Vierchowod was teak tough, ultra-competitive, possessed great positional sense and the sort of 'afterburn' acceleration that most centre forwards would kill for. It was his phenomenal cocktail of sheer athleticism and defensive nous, which led the likes of van basten, Maradona, Lineker etc to label him as their toughest opponent and allowed him to flourish in the exacting conditions of the Serie A for two decades - winning the Guerin d'Oro ahead of ballon d'Or winning Platini.
The classy yet resolute Maxime Bossis would reprise his balanced role on the left, with his cerebral presence down the left flank and overlapping runs complementing Kempes prowling around the inside left channels perfectly. He is also the perfect panacea for Müller's Raumdeuter-esque tendencies, with Bossis's right footedness, reading of the game (not a single yellow card in his 76 caps) and ease on the flanks, channels and central areas perfectly fitting the job description. The 'Turbo' Stefan Reuter, will ply his trade down the right flank, primarily looking to link up with Simonsen, whilst engaging in a battle with Conti in the defensive phase. Reuter's wingsmanship will augment Simonsen's game well, esp with Simonsen being a two-way player capable of going down the flank or cutting in. The CL winning German also has the requisite dynamism and an the swiftness to keep track of the lively Conti.
Midfield:
The cornerstone of the midfeld, Uli Stielike will be the primary defensive shield of the engine room, providing the dynamism, tactical nous and physicality in the core. The Gladbach and Real Madrid legend certainly knew a thing or two about exhibiting his skills on the ball, having excelled as a libero for both club and country. He will play as the holding midfielder here, keep an eye on Albert, facilitate ball retention, build-up play and occasionally venture forward to mix things up. Soren Lerby comprises the other half of the brickwall patrolling the engine room. The irrepressible Lerby was the bedrock around which the midfields of Bayern, Danish Dynamites and European Cup winning PSV revolved around, with the mad Dane being a real driving force. A quintessential B2B, Lerby was also an excellent footballer to boot and had a lovely left peg on him. Lerby would function as a shuttling B2B whilst being a constant menace for Tuppet's midfield off the ball.
The heart beat of the side, The Golden Boy Gianni Rivera, will quite simply be the playmaking maestro whom the side gravitates around. One of the greatest playmakers of all time, ballon d'Or winning Rivera was a sublime genius with unparalleled vision, but also a rapier like threat on the ball with his phenomenal dribbling skills - having started out as a winger. Rivera would be the prime source of the supply line and will look to link up with two excellent ball playing midfielders behind him, feed the ravenous duo of Kempes-Greaves, stretch play with the full-backs/Donadoni or weave his magic by himself. He has the freedom to do as he pleases.
Forwards:
The explosive El Matador Mario Kempes was a goalscoring supremo of the highest pedigree. Kempes wasn't just about goals though and was a great all-round forward, with his tenacity and skill coming right to the fore for both club and country. He was equally capable of pulling something out of the bag with his quirky footwork, or rampaging through defenses like a whirlwind before finishing aplomb. One of the only three players to have won the Golden Ball and the Golden Boot in a single WC, Kempes's 1978 WC exploits were truly stuff of legend - esp his one man crusade against the Dutch in the final with 2 goals and an assist. With Bossis and Lerby to mesh with on the left, Kempes will primarily look to take residence in the left channels and provide incisive runs for Rivera and Simonsen to capitalise on. Simonsen's pace and trickery on the right complements the inside left tendencies of Kempes perfectly and allows the Argentine to play his natural game.
Bsllon d'Or winner Allan Simonsen was the consummate wing-forward, tremendously skilful and lethal in equal measure. The magical Dane was just as likely to beat his man on the outside and put in an inviting cross, as he was to jinxing past the opposition before slotting it into the onion bag. Simonsen was a shining light for post Netzer Gladbach and was the talismanic figure who led them to several trophies - a hattrick of Bundesligas and 2 UEFA Cups. Nothing would highlight his big game pedigree more than him being the only player to have scored in all 3 of UEFA, European Cup and Cup Winners Cup Finals - in addition to finishing as the top scorer in the 1978 European Cup and the 1979 UEFA Cup. Simonsen would primarily look to exhibit his trickery on the right and utilise his creativity in combination with his goalscoring potential - a deadly blend.
At the tip of it all is goalscoring supremo Jimmy Greaves. The all-time top scorer in the history of the top 5 European Leagues, Greavesy was an absolutely lethal forward who scored goals out of nothing. He bagged the English League Top Scorer title a stunning 6 times, with a staggering 422 goals in 602 club appearances (220 goals in 321 appearances for Spurs, 124 goals in 157 appearances for Chelsea) and scored a mind boggling 44 goals in 57 caps for England. He will be exploiting the channels, occupying the centre-backs and simply gobble up the service coming his way. All he needs is a whiff of a chance and the ball will be at the back of the net.
Tactical Points
1) Central Core
The midfield unit of Lerby-Stielike and Rivera has just about everything that you'd want from the midfield unit. Whilst there is nothing much between Rivera and Albert - one being a playmaking maestro and the other being an creative goalscoring forward, I do think we have the edge in the Stielike-Lerby duo which boasts the perfect blend of steel and class. Stielike was the general around which the late seventies and early eighties Real Madrid was built around. He was awarded the La Liga Foreign POTY for four consecutive seasons and led his teams to 2 European Cup Finals, and is arguably the greatest German sweeper after Der Kaiser and Sammer. Likewise, Lerby was a force of nature and the driving force in midfield for both club and country. It speaks volumes that Bayern bought him to replace Paul feckin Breitner and of course, Bayern didn't miss him as they went on to win 2 Bundesligas and 2 DFB Pokals with Lerby leading the charge. Likewise, he was the player whom the engine room of the famed Danish Dynamites revolved around. Whilst there is a lot to like about Cerezo-Bonhof, I'd say that they, relatively, my midfield duo is just a wee bit stronger.
Ultimately, a lot hinges on whether Albert or Rivera, the respective team's talismans, are going to be pulling the strings here and I'd back Rivera to have a greater impact on this game against Cerezo-Bonhof, relatively. Rivera was the type who couldn't be afforded an inch of space - lest he punish you in deadly fashion. The Golden Boy, was the match-winner against Eusebio's Benfica in the European Cup Final, assisting both the goals in the encounter which led him to winning the Ballon d'Or silver ball at the tender age of 20. He would go a step further and deliver a masterclass in the European Cup final against Cruyff's budding Ajax side, winning the MOTM and the ballon d'Or for good measure. And that's before we throw in his match winner against Der Kaiser's Germany in the WC semi final - billed as the match of the century. A dazzling fantastista with a ruthless match-winning pedigree to boot, Rivera would be dovetailing with World Cup Golden Ball winner Kempes and fellow ballon d'Or winner Simonsen here.
Good luck @Tuppet
Good luck @Tuppet
You've certainly thrown me a curveball with the dropping of Müller no doubt, and it's a nice attempt at a zona mista, but I do have to question certain aspects of your version of the zona mista.
The LWB spot was absolutely paramount to the zona mista with Cabrini, for Italy and Juve, being a match made in heaven with his ability to run the flank single-handedly and most importantly, provide quality service from the left single-handedly. As too was Facchetti for the classic catenaccio set-up.
Evra was defintely a fantastic full-back and arguably better than Cabrini defensively I'd say. However, whilst Evra was known for his dynamism and presence down the left flank, I'd label him as a brilliant overlapping full-back and not as a wing-back tbh. If there was one thing that Evra was lacking, it was his end-product and his crossing wasn't at the requisite level for a wing-back imho.
He was a top notch overlapper though (with his pull-backs being a feature), with excellent dribbling ability and his link-up play tends to be underrated at times. I do question his fit as a wing-back in a zona mista system, without another wing player to dovetail with. The right side is bang on in terms of balance though, granted.
Likewise, Albert in an inside left role of sorts does seem out of place. I've pegged him down as a predominantly central player in the matches that I've watched of him and I seriously question his fit for that job description in your set-up.
I actually wanted to mention the quality differential that exists between both defenses (with both sides sporting imposing attacks) in the OP, but thought that it might have been unnecessary and harsh.
Anyway, individually speaking Bossis is arguably the best left back in this draft alongside Junior and as much as I love Evra, I'd have Bossis ahead of him. Ruggeri is regarded as one of the greatest stoppers of all time - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot. That in addition to winning 2 Copa Americas and the WC - where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final. Boards are hardly an indication of reliability tbf, and I seriously doubt many placing Perfumo (a fine defender in his own right) ahead of Ruggeri on here at the very least.
Likewise, Vierchowod whom the likes of van basten, Lineker, Zola, Maradona etc labelled as their toughest opponent ever and someone who won the Guerin d'Oro ahead of ballon d'Or winning Platini, over Ferrara too. Hard to compare Reuter with your zona mista defense but I'd have him over Leandro, your only RB, on the basis of his defensive edge alone. I'd only have Evra from your defense in my side with Bossis as the RB for what it's worth. (Sorry for repeating the OP harms)
So yeah, it's fair to say I disagree with that statement of yours.
You've certainly thrown me a curveball with the dropping of Müller no doubt, and it's a nice attempt at a zona mista, but I do have to question certain aspects of your version of the zona mista.
The LWB spot was absolutely paramount to the zona mista with Cabrini, for Italy and Juve, being a match made in heaven with his ability to run the flank single-handedly and most importantly, provide quality service from the left single-handedly. As too was Facchetti for the classic catenaccio set-up.
Evra was defintely a fantastic full-back and arguably better than Cabrini defensively I'd say. However, whilst Evra was known for his dynamism and presence down the left flank, I'd label him as a brilliant overlapping full-back and not as a wing-back tbh. If there was one thing that Evra was lacking, it was his end-product and his crossing wasn't at the requisite level for a wing-back imho.
He was a top notch overlapper though (with his pull-backs being a feature), with excellent dribbling ability and his link-up play tends to be underrated at times. I do question his fit as a wing-back in a zona mista system, without another wing player to dovetail with. The right side is bang on in terms of balance though, granted.
Likewise, Albert in an inside left role of sorts does seem out of place. I've pegged him down as a predominantly central player in the matches that I've watched of him and I seriously question his fit for that job description in your set-up.
I actually wanted to mention the quality differential that exists between both defenses (with both sides sporting imposing attacks) in the OP, but thought that it might have been unnecessary and harsh.
Anyway, individually speaking Bossis is arguably the best left back in this draft alongside Junior and as much as I love Evra, I'd have Bossis ahead of him. Ruggeri is regarded as one of the greatest stoppers of all time - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot. That in addition to winning 2 Copa Americas and the WC - where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final. Boards are hardly an indication of reliability tbf, and I seriously doubt many placing Perfumo (a fine defender in his own right) ahead of Ruggeri on here at the very least.
Likewise, Vierchowod whom the likes of van basten, Lineker, Zola, Maradona etc labelled as their toughest opponent ever and someone who won the Guerin d'Oro ahead of ballon d'Or winning Platini, over Ferrara too. Hard to compare Reuter with your zona mista defense but I'd have him over Leandro, your only RB, on the basis of his defensive edge alone. I'd only have Evra from your defense in my side with Bossis as the RB for what it's worth. (Sorry for repeating the OP harms)
So yeah, it's fair to say I disagree with that statement of yours.
Last edited:
I like Tuppet's journey through tactical systems but not too convinced about Evra in that role. I will see how it plays out.
Best of luck @Joga Bonito
Well there is no doubt that Bossis is better fullback, but the role I need Evra to play, I would take him over Bossis here.
On Perfumo, again he is widely regarded second best defender in Argentina after passarella, here are a few all time Argentina Squad attempts -
Finally there is not much between Ciro Ferrara and Vierchwood, but I would definitely have Ferrara over Vierchwood as a partner of Perfumo. Which incidently takes me to the point of the balance of your defense, its minor point but I dont think you defensive partnership is particularly complimentay.
Well to begin with, I completely disagree with this. There is absolutely nothing between Bonhof and Lerby in box to box roles, and I would pick Cerezo ahead of Stielike for a defensive midfielder role. Not to forget the support they get from Mazzola and Olsen, I am pretty certain my midfield is better primmed for the battle.
Well there is no doubt that Bossis is better fullback, but the role I need Evra to play, I would take him over Bossis here.
On Perfumo, again he is widely regarded second best defender in Argentina after passarella, here are a few all time Argentina Squad attempts -
Finally there is not much between Ciro Ferrara and Vierchwood, but I would definitely have Ferrara over Vierchwood as a partner of Perfumo. Which incidently takes me to the point of the balance of your defense, its minor point but I dont think you defensive partnership is particularly complimentay.
Albert is playing a creative support striker role, one which he excelled in, He does not have to be a left inside forward, he is playing for example Bettega from Juve team or Grazziani role from Italy team , where he has freedom to peel wide whenever required but not necessarily playing as a wide player. He definitley has the skills, dribbling and pace to be exteremly effective in wide areas. The width comes from Evra primarily and Conti channging sides constantly, a role he played to perfection in WC 82.
Last edited:
Finally Evra is as good as it gets in this draft for LWB slot, I am not saying he is as good as Cabrini for this role, but attacking and running up and down the left wing, was always Evra's primary strength. Sure his end product might be lacking a bit, but he can definitely play 1-2s with Albert or Mazzola.
Let's just leave that to the voters to decide and not descend into a X v Y debate. We've both made our points.
Tbh, I'd take neither for that role.
Bettega was an inside forward though. I agree that Albert has the skills, dribbling and pace but that so too have plenty of other #10s/second-strikers and it doesn't necessarily translate to them being effective in wide areas or being able to play as an inside forward. Players like Charlton, del Piero, Häßler, Rivelino etc would have been ideal and they clearly had the 'wide inclination' in their game to play such roles. Or more pertinently, the likes of S.Mazzola, Bettega, Causio, Boniek etc in their respective catenaccio/zona mista set-ups. Albert couldn't be further away from that category of players.
The likes of Gemmell, Wilson and even Zambrotta would have been better fits, despite being below Evra in terms of quality. Attacking and running up and down the wing was Evra's primary strength but whenever he was left alone on the flank (think Fergie tried him as a left mid a few times if I remember correctly), it clearly didn't work out well at all. As stated above, Evra's strengths were overlapping, his link-up play and sheer athleticism. However, end product and single-handedly manning a flank weren't exactly his forte.
It's not just about him playing as a wing-back but rather him playing in an extreme system where there is a huge tactical responsibility placed on him and with him being isolated with barely any support on the left. I highly doubt you'd get peak Evra there and the LWB spot is without doubt, a crucial segment to your zona mista tactics.
Both of whom were predominantly central players without any significant 'width inclination' in their plays. I highly doubt their ability to provide the requisite support for Evra on the left flank.
Last edited:
@Tuppet
Why would you opt for zona mista?
That would be my main question. You don't say anything in your write-up which would make it remotely clear why you'd opt for this particular approach against this particular opponent, given the players you have (or the players your opponent has).
You seem to have drafted Conti and then decided to go Italian (moving on from a magic square in the last match). Which is nice, but it has to make sense. Evra? Yes, sure, he's a better fit for a zona mista left back/wing back than my granny - but what's the point?
Why would you opt for zona mista?
That would be my main question. You don't say anything in your write-up which would make it remotely clear why you'd opt for this particular approach against this particular opponent, given the players you have (or the players your opponent has).
You seem to have drafted Conti and then decided to go Italian (moving on from a magic square in the last match). Which is nice, but it has to make sense. Evra? Yes, sure, he's a better fit for a zona mista left back/wing back than my granny - but what's the point?
Well as such there is no other reason than I thought it suits my players very well. With 2 great stoppers, a libero and an attacking wing back and 2 brilliant forwards, I thought it suits my players. As for opposition all 3 forwards in kempes, Simonson and greaves are all primarily central players, so my 3 central defenders would make it hard for them. Esp Ferrara against Kempes.
Well I honestly believe that evra would work well in the system but you learn something new every time I guess.
It's not like that.
He might work well enough (compared to other players) in that role. The question is why you'd want to give it to him in the first place.
I don't see why you'd want to go with this Italian job at all. You've gone for a particular (historical) formation (with designated roles) - I don't see why. Your players may or may not be well suited for it, but the question remains why you've opted for that blueprint.
If you think it's the logical thing to do - fair enough. I don't see it myself, but then again I'm seeing double at the moment: Going to bed is the blueprint for me.
I don't really get this - it just looks like he's gone for the system due to his players suiting it. Nothing too controversial there as far as I can see.
He has a defensive right back and a right winger on one side, and an attacking left back and a second striker on the left, so this type of system seems one of the more obvious ones to go for IMO.
I think it all looks quite functional and I don't see the same issue with Evra that Joga is - whilst he wasn't quite Roberto Carlos going forward he was always an asset in attack under Ferguson and his sheer physicality and fitness make him suited to a set up such as this, which demands he's available on the overlap thoughout the match.
Stretching the play and getting up and down the flank is what Evra did most games IMO so I think he's well suited to the task.
Ugh, Seem we are losing some ground and I won't wait till 70th minute to make changes. Alright considering the narrow attack of our opposition (both Kempes and Simonsen likes to play centrally) and the fact that Evra might struggle to provide the required service, we do the substitution - Out goes Valentino Mazzola and in comes one of the greatest wingers of all time Felix Loustau.
We change our approach from zona mista system to a lop sided 4-2-3-1, with Albert taking the primary playmaker role and Loustau & Conti stretching the field. Now I think my defensive RCB Ferrara squares up perfectly against Kempes, limiting his effectivity, while Olsen and Perfumo look after Greaves. Evra does not need to be the primary outlet on the left anymore and can work on Simonsen, while still providing fantastic outlapping to Loustau. Conti runs the right wing single handedly as he is used to, Seeler who is one of the best header of all time, gets outstanding service from 2 of the best wide players of all time and Loustau can cut in score a few himself, not to forget Albert who's got a brilliant scoring record himself. I think there are just way too many ways our attack can punish the opposition defense and our defense nullifies most of the opposition attack.
More on Loustau -
Felix Loustau is rightly known as one of Argentina's greatest wide players. A key member of the famous la maquina, Loustau has scored 101 goals in 365 appearances and 10 goals in 28 Argentina appearances. His career unfortunately coincided with the war period and he did not get the chance to perform at world cup stage, so the only way to judge his international credentials is in continental competitions and what credentials they are.Consecutive 3 Copa America wins with him scoring an impressive 4 goals from outside left position in the 1947 Copa America. Winner of 8 Argentina Permier division, "The Chaplin" was known for his incredible dribbling, crossing and acceleration.
some links on him (Mostly in spanish or french) -
http://elpais.com/diario/2003/01/07/agenda/1041894008_850215.html
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2003/01/06/d-01301.htm
@Balu please make the substitution and add this to OP whenever you get some time. Cheers.
We change our approach from zona mista system to a lop sided 4-2-3-1, with Albert taking the primary playmaker role and Loustau & Conti stretching the field. Now I think my defensive RCB Ferrara squares up perfectly against Kempes, limiting his effectivity, while Olsen and Perfumo look after Greaves. Evra does not need to be the primary outlet on the left anymore and can work on Simonsen, while still providing fantastic outlapping to Loustau. Conti runs the right wing single handedly as he is used to, Seeler who is one of the best header of all time, gets outstanding service from 2 of the best wide players of all time and Loustau can cut in score a few himself, not to forget Albert who's got a brilliant scoring record himself. I think there are just way too many ways our attack can punish the opposition defense and our defense nullifies most of the opposition attack.
More on Loustau -
Felix Loustau is rightly known as one of Argentina's greatest wide players. A key member of the famous la maquina, Loustau has scored 101 goals in 365 appearances and 10 goals in 28 Argentina appearances. His career unfortunately coincided with the war period and he did not get the chance to perform at world cup stage, so the only way to judge his international credentials is in continental competitions and what credentials they are.Consecutive 3 Copa America wins with him scoring an impressive 4 goals from outside left position in the 1947 Copa America. Winner of 8 Argentina Permier division, "The Chaplin" was known for his incredible dribbling, crossing and acceleration.
some links on him (Mostly in spanish or french) -
http://elpais.com/diario/2003/01/07/agenda/1041894008_850215.html
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2003/01/06/d-01301.htm
@Balu please make the substitution and add this to OP whenever you get some time. Cheers.
A typically Eloquent Joga write up about Bruno Conti -
MARAZICO
He was “Core de Roma” or the Heart of Rome when Francesco Totti was still in elementary school, but Bruno Conti continues to be an idol in the minds of the giallorossi faithful.
Bruno Conti, the greatest Italian winger of all time, is one of the true legends of the Italian game. Having spent his whole career at the same club. he has a firm place in every Roma fan’s heart. A sublimely talented winger, he was an absolute nightmare for defenders, who had the displeasure of facing the electric trickster in his pomp, tearing up and down the flanks.
Conti formed an integral part of a Roma side that became legendary, consisting of players such as Agostino Di Bartolomei, Paulo Roberto Falcao, Toninho Cerezo and Roberto Pruzzo. Conti had a superb understanding with Pruzzo in particular, who he had played together with at Genoa. “Most of the time all we needed to do was look at each other”, Pruzzo recalls. Conti wore the number 7 shirt at Roma, but played on the left hand side of the pitch in order to use his powerful left foot. Rather than bludgeon the ball though, Conti caressed it as he dribbled and moved with the ball as skilfully and as agile as any Brazilian growing up on the streets of Rio de Janeiro. He was a gifted midfielder with an excellent shot, and was later nicknamed ‘Marazico’ because of his characteristics that resembled the iconic Diego Maradona and Zico.
Conti played a major part in the trophies that Roma won in the 80s, including successive Coppa Italias in 1980 and 1981 before winning Roma’s second ever scudetto in 1983. A tactical switch made by Liedholm at the start of the season proved crucial in the title win, as Di Bartolomei was moved back to protect the defence and use his passing ability to pick out Conti on the wing. From there, he was devastating. Falcao explains that Conti “had the technical skills of a South American player, and sometimes it was hard to convince him not to dribble more than he had to! He had the skill to hide the ball from the defenders”. Gianni Brera, the legendary Italian sports journalist, added that “he glides and creates things like a possessed dancer. Then he stops, you catch up with him, then he sets off again”.
Bruno played 26 times in the 82/83 title-winning season and was Roma’s key man in them winning their second ever scudetto. In a team brimming with talent, Conti shinned, creating numerous goals and was the link between attack and defence. A true Romanista, Conti claimed that winning the scudetto with Roma was an even better feeling than winning the World Cup with the Azzuri. “To win the World Cup is the best feeling that you can have doing this job, but the World Cup is seven games. To win ascudetto in the city you’ve grown up in, where you interact with the fans on a daily basis, is even better. I fulfilled a dream by winning the scudetto here in Rome when I made sacrifices for a whole year, compared to the World Cup which was seven games and where everything is decided in a month. But of course they’re both two wonderful victories”.
The World Cup itself was one of the crowning moments of Conti’s career. His performances for Roma had earned him a call up to Enzo Bearzot’s squad for the 1982 tournament, where he took the place of Franco Causio. His dribbling, passing and ability to create opportunities for his team-mates led him to be named as the player of the tournament by Pele, who also described him as “more Brazilian than the Brazilians”. It was in the final against West Germany where Conti really made his mark, winning a penalty (which was subsequently missed by Cabrini), playing a key role in the second and assisting the third goal which was scored by Alessandro Altobelli, as Italy won 3-1. Paolo Rossi, who ended up as the tournament’s top goalscorer, said that “all you had to do was tap the ball into the back of the net” because Conti would do the rest.
Further trophies followed as Bruno won the Coppa Italia in 1984, 1986 and 1991, but the European Cup was fatefully not to be added to his list of honours. The 1984 final against Liverpool was even played at the Stadio Olimpico in front of just under 70,000 fans, but after drawing 1-1 in normal time with Conti assisting for Pruzzo's equaliser, Conti missed the second penalty in the shootout and the Lupi went on to lose 4-2 on penalty kicks. He eventually retired from football in 1991, and to grasp the affection that Romanisti have for Conti and to understand what he represents to the club, perhaps it’s enough to say this. On 23rd May, 1991, Roma played a commemorative match to be Conti’s final game before he retired, and the game was attended by over 80,000 fans – around 9,000 more than the amount that were in the Stadio Olimpico the day before when Roma lost the second leg of the UEFA Cup final to Inter. In all, Conti made 402 appearances for Roma (304 in the league, 64 in the cup and 34 in Europe), scoring 47 goals - only six players have ever played more times for the Giallorossi.
A genuine man, Conti still has a special relationship with Romanisti. His success and fame have not changed him and he is known for never refusing to sign an autograph or exchange pleasantries. In 2012, he entered the club’s Hall of Fame in its inaugural year and garnered the most votes from the supporters along with Falcao, proof – as if it were needed – that his exploits and legacy has not been forgotten by the Giallorossi faithful. As the Curva Sud sing, “Di Bruno c’è n’è uno e viene da Nettuno” (“There’s only one Bruno and he comes from Nettuno”).
Miljan Miljanic: “All the Italians were great, Bruno Conti maybe a little more than the others”.
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “Italy were deserved winners. The tournament’s best player? For me it’s Bruno Conti; it was an honour for me to swap shirts with him after the final. I’ll keep it as a memory of a fantastic champion”
Michel Hidalgo: “Do you know who I’d long to have? Bruno Conti”
Bobby Charlton: “If I was the national coach of any team in the world, I would want Bruno Conti with me”
Hansi Muller: “Who is the player who I’m most worried about as a future opponent? Bruno Conti, no question”
Pele: “Bruno Conti was the true Brazilian at the World Cup. He was the best of any player I saw in Spain. I don’t think players like him are born any more”
Oscar: “For me, Conti was the best player of the World Cup”
Diego Maradona: “Conti was the real revelation of this World Cup, he’s a player of real international class. Argentina or Brazil would be delighted to have him in their team”
Daniel Bertoni: “Bruno Conti is decisive in the Azzurri’s play, he’s a true world class player. Thanks to him, Bearzot was able to solve no small amount of problems”
Jean Vincent: “Before Italy-Cameroon, I said that Conti was the only player who truly made me fearful, because he’s unpredictable and gifted with great quality. His performances during the entire World Cup showed that I was right”
Zbgniew Boniek: “I’ve seen Conti from on the pitch, on the television and from the stands – it’s almost impossible to stop him. Among other things, he has a very precise and powerful shot”
MARAZICO
He was “Core de Roma” or the Heart of Rome when Francesco Totti was still in elementary school, but Bruno Conti continues to be an idol in the minds of the giallorossi faithful.
Bruno Conti, the greatest Italian winger of all time, is one of the true legends of the Italian game. Having spent his whole career at the same club. he has a firm place in every Roma fan’s heart. A sublimely talented winger, he was an absolute nightmare for defenders, who had the displeasure of facing the electric trickster in his pomp, tearing up and down the flanks.
Conti formed an integral part of a Roma side that became legendary, consisting of players such as Agostino Di Bartolomei, Paulo Roberto Falcao, Toninho Cerezo and Roberto Pruzzo. Conti had a superb understanding with Pruzzo in particular, who he had played together with at Genoa. “Most of the time all we needed to do was look at each other”, Pruzzo recalls. Conti wore the number 7 shirt at Roma, but played on the left hand side of the pitch in order to use his powerful left foot. Rather than bludgeon the ball though, Conti caressed it as he dribbled and moved with the ball as skilfully and as agile as any Brazilian growing up on the streets of Rio de Janeiro. He was a gifted midfielder with an excellent shot, and was later nicknamed ‘Marazico’ because of his characteristics that resembled the iconic Diego Maradona and Zico.
Conti played a major part in the trophies that Roma won in the 80s, including successive Coppa Italias in 1980 and 1981 before winning Roma’s second ever scudetto in 1983. A tactical switch made by Liedholm at the start of the season proved crucial in the title win, as Di Bartolomei was moved back to protect the defence and use his passing ability to pick out Conti on the wing. From there, he was devastating. Falcao explains that Conti “had the technical skills of a South American player, and sometimes it was hard to convince him not to dribble more than he had to! He had the skill to hide the ball from the defenders”. Gianni Brera, the legendary Italian sports journalist, added that “he glides and creates things like a possessed dancer. Then he stops, you catch up with him, then he sets off again”.
Bruno played 26 times in the 82/83 title-winning season and was Roma’s key man in them winning their second ever scudetto. In a team brimming with talent, Conti shinned, creating numerous goals and was the link between attack and defence. A true Romanista, Conti claimed that winning the scudetto with Roma was an even better feeling than winning the World Cup with the Azzuri. “To win the World Cup is the best feeling that you can have doing this job, but the World Cup is seven games. To win ascudetto in the city you’ve grown up in, where you interact with the fans on a daily basis, is even better. I fulfilled a dream by winning the scudetto here in Rome when I made sacrifices for a whole year, compared to the World Cup which was seven games and where everything is decided in a month. But of course they’re both two wonderful victories”.
The World Cup itself was one of the crowning moments of Conti’s career. His performances for Roma had earned him a call up to Enzo Bearzot’s squad for the 1982 tournament, where he took the place of Franco Causio. His dribbling, passing and ability to create opportunities for his team-mates led him to be named as the player of the tournament by Pele, who also described him as “more Brazilian than the Brazilians”. It was in the final against West Germany where Conti really made his mark, winning a penalty (which was subsequently missed by Cabrini), playing a key role in the second and assisting the third goal which was scored by Alessandro Altobelli, as Italy won 3-1. Paolo Rossi, who ended up as the tournament’s top goalscorer, said that “all you had to do was tap the ball into the back of the net” because Conti would do the rest.
Further trophies followed as Bruno won the Coppa Italia in 1984, 1986 and 1991, but the European Cup was fatefully not to be added to his list of honours. The 1984 final against Liverpool was even played at the Stadio Olimpico in front of just under 70,000 fans, but after drawing 1-1 in normal time with Conti assisting for Pruzzo's equaliser, Conti missed the second penalty in the shootout and the Lupi went on to lose 4-2 on penalty kicks. He eventually retired from football in 1991, and to grasp the affection that Romanisti have for Conti and to understand what he represents to the club, perhaps it’s enough to say this. On 23rd May, 1991, Roma played a commemorative match to be Conti’s final game before he retired, and the game was attended by over 80,000 fans – around 9,000 more than the amount that were in the Stadio Olimpico the day before when Roma lost the second leg of the UEFA Cup final to Inter. In all, Conti made 402 appearances for Roma (304 in the league, 64 in the cup and 34 in Europe), scoring 47 goals - only six players have ever played more times for the Giallorossi.
A genuine man, Conti still has a special relationship with Romanisti. His success and fame have not changed him and he is known for never refusing to sign an autograph or exchange pleasantries. In 2012, he entered the club’s Hall of Fame in its inaugural year and garnered the most votes from the supporters along with Falcao, proof – as if it were needed – that his exploits and legacy has not been forgotten by the Giallorossi faithful. As the Curva Sud sing, “Di Bruno c’è n’è uno e viene da Nettuno” (“There’s only one Bruno and he comes from Nettuno”).
Miljan Miljanic: “All the Italians were great, Bruno Conti maybe a little more than the others”.
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “Italy were deserved winners. The tournament’s best player? For me it’s Bruno Conti; it was an honour for me to swap shirts with him after the final. I’ll keep it as a memory of a fantastic champion”
Michel Hidalgo: “Do you know who I’d long to have? Bruno Conti”
Bobby Charlton: “If I was the national coach of any team in the world, I would want Bruno Conti with me”
Hansi Muller: “Who is the player who I’m most worried about as a future opponent? Bruno Conti, no question”
Pele: “Bruno Conti was the true Brazilian at the World Cup. He was the best of any player I saw in Spain. I don’t think players like him are born any more”
Oscar: “For me, Conti was the best player of the World Cup”
Diego Maradona: “Conti was the real revelation of this World Cup, he’s a player of real international class. Argentina or Brazil would be delighted to have him in their team”
Daniel Bertoni: “Bruno Conti is decisive in the Azzurri’s play, he’s a true world class player. Thanks to him, Bearzot was able to solve no small amount of problems”
Jean Vincent: “Before Italy-Cameroon, I said that Conti was the only player who truly made me fearful, because he’s unpredictable and gifted with great quality. His performances during the entire World Cup showed that I was right”
Zbgniew Boniek: “I’ve seen Conti from on the pitch, on the television and from the stands – it’s almost impossible to stop him. Among other things, he has a very precise and powerful shot”
done @Tuppet
Well, Simonsen excelled as a right wing-forward and was a two-way player both capable of going on the outside and stretching play and cutting in and scoring a goal.
As too was Kempes who excelled on the inside left channels and didn't shy away from drifting out wide and taking on his full-backs when the occasion called for it, before cutting in.
Good substitution but didn't expect you to sub the best player on the pitch out that fast
.As too can mine with WC Golden Ball & Golden Shoe winner Kempes prowling the left hand channels, the trickery and pace of the ballon d'Or winning Simonsen on the right and of course Ballon d'Or winning Rivera's pulling the strings here. All that with the quicksilver and lethal Greaves and the end of it all. So yeah, there are quite a few ways my defense can punish your attack as well.
Perhaps it does or maybe not. Ferrara at RCB is a good fit to deal with Kempes, but whether he is of the requisite quality to stop Kempes is altogether a different debate - one I'm not keen to get into but at the same time I wouldn't comfortably say that Ferrara would nullify Kempes. As too were the Olsen-Perfumo duo who are fine defenders themselves, but they might find the sheer explosiveness of Greaves hard to deal with. For what it's worth, Evra, whose defensive game I rate higher than most, squares up fairly well against Simonsen.
There isn't a FB in the draft better suited to dealing with Conti than Bossis, and Ruggeri's play is indeed ideal for Seeler's centre-forward play inside the box and Reuter has the pace and dynamism to keep tabs on Loustau. Ultimately, I believe the match would be won in midfield, and I'd back my midfield unit of Stielike-Lerby-Rivera to have the edge on your midfield unit as stated in the OP. A close match nevertheless.
Well while they were capable, both of them are still primarily forwards (Especially Kempes) and would not stretch the defense like wingers or genuine wide players, there is also possibility of a lot of centrally oriented players (Kempes, Greaves, Rivera & Simonsen to some degree) clogging the same central area. An area where I happen to have 3 fantastic defenders and 2 great defensive midfielders. I think my defense would be able to hold of your brilliant but mostly central attack.
I won't deny it, I still think he was brilliant and probably the best player on the pitch. But I think it was right substitution, esp I am never going to be able to prove Mazzola's greatness without much footage. In any case, there is very little drop off in quality as Loustau is equally brilliant in his own position. He is rated as one of the greatest winger of all time, scored a bucket ton and won every single thing both for country (There was no world cup during his peak, but 3 consecutive Copa is pretty neat achievement) and club.Good substitution but didn't expect you to sub the best player on the pitch out that fast
I would say Ferrara during his career has faced many tricky and powerful forwards including the likes of Ronaldo, Batigol etc and has done very well, While I really like Kempes, but I think Ferrara can handle him. Here's his brilliant performance against Inter of Ronaldo -
Perfumo led Argentina to QF of 66 world cup, where they lost with 10 men to a controversial goal. He held off Germany of Seeler from scoring and also pretty much nullified England attack (granted Greaves was not in the team) except losing to an allegedly offside goal. I think he can square off well against Greaves.
I would also expect Loustau to get generally better of Reuter, whose attacking was always his better quality. Finally I have already disagreed with your claim of your midfield being better, I think our b2b and defensive mid pair match up well, but there is also Olsen's support from behind and the issue of Seeler being a rather more complete striker with great work rate. His pressing would be an issue, given that neither of your central defenders is renowned for their ability on ball.
Thank you.
Uns Uwe
Uwe Seeler, one of the most consistent and best forwards in the world in the 1950s and 60s and the second best German striker after Gerd Muller. While his goalscoring prowess are not in doubt by the weight of sheer stats, from RSSF -
As a goal poacher he was exquisite, able to score all type of goals - header, long ranger, volleys or tap ins here are a few examples.
Great technique, awareness and determination -
A collection of some of his goals -
Great volley from the edge of the box -
A brilliant overhead kick -
But more importantly he was also a really complete forward able to hold up the ball, drop deep to help in build up and had a really neat passing game -
Here is a neat skill, bamboozling a few defenders while providing a defense splitting pass -
Beautiful assist -
https://streamable.com/3sqx
The prime reason for having width is of course to stretch the opponent's defense and that was exactly what Kempes and Simonsen were doing for their sides. At the end of the day, whether the attackers are able to stretch play and being comfortable making runs out wide in a fluid manner, is just as (if not more) critical than 'just having conventional/genuine wide players'. Of course, there is always the danger of shoehorning central players out wide but that isn't the case with Simonsen or Kempes here. The Argentine is as versatile as it gets and was at home attacking from the inside left channels. Simonsen is playing his natural role here as the right wing-forward and he's also played alongside another inside left, Heynckes, to an extremely high level.
If those gifs on post 20 doesn't convince you, perhaps an entire video of both these players highlighting their sheer dynamism and verve, ability to probe alongside the entire forward line and stretch play just might.
That's a weird reasoning for the sub as you aren't going to prove Loustau's greatness without much footage' again?
Except of course, that is just a short snippet of the highlights (1m 30s) clearly favouring Ferrara. Here is the entire video where Ronaldo puts the fear of god into the Juve defense and nearly breaches them a few times before coming up with a magnificent assist.
Of course, no shame in that as far better defenders have struggled to keep up with El Fenomeno.
Needless to say I could easily post Kempes's master-class against the totalfootballing Dutch in the 1978 WC Final and claim that he has gotten the better of defenders such as Krol and Ferrara won't be a match for him, but of course, that would be absurd.
It isn't so much a question of their quality but rather their lack of dynamism and turn of pace which could be exploited by Greaves - once again relatively to Seeler against Ruggeri-Vierchowod, it's a game of margins after all.
Also if we are talking about credentials of our CBs, Ruggeri actually managed to win the WC, make another WC final (which he was suspended for) and nab two Copa Americas and the Confederations Cup with Argentina. And of course his individual accolades of being the South American Footballer of the Year, La liga Foreign POTY, Argentina POTY etc which I've already stated before. That's before taking into account that both him and Vierchowod are better suited to dealing with Seeler as opposed to Olsen-Perfumo against Greaves.
I'd readily concede that point, neither of my centre-backs are particularly renowned for their ball playing ability from the back, but Vierchowod was definitely no slouch on the ball and was a fine passer from the back.
Ruggeri's game on the ball is also really underrated but that's a whole other topic entirely. Either way we have Stielike (arguably the best German sweeper after Der Kaiser and Sammer) who made his name building up play from the back and taking charge of bridging defense to attack, so that should not be overlooked.
Last edited:
Don't want to go on a loop, its kinda expected that we don't agree on this, but I think Inside forwards work very differently than a winger, against a packed central defense as mine, I think you would miss a genuine width provider, esp on the left side. I'll leave at that and let the voters decide.
Well of course the point of the video was to highlight Ferrara's ability to hang with the big boys. I am not expecting him to close off a player of Kempes ability, as I assume you are not expecting your CB duo to do against Albert and Seeler or Reuter against Loustau. there would be some last ditch challanges, some desperate tackles from both side. My only point was that Ferrara matches up well against Kempes and have played against plenty of big strikers that it can conceived that he would make Kempes life very hard.
This I don't agree with. From whatever I've seen and read about Greaves, his main strength seem to be his ability to turn up at the right place. He seem to me much more of a Nistelrooy or Romario style player, than a Ronaldo style attacker. In this sense I think The positioning and anticipation ability of both Olsen and Perfumo match up perfectly against Greaves. That is not to say that Perfumo lacks dynamism, he was plenty fast for a defender, esp his acceleration seem pretty decent to me. As for quality wise against Ruggeri, these post from a forum sums it up -
While Perfumo did not win the world cup, he did not have luxury of playing with Passarella and Maradona either. Perfumo was the leader and best player of team. A clear parallel could be drawn with Figueroa, who is often rated as the only better defender than Perfumo in 60s. Its also a shame that SAPOY was only awarded since 70s and neither is the award the most reliable predictor of quality in later years since most of better SA players were playing Europe.
As I mentioned many people, chose Perfumo in their all time Argentina team, apart from examples above here is the team chosen by Argentina FA
Several former players and managers from Argentina have picked their all-time national XI in the magazine of their Football Association. Now, the AFA have picked the ones who were chosen most and formed an all time XI.
Anyway, the point here is not to paint Perfumo as a far superior defender than Ruggeri, as I am sure many people would take him over Perfumo, the point is that their is not much between the two defenders and my defense being more complimentary.
Last edited:
Indeed, but you don't just need a winger to stretch play, and besides we have Bossis to count on in that flank too. In fact Kempes-Bossis together, would provide better ability to stretch your defense than just Conti alone (as fantastic as he was), with Ferrara as the tucked in RCB being a non-factor.
He was definitely a Romario-lite player with great explosiveness and ability to turn his marker with his nimbleness and footwork - most certainly not 'just a poacher'.
George Best when choosing his greatest XI said:
Whilst both Olsen and Perfumo were no slouches, they clearly lack that physical and athletic edge required in dealing with Greaves. Not slow by any means, but not exactly quick on the turn, or off the mark either. 'Decent acceleration' would be a fair appraisal but would that be enough against Greaves? Doubt it.
Quite some bizarre exclusions in that XI, with Marzolini and Monti sticking out like a sore thumb. Once again, these select XI's or opinions on some random boards are not an indication of their quality, such as Tarantini over Marzolini which doesn't mean that the former is better than the latter - which is what you were stating in the OP on the basis of select XIs and what not.
Last edited:
Yes, that's fair enough. I don't know why I decided to focus to that extent on his choice of formation – I was in a peculiar state of mind last night, having been awake for ages, hopped up on extreme amounts of coffee.
So – it can be safely ignored, in other words.
I think the opening set up for Tuppet was fine and it's a shame Mazzolla is no longer on the park. Perhaps the way it was sold didn't quite get the buy-in but the tactical premise was solid enough.
The game looks pretty even and I'm gonna hold off voting until later.
As an aside the relative lack of interest here is reason enough to build in a break before the next draft. I don't see much value in jumping into the next one until enthusiasm has been fired up again.
The game looks pretty even and I'm gonna hold off voting until later.
As an aside the relative lack of interest here is reason enough to build in a break before the next draft. I don't see much value in jumping into the next one until enthusiasm has been fired up again.
ughh.. Finals just ain't my thing, its not even close 
.
Congratulations @Joga Bonito and @RedTiger for drafting a great team as usual, Joga might be coming close to threaten Gio's 5 time record I think.
Also ruined matches and conspiracies aside it was a great theme @Aldo , and I really enjoyed researching for it. Hopefully you'll be back soon and the drafting world will soon be up and running again. I for one can not wait for the next draft.
.Congratulations @Joga Bonito and @RedTiger for drafting a great team as usual, Joga might be coming close to threaten Gio's 5 time record I think.
Also ruined matches and conspiracies aside it was a great theme @Aldo , and I really enjoyed researching for it. Hopefully you'll be back soon and the drafting world will soon be up and running again. I for one can not wait for the next draft.
Thanks. It's been a good game. Scoreline is far too harsh, should have been a close game.
Meh, immaterial to me tbh. Always enjoy the drafting process more and haven't exactly been able to devote my time to researching on players and write-ups etc. Was only supposed to be a scout/AM in this draft due to my schedule, but @RedTiger was busy for some time, so I had to fill in temporarily - could only play on weekends for instance. RedTiger's crafted a fantastic side though. Kudos to @Balu too, who helped out as a scout, deserves as much credit as me or RedTiger for his input - with both of us being busy to some extent.
Great draft @Aldo and am looking forward to the next draft just as you. However, there might be some weight to Gio's suggestion about taking a break for a while, unless the draft junkies are keen on another draft immediately. Doesn't seem to be the case as the draft discussions thread hasn't been active for some time. I'd also say the weekend timing definitely played it's part in the relatively low turnout unfortunately.
I wrote about 10 one-liner during the initial draft and did absolutely nothing after the quarterfinal, when I took over from Aldo creating the match threads. Told you in the beginning that you better leave me out of it, if you want to win the damn thing
.I was out of town for a weekend, missed the game. Usually like Joga's team more, this one looks boring to me somehow. Maybe it's because he wasn't the one who built the foundation.
He deserves the win here, Tuppet overthought that and messed up with the final choice, imo. A shame that Mazzola was subbed out!
And what about the white-text, was I overly critical on someone who repeated their OP? My memory is failing me regularly
He deserves the win here, Tuppet overthought that and messed up with the final choice, imo. A shame that Mazzola was subbed out!
And what about the white-text, was I overly critical on someone who repeated their OP? My memory is failing me regularly
Ha, yes – that seems odd enough. I actually considered him for my team, mainly because he's a slightly interesting character (with a bit of a story to him – he played in England (for Birmingham), not least, where he was involved in several scandalous episodes, including pulling a Cantona of sorts on a spectator). He played for several European sides and had a reputation as a bit of a playboy/nightlife lover.
Why anyone would include him in an all-time Argentine XI over Marzolini is beyond me, though – it would have to be based on his early days solely: His credentials are excellent for that period, of course – World Champion and Copa winner.
As a player, though, from what I've actually seen (and that would be the World Cup stuff – he also played in '82, IIRC), he's not anything special if we're talking all-time XI material. A good player, of course, but no Marzolini.
Congratulations @Joga Bonito @RedTiger
I wrote about 10 one-liner during the initial draft and did absolutely nothing after the quarterfinal, when I took over from Aldo creating the match threads. Told you in the beginning that you better leave me out of it, if you want to win the damn thing
Yeah, meant your contributions to the drafting of the side, and reinforcement phases which were crucial.
Let's just blame @RedTiger and Balu for that
. Certainly liked the team myself and I do have a soft spot for the likes of Lerby, Bossis and Simonsen.For what it's worth I had Müller as the best right sided player and Seeler as the best striker in this draft*, so I was definitely surprised to him on the bench. Think Tuppet's side missed him dearly. Conti-Evra with Müller-Leandro on the other flanks could have been brilliant and I didn't have much, if anything, to say against his side in my OP with that being his predicted side.
*My best draft XI that I created at the start of the draft, for those interested
Seeler
Kempes Rivera Müller
Overath Stiles
Bossis Förster Schulz Andrade
Dino Zoff
Kempes Rivera Müller
Overath Stiles
Bossis Förster Schulz Andrade
Dino Zoff
And what about the white-text, was I overly critical on someone who repeated their OP? My memory is failing me regularly
Just a few tongue in cheek posts in my older threads when you caught me repeating stuff
Indeed.
Cheers.
Last edited: