Redcafe ODI Cricket Draft- Crappy vs Zing

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics and balance?

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

KM

I’m afraid I just blue myself
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
49,917
Interval will as usual post the writeups.
 
Please vote on basis of performances post 1990 only

Crappy
Jayasuriya
Gayle
Hick
Andy Flower
Steve Waugh
Jonty Rhodes
Umar Akmal
Jacob Oram
Ian Bishop
Waqar Younis
Mushtaq Ahmed

12th man: Trott

Explanation
crappycraperson said:
Crappy's Glorious Basterds

1. Sanath Jayasuriya- 13,430 runs @ 32.36 and 91.21 SR. 28 Hundreds. 323 wickets @ 36.75!

2. Chris Gayle - 8360 runs @ 39.45 and 84.45 SR. 20 hundreds. 156 wickets!

3. Greame Hick - 3846 runs @ 37.33 and 74.08 SR.

4. Andy Flower(wk) - 6786 runs @ 35.30, 74.59 SR.

5. Steve Waugh(c) - 7569 runs @ 32.90 and 75.9 SR. 195 wickets @ 34.67

6. Jonty Rhodes - 5935 runs @ 35.11 and 80.90 SR

7. Umar Akmal - 1976 runs @ 38.0 and 84.77 SR.

8. Jacob Oram - 2432 runs @ 24.32 and 86.67 SR / 173 wickets @ 29.82 and 4.37 econ

9. Ian Bishop - 83 matches, 118 wickets @ 26.50 and 4.33 econ. 7 four-wicket hauls!

10. Waqar Younis - 416 wickts @ 23.45 and 4.68 econ. SR- 30.5...

11. Mustaq Ahmed- 161 wickets @ 33.29 and 4.26 econ


12th man - J. Trott - 2208 runs @ 49.06 and 74.89 SR.

Bowling

Waqar.. one of the best bowlers in any format, but even better in the one day format for me. His strike rate is unmatchable by another tpp bowler be it Mcgrath or Akram. Bishop, very good one day record for the amount of matches he played, more importantly another attacking bowler, there to fetch me wickets. Oram will be my specialist one day bowler. He use his height well to give his deliveries an uneasy bounce either to stiffle batsmen or clean them up on helpful wickets. Other medium pace option - Steve Waugh. A very handy record as a bowler in ODIs, and has bowled his full quota in many a matches for Oz.

Spin options - Mushtaq Ahmed, Jayasuriya, Gayle. Mushtaq ahmed, leg spinner supreme. Jayasuriya is much much more than a part timer, has 323 wicket after all to his name. One of those spinners, who is more deadly on spin friendly wickets than even premier spinners. Both and him Gayle also are typical one day spinners in the sense that they can be used to get rid of overs quickly in middle overs. Both also capable of bowling crucial overs in tight situations

Having about 7 bowling options in an one day scene is very very handy given one of your regular bowlers could have an off day.

Batting

Jayasuriya and Gayle----- Ponder over that for a bit. Both, in their prime, coming out to open against any bowling attack. If even one sticks around for first 20 overs, that's a massive advantage. If both stick around for that amount of time, that's the game almost won. But that's not it, both are capable of playing the big innings. Both have a combined 58 centuries.

Flower and Waugh - Solid as rock. Will anchor the innings when needed or recover it if top order fails. With my two openers it can be a high risk-reward scenario and these two provide the landing pad. If they fail, I have the best two fighters out there to save the innings. More importantly, Steve Waugh true to his nature reserved his best for when Oz needed it the most.

Rhodes- Forget just batting where he had a very health 37 average, he will save feck knows how many runs in the field. Priceless in one day setting

Umar Akmal - Prodigious talent, used to batting late down, will help accelerate or finish innings. Has an excellent one day record already. Can also be promoted if quick scoring is needed.

Omar- Big hitter who can be promoted when required or score quickly at the end of innings. Is also no mug and can hold his end if required. Tail - a bit iff perhaps but you can't have everything
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v/s


Zing
Dinesh Chandimal
Stephen Fleming
Ricky Ponting
Martin Crowe
Yuvraj Singh
Eoin Morgan
Angelo Mathews
Graeme Swann
Shane Bond
Shoaib Akthar
Nathan Bracken


12th man: Dinesh Karthik

Explanation
zing said:
My team will be:

Dinesh Chandimal
Stephen Fleming
Ricky Ponting
Martin Crowe
Yuvraj Singh
Eoin Morgan
Angelo Mathews
Graeme Swann
Shane Bond
Shoaib Akthar
Bracken

Summary:

Chandimal:
Superbly talented cricketer. He will by my wicket-keeper. Touted as the next Sri Lankan big batsman. He doesn't keep wickets much for SL as Sangakarra does that, but rose up the ranks as a specialist keeper.

Averages 50+ in SA, England and SA in ODIs in 20 matches. Overall career average of 34 and an average of 40 as wicket-keeper, but a small sample set of 10 matches.

Stephen Fleming
Average of 33 over 280 matches. 8 centuries. Great slip fielder. Will be captain of my side.
Ricky Ponting:

Don't need to say anything here.

Martin Crowe:

Overall career average of 38. Averages 44+ post 90s.
Played at #4 starting from 1992, including the 1992 world cup. Averages a whopping 66 at #4. Top scorer at the 1992 world cup and man of the series.

Yuvraj Singh:

One of the great modern day ODI players. Average of 38 with the bat and a very, very good part-time bowler, great arm ball and excellent control. Will be one of my 5th bowlers. Player of the series in the last 50 over world cup for both runs and wickets.

Eoin Morgan:

41 average in 85 matches. Ridiculously good player. One of the great modern day finishers. Not seen a guy read the game as well as he does, since Michael Bevan.

Angelo Mathews:
Averages 34 in 81 matches. Averages 50+ in Australia and England. Won more than a few games batting with the tail for Sri Lanka. Very good hitter. Just an all-round cricketer. Will share 5th bowling duties with Yuvraj Singh. Averages 36 with the ball, but a very decent, economical bowler(4.6).

Graeme Swann:
Averages 26 with the ball. Fantastic against left-hand batsmen. Crappy's got Jayasuriya, Gayle, Flower, Oram in there. Good lower-order hitter.

Bond:

Average of 21 with the ball. Everyone will know how devastating he was at his peak. Lovely on the eyes when he ran in to bowl, too.

Akthar:
Average of 25 with the ball. Pure pace. Will open the bowling along with Bond.

Bracken:
Will be my first-change bowler. Averages 24 with the ball. Ridiculously accurate and economical.
Tactics:

I went for a strong bowling unit as I believe 5 good bowlers allow no batsmen to get away.. My bowling has everything.. two very fast quicks, a left arm seamer, an off-spinner and the part time Yuvraj Singh who will turn it the other way, with Mathews providing medium pace. It may be ODI, but wickets are the best thing that can drag down run-rates.

I have match-winners all over the batting line-up and
very good hitters at 5/6/7. People who can accelerate when they want to.

I also have in Crowe, Ponting, Yuvraj, three players who have done it on the big occasion.

An excellent fielding unit, as well.
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fecking hell...I'm going to have to start going player by player.
 
Bracken is missing from the 2nd team. Put it in before people start voting.
 
I think this might turn out to be the toughest round robin match. You missed out on Bracken in zing's lineup BTW.

What I will say is I don't rate zing's openers much, he does have Pointing at 3 to fall back on but Fleming and Chandimal as the front 2 is the very definition of meh for me. His big plus ofcourse is Pointing + Crowe. There won't be a better 3 and 4 in this draft but then I doubt there are better openers than Gayle + Jayasuriya.

Other than that I rate Yuvraj but I will have Steve Waugh in my side every single time be it in ODIs, tests or even T20. Also keep in mind that when Yuvi was at his absolute peak as a batsmen he was not such a good fifth bowler and now when his bowling is pretty good, he is an alright batsman at best, still devastating but very inconsistent.

Eoin Morgan is hugely overrated. His average of 41 is due to the modern day pitches. I could have played Trott who has an average of 49... To compare him to Bevan is blasphemy IMO.

Coming back to bowling, neither of Bond or Akhtar touch Waqar. Swann gets rated generously due to bowling in a era with no class spinners around.. if Mustaq Ahmed was bowling now he would get similar plaudits. Any idea zing has of Swann troubling Gayle, Jaya, Waugh, Flower or Akmal is grossly misplaced. Even his pacers are liable to be blasted out of the park by my front two.

I think it will be a close run thing but I have more match winners in my team than zing. And in an ODI setting, single players can win you matches more than in a test setting. I have Gayle, Jayasuriya, Steve Waugh and Waqar- all capable of winning a match on their own. No way he has 4 equal cricketers to those in his team.
 
Tough one to call. I like Zing's bowling attack more but crappy's batting is better.
 
Interval Level said:
True.

I think neither team is worse off than the others. But then again, I don't know players like Morgan so will look them up.

Crappy's middle order looks flimsy. How many hundreds do his batsmen from 3-6 have?
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It was different in 90s. 250 was a winning score, players batting below no.3 did not get opportunity to score hundreds every other game. That's also the reason SR thing is skewed in favour of batsmen of current era.

Even Martin Crowe has only 4 hundreds to his name, I doubt he will be termed a flimsy batsmen.
 
Interval Level said:
Yiikes. Crappy with a big lead already.
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I was beating you 6-1 in the Test draft before Lehmann waddled out to the pitch.

Crappy makes some valid points, and some strange ones. Waugh was a good one day cricketer, that's about it. His captaincy and Test aura sometimes leads to some flattering views on hindsight. Yuvraj is a matchwinner and inconsistent middle order batsman in a very equal measure to him, I'd say.

Mushi was a good bowler, no doubt, but saying he would do better in present times doesn't strike me as very accurate. Mushi was inconsistent with his line and length in ODI's, a carnal sin. Average variations (he built in a few more in his later years in county cricket), and hardly subtle, at that.

That said, the point about zings opening batsmen holds true. Chandimal is an unknown quantity at best. I can't personally remember a single innings of his. I just had to google his face. Fleming needed a plunderer with him up there.
 
Donadol said:
I was beating you 6-1 in the Test draft before Lehmann waddled out to the pitch.

Crappy makes some valid points, and some strange ones. Waugh was a good one day cricketer, that's about it. His captaincy and Test aura sometimes leads to some flattering views on hindsight. Yuvraj is a matchwinner and inconsistent middle order batsman in a very equal measure to him, I'd say.

Mushi was a good bowler, no doubt, but saying he would do better in present times doesn't strike me as very accurate. Mushi was inconsistent with his line and length in ODI's, a carnal sin. Average variations (he built in a few more in his later years in county cricket), and hardly subtle, at that.

That said, the point about zings opening batsmen holds true. Chandimal is an unknown quantity at best. I can't personally remember a single innings of his. I just had to google his face. Fleming needed a plunderer with him up there.
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I did't say Mushi would do better now. I just said he would get more plaudits now because there are hardly any good spinners about. Ajmal has played about 20 tests and 50 ODIs and he has already been crowned the best spinner about. Same thing happened with Swann after he had one good year, he is yet to prove himself against subcontinental teams. When Ahmed was about, he was in the company of Murali, Warne, Saqlain, Kumble.

Steve Waugh as I said reserved his best for when Oz needed it the most. Take 99 WC, QF situation against SA, century chasing a target above 260. Followed it up by rescuing Oz from a 4 down situation in SF against SA again. IIRC he also scored 70 odd in 96 WC QF against NZ chasing 280 odd in Chennai.
 
crappycraperson said:
It was different in 90s. 250 was a winning score, players batting below no.3 did not get opportunity to score hundreds every other game. That's also the reason SR thing is skewed in favour of batsmen of current era.

Even Martin Crowe has only 4 hundreds to his name, I doubt he will be termed a flimsy batsmen.
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While I agree about the 250 runs and slowness of runs in the early to mid 90s, your batsmen don't rank up there as innings builders. My point was a lack of innings builders. I think only Hick and Jayasuriya provide that.

Donadol said:
It's a fkin punchable face, btw.
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:lol: true
 
Hmm, well. Gayle makes a habit of hitting shit bowlers and in my line-up, I have none. Saying that Steve Waugh is a match winner in ODIs is ridiculous, IMO. He has 3 hundreds from 330 matches. That's less than 1 every 100 matches. He does bat lower down the order, but even at that position, he averages 32 when generally you see people with more not outs and inflated averages.

Crappy has a great opening combination, but Gayle, has he ever done it against strong bowlers? Bond, Akthar and Bracken aren't like today's bowlers. We saw how Gayle struggled yesterday against Kulasekara of all people when the ball swung a little.

His middle order is very weak. Don't be deceived by Gayle knocking around the likes of Starc and Kyle Mills. If you look past that, it's a very ordinary middle order.

His bowling is very, very weak. I admit that my openers are pretty decent at best. But clearly Chandimal's got the quality having done it against Steyn and Morkel. I don't need him to score big centuries, I just need decent 50s from him and my middle-order comes into play.

Also, note that all we need to do is play out Waqar. Crappy's 4th bowler will be Jayasuriya, who averages 37. Oram, who is a trundler at best would get destroyed by any of my middle order, who will be facing him when he comes on.

He's effectively playing with 3 bowlers and Mushtaq of the 3 averages 33.


It's basically 30 overs of 3 players who average 37 (Jayasuriya), 33(Mushtaq), 30(Oram). And Oram's not going to get wickets against my middle order.

I would also like to point out that Yuvraj in the 2011 WC averaged 86, with 370 runs and 15 wickets. Crappy's point about Yuvraj's bowling and batting not being good at the same time is clearly not true.

It's a simple question.. can my team make 270 against his attack? I'd say absolutely... if you play off Waqar at 4 per over or so, rest are there for the taking. Can his team make 270? One wicket and they'll be on the ice.

My middle order doesnt even need to play off Waqar.. they're good enough to attack him.

I have 5 good bowlers bowling. I have variety. Spinners that turn it either way and right arm/left arm.
 
Gone for zing but it was close. Wil post why later.
 
zing said:
Hmm, well. Gayle makes a habit of hitting shit bowlers and in my line-up, I have none. Saying that Steve Waugh is a match winner in ODIs is ridiculous, IMO. He has 3 hundreds from 330 matches. That's less than 1 every 100 matches. He does bat lower down the order, but even at that position, he averages 32 when generally you see people with more not outs and inflated averages.

Crappy has a great opening combination, but Gayle, has he ever done it against strong bowlers? Bond, Akthar and Bracken aren't like today's bowlers. We saw how Gayle struggled yesterday against Kulasekara of all people when the ball swung a little.

His middle order is very weak. Don't be deceived by Gayle knocking around the likes of Starc and Kyle Mills. If you look past that, it's a very ordinary middle order.

His bowling is very, very weak. I admit that my openers are pretty decent at best. But clearly Chandimal's got the quality having done it against Steyn and Morkel. I don't need him to score big centuries, I just need decent 50s from him and my middle-order comes into play.

Also, note that all we need to do is play out Waqar. Crappy's 4th bowler will be Jayasuriya, who averages 37. Oram, who is a trundler at best would get destroyed by any of my middle order, who will be facing him when he comes on.

He's effectively playing with 3 bowlers and Mushtaq of the 3 averages 33.


It's basically 30 overs of 3 players who average 37 (Jayasuriya), 33(Mushtaq), 30(Oram). And Oram's not going to get wickets against my middle order.

I would also like to point out that Yuvraj in the 2011 WC averaged 86, with 370 runs and 15 wickets. Crappy's point about Yuvraj's bowling and batting not being good at the same time is clearly not true.

It's a simple question.. can my team make 270 against his attack? I'd say absolutely... if you play off Waqar at 4 per over or so, rest are there for the taking. Can his team make 270? One wicket and they'll be on the ice.

My middle order doesnt even need to play off Waqar.. they're good enough to attack him.

I have 5 good bowlers bowling. I have variety. Spinners that turn it either way and right arm/left arm.
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Errr my fourth bowler is Oram who averages 29.82. He has even opened the bowling for NZ on many occasions. My fifth bowlers - Jayasuriya, Gayle and Waugh. All 3 capable of bowling full 10 overs.

Talk of Gayle only plundering average bowlers is just baseless. Talk of weak middle order is also strange. Andy Flower and Waugh don't have inflated averages due to playing in a different era. Both played the anchor role well for their teams whenever needed and also threw their bat around if chasing a big score. I could have picked someone like Lehman who has a better average than both, that does not make him a better player. They are followed by Rhodes who is underrated as a batsman simply because all the focus is always on his fielding.

As far as people rating Morgan as a supreme finisher, I just don't see it. Maybe I am missing something, can someone list some of his innings where he took England home like Bevan used to with Oz.

My number 7 Umar Akmal also has a better record than his no.7 Mathews and is definitely more of a batsman than him.
 
Both of the guys are underselling the opponent's team IMO.

Yuvraj in his peak was an amazing one day player. There wasn't a better finisher than him. Gayle could dismantle even the best of bowlers. I remember how he bullied Brett Lee in T20 2009 World Cup.

Zing's middle order is amazing though. Ricky Ponting is a modern great, Martin Crowe was a good batsman, Yuvraj Singh at his peak was amazing, Morgan's very good and Matthews is a great finisher.

IMO Crappy's playing Umar Akmal too low, he's a ridiculous talent and should be played above. Steve Waugh wasn't that great of a ODI Batsmen.

Although Oram as Crappy's fourth bowler is bit of a surprise.
 
I just think the odds are stacked against players who are not technically sound, against quality bowlers. Relentless quality bowling forces such players to make mistakes.

Gayle's not an idiot, he can be watchful when he wants to be, but he plays too many high risk shots and I can't imagine anyone doing that consistently against consistent high quality bowling.

And I keep coming back to this -- Oram is not a 4th bowler. I would have him as half my fifth bowler, if he was in my team.

Mushtaq averages 33 and Jayasuriya 37 or 38. There's going to be some serious plundering going on between overs 20-40.
 
zing said:
I just think the odds are stacked against players who are not technically sound, against quality bowlers. Relentless quality bowling forces such players to make mistakes.

Gayle's not an idiot, he can be watchful when he wants to be, but he plays too many high risk shots and I can't imagine anyone doing that consistently against consistent high quality bowling.

And I keep coming back to this -- Oram is not a 4th bowler. I would have him as half my fifth bowler, if he was in my team.

Mushtaq averages 33 and Jayasuriya 37 or 38. There's going to be some serious plundering going on between overs 20-40.
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I already said it is high risk-reward strategy with my openers. One that has been rewarded since 96 WC. SL won that cup with similar openers, Oz won subsequent ones with someone like Gilly at top and finally India won with Sehwag going for lather for every ball.

Having players like Flower and Waugh to fall back in the middle allows me to play both these at the top.

I don't remember a good ODI team which had as pedestrian openers as yours does.

Oram over 153 innings has bowled 1145 overs, an average of 7.61 overs per match

Shoib Akhtar over 162 innings has bowled an average of 7.98 overs per match

Hardly any difference there.

A fifth bowler is someone like Mathews - who has an average of 5.83 overs per innings he has bowled in - with many innings he has not bowled at all...

Besides both Bracken and Johnson got an easy ride in the greatest ODI side of all time hence their high averages. You might as well start claiming Lehmann as a better batsmen as well than many others owing to his higher average.
 
KM said:
Both of the guys are underselling the opponent's team IMO.

Yuvraj in his peak was an amazing one day player. There wasn't a better finisher than him. Gayle could dismantle even the best of bowlers. I remember how he bullied Brett Lee in T20 2009 World Cup.

Zing's middle order is amazing though. Ricky Ponting is a modern great, Martin Crowe was a good batsman, Yuvraj Singh at his peak was amazing, Morgan's very good and Matthews is a great finisher.

IMO Crappy's playing Umar Akmal too low, he's a ridiculous talent and should be played above. Steve Waugh wasn't that great of a ODI Batsmen.

Although Oram as Crappy's fourth bowler is bit of a surprise.
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I wrote in my write up that he can be promoted when required
 
Pretty much spent a day thinking about this one. Could go either way and just went with my gut in that zing just has a balanced side and his side should win if they play out Waqar.
 
crappycraperson said:
I already said it is high risk-reward strategy with my openers. One that has been rewarded since 96 WC. SL won that cup with similar openers, Oz won subsequent ones with someone like Gilly at top and finally India won with Sehwag going for lather for every ball.

Having players like Flower and Waugh to fall back in the middle allows me to play both these at the top.

I don't remember a good ODI team which had as pedestrian openers as yours does.

Oram over 153 innings has bowled 1145 overs, an average of 7.61 overs per match

Shoib Akhtar over 162 innings has bowled an average of 7.98 overs per match

Hardly any difference there.

A fifth bowler is someone like Mathews - who has an average of 5.83 overs per innings he has bowled in - with many innings he has not bowled at all...

Besides both Bracken and Johnson got an easy ride in the greatest ODI side of all time hence their high averages. You might as well start claiming Lehmann as a better batsmen as well than many others owing to his higher average.
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It's a bit ridiculous trying to convince people that Oram is a good pick because he bowls as many overs as Shoaib on average. It only tells you that NZ were strapped for bowlers.

Bracken was excellent at his peak. Who is Johnson? Why are you talking about him?
 
zing said:
It's a bit ridiculous trying to convince people that Oram is a good pick because he bowls as many overs as Shoaib on average. It only tells you that NZ were strapped for bowlers.

Bracken was excellent at his peak. Who is Johnson? Why are you talking about him?
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I am not trying to get people to overestimate Oram. The point about over per innings was to illustrate that he does not play as a fifth bowler for his national side. Johnson thing I got confused due to other draft match.

Anyway looks like you are gonna take this. bah
 
AldoRaine18 said:
Please forward this in the man thread. Thanks. My vote goes to Zing.

While Crappy has an amazing pair of openers and a great opening bowler in Waqar who could easily run through the side, I think Zing's team is more balanced and not top heavy like Crappy's. Chandimal wouldn't last 2 overs in front of Waqar, but Fleming is the kind of player you need to play out a great threat like Younis. I can see him and Ponting building the innings at a good pace and laying a good foundation for the like of Yuvi and others to finish it nicely.

Crappy's batting is not bad, and Jayasuriya can well get them to 200 in 30 overs on his day, but then, Zing has great variety in his attack that would not give them a lot of room for error. He doesn't have a player like Ponting who can play risk free cricket without slowing down the run rate. Wing Zing's bowling continuously putting pressure and part timers like Yuvi who can strike crucial blows in an uner pressure situation, Crappy's team might not be able to chase if Zing sets a high target.
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zing leads 9-7 now
 
Once again I pmed Aldo to vote and he voted against me. Let the cock rot in newbies!
 
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