Remake Draft R16 | Raees vs harms

[Joga Bonito]

Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as remakes of classic teams, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in re-creating both the individual roles and the overall functionality of the original. THIS IS NOT A FANTASY MATCH BETWEEN TWO SIDES, but rather a comparison of remakes.

Please feel free to tag the managers if you require more information about their set-ups/players etc.

Team Raees/anant:
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Team Raees/anant:


Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

Possession based, total football as per the original godfathers of totalvoetbal. lots of interchange of positions, mixture of wing play and central focus. Very similar style to Bayern under Pep Guardiola with his extreme possession and flexible position of players - difference being it will be much quick pace and direct football always seeking to penetrate and an array of world class talent.



Style - Possession

Defensive Line - High

Marking - Ramos man mark and Nesta cover but depends on opposition.

Off the ball - Aggressive closing down

On the ball - lots of interchange of positions, mixture of wing play and central focus



GOALKEEPER (PLATZER v HANDANOVIC)

PLATZER was a reliable keeper with good reflexes and jumping abilities, and a renowned penalty specialist.HANDANOVIC is also fantastic shot stopper, having among the best shots saved to shots faced ratio for last few years, a very impressive record of nearly 2 in 5 penalties saved.



CENTRE-BACKS (SESTA & SISTA v RAMOS & NESTA)

Great defender who was famous as one of the first "modern" defenders who often joined the attacks. SESTA was fast and very strong player who practiced wrestling as well, he was even Austrian champion in wrestling. Sesta played as striker in the early years, but later commanded the defence very successfully. He was very determined and strong in tackles, all opponents were feared of him. Sesta had also very powerful shot and used to score some goals from long range shooting.


If there is one defender who knows to find the back of the opponent's net, it is RAMOS. Blessed with a fantastic speed and aerial ability, Ramos may not be the exact duplicate of Sesta on basis of long range shooting, but is very similar to him, all aspects considered. A player very comfortable of the ball, someone who can lead the defence, very strong despite not the biggest of frames, and a determination that can put most players to shame.


SISTA was technically gifted defender with intelligent positional play, great elegancy, complete tactical vision, very reliable. A Rolls-Royce of a defender he never made unnecessary fouls or mistake in passing and his vision of play and anticipation allowed him to make clear cuts of the rival attack. Who better to replicate him than one of the all time greats who mirrors all his attributes and then some.. step forward new recruit NESTA.



WING HALVES (NAUSCH & WAGNER v ALABA & ALVES)

One of the cornerstones of the Wunderteam which is unusual for ‘versatile’ players. NAUSCH played in almost all positions but his favourite position was as a B2B midfielder/Full back in modern parlance, mainly on the left side as left wing half. Great condition, versatility, high technique and great intelligence and tactical awareness. He was also solid dribbler and passer, possessed also good strength


Having played in almost every position and having excelled at each of them, ALABA has the ability to read the game very well, excellent in one-on-one situations and is a solid tackler. Alaba knows when to make the tackle and when to just press, a quality that is rare. He has excellent passing capabilities, an incredible shot on him and is great at set pieces. His energy and pace often sees him beat players seamlessly.


WAGNER played mostly as right wing half and was remembered as technically strong player, which was unusual for players on his position. Besides he was known also for his great endurance and mobility. Braun was good fighter, solid and reliable player


On the Right we have D. ALVES. A fighter, a player who has an unreal crossing ability for a full back. A fantastic tackler, a good passer of the ball, the greatest testament to his technical ability is in the fact that he has been part of Barcelona's golden period and more importantly been a key part of their success. At Sevilla and at times for Brazil, he has played at right midfield before becoming a uber-attacking wing back at Barca. He more than has the credentials to feature in this position especially in a team laden with great technical players.



CENTRE MID (SMISTIK v SCHWEINSTEIGER)

SMISTIK played mainly as centre half, modern day deep lying playmaker. Like SCHWEINSTEIGER he was most known for his fantastic long balls and speed, fighting spirit, great vision and intelligence, as well as powerful play, great endurance and good technique. Pepi used to join attack very often and scored some goals, some of them from free kicks and headers as well. Smistik worked as an animal, always in perfect condition, was master in breaking the opponents attacks and starting offensive moves with his trademark long balls, but also good ball control and dribbling, precise quick one-two's and used to shoot from distance.


WINGERS (ZISCHEN & VIERTI v COSTA & WILLIAN)

ZISCHEK - Probably the best ever Austrian right winger. Like COSTA a very intelligent player who knew to make well timed runs in the box and score many goals. Zischek was very fast player, showed good understanding with his teammates in their sweet precise way of playing, had solid heading abilities and also was able to send useful crosses from the right flank


VIERTI - played as the left winger but he constantly changed positions with inside left Schall. Verti was extremly fast and elegant player with good crosses and passing range in general. He was good dribbler as well which combined with his great speed made lethal combination. But he also had good body strength and effectiveness although he sometimes didn't show some outstanding instinct in the box. Although WILLIAN is more lauded for his exploits on the right flank, he has featured on the left and we feel he mirrors Vieri’s attributes and character to a tee.


ATTACKING TRIO (SCHALL/BICAN/SINDELAR v RONALDINHO/MAKAAY/GREIZMANN)

SCHALL was very fast player cutting into centre many times and mostly, after the excellent quick one-two passes with Vierti which they perfected, scoring great abundance of goals. Schall was also known for his unselfish play and good passing range, despite being a prolific scorer. And that passing skills were mainly exploited in his lethal quick combinations with Vieri which provided hundreds of goals during their careers. Rather like RONALDINHO he was also very skilled player with excellent dribbling which, combined with his great speed, made him pretty tough to defend from. Schall had excellent understanding with his teammates, not only with Vierti and was always a good example in teamworking moves.

All in all Schall was a creative maestro and was a great goalscorer as well who had good teamworking moves as well.


BICAN was an unbelievably fast forward, who was incredibly agile and either footed. And yeah, his goalscoring record was surreal. He said in an interview that had he played in later periods, he might have been as big a name as Pele or Maradona. For this match we have selected das Phantom… MAKAAY, a dutch goalscoring legend who starred at Deportivo and Bayern Munich… possessing searing pace, brilliant eye for goal and very two footed.


SINDELAR… the prehistoric prototype of Cruyff and Messi rolled into one. Whilst we cannot do him justice just yet in terms of personnel, we believe the best fit for him in a technical and tactical sense is GREIZMANN. We believe he like Singular can drop deep, great passing, good dribbling ability. And Griezmann does satisfy the basic needs to be a F9. Add to that he is considerably agile, is fast and has great finishing.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Austria 1934/Meisl (2-3-5)......................................................................./..........................Raees/anant's Modern Remake

 

[Joga Bonito]

Team harms:
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Ajax 1995 recreation

Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

Louis Van Gaal is well-known and often ridiculed for insisting that above everything his players should comply to his philosophy. He is probably the greatest and the craziest control freak of modern football. It's not surprising that the most adventurous managers of today, Bielsa and Guardiiola both mentioned Van Gaal's Ajax as their greatest inspiration. Sure, it's easy to remember him by his failure at United, but before that he had a great and entertaining career, which started with his arguably greatest achievement - Champions League win with Ajax in 1995.

Ajax of that time is probably the least individualistic team of the last two decades. Make no mistake, it was filled with great and skillful players, and when we look back to that team we see lots of names of today's greats, who moved on after Ajax's success in Europe and had outstanding careers abroad. But all of them were just pawns in Van Gaal's game who moved them around and would've sacrificed them without second thought if that benefitted the team.

That side had a very strict frame, every player knew his place and how he was supposed to move in different situations. But make no mistake, like in a well oiled machine, it's strict nature was camouflaged by the synergy between the players and their perfect understanding of the manager's philosophy. In fact, they looked so fluid and unpredictable to neutral spectators that many compared them to Michel's total football, while in fact the fundamental ideas between these two systems are completely opposite (later that led to the infamous conflict between Van Gaal and Cruyff)

Style

Possession is the first thing that Van Gaal tries to implicate in his teams. If the team dominates possession it's bound to create more chances in front of the opposition's goal, at the same time limiting any possible threat to their own. But you shouldn't compare this to static and impotent possession of United last season, Van Gaal's Ajax was incredibly direct and positive.

If you plan to dominate the possession it's always good to have players whose task is to stretch the opposition's defence, creating space for your other players. Wingers in that Ajax side were very much tactical figures (despite right-footed Overmars being essentially an inverted winger on the left) who rarely cut inside and mostly opened up the space for more central players with their constant moving.

Defense

In 1995 Ajax fielded one of the most interesting defensive set-ups ever created. On the paper, it was a three man defence with a defensive midfielder dropping back in need. But then you have to look at the individual roles of the players to see how revolutionary Van Gaal's ideas were. Van der Sar resurrected the role of a sweeper-keeper, which almost made him an additional outfield player; Danny Blind was a no-nonsense centre back with above average vision and a tendency to join the attack when he felt that it would be productive; two fullbacks, who mostly stayed out wide, unlike the catenaccio's sidebacks for example, and were capable of supporting the attack and the defence equally good.

It's all about the spatial awareness for Louis Van Gaal - and the fluid three/four (or even five if you include Van der Sar) defensive line adapted brilliantly to the flow of the game.

Van Gaal is also known for his love of ball-playing defenders. He thinks that central midfielders are positioned too advanced and don't have neither time or space to orchestrate the game, so the actual playmakers in his team were Danny Blind, Frank de Boer and Frank Rijkaard.

Midfield

In midfield we have a pretty straightforward diamond. It's hard to separate Rijkaard from the defence or Litmanen from the attacking unit though, as they have a more complex roles. Davids and Seedorf play as a classic box-to-box midfielders, both are covering the opposition's wingers while defending and both capable of bursting forward runs to confuse the opposition and to finish the chance. Seedorf was slightly more attacking/playmaking, while Davids was a little more defensive, although both were pretty versatile and all-rounded. Rijkaard is responsible for the first pass, he is the closest thing this midfield has to a traditional playmaker. He also drops back to the defence, like I described earlier, and he has one of the most crucial roles in this system. Litmanen was as much a forward as he was a midfielder, often scoring as much as the centre forward. It was his spatial awareness and incredible off the ball movement that separated him from other great №10's - and Muller, who played a slightly modified role for the same manager, is a great fit here

Attack

2 wingers and an all-rounded number 9 up front - it's probably the most traditional part of this very unique team. Kluivert was the perfect choice for leading the line - great in build-up, calm finisher and not overly egoistic, he scored lots of goals himself and set them up for Litmanen and co. Overmars and George were the architypical wingers, mostly staying on the wings, stretching the defence and providing crosses; although, like every one else, they were capable of changing their game pattern and cutting in to score goals - especially the right-footed left winger Overmars. George played a little more conservative role - because of Reiziger's defensive approach he had to cover more ground off the ball.

Player Roles

Víctor Valdés (Edwin van der Sar) - a sweeper-keeper; good distribution and proactive playing style

Éric Abidal (Frank de Boer) - complete left back; good ball-playing passing skills (Abidal is underrated in this aspect, but de Boer was better), equally capable of going forward and tucking in as the additional centre back

Holger Badstuber (Danny Blind) - more of a libero than a sweeper; both Van Gaal and Guardiola (who modernized Ajax's philosophy) singled out Badstuber as one of their favourite players in Bayern squad. A great centre-back, a genuine playmaker from the deep and also capable of joining the attacks further forward

César Azpilicueta (Michael Reiziger) - at this point of his career, Reiziger played a defensive right back - later, playing for Barcelona, he will become a more conservative centre/side back, but in Ajax he rarely tucked in and played more like Azpilicueta plays today (when he is playing on the right). Decent on the ball, both were very fast and great athletes, I really don't see any other modern player emulating Reiziger to this extent

Javi Martínez (Frank Rijkaard) - Rijkaard is one of the most unique players of all time and a clear stand out as a GOAT defensive midfielder. But for this hybrid role of a holding midfielder/deep-lying playmaker/central defender I think Martínez is a great fit. He played as a central defender for Bielsa, Guardiola and Del Bosque and proved himself a world-class defensive midfielder at Bayern's treble winning season (look at his master-class when they destroyed Barcelona over the two legs)

Michael Essien (Edgar Davids) - Davids wasn't a complete package like he was at Juve at this point and he focused mainly on the defensive side of the game; his enormous energy levels made him the engine in Van Gaal's midfield, he ran all 90 minutes and never stopped. Essien was a very similar player back for Chelsea. Not a holding midfielder like some think of him (it was Makelele), he was a great all-rounder - energetic and combative midfielder with accurate passing and great shot on him. He has slightly inferior ball-playing skills (although he is quite underrated here), but overall I can't think of a better replacement for Davids

Clarence Seedorf (Clarence Seedorf) - №1. Freakish physicality and brilliant technique, vision and intelligence - I think you all know Seedorf's playing style

Thomas Müller (Jari Litmanen) - already explained in the tactics. Der Raumdeuter was chosen by Van Gaal himself to replicate Litmanen's role in his Bayern side. World-class (maybe the best in the world today) off the ball movement, great work rate and the absence of specified position, they both play as a midfielder/forward and are allowed tactical freedom, which isn't something you'll see often in Van Gaal's teams.

Theo Walcott (Marc Overmars) - When playing on the left they share similar qualities. Outstanding pace is the first similarities. Both are outstanding while running with the ball (Walcott is worse, obviously, but is very similar stylistically) and also capable of an intelligent movement off the ball. Overmars scored around 10-15 goals per season, which also compares well to Walcott's striker's instinct.

Patrick Kluivert (Patrick Kluivert) - №2. A complete forward. You can argue that he comes a little short compared to the true greats of the game, but it's hard to think of more equally all-rounded modern forwards

Kuba Błaszczykowski (Finidi George) - George was probably the least impressive footballer in that Ajax side - which is highlighted by his inclusion in the Mirror's "Worst CL winners XI" (incredibly harsh decision). He reminds me very much of Kanchelskis, who is, sadly, unavailable in this draft - but Kuba, hardworking and versatile side midfielder/winger is probably the best man to take on George's responsibilities in the team

 

[Joga Bonito]

Specific Tactical Manoeuvres

Spoiler: Davids and Seedorf or Ronald de Boer covering opposition's wingers

Spoiler: Badstuber's playmaking

If Badstuber is fit and in proper condition, he will always play for me

In modern soccer the players in the middle of the back four - the numbers 3 and 4 - have really become the playmakers. That's why Blind is, and Rijkaard was, so important to Ajax. The number 10, behind the strikers, certainly can't be called a playmaker, because the space in which he operates is too restricted

Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3).................................................................../..........................harms Modern Remake

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck

@Raees @anant @harms

 

[harms]

He said in an interview that had he played in later periods, he might have been as big a name as Pele or Maradona

I'm sorry, but I laughed at this. Not because it's a laughable conclusion - he clearly was an outstanding player whose reputation struggled because of the lack of footage, but I like that he makes that statement himself

Re: Bican - Mackaay; as I understand his main outstanding quality was his pace and he is said to be one of the fastest players ever - alongside Overmars, Blokhin etc. Mackaay wasn't slow but I wouldn't say that pace was his main attribute, he was more about smart positioning and impressive strike power. I get that you need to have a clinical finisher instead of Bican, but from what I've read his pace was 50% of his success - and in Mackaay you have a Van Nistelrooy-esque forward.

And a question that bothered me - why Ramos is playing on the left? He has more experience as a right back than Nesta, doesn't he?

Alves is an interesting choice, I can't decide yet if I like it or not.

Hopefully this will get the discussion going

edit: btw, it's Viertl and not Vierti. Know your players!

Well, this is dead in the water. It's so hard to judge my opponent's team though as probably no-one here can say with certainty how the said team played.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Raees @anant would love to hear more on your rationale for Alves in that role. Did Wagner play a hybrid role of sorts where he frequently drifted wide or something of that sort? Also I do echo harms thoughts on Bican, thought Aguero was a good fit for him and Makaay doesn't quite have the same searing pace imo.

 

[harms]

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of Ronaldinho emulating Sindelar and Griezmann emulating Bican. We (or at least I) know mostly about Sindelar, Bican and Smistik (Schweiny is a brilliant replacement btw), at least we have some descriptions of their actual playing style.

Sindelar was the main entertainer of this team, providing world-class creativity, vision and dribbling skills. His showy style makes me think of probably the most entertaining footballer of the 00's (or maybe even ever), plus they both are clearly the most talented footballers in their respective teams.

On the other hand, Griezmann is much more direct footballer and he much prefers effectiveness to showboating, despite possessing a great technique on the ball. But Bican is one of the greatest goalscorers in the history of the game - I think that, even if his most exceptional qualities were, undoubtedly, his finishing and pace, it's fair to assume that he had above average technique too. And stylistically they are much more similar - both make runs from the deep*, both are the main goalscoring threats in their teams, despite being second/inside forwards, and Griezmann is also very calm in front of a goal


*like this goal, for example (start at 2:22)

 

[Deleted member 101472]

seedorf and kluivert should have been blocked IMO, upon reflection. But I still think youve got the overall feel right, save for walcott as overmars

 

[Ecstatic]

seedorf and kluivert should have been blocked IMO, upon reflection. But I still think youve got the overall feel right, save for walcott as overmars

Yeah. Surprised not to see a rule specifying this.

To be fair, Seedorf & Kluivert are really perfect replacements.

 

[Ecstatic]

Let's start with AJAX. On the whole, excellent choices.

The choice of Thomas Muller for Litmanen is a little bit surprising but I know there is not the equivalent of Litmanen in the pool because some players like Enzo Schifo or Baggio were not available.

 

[Raees]

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of Ronaldinho emulating Sindelar and Griezmann emulating Bican. We (or at least I) know mostly about Sindelar, Bican and Smistik (Schweiny is a brilliant replacement btw), at least we have some descriptions of their actual playing style.

Sindelar was the main entertainer of this team, providing world-class creativity, vision and dribbling skills. His showy style makes me think of probably the most entertaining footballer of the 00's (or maybe even ever), plus they both are clearly the most talented footballers in their respective teams.

On the other hand, Griezmann is much more direct footballer and he much prefers effectiveness to showboating, despite possessing a great technique on the ball. But Bican is one of the greatest goalscorers in the history of the game - I think that, even if his most exceptional qualities were, undoubtedly, his finishing and pace, it's fair to assume that he had above average technique too. And stylistically they are much more similar - both make runs from the deep*, both are the main goalscoring threats in their teams, despite being second/inside forwards, and Griezmann is also very calm in front of a goal


*like this goal, for example (start at 2:22)

Ronaldinho was at his best from wider positions and Sindelar was a false 9 who liked to operate as a support striker and didn't function out wide. Very different players, in terms of positions and style of play.. only common ground is that they both were technically gifted wizards who could do anything with a football.

Schall was also a technically gifted maestro who drifted in from out wide and was bit like a number 10 as well, Ronaldinho is a perfect fit for him in terms of position and style of play similar .. only difference is Ronaldinho is the best player on the side and Schall wasn't.

Greizmann and Bican makes no sense at all, Greizmann is very gifted technically and has a great eye for pass .. hence why he adds so much to a pretty agricultural Atletico attack, he almost runs that attack single handedly (Creator and goalscorer hybrid) and is a average goalscorer compared to the numbers Makaay was getting, a genuinely world class consistent goalscorer who dominated a number of leagues. He was similar to Bican, fast, two footed.... Makaay was the European Golden Boot winner for the 2002–03 season for being the top scorer in Europe. Maybe not as fast as Bican but his goalscoring against top level defences, the directness of his play.. I feel our side needs that directness to it and it is similar to the directness Bican provided to a team of artists.

Regarding Alves, it was a small pool. We dont have lots of teams playing with a style similar to Austrian side. Possession based with quick passing. Add to that the qualities that we read about Wagner- Crossing, Mobility, endurance technical qualities and intelligence. At the time of him being picked he was the best possible pick who satisfied most of those qualities. I do concede he isn't regarded as the most intelligent of players but ability to pass, cross, his speed and stamina overlap the qualities we are looking for. Add to that, his tackling is very good for a player who plays as a full back.

As far as Aguero vs Makaay to Bican is concerned- Makaay was a better goalscorer IMO. Its easy to forget this, but his goalscoring averages in Spain and Germany and even at Feyenoord(end of career) were insane. All this, when he had arguably tougher defences than we have today. I agree Aguero is fast but the difference in pace between those wasn't as much IMO.

 

[harms]

seedorf and kluivert should have been blocked IMO, upon reflection. But I still think youve got the overall feel right, save for walcott as overmars

I fully agree and I even considered leaving them out on principle but I got too lazy in the end.

Again, I don't see a better Overmars replacement than Walcott - name your preferred replacement. The only worthy alternative was Nani, but Nani is too focused on having the ball at his feet and doing fancy dribbles, his unwillingness to share the ball is nothing like Overmars', while Overmars used his close control to maximize his main traits - godly pace and goalscoring. If we're talking about style, Walcott is as good as it gets - also very direct, pretty good at running with the ball (and even dribble with it, even if he gets underrated), plus his obsession to become an Arsenal's main goalscorer some day ensured his hunger for the goal (poacher-like goals, unlike some more aesthetically pleasing beauties from Nani). Quality wise he is level or two below the Dutchman though, no argument here, but style>quality in this draft, at least for me.

Spoiler: Walcott on the left

 

[harms]

The choice of Thomas Muller for Litmanen is a little bit surprising but I know there is not the equivalent of Litmanen in the pool because some players like Enzo Schifo or Baggio were not available.

It came as a surprise to me, when I first looked at Van Gaal’s Ajax from the perspective of recreating that team, that probably the toughest player to emulate would be Jari Litmanen. Historically, number ten position is filled with talent, there are tons of players with different styles and skill set to choose from - but with the d.o.b. restriction it’s actually almost impossible to find a suitable replacement for him.



I thought long and hard about this, but in the end, I singled out the qualities that made him irreplaceable in that team and chose a player who ticked most of the boxes. The comparison between them isn’t something new, actually - here’s a quote from the brilliant article about Van Gaal’s career in The Telegraph: «It is tempting to wonder whether van Gaal saw in Muller a little of his old Ajax playmaker Jari Litmanen. “It's no secret that Louis van Gaal and I have a relationship that goes a little beyond the normal relationship between coaches and players,” Muller said, presumably as his team-mates attempted to suppress a snigger». From the first glance, they are not similar at all - easy on the eye Litmanen, with exquisite first touch and shooting technique and outwardly clumsy Thomas Müller, but if we want to understand the real connection between them, we have to look deeper.



Litmanen was bought as a successor to the brilliant Dennis Bergkamp, one of the best technicians in the history of the game, who moved to Inter Milan a season later. However brilliant on the ball Litmanen was, he wasn’t as good as Dennis, it’s hard to imagine someone that were. But a few seasons later, Frank Rijkaard famously said: "Dennis Bergkamp was brilliant for Ajax, but the best No 10 we have ever had was Jari." What qualities made him the player worthy of those words? Spatial awareness, impecable understanding of the game and an outstanding work rate. Sound familiar?



Litmanen was the personification of Van Gaal’s perfect number ten. It’s not a coincidence that it was Van Gaal, who spotted Thomas Müller’s potential and made the 20-year old a starter in one of the best sides in Europe. Müller may appear rather clumsy and unsightly, but you’ll be amazed by what you see when you look closer. His movement off the ball is, probably, the best in the world at the moment. He can drop back to midfield or make a run into the box to create a numerical advantage; he is now one of the brightest stars in Bayern and German national team, having won almost every trophy that was available to him (and he may won the last one in a few months); he is on set to overtake Klose’s record and to become the All-time World Cup top scorer… all because Van Gaal saw the reminiscence of Litmanen in him. A great summary of his game was published in The Guardian: «In other words, Müller can’t beat you with his close ball control, he can’t beat you with his pace, and he can’t beat you with his dribbling skills. He just beats you».



Here’s an absolutely brilliant video with the analysis of Müller’s game

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@harms It does have a lot to do with the fact that theo walcott is spectacularly shite and overrated. 1 good game every 7 maybe and its the same " he will kick on from here" speech from pundits. He's shit, hes always been shit and he couldnt lace Mark Overmars boots.

As for replacements, i'd have had diego capel, dennis rommedhal, aubameyang, heck even arshavin before walcott. You've re-made an excellent player with one of the shittest players in the draft.

But like i said, outwith the 2 perfect replacements, i like the feel of the rest of the team hence voting for you.

 

[Enigma_87]

With Kluivert and Seedorf recreating 2 position it's like @harms is starting with wildcards Can't argue their roles or personalities at all.

I had issues with Yaya in Seedorf's place can't argue it now.

Cesar is spot on as well. My issues again are Walcott on the left(or as downcast mentioned in the team at all), Essien and probably upgrading Badstuber(not saying he's bad choice mind). Apart from that harms side is beginning to look as a favorite or this draft for me.

As for @Raees @anant I don't think they've done badly either - Alaba in that role is a excellent fit, I like the defence and Schweinsteiger obviously and Ronnie in that role. Of course Alves as mentioned and other a bit controversial roles will probably weight it in.

All in all good job guys but @harms for me takes this one.

 

[harms]

@harms It does have a lot to do with the fact that theo walcott is spectacularly shite and overrated. 1 good game every 7 maybe and its the same " he will kick on from here" speech from pundits. He's shit, hes always been shit and he couldnt lace Mark Overmars boots.

As for replacements, i'd have had diego capel, dennis rommedhal, aubameyang, heck even arshavin before walcott. You've re-made an excellent player with one of the shittest players in the draft.

But like i said, outwith the 2 perfect replacements, i like the feel of the rest of the team hence voting for you.

I'm sorry, but you let your personal bias against the player cloud your judgement. I dislike Walcott too, he has a very punchable face, he was ridiculously overhyped at the beginning of his career and he behaves like a whiny girl, judging by the reports about his last contract renewal, but he still is the best choice for my team out of the five you mentioned.

No way are Diego Capel and Dennis Rommedahl (right winger btw, did he play on the left? I can't say that I followed his career closely) better players than Theo Walcott.

Let's compare their productivity (stats are from transfermarkt):

Goals: Overmars with 30 and Theo with 31 are clearly ahead, despite Rommedahl (23) playing in an inferior league*, Eredivisie was stronger in the 90's. Capel - no comments.
Assists: Overmars has 6 and Theo has 30. It's possible that transfermarkt missed some of the assists in the 90's though; Capel has 10, Rommedahl - 35, he is ahead of Walcott, but, again, shit league.

Walcott was ridiculously overhyped as a youngster and, even if we are to assume that he was a world-class talent many claimed him to be, then we should say that he never lived up to the expectations. But he still was a regular (and in some seasons a key player) for one of the best sides in English football and a mainstay in CL. Capel with his uninspiring spell in Sevilla (or do you consider his time in Portugal as his peak?) doesn't come close, Rommedahl can't match his g+a stats even in massively inferior league*. Walcott isn't Ronaldo, he isn't Bale, he isn't even Nani, but he is a consistent provider of goals and assists on the highest level. He is quite limited, but with his speed (he lost quite a bit in the last few years though, probably because of constant injuries) and decent close control he can be a handful even for the best:

I can only speak from experience but he was one of the most dangerous players I have ever played against. Barcelona players are not scared easily but I can tell you that when we played Arsenal last season he truly worried us.

Sunday morning, Sant Just Desvern. Pep Guardiola walks into the dressing room at Barcelona's new training HQ armed, as ever, with information. The coach is mindful, though, not to overwhelm his players with detail. He gets straight to the point. "Everything he does is for a reason, he never says things for the sake of it," Xavi Hernández says. This time is no different: "Theo Walcott," Guardiola tells his players, "runs 100 metres in 10.37 seconds."

You would need a pistol to stop him.

While I was searching for the Guardiola's quote I stumbled upon transfer rumors that Pep wants him at City - I guess we'll see how much of a Walcott fan he really is.


* if you're impressed with his assist stats, I'll remind you who scored from most of those passes - it was Mateja Kežman, who scored 105 goals in just 123 league appearances for PSV and then massively flopped in Chelsea, scoring 4 in 25. That's Eredivisie for you.


Aubameyang is a very interesting suggestion, he certainly has the pace to match Overmars and he is a great goalscorer to boot (probably better than both Overmars and Walcott). But even when he played on the wing it was always as an inside-forward, he will cut inside and shoot - and repeat. Walcott is more disciplined, capable of stretching defences with his movement, he has a great cross on him and I would also say that his dribbling ability while running with the ball is a notch above. And Van Gaal's system requires someone closer to Walcott. But yeah, I would say that alongside Nani this candidate at least can be considered.

Arshavin is just an awful comparison. Lazy and not very fast playmaking №10 instead of The Roadrunner? Meh.

 

[harms]

Cesar is spot on as well. My issues again are Walcott on the left(or as downcast mentioned in the team at all), Essien and probably upgrading Badstuber(not saying he's bad choice mind). Apart from that harms side is beginning to look as a favorite or this draft for me.

Thanks for the feedback. My arguments for both Walcott and Essien stay the same, I can't find better choices; although I dislike Walcott very much and would've happily replaced him given the opportunity, but I sympathize towards Essien and I don't want to drop him.

If we are talking about "final worthiness", as it's the ultimate goal of every draft reinforcements, then I agree on Badstuber, sadly his constant injuries stopped him from being an ideal choice for the position.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Seedorf/Kluivert were discussed in the main thread.

As mentioned there we considered blocking them, but ended up concluding that it wasn't necessary, as they're far from being the most crucial cogs in the machinery. Blocking individual players who are otherwise eligible would've been awkward as such, so the realistic option would've been to scrap the entire team (which we didn't want to do for a number of reasons).

If people take it as getting two utter freebies in terms of "perfect fit", that's unfortunate and not the way we thought it would play out.

My initial comment on Seedorf amounted to this: The blueprint version is clearly not the prime version - so if the manager wants to draft Seedorf, he'll essentially be drafting a different player (namely the prime version), which is fine but hardly a problem.

The deeper we get into the draft, the more critical people should be of the choices/reinforcements. It's been stated from the very beginning that upgrading (original) players in terms of individual quality will not only be possible, but very much a part of the game. So, it's by no means certain that Kluivert will remain a perfect choice, depending on which reinforcements are available.

 

[Joga Bonito]

A decent article on the wunderteam (requires google translate though)

http://www.storiedicalcio.altervista.org/wunderteam.html

"FOR TECHNICAL PLAYERS and intelligent there
a fixed system, "he wrote in 1935." Beginning
by the goalkeeper, everyone must work together to a
accurate and effective constructive work. Sure,
Also the goalkeeper. He, like the full-backs, the median and
attackers must not throw the ball without
direction. Build! The goalkeeper may be
inspirer of an attack by passing the ball with
Precision comrades advanced lines. the
the same constructive spirit, but more so,
they must also be animated full-backs and median.
All eleven men in the team shall
be always on the move, to not allow
opponent to guess their intentions. The
They left median, with a sudden but
timely cross to the right wing, can
determining an advantageous reversal
the trend of a game. Always in action and
constantly directed towards the goal!
Even a median, if the opportunity presents itself, can
through the central advance by surprise since
under the other team's net and score his
goal. Of course, a companion must
The champion Mathias "onionskin" Sindelar. He committed suicide two years after the annexation of Austria to the Reich
immediately take the place of the median that has moved to the attack. According to the time and
according to the situation you have to pass the ball high ground or satin, with mild or strong touch, with passage
long or short. Do not ever go on the feet of his companion, but ahead of him, in free space,
not to arrest him in his advance. So this is my system: no system. Intelligence,
Speed and surprise are the elements of success. For us, the playing method continental much
far cheaper and more effective it is which is to create safe opportunities to score
through precise combinations, clever, cleverly interwoven, knowingly processed separately from
"saber" drawn at random. "

Another decent link which goes more in depth into the political landscapes of Austria during the wunderteam's era

http://www.cafefutebol.net/2013/12/23/the-anschluss-match-and-the-martyrdom-of-matthias-sindelar/





A few interesting reads on how it was Scotland who helped inspire the beginnings of the wunderteam and the Danubian School. There's also more about it in Inverting the Pyramid where it was the Scots who more or less, made the first steps in the development of proper tactics etc, so much so that the English started following it iirc.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/apr/22/world-cup-stunning-moments-austria-wunderteam

The story of football in Austria goes back to the late 19th century and the European expansion of British trade. As Willy Meisl, whose brother Hugo was the managerial mastermind behind the Wunderteam, points out in his seminal Soccer Revolution, the Austrian public took to the game with gusto and five years after the first match between two Vienna sides in 1894, the first British touring team turned up at the Westbahnhof. It didn't go particularly well for the hosts – Oxford University beat a combined Vienna XI 15-0 on Easter Sunday 1899. Another game on Easter Monday finished 13-0. A year later the first professional side visited – Southampton again took on a combined team, this time winning only 6-0.

But the key visit came in 1905. Rangers hammered teams just as the Saints and the students had done a few years before, but they did it in such style that Austrian football would be moulded in their image over the next three decades (in turn Rangers were so impressed with the young goalkeeper Karl Pekarna that they gave him a contract and took him back to Glasgow). Pass and move became the Austrian groove.

More than a Game; How Scotland Shaped World Football


Scotland and the Danubian School

On 16th May 1931 the Austrian ‘Wunderteam’ was born when the Scotland national team was comprehensively defeated 5-0 in Vienna. Whilst the Scotland side was minus players from Celtic and Rangers the defeat nevertheless was significant, being the first time that the Scots had lost to a team from Continental Europe. A return match was arranged at Hampden Park in 1933. Reminiscing about this match two decades later, Austrian sports journalist Willy Meisl, whose legendary brother Hugo had managed the Austrian team, provides the following observation,
Still, twenty years ago hardened Scottish club directors had tears of joy in their eyes when they saw the Austrians draw with Scotland 2-2 in Glasgow and remarked ruefully: ‘That’s the game we used to play twenty years ago.’
Scotland’s short passing game had taken root in Central Europe during the early decades of the twentieth century. It was in Vienna, Budapest and Prague in particular where this distinctive brand of football would flourish. The three great cities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire were cradles of the emerging game in Central Europe, linked together by the Royal House of Habsburg and, more permanently, by the River Danube. As a vibrant football culture emerged it would be the majestic river, the second longest in Europe, which would lend its name to the style. Based around team work and technical precision the short passing style of the Austrians, Hungarians and Czechs would become known as the Danubian School. If the school was ‘Danubian’ then the early teachers were for the most part ‘Clyde built’, emanating from Glasgow and from many of the towns and villages which surround Scotland’s third longest river.

Jacky Robertson pictured wearing his Scotland cap
Dumbarton alone can boast two former sons with links to clubs in Budapest and Prague. The first was John Tait Robertson, who started off his senior career with Greenock Morton before moving south to Everton and Southampton. Having made the break through into the Scotland national team ‘Jacky’ headed north to Rangers and would spend six years at Ibrox Park, winning the majority of his 16 caps with the Glasgow club. He would go on to become player-manager of Chelsea in the London club’s inaugural season. By 1911 Robertson was in Budapest coaching the MTK Club and would help to raise the standards of the Hungarian game to match that of the Austrians. During this period Celtic became the first Scottish club to visit Hungary. The Parkhead side travelled to Budapest in 1911 and 1914.

Scotland internationalist Johnny Madden
Another ‘Son of the Rock’ was John William Madden who had played for Dumbarton, Gainsborough Trinity, Grimsby Town, Celtic, Dundee and Tottenham Hotspur. Madden, like Robertson, was an international player and scored a remarkable five goals in just two appearances for Scotland. A shipyard riveter to trade, Madden faced the prospect of going back to building ships on the Clyde as his playing career came to an end. In 1905 an opportunity to coach in Prague came along and he never looked back, taking charge of the Slavia club for 25 years. He would lead Slavia to the Mitropa Cup Final, a competition open to teams from Central Europe and a forerunner to the UEFA competitions of today. He also coached the Czechoslovakian national team and led them to the final of the Olympic Games football tournament in 1920.
In the Bohemian capital of Prague, the Sparta club was a great rival to Slavia and they too would enlist the services of a Scottish coach. John Dick had started his career with Airdrieonians before moving to Arsenal in 1898 where he would enjoy a 14 year association with the north London club. After a spell coaching the Arsenal reserves, Dick moved to Prague in 1912 as trainer of Deutscher FC before heading on to Sparta where he would bring much success in two spells between 1919 and 1931. Sparta would go on to win the Mitropa Cup in 1927.

John Dick, front row centre, captain of Arsenal, 1905
Vienna was arguably the first of the three cities to embrace the philosophy of the Danubian School. Willy Meisl attributes the visit of Rangers to Vienna in 1904 as having a major impact in the introduction of the short passing game there. The admiration was not completely one sided; Rangers officials during the tour were impressed by a young Austrian goalkeeper by the name of Karl Pekarna. The Ibrox club signed Pekarna, making him the first professional player in Austrian football history. Celtic would also visit the Austrian capital in 1904, 1911 and 1914.
Arguably the greatest coach in the development of Austrian and Hungarian football was not a Scot but an Englishman of Irish descent. Jimmy Hogan coached in Austria as early as 1911 and followed Jacky Robertson to the MTK Club of Budapest. Hogan himself taught the ethos of the Scottish short passing game in his travels across Europe. As a young professional footballer at Fulham he had learned the technical refinements of the playing style from ‘Scotch Professors’ at the club. One of his coaches at Fulham was Jock Hamilton, originally from Ayr, who would go on to become the first professional coach in Brazil - but that is another story!​

 

[Joga Bonito]

Regarding Alves, it was a small pool. We dont have lots of teams playing with a style similar to Austrian side. Possession based with quick passing. Add to that the qualities that we read about Wagner- Crossing, Mobility, endurance technical qualities and intelligence. At the time of him being picked he was the best possible pick who satisfied most of those qualities. I do concede he isn't regarded as the most intelligent of players but ability to pass, cross, his speed and stamina overlap the qualities we are looking for. Add to that, his tackling is very good for a player who plays as a full back.

I'd actually say that his intelligence is one of his standout qualities imo. He was really a cultured full-back who was excellent technically and a really creative one to boot. He clearly was much more than a grafting wing-back but a really talented player on the ball. He forged a truly brilliant partnership with Messi on the right, and more so than his runs down the right, it was his ability on the ball which contributed more to that imo.



He was also more or less playmaker as a right back for Sevilla and a throwback to the ages when playmaking full-backs such as Junior, N.Santos, Brehme etc were relatively more common. Just not a great defender though, with regards to his positioning and reading of the game, which is a shame.

 

[harms]

Tough luck @Raees & @anant , I guess having a side from the 30's was always going to be a turn-off for most voters. You did a great job!

 

[Ecstatic]

Tough luck @Raees & @anant , I guess having a side from the 30's was always going to be a turn-off for most voters. You did a great job!

No, the goal scored today by Blaszczykowski has made the crucial difference.

TBH, I don't know GrEizmann and am inclined to favour the most involved managers.

If people take it as getting two utter freebies in terms of "perfect fit", that's unfortunate and not the way we thought it would play out.

My initial comment on Seedorf amounted to this: The blueprint version is clearly not the prime version - so if the manager wants to draft Seedorf, he'll essentially be drafting a different player (namely the prime version), which is fine but hardly a problem.

The deeper we get into the draft, the more critical people should be of the choices/reinforcements. It's been stated from the very beginning that upgrading (original) players in terms of individual quality will not only be possible, but very much a part of the game. So, it's by no means certain that Kluivert will remain a perfect choice, depending on which reinforcements are available.

Funny comment. Kluivert is not the best player to play the role of Kluivert.

 

[harms]

Funny comment. Kluivert is not the best player to play the role of Kluivert.

Tbf this logic works with some players - for example you wouldn't choose today's Cristiano to replicate a showy United's right winger from 2006/07. But neither Kluivert nor Seedorf changed their game drastically in the later years, it was more of a steady growth (although Seedorf became less physical and more technical on the wrong side of 30's)

 

[Raees]

Tough luck @Raees & @anant , I guess having a side from the 30's was always going to be a turn-off for most voters. You did a great job!

Thanks mate, best of luck with the rest of the tournament!

 

[anant]

Tough luck @Raees & @anant , I guess having a side from the 30's was always going to be a turn-off for most voters. You did a great job!

Congrats and best of luck for future rounds

 

[Ecstatic]

Tbf this logic works with some players - for example you wouldn't choose today's Cristiano to replicate a showy United's right winger from 2006/07. But neither Kluivert nor Seedorf changed their game drastically in the later years, it was more of a steady growth (although Seedorf became less physical and more technical on the wrong side of 30's)

Igor Tudor retired at the age of 30 and he is now a 38-years-old politician. Do you mean I used the political version of Tudor?

 

[harms]

Igor Tudor retired at the age of 30 and he is now a 38-years-old politician. Do you mean I used the political version of Tudor?

No but his time at Real Madrid is clearly his peak, and he became pretty much the opposite of a player he was for us in 06/07

 

[Ecstatic]

No but his time at Real Madrid is clearly his peak, and he became pretty much the opposite of a player he was for us in 06/07

I agree with you but - sorry if I'm wrong - there isn't a rule specifying we have to refer to a 'career peak'.

 

[harms]

I agree with you but - sorry if I'm wrong - there isn't a rule specifying we have to refer to a 'career peak'.

There probably isn't one

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Funny comment. Kluivert is not the best player to play the role of Kluivert.

You think it's impossible to upgrade an 18 year old Kluivert within the system? It isn't possible to dream up a striker born after the cutoff who is better individually and who can fill the role?

 

[harms]

You think it's impossible to upgrade an 18 year old Kluivert within the system? It isn't possible to dream up a striker born after the cutoff who is better individually and who can fill the role?

Not sure if Ronaldo (the best and the most complete forward in the pool) would've been an upgrade, it seems cruel to restrict him to a tactical role. Actually I can't think of many strikers as complete and determined as a young Kluivert. Initially I considered Saha and Benzema, although I'm still not sure about either of them in that role.

Finally though of a player better suited to replace Davids than Essien, watching Renato Sanches play today. But if we are considering players credentials too, he's probably a questionable choice for the later stages of the draft

 

[Ecstatic]

You think it's impossible to upgrade an 18 year old Kluivert within the system? It isn't possible to dream up a striker born after the cutoff who is better individually and who can fill the role?

What is the purpose of the draft? Upgrade a maximum of players or recreate a style of play?

 

[harms]

Finally an actual discussion! Too bad the game is already over

 

[Ecstatic]

Finally an actual discussion! Too bad the game is already over

 

[Enigma_87]

You think it's impossible to upgrade an 18 year old Kluivert within the system? It isn't possible to dream up a striker born after the cutoff who is better individually and who can fill the role?

I don't see the point harms to try to upgrade either of them to be honest. They are the closest representation(given it's themselves) and in Seedorf's example you can't really get a better profile player than him in the pool for that position.

Better upgrade other members of the team, namely Badstuber and Walcott and I think harms is pretty set for the final.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

With due respect to what several of you say above, I think you're missing the point to some degree.

The point is that the role actually played by an 18 year old Kluivert isn't so unique that it can't be filled by a striker who is similar in terms of traits, and better in terms of overall quality.

Whether there's a very good reason to do so is another matter entirely, and will depend on availability and other factors.

But the blueprint is the '95 final: Kluivert came on as a sub in that match - and scored the winner. He played for 20 minutes. That's the context. If harms had wanted to, he could have ignored Kluivert completely - and re-created De Boer instead. Hence, the conclusion mentioned above: While the player himself is conspicuous, the role (or rather roles, given that the blueprint - uniquely - gives the manager a choice between two different originals) isn't unique enough to warrant blocking Kluivert.

Perhaps it was a mistake - but like I said, the realistic alternative was to scrap the entire team.

 

[Ecstatic]

With due respect to what several of you say above, I think you're missing the point to some degree.

The point is that the role actually played by an 18 year old Kluivert isn't so unique that it can't be filled by a striker who is similar in terms of traits, and better in terms of overall quality.

Whether there's a very good reason to do so is another matter entirely, and will depend on availability and other factors.

But the blueprint is the '95 final: Kluivert came on as a sub in that match - and scored the winner. He played for 20 minutes. That's the context. If harms had wanted to, he could have ignored Kluivert completely - and re-created De Boer instead. Hence, the conclusion mentioned above: While the player himself is conspicuous, the role (or rather roles, given that the blueprint - uniquely - gives the manager a choice between two different originals) isn't unique enough to warrant blocking Kluivert.

Perhaps it was a mistake - but like I said, the realistic alternative was to scrap the entire team.

Yes, the '83 match is in some ways problematic. But let's not over-complicate this: You're not supposed to assemble a team capable of reproducing the actual performance of Juventus in that particular match (that would be a bit bizarre).
It was chosen as a blueprint because Bettega features in the line-up, and he was considered a more interesting player than his successors in the role. The role, as such, is as harms describes it above - a hybrid role of sorts which involves covering plenty of ground.

Inconsistency?

BTW, Kluivert was not a secondary player: 21 goals in 37 games & best AJAX scorer in the Dutch League.

Let's move on

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Inconsistency?

BTW, Kluivert was not a secondary player: 21 goals in 37 games & best AJAX scorer in the Dutch League.

Let's move on

By all means.

But I think you're mixing the cards. I never said Kluivert was a "secondary player", I said his role wasn't the most crucial one when remaking the particular XI which happens to be the blueprint here. His role is that of an impact sub - and he could have been ignored in the remake as such (harms could have re-created De Boer instead - that's a pretty clear indication of how crucial he is). If he had been a prime player in a unique role, it would have been a clear blunder not to block him. But he wasn't considered as such - and I still don't think he is.

The meaning of the comment you quoted above should be pretty clear: Juventus were crap in that match. They were tactically outplayed and lost. It would be absurd if the manager was tasked with drafting players with a view to reflecting that level of performance.

So, one has to separate the general and the particular points here: players and roles, performances and systems, apples and oranges.

In hindsight, though, there are probably several things which could have been done differently when it comes to both which teams were selected - and which blueprints were used. Some lessons will no doubt have been learned as far as that is concerned - but all in all I think it hasn't been bad for an experimental draft of this sort.

 

[Joga Bonito]

But the blueprint is the '95 final: Kluivert came on as a sub in that match - and scored the winner. He played for 20 minutes. That's the context. If harms had wanted to, he could have ignored Kluivert completely - and re-created De Boer instead. Hence, the conclusion mentioned above: While the player himself is conspicuous, the role (or rather roles, given that the blueprint - uniquely - gives the manager a choice between two different originals) isn't unique enough to warrant blocking Kluivert.

Actually I gave harms the blueprint of a random CL match (quarter final) from 1995 so as to ensure that Kluivert was in the blueprint as opposed to De Boer, who imo was a rather difficult and an unique player to recreate (several players of that ilk in this draft but an utility player with the versatility of De Boer was something else imo, as reflected by the discussion on his role in harm's last match). Kluivert was a relatively more feasible recreation as such and he was thus assigned to the Ajax blueprint.

Kluivert and Seedorf shall be chosen

http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/1019796



However, I do agree that Kluivert wasn't exactly a crucial player for them, nor a critical cog for them in the LVG's machinery - as opposed to the likes of Rijkaard, Blind, Litmanen etc. Whilst Kluivert was the safe and straightforward choice, I definitely think he was up-gradable in that system and someone like Lewandowski, who boasts the same impressive all-round game that Kluivert did - albeit to a higher level - could have easily slotted in seamlessly there. Hard to go wrong with Kluivert though, obviously.